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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:16 AM Original message |
A cultural lesson for DU. |
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cliffordu (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:18 AM Response to Original message |
1. ...Hispanics from Spain...... |
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pintobean (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:22 AM Response to Reply #1 |
2. Here endeth the lesson. |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:26 AM Response to Reply #2 |
5. Spaniards, are citizens of Spain, however. |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:37 AM Response to Reply #5 |
15. They should be referred to as European Americans |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:41 AM Response to Reply #15 |
20. So a person of Spaniard descent, for the sake of the U.S. Census, would not be tallied |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:52 AM Response to Reply #20 |
34. I don't think anyone should be tallied into the formula |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:55 AM Response to Reply #34 |
37. I see. Well, that's certainly your opinion. |
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Quantess (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:35 AM Response to Reply #20 |
66. I know a fair skinned red headed man, last name, Garcia. |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:48 AM Response to Reply #66 |
74. I went by the U.S. Census. |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:49 AM Response to Reply #5 |
30. There is no separate category for Spaniard-Americans. |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:53 AM Response to Reply #30 |
35. Very stupid of the census bureau. n/t |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:54 AM Response to Reply #30 |
36. Thanks for the info, I think. |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:17 AM Response to Reply #36 |
58. LOL! |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:49 AM Response to Reply #58 |
76. Thank you. Very clear. |
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a la izquierda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-27-11 11:28 AM Response to Reply #30 |
132. We do? |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-27-11 03:08 PM Response to Reply #132 |
136. The Hispanic/Latino/other Spanish category came about to capture the separate identity from race. |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:23 AM Response to Reply #1 |
3. LOL! |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:47 AM Response to Reply #3 |
27. As Paul Rodriguez, the comedian, once said shortly |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:52 AM Response to Reply #27 |
33. You aren't referring to gringos. are you Cleita? |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:00 AM Response to Reply #33 |
39. I was too, but affectionately with a little 'ita at the end. |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:36 AM Response to Reply #1 |
13. Not necessarily. |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:40 AM Response to Reply #13 |
17. That's interesting Cleita. |
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Wait Wut (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:20 PM Response to Reply #1 |
91. Yeah. That's what my grandma called herself. |
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dkf (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:24 AM Response to Original message |
4. I don't see how focusing on subsections of race are a good thing. |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:28 AM Response to Reply #4 |
7. I wish it were that easy. |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:09 AM Response to Reply #7 |
50. It is that easy... |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:52 AM Response to Reply #50 |
78. JuniperLea, you all have had a chance to do it your way. It's not working. |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:10 AM Response to Reply #4 |
52. Thank you... |
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Gormy Cuss (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:31 AM Response to Reply #52 |
65. When bigotry is gone, the need to categorize by race or ethnic origin will be gone. |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:55 AM Response to Reply #65 |
79. Thanks Gormy. |
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frazzled (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:27 AM Response to Original message |
6. Ditto for "Asians" |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:29 AM Response to Reply #6 |
8. This is the new frontier of awareness, isn't it? |
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frazzled (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:33 AM Response to Reply #8 |
10. Not really: it was a big discussion back in the 1990s |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:37 AM Response to Reply #10 |
14. I don't know how it is for Asians, but since the Democrats want to court |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:30 AM Response to Original message |
9. I think EVERYONE needs to be more honest about their own priorities, because doing so |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:35 AM Response to Reply #9 |
12. Very well reasoned. |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:56 AM Response to Reply #12 |
38. Absolutely. People ARE more reasonable than they often appear. Situations get them |
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pintobean (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:35 AM Response to Original message |
11. The Census Bureau needs to do DNA testing |
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SoCalDem (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:39 AM Response to Reply #11 |
16. Damned humans... they keep marrying "others" & moving around too |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:45 AM Response to Reply #16 |
22. Since it's left up to the person to decide for himself how he or she identifies herself, |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:47 AM Response to Reply #22 |
73. I had to do that when I got married at the Social Security |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 12:01 PM Response to Reply #73 |
83. LOL! |
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eridani (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:11 PM Response to Reply #22 |
125. That accords exactly with Census Bureau training |
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notesdev (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:40 AM Response to Original message |
18. Naturally common sense gets unrecced |
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jtown1123 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:45 AM Response to Reply #18 |
23. Good points |
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notesdev (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:08 AM Response to Reply #23 |
47. I use that term |
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AsahinaKimi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:55 AM Response to Reply #23 |
80. As for me |
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notesdev (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 12:37 PM Response to Reply #80 |
88. Asian just isn't very descriptive |
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AsahinaKimi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:01 PM Response to Reply #88 |
89. Okay let me put this another way ... |
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notesdev (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:25 PM Response to Reply #89 |
92. How's this for a compromise |
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AsahinaKimi (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:37 PM Response to Reply #92 |
95. except I am not a man... |
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notesdev (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 08:18 PM Response to Reply #95 |
117. I hereby pronounce you |
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Vanje (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 09:37 PM Response to Reply #117 |
123. No |
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a la izquierda (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-27-11 11:34 AM Response to Reply #88 |
133. Latin American isn't either. |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:46 AM Response to Reply #18 |
24. Thank you. I appreciate your comments. |
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pnwmom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:50 AM Response to Reply #18 |
31. I know lots of whites who, like Obama, consider themselves |
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demosincebirth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:08 AM Response to Reply #18 |
48. As a Mexican, what you say is true. Also, one thing that binds many latin |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 12:03 PM Response to Reply #48 |
84. Yes. But it doesn't work in our favor, though it should. |
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demosincebirth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:52 PM Response to Reply #84 |
98. Latinos are conservative on abortion, but liberal on other social issue. Out of |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 07:30 PM Response to Reply #98 |
109. Some Latinos are conservative on abortion. |
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demosincebirth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 09:22 PM Response to Reply #109 |
122. Personnally, I'm pro-choice and so are many of my relatives. So, what do you want |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:07 PM Response to Reply #122 |
128. It might have been true years ago that Latinos were in general |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 07:28 PM Response to Reply #48 |
108. Well, not really. That might have been true fifty, even 30 years ago. |
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demosincebirth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:41 AM Response to Original message |
19. Most Cuban Americans have different political views than the rest of Latinos. |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:46 AM Response to Reply #19 |
26. Enough said. |
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demosincebirth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:02 AM Response to Reply #26 |
42. Isn't this a discussion forum? |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:05 AM Response to Reply #42 |
44. I've