Why aren't we talking about resistant TB w/ homeless?

[mntleo2]

...I used to work in transitional housing in Seattle and it was a given we workers could come in contact and possibly contract TB. With Bobbie's need for links, I began to search my public hospital's website for more information on TB and found plenty of information about clinics aimed at the homeless. However, this is a resistant strain of Tuberculosis that is not responding to the regular treatments like it used to do ~ and they are not discussing that at all. I had worked with people who had it and with all I was also told this TB was rampant in the homeless population. This is an "open secret" with the Health Department, homeless advocates, and shelter workers.

As I said in a post from yesterday, *don't* blame the homeless for this epidemic among their population. If we had decent housing for all, it would not be so bad, if at all. If healthcare was available for all, we could have caught this earlier. We cannot expect shelter workers to become doctors and know if a shelter recipient is infected, and even if they could, what are they supposed to do? Throw them out as we used to do with the lepers of old?

What does contracting this resistant TB mean? Well for beginners, it is not spread by touch, but a cough or breathing in close quarters can spread it, which is why shelters are breeding grounds. Family members or roommates can contract it. Infrequent sexual contact does not seem to spread it. If it is resistant to antibiotics the *only* other way to stop it from spreading and treat is being in an isolated "clean" room for months and months, maybe even years. If you survive that isolation because about all they can do is treat the symptoms not the disease, then you will come out testing TB positive for the rest of your life.

However, according to a public nurse I spoke with over 6 years ago in 2005, she said it is not a matter of IF this will spread to the general population, it is WHEN. She also said that few if any hospitals have these isolation rooms because they are too expensive to build and the cost of keeping someone (even one person) in there is beyond expensive. As a matter of fact the public hospital here, even though they know what is going on have none.

Therefore they know these people are out there, many on the streets from homelessness and not being treated or isolated. And Goddess forbid if we isolate them in a clean, warm place to recover (if they can)! They are HOMELESS, they don't deserve that help! This is why they are homeless in the first place, doncha know! So let them suffer on the streets, up to now nothing has affected the upper classes, so, "Nothing to see here, just move along ..."

TB is not always obvious when it first hits. A persistent cough develops that is "productive" meaning that it produces sputum. However any cold, flu, and many other diseases have similar coughs. It is not until blood is also coughed up (which can also indicate lung cancer and other things) comes the time it alerts medical personnel that something more is happening and they test for TB. If you have this TB at this stage, you have already exposed others who live with you and possibly others. Some people do not develop TB after exposure but carry the bug for the rest of their lives (my mother was one of those because her brother had it), and they test positive for the rest of their lives.

Ignoring this strain of TB is a direct and quite obvious indication about hatred and ignoring of the poor because it is not even considered worthy of a hospital web page, much less taking steps now to stop it from spreading. After all the homeless are "throwaway" people, who cares, right?

You should care. We should have learned from MRSA, which is now suddenly something to panic about because it is in the general population. Well this strain of TB is something that not only can kill you, but even if it doesn't, it requires months and months of treatment and isolation. Besides the obvious indication about the terrible need for a decent public option health plan for all, it is something that should be discussed because it is an epidemic waiting to happen.

As I also said in my comment link above, do you think this strain will say, "Oh there's a middle class person, I think I will just pass them up and jump on that homeless women over there?"

It is beyond time.

Cat in Seattle

Copyright Peoplesing.org 2011 Reprinted with full permission

[sudopod]

1. Kick. nt

[Divernan]

68. Outside of medical professionals, 99% of people do not know what MRSA is.

As in, what you don't know can kill you.
I just completed a course on infectious diseases, including MRSA. This and the other bacteria we studied are constantly, if slowly mutating. Latest cases have been resistant to all known antibiotics. As my professor explained it, nature constantly battles to overcome obstacles in its path. So this bacteria/superbug has, since the 1960's, managed to overcome all of the miracle drugs thrown at this disease. The call is out for pharmaceutical companies to come up with new antibiotics, and some are being tested now - but are not yet proven effective or available.

That acronym MRSA stands for Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus. Too many big words to continue reading? Welcome to the undereducated world of Americans who have next to zip understanding of science. As Clint Eastwood would say, "Are you feeling lucky?" If so, go watch Dancing With the Stars or a NASCAR race - and don't stretch your mind to read the following and then doing your own research on the web. Like researching the precautions to take to protect you and your loved ones from this and other super bugs.

MRSA has spread from infecting hospital patients (Hospital Acquired MRSA) to infecting nursing homes & other long term care facilities, locker rooms, & the community at large: healthy children, athletes, prisoners, military recruits, etc.
Diagnosis Synopsis
Skin and soft tissue infections (SSTIs) including cellulitis, abscesses, impetigo, folliculitis, and furunculosis can all be caused by infection with Staphylococcus aureus, including methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA). Recent studies report the increasing incidence of MRSA within the community (community-associated MRSA, or CA-MRSA) as compared to 10 years ago when MRSA was primarily limited to hospital-acquired infections. In most parts of the United States, over 50% of community-associated S. aureus are MRSA. Hence, S. aureus infections and MRSA are becoming synonymous.

MRSA was first identified in 1961, shortly after the introduction of methicillin. Since that time, MRSA has widely been recognized as an important agent of disease in hospitals, nursing homes, and other long-term care facilities. Beginning in the 1990s, however, outbreaks of MRSA were recognized among healthy children, athletes, prisoners, military recruits, and intravenous drug users in the community at large. Most of those with MRSA infections lacked "traditional" MRSA risk factors, such as exposure to the health care system.

The most common manifestation of CA-MRSA infections are skin and subcutaneous infections. Many infections are attributed by patients as spider bites, although an exposure to a spider is typically not recalled by patients. MRSA skin infections occur in patients of all ages and among people with no "traditional" risk factors, or even recently described risk factors. Clearly, any person, regardless of background or exposures, can acquire a CA-MRSA infection.

Previously all CA-MRSA isolates retained susceptibility to vancomycin, linezolid, daptomycin, and trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole (TMP-SMX). Most isolates were susceptible to clindamycin and tetracyclines, although susceptibility varied by geography. However, mutated forms of MRSA have recently proven resistant to all known antibiotics.

While CA-MRSA has a propensity for causing skin and soft tissue infections, it can also cause more severe and invasive disease syndromes including necrotizing pneumonia, empyema, necrotizing fasciitis, pyomyositis, septic thrombophlebitis with pulmonary embolization, osteomyelitis, and severe sepsis syndrome, among other manifestations. "Spider bite"-like skin infections and the more severe syndromes may be due in large part to a specific exotoxin present in many strains of CA-MRSA, Panton-Valentine leukocidin (PVL). PVL, a virulence factor that is lethal to neutrophils, has also been implicated in cases of invasive CA-MRSA infections such as necrotizing pneumonia.

[WinkyDink]

132. I don't agree; all those hand-sanitizers aren't bought for no reason. MRSA is the reason. 100,000

deaths annually from hospital-acquired infections have brought MRSA into America's consciousness.

[L0oniX]

2. Not having a single payer health care system is going to kill us all.

[mntleo2]

6. Yeppers and when it begins to kill thousands well ...

...all they will do is blame the sick for spreading it instead of learning a damn thing about the terrible need for a Public Option.

Lord, it scares me and makes me mad!

Love
Cat

[bobbolink]

8. Shoving people into over-crowded shelters has STARTED this!

Unless and until progressives, liberals, Dems, and socialists begin to understand that accepting SHELTERS as a permanent solution to homelessness is WRONG, ALL of you will be facing the consequences of this wrongful and harmful societal issue!

[louslobbs]

11. We have been constantly warned by people like bobbolink and others who understand the reality of

being "poor" about what our futures will look like if we continue to ignore the reality of what they say. If we do not listen now, then when? We have been warned again, most of us will be facing more harsh realities if we continue to believe that it cannot happen to us.

It is happening right now my friends and unless we band together, all of us, and fight, we can look forward to a future, that we all saw coming, but did nothing to stop because "it could never happen to me". It's happening and it's happening faster since many Republicons have taken over state houses and judgeships in many of our states.

Shelters are not and should not be a permanent solution to "house" the homeless. There are many abandoned buildings across this once great nation of ours that could be turned into low income housing or places of refuge for those with little to nothing, and nowhere to live. It's not difficult to do. Just stop giving the millionaires and billionaires the free tax cut bonus money, cut the war budget in half, and start building studio apartments in hundreds of abandoned buildings around the country and provide the basic needs.

Is it too much to ask for one bedroom, a kitchen and a bath in a private place with a door that locks for safety and privacy? The 400 billionaires in this country could do it on their own if they wanted to, but money and power are more important to them than the needs and suffering of their own people. It's not hard to care and help one another, all you have to do is place the importance of people over power and money.

Together, we could force the changes necessary, divided, we are in for more of the same until all of us are engulfed into this, forced into poverty by a government bought and paid for by the rich and powerful.

As we speak, Paul Ryan is trying to get a big piece of what the rich and powerful have wanted for years, (on top of everything else they've stolen) they want to steal medicare and medicaid. Ryan's budget wants to, as usual, cut needed social programs for people suffering and just making it, and give another large tax cut bonus (in the Trillions) to the millionaires and billionaires.

If we do not stop this continuous attack on the majority (the rest of us),We the People, the millionaires and billionaires will take it all including Social Security as more and more people suffer, lose jobs and can't afford to see a doctor.

That piece of shit voucher idea is just another Republicon scam, those vouchers won't be worth the paper they're printed on if no one will insure you (and the big insurance cartels won't) so what's the use in the phony voucher scam? That's all on top of, having no place to live, no job and no prospects for a better future. So tell me, how's that going for all of us?

Past behavior of the Republicons, is a good indicator of what they have in store for the majority of us in their warped vision of the future and if we don't or won't stop them, the future looks very ugly and bleak for most of We the People over "Them the Corporations", the millionaires and billionaires.
Lou

[MedleyMisty]

14. I am experiencing a lot of rage towards Americans at the moment

We are going to drive ourselves over the cliff because we're scared of the cliff. And what's more, when anyone points out the cliff to us we attack them.

It's like I'm imprisoned on a bus being driven by four year olds, and there's no escape, and I try to tell them about the cliff but they won't listen and they don't care and they're going to take me over the cliff with them and there's nothing I can do.

We have the power. We can stop the bus. We can wrest the wheel away from the two year olds driving it. But the four year old passengers are all in the way, saying there is no cliff, you're stupid for saying there's a cliff, we have to go over the cliff because the only other option is for us to all get guns and kill each other, there's nothing we can do, accept the cliff, accept it while denying it, and I'm scared of the two year olds. What if they try to hit me? I'd rather go over the cliff and die than get hit by a two year old.

Fucking cowards, killing us all.

[louslobbs]

23. I hear ya, you have an excellent point, but the longer people live in denial, in their fantasy world

they cannot see what others are clearly pointing out to them. Many cannot admit to themselves that this country is falling apart for the majority of us and if they ignore that, they think it will go away or it will just pass them by. I'm like you, I'd rather go down fighting, than to have died at their hands without even trying to.
Lou

[AndyTiedye]

39. Not Sure Where You Want Us To Go With This

We have the power. We can stop the bus. We can wrest the wheel away from the two year olds driving it. But the four year old passengers are all in the way, saying there is no cliff, you're stupid for saying there's a cliff, we have to go over the cliff because the only other option is for us to all get guns and kill each other

Are you calling us all cowards for not embracing the option of "All getting guns and killing each other"?

[mntleo2]

44. Most of us are "peace and love" people we are just mad

...Where we want to go is together to make it better. To write our congresscritters when they talk about cutting more services for the poor. When they speak of us as if it is our fault, as if we "chose" to be poor when most of us worked our asses off.

Poverty is an instituion. It is based on racism. sexism, ageism, and classism where the upper income people expect us to hold them up by paying more in taxes, working for nothing, and not being considered "contributing" because we do not have money no matter how hard we work. If people just understand that things like TB are a symptom that is just waiting to consume not only the poor, but move on to the upper income classes because they make the poor "invisbible" and blame them rather than listen.

It would not cost a thing just to stop and take a good look as to why there is poverty and then speak up about it. It is not because someone "chose" it, it is because they're part of an institution.

Cat in Seattle

[HillbillyBob]

65. DEMENTED 4 yrs olds .

[AndyTiedye]

140. Demented 4 Year Olds with Uzis

[mntleo2]

16. OK this is mean but ...

... (with hand raised in the Spock salute) ...

May Paul Ryan and his ilk ALL get stuck in a broken elevator with a TB carrier who is in DC lobbying because he is a victim of their "die quickly" plan ...

:evilgrin: :evilgrin:

:spank: :spank:

[louslobbs]

22. I don't find that mean at all, in fact, maybe it would open up his closed mind. And if not, maybe

he would die quickly like he wants most of us to do.
Lou

[999998th word]

59. Could we include the Koch clan as well

Shame on me.I didnt think of this.

Double shame on me,I shouldnt take this much delight from this idea.

-Those people are PURE EVIL.They dont care as long as it doesnt affect

them.This should be brought out when H.C. issues are discussed-at the

top levels.They are smug selfish greedy assholes.

Edited because I'm pissed





!

[HillbillyBob]

66. We need to make it affect them all, those gated communities

aren't the bastions of security they think they are.

[bobbolink]

70. Not if they hire servants, and not if they ever venture out at all.

Like polluting the planet, harming poor people will eventually come back to bite them.

Sadly, most of us will be dead by then.

[mntleo2]

103. LOL! n/t

[AndyTiedye]

142. Where ARE All These Abandoned Buildings?

I sure don't see them in San Francisco or anywhere nearby.

There are some abandoned subdivisions in the middle of the Central Valley,
but they are in the middle of nowhere, with no stores, no transit, no nothing.
You'd need a car, and lots of money for gas.

[HillbillyBob]

64. That is what the rich bastards want, to be rid of us useless eaters

Wonder what they will eat when all the farms are dead because there are none or few of us to grow food.

[Recursion]

133. Unfortunately this is the kind of problem Medicare and Medicaid suck at solving also (nt)

[leftstreet]

3. Working class people living on the edge don't like to talk about homelessness

[mntleo2]

4. Yeah a man on Kos is talking about that right now ...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/21/969078/-Homeless.

He is an older unemployed worker that the Kos community has tried to help for months. He said it is hard to believe it is going to happen until it does. :cry: :cry: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[bobbolink]

31. Then they best not complain when it happens to them.

"Solidarity".

Yeah, right. :eyes:

[felix_numinous]

5. Kick for public health issue.

[MineralMan]

7. We are now. Thanks for bringing it up.

This is a scary thing, and is not being handled well.

[inna]

9. K&R. It feels at times as if we are descending into (a form of) fascism.

When are people going to wake up? Or *are* they, before it's too late?

[bobbolink]

10. As far as this one goes, people *can't* wake up until they know the facts.

The facts, in a lot of ways, are being hidden from us concerning homelessness.

Cat is doing a great service by sharing this info with DU!

Now, it is up to us to spread it further!

[HillbillyBob]

67. The 'sane' folks will not wake up til the Ovens start

gassing homeless, gays and blacks.
I am long term hiv. In 94 after I FINally got help to get off the streets the apartment I moved into was in a building with a lot of Auschwitz survivors who told me what pre nazi Germany was like and when the Nazis started their campaign. They also said the US in the 90s was like mid 20s Germany with the hate spew etc and that the US was headed squarely into a second go at that horror.
For years I have kept a close eye on the hate groups, even 'joining' long enough to get a good if unwanted look inside. These religious groups are even scarier than the nazis were. Now we have the rich funding them.
Keep guns, move out of the cities and group with others for community and mutual protection. I have been targeted by both the jezzos and the nazi types.
In 83 a group of kristianists targeted my partner and myself and our home.

It started with leviticus quotes , then name calling then nailing(not tape or tacks) Leviticus quotes to my door, tire slashing on and on this went for months the pigs told me it was my problem. One night a coworker of mine who was black came to the door looking for shelter from her abusive husband.
That really set the bastards off, a bit later a rock came through the front window(a stained glass that I had just finished repairing) with a note that said "Its bad enough you godam faggots moved in here now you gotta bring niggers too!' "get out or die'. few minutes later a I could see fire light.
They had put a cross against the house and were attempting to set it alight.
I told them to get the f off my lawn...they repeated wht was in the not. and started throwing rocks. By this time from all the previous harassment I had started keeping (and still do) a loaded 12 g pump behind the front door. Iused it and had it loaded with bacon rind and rock salt. The first shot in the air the next 3 in their asses as they ran away. My partner had called the cops when the rock came in..they took another hour and a half to show up. then wrot em a ticket for shooting in the city limits and told me that 'faggots do not have rights in Montg Al'. Another neighbor took my side on it and told the montgomery al pig that she knew who they were and that I was right since some of the thugs were her sons and that she had taught them better .
I left Nazibama shortly after and will never set foot there again unarmed.

[raccoon]

93. Good gosh. I'm glad you had the weapon. nt

[mntleo2]

107. OMG! ..

...Oh Hon, I wish I could hug you! I have a relative who is also HIV positive and it is not fun. She keeps it a deep dark secret because she is understandably afraid of what could happen to her if anyone found out.

I had Holocaust survivor friends too and they told me that what is happening now is what they saw in the beginning of their nightmare. The religious fervor, the punitive laws, the twisted media, the dehumanizing of certain classes of people, the fascism disguised as "for the people", all of it we are seeing here.

I cried when I read your account HillybillyBob. I cannot imagine the hell you have lived, but I do want to tell you you are now a hero of mine to have survived it and stood up for yourself and I am sure for others as well because of your bravery. Eldridge Cleaver said that he did not like violence, but there comes a time after doing everything else there may come a time to "Burn Baby Burn!". I am a pacifist and for a long time I was shocked at that, but now in my old age I am wondering if maybe he was right ...



:pals: :pals: :cry: :cry:

Cat in Seattle

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. Such a scary thought. I was already worried about MRSA, and now this.

[999998th word]

60. They dont like to even diagnose MRSA

unless you have good insurance.,especially if you work in health care.

Can be expensive to treat also time off work,and WC claims.

Co-worker had it. WC lawyers told her she got it @ the grocery

store.denied she got it @ work. We had several residents with it+she was

a bath aide .One+ months off work chronic etc.She lost her case.I've seen this happen

often enough.If thats how they handle MRSA issues,I fear they will try to keep

this on the QT.Scary shit.

[louslobbs]

13. It always amazes me what gets the attention around here and what seems to get very little attention.

Almost every time a post references the poor, including several that I have started, they just don't seem to concern most people. I guess if you don't talk about it, then it doesn't exist and it can't happen to you. Denial is very big in America, in fact, some people stay in denial as they are losing their jobs, foreclosed on, and can't get unemployment. Even as they are looking into trash cans for objects to recycle, they're still in denial, this is only temporary, this won't last for them. How many people have told themselves these stories to make themselves feel better, to not be on of "them"? As long as we ignore what is happening around us and live in some form of denial, then others (corporations, millionaires and billionaires) who own the government, will control where this country moves into the future, and just "where or if", you fit in. Good Luck.
Lou

[bobbolink]

15. We are the Lepers of Today, and "progressives" can't admit that they have a bias

against poverty.

[louslobbs]

24. Don't they see, those who are suffering in poverty are us and we are them. They can shove their

biases up their asses and hopefully awaken from their denial. They think they're better than? Wait until the Republicons continue to force their craziness on this country and those who thought they were "better than" get a dose of that reality.......sorta like the union members now, they're coming for everyone who is not like them and that means YOU! those who think they're better than and are in denial, they're coming for YOU TOO! Don't think so? Stay in denial and suffer the consequences of your own silence. We are all brothers and sisters, we should be fighting for each other, for a better future and a better country and a better world. We are all in this together, except for the 2% at the top who with their bought and paid for government, are killing all of our hopes and dreams and futures by manipulating government to do their bidding to the detriment of the rest of us. First they came for the poor and I did nothing because I was not poor, then they came for the middle class and the unions and............?
Lou

[louslobbs]

25. If what you say is true, then what happens when we all become "Lepers" to the millionaires and

billionaires? What happens when their bias turns around and bites them on their asses and "those people" become them? That's what's happening, and those in denial and their biases, will be singing a different tune when they're forced to stand on a soup line, or line up at a food bank, or suffer curable diseases because they can't see a doctor. I hope they wake up before then, but it doesn't look good at this point.
Lou

[upi402]

17. Hospital iso rooms need negative air pressure

so airborn 'whatever' doesn't exit the room when the door is opened. Maybe the vented air needs to be treated or evacuated where nobody will breathe it, but it should not be an expensive solution to isolation to a hospital. Must be that the space is more valuable if used for other -More profitable uses.

[bobbolink]

18. So, it is better to look for "solutions" for hospitals and cures for TB *rather* than to stop

crowding people into shelters????????

What *is* this love affair with shelters?

[upi402]

20. nope! not saying that at all

i agree with you 100%

but there's no opposition party to corporatism, so treatment of disease and risk mitigation is about all we got

[bobbolink]

29. I'm glad that wasn't what you were intending to say. "treatment of disease and risk mitigation is

about all we got."

I don't believe that, and here is why.

Gay people have been rousing the rabble for Gay Rights and have been succeeding.

Madison has shown us that when people decide ENOUGH is ENOUGH, that raising their voices together gets results.

Just throwing up our hands and saying "this is about all we got" is a sell-out. The REAL problem is that middleclass people won't take up this issue, and MAKE an issue of it!

When a majority of you decide to do that, THEN there will be some turnaround on this.

Until then.... good luck on avoiding the diseases coming down the pike.

[upi402]

35. jesus

you have no idea what i've done as an activist over the decades. you asume wrongly twice now

but thanks for the condescension

[bobbolink]

37. Jesus fought for poor people. He didn't give up and say "That's all we got now".

You said those words, so don't talk about me making assumptions. All we have on the tubes is WORDS.

There is a LOT people can be doing now to end homelessness, but it isn't a priority.

[upi402]

42. so what have you done

you seem determined to have a self-righteous pissin match

[maryf]

50. Bobbie has been a tireless advocate for homeless

she writes letters, she calls, she writes and posts, she's homeless.... She's tired of having to defend her very righteous stance. that doesn't take away from all you do, by the way!

[mntleo2]

52. Bobbie IS one of the few who speaks for many ...

...our bane is that nobody ever wants to talk about it, even when things like this are brought up.

[bobbolink]

56. It is against the rules to make things personal, which you have done, so STOP. NOW.

[Forkboy]

57. She does a ton on this issue. Probably more than anyone here on DU.

[999998th word]

62. It should be.It wouldnt take much of a shove for many

of us ,to be there.I've worried that often.+try to convince others

'them' can turn into' us' in no time.We are all in the same boat.

[skepticscott]

63. If he had wanted

Jesus could have made all poor people into financially comfortable people witb a wave of his hand. But he didn't. Why would that be, I wonder?

Bad example. Really.

[bobbolink]

69. Maybe we are supposed to learn to love "the other"?

But, I have a feeling that no matter how I reply, it won't be accepted.

Have at it.

[skepticscott]

73. If you try to use Jesus as an example

of something that will hold up under rational scrutiny, you're right. And if you're trying to say that Jesus "fought for poor people" without actually doing anything that would take them out of the ranks of poor people (even though he easily could have), or if you're saying that he was just testing the rest of us to see if we would learn to help others more than he did, and was willing to let poor people suffer and die if we didn't pass his test and learn his lesson, then yeah. I don't accept that.

[bobbolink]

77. So, its like charity today.... just hand out a few goodies to a few people, that help for a day or

two, and let the rest of the people fall by the wayside as they will?

What he did was to tell people to PUT POOR PEOPLE FIRST, which the vaunted Democrats aren't able to do today, and to make conditions better for poor people.

THAT JUSTICE is much more important. It places the emphasis on ALL TIME and ALL PLACES, rather than the very few he could personally touch.

But, I hear your objection to any of the beliefs, and that is your perogative. Whether you agree with him or not, as a Dem and a "progressive" it is still your duty to care first for poor people.

[skepticscott]

85. Uh, no...it's not like charity today

Jesus/God could eliminate all need, want, poverty, hunger, disease, etc. with a wave of the hand. FOREVER. Jesus could have done the same 2000 years ago. Right? Then there would be no need to care for poor people, because there would be none. Right? Why are you straining so hard at such a silly false equivalency?

[bobbolink]

88. I got from all your posts to me (why are you following me around?) that it is all silly to you.

I got it.

Your concern and caring is sooo very touching.

Just don't expect our votes.

Have a nice campaign.

[mntleo2]

100. The problem is not what Jesus said, it is his followers who ignore it

...And I am not so sure of his being able to just "wave his hand" and all is better. If God were to "wave a wand" all we would get is a world full of people who are nothing but hypocrites. All you have to do is watch a spoiled entitled brat to immediately see that because they get everything handed to them on a silver platter, they are selfish, ignorant and really do not "get it" in life. I believe in life's lessons and perhaps this is why there is no equality on earth ~ especially because of the ones with all the toys who refuse to practice what they profess to believe.

Still life's lessons should be not only for the poor as some sort of practice ground, just so the rich can feel like they are actually caring, not some spoiled brat who expects to be patted on the head for their "giving". Especially IF you profess to have a faith, as many of these entitled do that SUPPOSEDLY includes Jesus. He was not the only sage who taught about taking care of one's bretheren, The Buddha did, the roots of Judaism, Islam, all are a call for sharing with the poor, including the Hindus, Native Americans.

And I mean "sharing *not* "giving". Many "get" that "what you do to the least of those, you do to me (and while many interpret this is God being the one hurt, it can also be interpreted as "me" meaning "myself"). These teachings are in modern physics, "for each and every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction", it is in the germ world that "what affects you, affects me", in the study of nature whose animals use democracy all the time in the "flock" or "school" mentality. The truth is this teaching is about as sensible and scientific as any math formula. It is about sharing and not hogging all the world's resources for yourself while the rest starve, it is about care for the sick so YOU don't get sick, it is about feeding the starving so they do not get desperate and hurt you for hoarding resources, it is about taking care of an incurable form of TB so YOU don't get it, etc.

The truth is the poor have far superior survival skills and coping skills than any middle or upper income person could ever have. They could teach the rest of us how to do it IF they were not so invisible. It wasn't a poor person who blew up the Oklahoma Federal Building, it was not a poor person who shot up a high school for upper income kids, serila killers almost all who come from "good" homes and you know why? Because those people do not know how to handle stress. A person in poverty handles betrayal, cruelty, invisibility, overt racism and sexism, and classism every day. They know how to handle it. In spite of how desperate they may be, they still operate with a sense of community, sharing what little they have, helping those who cannot help themselves.

If there is a God I am sure He/She would not want a bunch of spoiled entitled brats as a majority. And at this time the poor are the majority, not the rich and middle classes combined. I sure don't like the way the upper classes act and what they do that hurts others without even thinking about it. It is that spoiled, selfish entitlement that screws up this world. It is the ones on the receiving end who practice the teaching of the sages. The ones that keep this world alive, *not* kill it with the selfish elitist attitudes as is happening on their watch. Not very Godly and a lesson NOT learned for the upper class.

So waving a magic wand is not the solution. Getting some intelligence and a little sense after listening to the sages and looking at the practicality of what they teach IS intelligent and practical. Thus the spreading of TB that will eventually along with the other things poisen us with a few people's entitled hubris, which is a lesson that well ...maybe we need to learn ~ and if we don't, maybe we don't deserve to survive.

My 2 cents ....
Cat in Seattle

[AndyTiedye]

40. We Still Need to Do Something for the People Who Already Have Resistant TB

[mntleo2]

45. Yes and they are too busy spending it all on wars instead

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[readmoreoften]

19. Because we're not talking about the homeless. & when we do it's in moralizing tones of individualism

The homeless are treated as drug addicts and fuck ups who personally failed. The difference between Democrats and Republicans on this issue is that Democrats treat the homeless with "compassion" while the Republicans would gas them.

The reality is: 1 in 50 people are homeless at the national level. In my home state, the numbers are 1 in 20. (No I don't have a link for that, I read it on a link here from a national homeless advocacy network.) We have a systemic problem. But dealing with a systemic problem means going further than GOTV for Obama. So don't expect any solutions from the Democratic platform. They're not really possible.

[mntleo2]

21. Sadly I think you are right

...when in fact many are children and most adults are quite sober. Believe me as a low income McJob worker for all my adult life, I got plenty of "failure" lectures from punitive snobby social workers and family members.

I suspect that those of us paying attention to this article don't need a link. Because either we are living it, volunteering with it, or working for a wage with it. We know the stats. As someone says on the comments here, many on the edge don't want to address it because they are scared they are next. They refuse to see that the problem with that denial is that ignoring it could be fatal.

Poverty is not a sexy issue. What is kind of sad/funneh is, for some weird reason, Limpdick's dummas ignorant rants, or what Glen Feckless said yesterday IS "sexy". Who cares what those idiots said when right under their noses is something that could KILL us ~ and maybe them as well?

Oh. Oh. That's right ..."Don't notice that homeless person over there. Nothing to see here, just move along ..."

AAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bobbolink]

28. You are right! The "Personal Problem" rather than "The Societal Problem"!

AND, that is what is said on DU all the time.... all kinds of "solutions" are offered, because it is all seen as a "Personal "problem"

How do we change that erroneous perception?

[Cleita]

26. I've been talking about TB and other communicable

diseases that spread easily among the homeless and disadvantaged since homelessness became an institution back in the eighties. I tried to appeal to those cold of heart people's sense of self-preservation that those diseases can spread to them and their families as well. Apparently, no one cares. Maybe it will take an epidemic of plague proportions to make people, who can do something about the problem, do it.

[GameOn]

36. I was in a liquor store a while few wks back and the lady that worked their had on a mask. For some

reason TB was the first thing that came to mind. I'm filled with mucus from a head cold I have and always thinks it could be TB. I always think the worse tho.

I wish Pharma would put as much effort into things like this as they seem to put in penis pills

[Cleita]

46. Big PhRMA are nothing more than a bunch of crooks.

I really wish we could regulate them more, maybe even make them non-profit.

[raouldukelives]

27. k&r

[louslobbs]

30. Allen Grayson said it very succinctly, they want certain people to "die quickly" those that they

feel are the "surplus population", don't deserve to live. Why does the Republican Party zealously pursue policies so obviously counter to the best interests of ordinary Americans? I've always thought, that exposing the ugly truth about the Republican Party's diabolical plot to replace constitutional democracy with an oligarchic, fascist, theocracy that only includes those who "believe", millionaires, billionaires and government/corporations would help to open the eyes of those sleeping. Just look at what the Republicons in charge of several states are trying to force upon the people while they have the power. Their actions speak louder than my words. Are they not pushing for dictatorship type rule rather than governing? Just look at their actions and ignore their words and you will see the reality of their plan against the majority of Americans. What does it look like in reality? A constitutional Democracy, being forced by Republicons, into an oligarch, fascist theocracy. They won't waiver from this plan unless they are stopped and as we've seen in Wisconsin, when the people take to the streets, we have the real power to stop bad policy from being made into law. I hope we all wake up before it is too late.
Lou

[GameOn]

32. This has always been a fear of mine. But Bradley Manning has been forced to sleep naked. NT

[bobbolink]

33. So, that's the excuse now?

[mntleo2]

49. Of COURSE it's the excuse as is ...

...what insipid, idiotic thing Limpdick said the other day, that the First Lady did not wear the proper dress to an event, that the president flared his nostrils and appeared "rude" so he hurt his opponent's feelings, that somebody ran naked through a football game.


Sheesh Woman, doncha know there is more IMPORTANT news!

GameOn's succinct sarcasm is poignant. While Bradley Manning is suffering abuse,and yes it does have some far-reaching implications, it is sad that right under our noses is an epidemic just waiting to happen. Sadder that we cannot discuss poverty and the impact on the rest of society without a big sound of crickets when it can even KILL people not to discuss it.

Love
Cat

[dotymed]

53. I realize that there may be some sarcasm

in your post. I trust you care about Bradley Manning and the torture that he is enduring because of his audacity to attempt to get the truth out. I also think you are saying that this issue consumes a lot of our time while there are other pressing issues. Hell, I may be wrong about all of it.
The SAD fact is that in addition to the "beyond shameless" issue of homelessness and the herd mentality of refusing to address it because none of us want to join those ranks, (Bobbie, do you know how todays homelessness compares to that of The Great Depression?) Personally, I think we have been living through (still are) another Great Depression, with no end in sight. Anyway, these two seemingly unrelated issues; Bradley Manning and Homelessness are really not that separate.
America (China doesn't report theirs), has the largest Prison Population in the world, and it is growing. Of course not with the BIG criminals like the wealthy who are responsible for this Depression and their sycophants who stole America blind(er) through their ponzi schemes and overt pillaging of our economy. Instead we are (in addition to violent criminals) packing our prisons with people who use and/or sell drugs, have mental problems and can not afford to get treated, are so poor that they are, in effect, in debtors prison, etc..
What about the effect of this TB epidemic on them? They, like the homeless, are often imprisoned through little or no conscious fault of their own. Many (most(?)) are there because of the desperate circumstances they have found themselves in, due to poverty. Or. possibly their interpretation of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", does not coincide with that of an often tyrannical government. Even being labeled a "violent offender" does not necessarily mean they are violent. When a cop decides to beat the shit out of you, he has to make it appear on his report, that their was a good reason to use violence on this person and viola, a violent criminal is created just because his/her head bounced up too high as it was being smashed on the concrete.
The point I am trying to make is that the confinement in these way over-crowded prisons/jails is just as conducive (if not more so) than our homeless "shelters" to create an epidemic out of just one isolated case of this resistant strain of TB.
Many of these incarcerated citizens will eventually be released into society. Where are many of them going to end up in our wonderful economic times? Sadly, in homeless shelters, hoping to get that break (a job) that will allow them to progress with some sort of life. Of course, presently, the real criminals are ruining the country and living large. So, while they may not presently be at too much risk, as the epidemic increases to all walks of life, hey will just as helpless as we are. How sad....

[bobbolink]

71. I have come to the point because of the IGNORING of poverty and homelessness

that it IS the only issue I care about.

When the rest decide that it is important to take action on poverty and homelessness, then I can go back to caring about other issues.

As for Manning, I gave up on it when it was mentioned that he is not the FIRST nor the ONLY one to be treated in such a manner, yet there is NO broadening of this issue, and those who brought that up were soundly thrashed here.

Both of those things say volumes about where "progressives' are, and it isn't attractive.

When that changes, so will I.

Until then............... heap on the criticism. I truly do NOT care anymore.

[AndyTiedye]

83. It is Perilous to Draw Conclusions about "What Progressives Are" Based on Responses to Posts on DU

Poverty and homelessness may not get as many replies as some other topics,
but that is not because we don't care, it is because we don't disagree.

The topics that get the most replies are the controversial ones.

[bobbolink]

84. So, are you keeping a log then of how often homelessness is talked about on "progressive" radio, or

Rachel or any of the other heroes?

Seems to me that there are plenty of topics on DU that get "agreement", but they are repeated over and over and over anyway.

However, there ISN'T "agreement" on homelessness. It is common to see here not only erroneous and ignorant responses to poverty and homelessness, but some downright hateful responses.

Denial isn't a good "progressive" trait.

[dotymed]

91. Stick with it Bobbie.

I know it is a thankless task but dammit people DO have to wake-up sometime. It had better be sooner rather than later...

[bobbolink]

97. Thank you, dotymed. I appreciate that more than you know.

Yesterday I was listening to Jesse Jackson, and was inspired by his guests on this very topic. They blasted the churches, the seminaries, and our secular leaders for not doing what they KNOW is right on poverty, and urged everyone to keep holding their feet to the fire.

I can tell you that I hear a lot from the few here who are working on poverty issues that they, too, get so discouraged and want to just quit. I hear from poor people who have lost all hope and are just waiting to die. Those PMs and emails just tear my heart out.

We need people like you to join with us! We are gasping for breath.....

[bobbolink]

98. For the UMPTEENTH time I am listening to the Barber speech which Sapphire Blue posted here from time

to time:

http://www.unc.edu/law/povertycenter/audio/barber.mp3

I highly recommend it. Especially from about 46:

Protesters, Keep sounding the alarm!

Prophets and preachers keep declaring the truth, even, if like Martin, they don't listen to you at first!

I will OBJECT until Justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream!

We need YOUR voice, and we need YOUR support for our efforts.... it is will-breaking work.

thank you... :pals:

[mntleo2]

101. A-MEN Dotymed, sing it with us one more time now!

...Bobbie is saying that poverty and homelessness is not an individual choice and therefore lies the disagreements we all see when we talk about this. because the assumption each person in poverty "made a "choice" to be there, well that means all of them MUST have different reasons (or sometimes all stereotyped into one box, which ever is conveeeeeeenient)for others to "solve" as if we have not already "been there done that".

Poverty is hardly ever treated as what it is: an INSTITUTION based on racism, sexism, ageism, and classism. EVERY SINGLE UPPER CLASS PERSON benefits from the exploitation of the poor, from expecting them to "bring prices down" by working for nothing, to making them instant criminals because they cannot afford the law (think "car insurance" here, where a majority of MCjob workers have no bus transportation or live far from their work because they work odd hour/and weekend jobs, for instance), to to expecting them to take on twice the burden of even the middle class in the taxes they pay.

Poverty is also maintained for the heueuege Poverty Industry which rakes in millions, makes lovely tax breaks for the rich, but does little for the poor. Not only do these entitles hog all the government funding to hire themselves and their friends in 6 figure CEO-like positions. Then they employ and pay thousands of entitled to PRETEND THEY ARE GIVING SERVICES, while exploiting and living off their lower paid staff and volunteers. When in fact their "services" are demeaning, punitive, and paltry compared to what is being collected to "help" ~ and how the upper staff are not at all being "enabled" to profit off poverty. On the average a non-profit spends AT LEAST 10 X or 80% of their take on themselves using only 20% for the services they SAY they exist to do and this solves little ~ but hey they sure do create more entitled gatekeepers mandated not to "enable" the poor while standing in line for THEIR tax deductible handouts, which keeping people in poverty is supposedly not "enabling" for themselves.

I could go on, but Bobbie is a woman of few words and they don't call ME "Chatty Cathy" for nothing, what she is trying to express I hope you hear.

Hope this helps and enlightens!

Cat in Seattle

[dotymed]

131. Get this. In TN, the Food Stamp program

is administered by JP Morgan Inc.....wow

[WinkyDink]

134. Because there is money in the administering.

[dotymed]

135. Billions I am sure.

Just think of the interest they "earn" on the "money for the poor", besides the (I'm sure) huge administration costs they "earn." It is pathetic. Much like the Federal Reserve being a private entity who prints our money and then "loans" it to us for interest. Privatization is such a great thing for the wealthy. Once again proving: It is not what you know, but WHO you know....

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Javaman]

34. Thank you for posting this.

So many people in our society are cast aside as not being fellow humans.

When we fail to help our fellow citizens, we fail ourselves.

Yes, the homeless are citizens too.

[bobbolink]

72. Thank you, Javaman. It is time for ACTION!

[Starry Messenger]

38. k&r

[AndyTiedye]

41. Mistaking Despair for Apathy

Just because we don't know how to fix it doesn't mean we don't care.

[mntleo2]

43. Oh Hon ...

...poverty and homelessness IS a heueuege problem to solve all right. I never thought about it being despair. Yes, despair is something we all fight and sometimes it makes us ...tired. Lord knows I have felt like sitting down and never getting back up myself.

Take heart and do what you can. Just posting here is appreciated!

Love
Cat

[patrice]

47. Maybe because funding the fight against it is often bundled with money for family planning which

gets killed by phony "Pro" "Life" ers . . . ? And "we" wouldn't!! want!! anyone to know about that, so no!! discussion of resistant TB!!

[mntleo2]

48. Goddess forbid, oh NO, can't have that

Why maybe some elder coughing their lungs out because they have TB, MIGHT GET AN ABORTION.

I agree with Mike Malloy. These freaks are beyond help. While my own group (Progressives and liberals) are a fight, I gave up on those idiots a l-o-o-o-n-g time ago.

Cat

[maryf]

51. k&r

:hi:

[mntleo2]

54. Kick

:kick: :kick:

[L0oniX]

55. K & R

[L0oniX]

75. Repeat K & R ...cause this is really a major problem that could kill us all.

[Fire Walk With Me]

58. Superbacteria have been brewing for a while. No one cares until it's NIMBY.

Not In My Back Yard.

[skepticscott]

74. Politicians and public officials know that

they get no points and no credit for having the wisdom and foresight to address problems before they become serious, or for spending 1 dollar now to save 10 dollars in the future. They know that it does them far more good politically to let things reach crisis stage, and then try to manage them. Even if they do a crappy job, they get to look important and involved on the endless news coverage that any crisis draws. The electorate has only themselves to blame, because that's the kind of politics and politician we vote for.

[bobbolink]

78. I no longer give a flying fuck what politicians want or value. What is important is that once

people who call themselves "progressive" have information like this, it is incumbent upon them to PUSH for justice.

Even FDR said, "Make me." He wanted people to PUSH him.

For the life of me, I can't understand this attitude that if the politicians don't do it, then fuck it.

[skepticscott]

80. If you think our current crop of politicians

want us to "make them", then you're sadly deluded. They want us to vote for them, and then shut up.

And if you'd like to pay for all of the needed improvements to our public health infrastructure out of your own pocket, have at it. Or perhaps you'd like to pass the hat at the next progessives club meeting. Lacking that, nothing will get done until and unless politicians are on board, and they will only be on board with what gets them votes.

[bobbolink]

82. You're right. We poor people need to off ourselves and just get the fuck out of the way for the

the rest of the country.

Thanks for making that clear.

And PS.. when the rest of you want help on YOUR issues, don't come knocking on our door. We aren't home. And that includes the votes you want. Faggettaboutit

[skepticscott]

86. You've got your knickers in such a twist

that you can't even understand a simple point, and instead feel the need to project things onto me that I never even remotely implied. You'll not accomplish a lot with that attitude, but good luck anyway.

[bobbolink]

87. I got your point loud and clear, It is all foreordained, and the UNpoor aren't going to be bothered

no matter what.

Just don't keep telling me that I am "fooling myself". I understand all too well the current climate.

UNCONCERN.

If YOU were in that position, I don't imagine your knickers would be all nicely pressed.

But that's OK, we poor folk get it.. we are ALONE. Just don't expect our votes.

[AndyTiedye]

89. Push for it How?

Nobody listens to us, or hadn't you noticed?

[bobbolink]

95. How do you push for things you consider a priority?

[AndyTiedye]

143. Same Stuff as Most Here

I have participated in a lot of protests, but the MSM considers them to be non-events and doesn't report them.
I used to give quite a bit of money to political campaigns, but I don't have as much of that as I used to.
I still call the congresscritters, and I guess someone tallies the calls somehow, but whether they actually get tallied to something resembling the position I was presenting, who knows?
I have participated in a number of fundraisers to help feed those in need.

I do not have the network or the social skills to organize such things myself though.

[Deep13]

76. Holy shit.

:scared:

[Liberal_in_LA]

79. Los Angeles transitional shelters require TB test for entering residents.

But I'm sure the danger exists in drop in shelters

[GreenPartyVoter]

81. Yes, you would think so.

[mntleo2]

111. So what do they do with the ones who have it? Leper time?

...Jes' move along now and find somewhere else to sleep. Who cares if you freeze to death or die of exposure? You are now a LEPER and they deserve to die quicker than even the homeless who have not gotten it yet.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[TheKentuckian]

90. Because people are small minded, shortsighted, cold hearted, and dimwitted.

Because of this lack of awareness and the "fuck you, I got mine" attitude we have a fair chance of bringing a horrible epidemic back strong within five or ten yeats.

[Marrah_G]

92. This is something I've never known about

Thank you for posting this. So many important things get overlooked because the media are focused on royal weddings, reality tv and Lindsey Lohan's latest arrest....

[dembotoz]

94. some nasty shit- wife had tb

back in the early 80's she developed leukemia.
When undergoing chemo, the tb started and took off.
it was some wierd strain and by the time the doctors figured out what it was and what drugs would sort of fight it, the damage was done.
The tb left her in a state in which a bone marrow transplant was no longer an option. So what killed her? was it the tb or was it the leukemia.
I do know that the antibiotics they had to use in such huge quantities to try the kill the tb seemed to have worse side effects than the chemo.
damn, i still miss her.

[bobbolink]

99. So sad, dembotoz. Thank you for sharing that... it must be hard.

People don't understand that this is still a threat, and I appreciate you underscoring this, and I imagine it isn't easy to write about it.

You have illustrated how we are risking the health of so many by allowing this to go unchecked.

Thank you so much.

[mntleo2]

114. No words, just ...

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug::hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug::hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[quiller4]

96. Cases of TB among the homeless are on the decline.in my area

That includes all forms of TB--not just drug resistant forms. TB rates rose in the late 80s and early 90s. I live in Pierce County and worked with shelters, transitional housing programs and ex-offender housing from the late 80s through 2006 when I retired. TB rates increased over 20% from '85 to '92. Washington state rates peaked in '92 at 6/100,000.

In early 93 several programs to detect and treat TB in the homeless population were launched with strong cooperation from agencies providing overnight shelter. As a result from '93 to 2000 the TB infection rate declined more than 8%.

While rates in Pierce County declined dramatically due to coordinated efforts of Healthcare for the Homeless clinics (operated by Metropolitan Development Council and St. Leo Parish with consultation from Pierce County Health Dept.) and efforts of shelter providers Tacoma Rescue Mission and Catholic Community Services, rates in King and Thurston Counties continued to increase reaching a 30 year high in 2007.

In Thurston County the increase was highest not among the homeless but among returning veterans. Early in 2007 the Soldier Readiness Program at JBLM began work with local health departments to address this issue expanding testing of soldiers returning from war zones especially from Afghanistan where infection rates are very high.

Pacific Lutheran University is tracking the effects of the new TB management programs and initial reports are promising.

[mntleo2]

102. This is good news ...and you are in my area ...

PM me as I am interested in learning more about what they did to decrease the exposure.

Cat in Seattle

[bobbolink]

104. I want to know the methods, too. It sounds like good news, but I have seen too much slight-of-hand

to avoid being skeptical.

[riderinthestorm]

118. Declining rates here too. I'm in the western suburbs of Chicago, volunteering at the local women's

shelter on a regular basis, and at our food pantry. It's absolutely critical that the shelters work with the local health department to detect and treat TB, emphasizing management to patients - that's been a big part of our strategy and it's working.

Actually all of IL has been experiencing declining rates. Here's just one article:
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110324/news/110329808/

Kick for an important thread.

[tnlefty]

105. First, we would have to discuss the homeless, that not

many want to talk about in my area. Under the rug, under the rug, under the rug.

[Chris_Texas]

108. If they were homeless teachers or something maybe...

But scruffy nasty non-bootstrapping non-educated homeless? I think NOT sir, not at THIS club!

[mntleo2]

115. Many Homeless ARE quite well educated.

...here is my friend, a homeless single mom who is a law school graduate. She is one of many. http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_196959530324055&ap=1

Just sayin' ...
Cat

[bobbolink]

117. Says you have to log in to read it. :(

In the mid-80s, I knew a homeless man with a Ph.D.

The stereotypes just don't apply, but people don't want to give them up.

[Chris_Texas]

121. Guess she should have been a public employee

Then she would still have a job and, depending upon what that job is, fantastic benefits -- all paid for by the fine folks working at Walmart and McDonalds.

And while I am being a sarcastic jerk there is truth in what I am saying. When the time came to stand up for working Joe's an Janes, both parties were fighting for the privilege of shipping their jobs overseas. And it was Buill Clinton who won when he signed NAFTA. In the same way, when it came time top fight for healthcare for ALL the democratic party masses were silent -- they only got excited when healthcare for the elite few public employees with benefits were threatened.

Their solution to healthcare? Stick a government gun in the faces of the poor and FORCE them to buy useless insurance at whatever insane jacked-up rates the insurance companies demand. According to these fine DEMOCRATS, you don't need a fucking house, you don't need a fucking car, you don't need to feed your kids, but you damn well better pay Mr. Insurance Man or your ass is going to prison. And this, this abortion, was CHEARED and DEFENDED right here at DU as some kind of progressive accomplishment. It's like the fucking twilight zone.

[mntleo2]

127. You are not being a jerk,. just telling the truth n/t

[mntleo2]

110. Exactly the point of this OP, tnlefty!

...God forbid if the root of the problem is about the institution of poverty. The billions being spend in a Poverty Industry that in reality serves the rich but does little for the poor. In fact as it hogs all the public funding for itself, it makes sure not to "enable" the poor while it rewards itself with being so "charitable" when in fact the real enabled are themselves.

In the meantime a killer is stalking the streets leaving behind a bloody trail but as long as the killer leaves them alone well, "Dead body over there? WHAT dead body?" Little do they know around the corner is with a trail leading right to the source IS the killer waiting ...

Cat in Seattle

[tnlefty]

119. No, my statement was the we'd have to at least talk

about the homeless first, which isn't being done where I live.

Talking about, seeing, addressing needs has to come first, and they truly are invisible in my community and the downtown area around me. First there must be an acknowlegement,

[Chris_Texas]

106. The homeless are usually poor. The poor don't have a party that represents them

[bobbolink]

109. You are right, and I will add... we don't have ANYTHING that represents us. We don't have an NAACP,

a NOW, an Anti-Defamation League, or anything of that nature.

The Southern Poverty Law Center is working on the criminalization of homelessness, but it has its hands full with so much, and isn't making a lot of headway.

Yet, the Dems yawn and turn the other way. Some "progressives". :(

[mntleo2]

112. PLUS it is not illegal to discriminate because you are poor

...to deny you a job, deny you housing, deny you medical care, legally the poor are not a protected class. They should be. :cry:

[bobbolink]

113. Deny access to a library, deny the right to sit down and rest, deny the right to even use a restroom

And the lists go on.

And, the lists are IGNORED.

WE've been invisiblized.

[Chris_Texas]

123. Of course not! YOU'RE POOR! You have nothing to offer them.

It's not like you are in the top 5% of American wage earners, like a teacher or something. If you were, well hell, if anyone even HINTS at a cut in your benny's and the democrats are up in arms and hitting the bricks. But the poor? Fuck 'em!

What the poor need, per the Democrat party, is less money. They need to give up things like, say, paying their rent or feeding their fucking kids, and give the money to Insurance Companies instead. That's the MODERN PROGRESSIVE POSITION. It's three-dimentional chess, and you have to be willing to sacrifice your pawns if you want to save the pieces that matter.

That's you. A pawn. And your dead. Now get off the board.

[bobbolink]

124. I know you are using humor, but those words hurt.. it is too close to home. It is exactly

how we are seen, and it hurts to be dismissed.

AND, that may be how those in power... the President and Congresscritters see us, but what hurts even more is the people on the lower levels.. the "progressives" who post to political forums and call in "progressive" radio shows who have invisibililzed us.... that is DEATH.

[Chris_Texas]

125. I am poor too my friend. It wasn't humor (as you know) it's reality.

I am on the brink of joining the ranks of the homeless myself. But for now I still have electricity and internet, and while I do I am gonna take this opportunity to sent a heartfelt fuck you to the elitist self-righteous douchebags in BOTH parties.

Republicans I can understand. They are quite open after all -- if they could they would buy the poor in cord quantities and use them in place of wood in their fireplaces -- so I expect no better.

But faux-liberals infuruate me. I swear to god, a fair number of the posters here probably wear their fur coats to thousand dollar a plate "animal rights" bruncheons, and then donate heavily to saving the endangered Snot-Warbler of the outer Whogivesafuck mountains. These are the same "progressives" who think gas hitting $5 a gallon is a good thing because then people would be forced to park their nasty old trucks and buy nice little Prius's and VOLTS and Smart Cars -- just like THEY drive when they aren't picking up the kids from ballet and soccer in their Lexus SUVs.

They care deeply about the poor. Just not the poor HERE. In fact, many of them believe they are poor themselves. You wouldn't believe the deductible on their insurance, and college for their son Thad is costing them so much they actually flew coach on their last junket to Switzerland.

[mntleo2]

130. Sing it Brotha !

You are so correct about these douche bags that believe that the "rest of us" should magically be able to drive those affordable cars, who do not care a whit about people in their own communities in dire need of support, and whose nose are so far up in the air they don't notice what is right under it. I am mad about it too, Hon, which is why I wrote this article.

I am so glad you put your 2 cents in ~ it was really worth a million bucks.

There are a lot of us, PM me if you want and I will put you in touch with more of us who are trying to wake up these jerks you speak about who we all know. I am not saying it is easy to do that, but I AM saying that we can find community with one another and look for ways to be heard.

It is time to take this to the next level.

Cat

[bobbolink]

136. Fine to say "Fuck you" to TPTB, and stone-hearted "progressives", but

turning the hate language on yourself and other poor people isn't helpful.... it doesn't strengthen us it weakens us. Its like an abused woman taking the ugly words her husband says to her and repeats them to herself. It hurts us, and I just won't listen to the words anymore.

As you know, I completely agree with you about the latte liberals, and the lack of concern. I have said it before and firmly believe they are the biggest obstacal for any kind of justice for poor people. Just so you know... they will turn their vitriol on anyone who dares to speak that truth.

I will suggest listening to Elie Wiesel's speech at the Clinton White House, "The Perils of Indifference" to understand just what the silence of the "progressives" does to us.

[riderinthestorm]

126. Yup, poverty issues are spread over Planned Parenthood, Rainbow Coalition

Unicef, NARAL, Catholic Charities (and other religious organizations), and so many other Democratically oriented organizations - but there isn't one over-arching organization. Right now poverty issues are distributed onto too many diverse orgs. It would be a great achievement to unite people under a single banner. It's too bad John Edwards turned out to be such a personal schmuck - his was a national-level voice that could have changed the dynamic. He truly did care and did do so much work to help in this area.

[mntleo2]

128. These entities PROFIT off the poor and they aren't democratic

...they are organizations who spend literally more than 10 X and more of their funds on THEMSELVES. They pay 6 figures to their CEO-Directors (who are usually friends of the millionaires contributing their tax-deducted "donations"). They hog all the federal funding and then spend it mostly on themselves. They exploit their low wage workers and volunteers and their major concern is *not* for their mission, but for their own jobs and their existence. They have been caught for fraud, and yet the government still contract their services.

The only "democratic" part about them are their boards, often comprised of hand-licked (eerr picked) rich people whose main interest is how they use the organization to keep their own millions, the next glittering fundraiser that no client of theirs could ever attend (except as "volunteer" servers and coat-checkers), and what it looks like to their high society friends to be so "charitable".

Also nobody is watching the store as far the the federal funding they receive. No policy wonk, no independent agency, nobody has a clue as to where these tax dollars are really going. They are secretive and their services are punitive and short sighted. They are more concerned about "enabling" their clients than the blatant enablement they enjoy, such as: "I will give a million bucks, which is tax deductible, of course. Then I will pull strings so they hire my niece who is unemployable anywhere else even though her paid-for education was at the top university and she would have failed except her family threatened to withdraw their TAX DEDUCTABLE donations there too if they didn't pass her. Then she will hire all her friends for those lesser but well-paid positions. WE of course, will ALL get paid generously while making our clients beg and fill out reams of forms to "prove" they are poor enough to merit our "services".

What? I am being enabled and profiting off the poor? Enabling is *only* about those lower income people not us, see we have a right to all that funding without question for ourselves not them ~ because we are better than they are! There! See how wonderful and caring I am???

Want to know who is REALLY watching the store? Here are some low income moms who went undercover in these organizations and embarrassed their legislature so much, they had to convict them of fraud! But they STILL contract with these crooks:
http://www.welfarewarriors.org/MWV_Archive%5Cs01%5Cs01--bwe--bus_tour.htm
And again here:
http://www.welfarewarriors.org/mwv_archive/sp09/sp09_milw.htm

You might also notice the obscene stats in these investigations about what these entities actually spend on themselves vs their clients.

This is only ONE state with many of these "non-profits" who have a national and international presence. If it is happening there, it is happening in your state.

They are more about advocating for themselves, not the poor.

Just sayin' ...

[riderinthestorm]

137. Damn the Dems then, and President Obama for fighting to fund Planned Parenthood!

Since their services are so "secretive, punitive and short-sighted"!

My bad. :eyes:

Lets just eradicate ALL agencies working towards assisting the poor, yeah, that'll show 'em since they're all just exploiting low wage workers, "hogging" all of the federal funds those damn multi-millionaire non-profit barons!

As for me, this poor farmer will just go back to quietly working at my local non-profit shelter which is barely scraping by (oops! no mega-million dollar funds for us how'd we miss out??111!!!). Good thing I now know to avoid free women's clinics like PP.

[mntleo2]

139. I am speaking about large nons

I apologize because I guess I did not make myself clear enough. Since in small nons there are *never* any of the things I describe like glittery fundraisers, millions in government funding or millionaires' deadbeat neices making 6 figures or anything like that. Why silly me that I "assumed" it was obvious to folks like you, it was large non-profits who I was talking about. As you know, when you "assume you make an "ASS" out of "U" and "ME" (get it, "ass-u-me)???.

Erm, even though I did say

This is only ONE state with many of these "non-profits" who have a national and international presence. If it is happening there, it is happening in your state.

I myself is a board member of a tiny non-profit who advocate for the poor and for a decent safety net for people who are living in their cars, standing at the bus stop, whose kids are taken by CPS because they are the working and disabled poor and there is no safety net left, etc. We say our entire non-profit does more in a year on less money than what it costs to pay one DSHS manager's salary. As a volunteer I bring in 300% below the poverty line for an income that barely keeps me afloat as a disabled person.

The people I speak about are using mega-millions run by multi-millionaires who are only in business for themselves and spend on the average of 10 X more on themselves than for their mission.

They "hog" all those millions in government funding from non-profits like YOURS who are doing good caring personal work. So they can use what they take as a tax deduction to pay for that Mercedes they just bought. I am glad you work at a small shelter and I do hope you won't contract TB thanks to the fact you do not have desperately needed resources in order to DO that work.

I have *no* problem with small non-profits, as a matter of fact small non-profit imo should STAY small because once they get beyond a certain point they no longer do the work they were created to do. They then become useless, over-priced, self-consumptive, exploitive, pathological machines.

Nons like yours are not what I am talking about. Sheesh I know it is hard to run a small non, I am working at it with other hard working people all the time begging, pleading, spending hours writing grants that bring in little if any for a cause that few others do and is so desperate it is life and death too ~ all without getting paid a cent but ... maybe your post was a little touchy-wutchy there ...:yoiks:

Hopefully this helps clear up what I meant ...

[riderinthestorm]

141. You are the one making broad brush statements. My shelter DID actually have a pretty posh

fundraiser, and we have some local millionaires on our board (who also work their asses off). I hate your point: "once they get beyond a certain point they no longer do the work they were created to do. They then become useless, over-priced, self-consumptive, exploitive, pathological machines." While my agency has actually been damn successful (I am a great grant writer), I resent the implications that we are in any way "pathological".

I think ALL agencies that aid the poor are valid. NAACP takes a chunk for their Admin yet nobody slams them for their good works (and glitzy fundraisers).

Bobbie's point was that there wasn't any over-arching agency to oversee poverty issues. I agreed with that. I also pointed out that there are many agencies who DO good work which you then slammed. If I come across as "touchy-wutchy" then it's because there is a contingent on DU who believes that any good action towards poverty issues must be slammed. That we "latte liberals don't get it", that "progressives" are the "worst" at this, and every poverty thread on DU "sinks like a stone". I resent that. I came up from poverty, I continue to be involved in helping those who need it most, and "nons like mine" are seeds that are waiting to spring forth into greater national prominence. I applaud that, I welcome that, and I don't begrudge the biggies like Planned Parenthood one bit. Agencies like PP should be applauded, lauded and held up as national treasures. We NEED all of them.

[mntleo2]

144. I think you've put your finger on the problem

You are pointing out some tension between the classes, that is in many ways the point of the original OP.

Non-profits to the receiver are most often punitive, and self serving. The assumptions nons have are often quite unconsciously demeaning. Many people who are working in those nons resent the "ungratefulness" of their clients if they but raise to a whisper any criticism.

I will try to say this gently, but in their desire to make themselves feel good about what they do, nons overlook that charity is a "touchy-wuchy" thing for the receiver as well. Furthermore the giver's anger has far more power aimed at those receivers who are intelligent enough to to see what is really going on. Givers are "gatekeepers" and most know it on some level. Whether "secret" or not this gate keeping gives the giver power over their receiver. Because they can take away their offer for desperately needed necessities any time ~ and they know it. Most often the giver (non-profit) refuse to acknowledge this power.

Pointing out the obvious that is widely known among receivers is something YOU will hardly ever see, but the truth is among the receivers, nons are often an open joke. However to the NON these receivers have learned to have their hat in hand and show gratitute because in reality it is stroking the ego of the "giver" and while the recipient might truly feel glad for the services, they also have to abide quite demeaning actions and attitudes to get it.

Here is an illustration: As a young adult I was privileged to live and work among some New Orleans third generation people descended from slaves. Some were relatives of one another, some were not but the kinship in what they had shared in their generation was unmistakable. They heard the stories directly from their slave grandparents, they lived in charity because of prejudice, they knew of what I speak.

They knew that the injustices in the world are often "underground" where the smiles hid much prejudice and ignorant judgement by people who truly believed they "knew" about what their "charity object" needed (when it was often not going to help at all) ~ often better than the person who had lived it. Still even though the receiver gets something they don't need, they have to make the giver feel all warm and fuzzy for giving it. I might add what was given was something even the giver did not want or need, in other words they use the receiver as their "trash bin". This was because there was an underlying attitude behind that smile that they were smarter, and better and deserved better than their receivers.

As it is today, my friends did not pick that up from out of nowhere.

They used to laugh about those people. They would mimic them and make fun of them because they had nowhere else to put it. Because if they had tried to point this judgmental prejudice out, the "smiler" would have innocently looked around (because they could not admit to themselves much less to the person to whom they were condescending) and said, "What? You are crazy!" And since they had the power to MAKE the recipient into appearing "crazy" well that is where the matter was dropped.

So the joke among my friends was when there was a desperate need, you went hat in hand with a contrite look in your eye and got what you needed from the smiler. You were in truth stroking the smiler's ego so they would feel generous enough to throw a few crumbs your way. They called it "shucking and jiving" meaning that often they had to "dance" for what they needed. They knew that a small piece of their souls were sold to the smiler that they had to do or they and their family would starve.

Laughter at this point is often the best medicine ~ especially among the others who had to do the same thing. A true (and yet quite unacknowledged insanity) kabuki theater where up is down and in is out to the smiler. THEY know what you do not, even though you are the one living this nightmare and they are sleeping soundly in their nice warm beds.

Many nons and their workers today do not realize "shucking and jiving" has changed from the color of your skin to the class you are a part of. But the smiles? They are still there, the ignorance is still there, the condescending is alive and well. They do not realize (nor do they want to) that they are taking a piece of their "shuckers" soul with the demands they make to get what they offer, while assuming that the smiler themselves should never have to part with anything like it ~ and if they did, they would be angry too.

IMO this is why the conversations between lower classes and the "latte liberals" descend down to nothing as they always do. Because I am trying to gently say, the "latte liberals" have far more power and absolutely no respect for the human beings who are bravely trying to step beyond the game of "shucking and jiving" and they are TRYING to express what really could help. Of course they are never heard. And if you think there should be no anger because so many pieces of soul have been exchanged for a few crumbs, well you will never get past the smile. and once it is realized the frozen smile stays in place ~ or worse it disappears ~ well you will get silence from then on because you simply do not get it.

In my non-profit, run by mostly receivers, we don't even use the word "client" because it is considered demeaning. We use the word "member" because we want the message from small words to our large deeds to show that we are all equals. We are not better, we are not "doing something for the little homeless child" we are working TOGETHER toward a better world for all. Most of us are as bad off as the people we serve, even our director who makes little more than minimum wage.

We spend every penny as wisely and prudently as we can and every single member from the director to the board, to a donor, to a receiver who may not be able to give a minute of time or a cent of money, they ALL have say. They openly know there was a democratic agreement about what we are doing, what our motives are for every cent we spend. It is also a "run-off" democracy because we also know the majority is not always right and the lone voice deserve deep consideration and action. We do *not* want to EVER force anyone seeking our assistance to have to sell a piece of their soul to get the help, we accept the anger because we know why it is there, and we are open to anyone who try to express that pain. We then want to do something about it that actually works.

The problem with many nons (and government agencies) is that they hardly ever, if at all, listen to the very people they supposedly serve.

There was a little conversation among us receivers about responding here. We are already seeing the frozen smile, and we were debating whether or not I should answer this comment among us "receivers" or to remain silent as we usually do at this point.

But I decided to answer because I detected in what you wrote a true puzzlement about the resentment you hear, particularly from people who have to receive the services they so desperately need. WHY that anger is and what can be done about what they need is almost never heard (and many of the answers would not cost a cent), Because we are used to watching the smilers who will never even try to understand the anger they hear, they just look around and say, "What am I doing wrong?" But we know they do not truly want to know the answer to that question and since they are the ones with the power, there is no further reason to speak. We also know there is no "democracy" in that, only a smiler's need to impose their "solutions" that are not addressing the root of the problem

And the "root of the problem" is that the receiver is invisible and denigrated into a child who has no way to speak because they know if they do then they will incur the wrath and the frozen smile that might take what little they have away.

I hope this helps. I am not speaking for my "receiver" friends, but I suspect what I am saying, most of them would agree. If it doesn't get through, I am not sure what to do next except to let my own anger descend into silence.

Cat in Seattle

[riderinthestorm]

146. I've been both a receiver and (now) a giver. I know whereof I speak.

I never looked upon the services I received from PP or food from the food bank, for example, as any kind of an "open joke", and my work now is deadly serious. You speak of being "denigrated" as a receiver yet you want to paint me and others who work with me as some kind of fucking, condescending, judgmental "smiler".

I'm sorry you have obviously never had honest communications with your "members". I don't know anyone who is or wants to be a "member", I only know the people I see every day by their names. Neither client nor member - but instead their name. It's the most basic respect at the most fundamental level. Who wants to be a "member" of poverty after all?

[bobbolink]

145. I, also, hesitated about responding to *your* angry words. There are so many "false bottoms" in

the scenario that you set forth, that it wouldn't do any good to relate to them directly.

What I will say to you, if you *do* want to have an honest dialogue, is that the "communication" is always a one-way street in these instances.

Example: Once when I got treated shabbily by a "help" agency that represented all the local churches, I went to 3 clergy to report what had happened, believing that they would then want to make it right... that they wouldn't want poor people treated badly in their name.

Two clergy did the passive-agressive "I'll look into it" and it was promptly pocket vetoed. That is typical of the kind of soul-damaging treatment we receive.

A third pastor immediately took out paper and pen and wrote notes. I expressed the idea that there should be a third-party location for people to report their experiences. She agreed that was important.

I also pointed out that in the "contract" that we have to sign just in order to get a loaf of bread, that it was completely one-way.... it wasn't even stipulated that any personal information we gave them would go no further! She was surprised, and when I said more about it, she was appalled. It had never crossed her mind that any of these places were that stacked against the poor people receiving the "help".

Because she was new to town, and nobody knew her, she went herself to see how things were run. She told me later that she was treated very rudely, and when they found out she was the new pastor, they were all sweetness and light. "I *hate* when people do that", she told me.

She was the only one who did what a CLERGY should do.... take a person, any person, seriously, look into the situation dispassionately, and hold up standards that should be met. Two volunteers were fired because of her concern, and other changes were made. THAT is rare, but what needs to happen everywhere.

As for what Cat says about treated as an "ingrate", I can vouch for that, and I have one example (among many, unfortunately), that illustrates it perfectly. One person was in a small town and was stuck without a place to stay, and the local "help" agency put her up in a hotel for a night. The room she was given by the managers of the hotel was very substandard.. without going into a long list of particulars, suffice to say that it was so bad it could not have been rented to any "regular" customer.

The woman so lodged was taken aback at the conditions, and when she reported it to the "help" agency the next day, she was treated with disdain. She says she later realized from what was said that they saw her as ungrateful. What was in *her* mind, was that the "help" agency PAYS for those rooms, and she thought they should know they were being taken advantage of.

That is a perfect example of what goes on all the time, and the total lack of any real communication.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[L0oniX]

116. K & R

[hlthe2b]

120. Has been widely discussed/tracked in pulbic health circles

for the past two decades. New resistant strains emerge, but this is not a new phenomenon and the challenges within shelters not new, unfortunately.

[bobbolink]

122. If you read many of the replies, you will find that a lot of people don't KNOW about it.

Whether it is a new or old problem doesn't matter.. what matters is that people understand that SHELTERS are not the answer... if its not this, it will be something else. Jamming poor people up in cramped quarters creates disease problems.

We USED to know that.

[mntleo2]

129. Exactly ...hatred of the poor and "solutions" that make it worse n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

138. kick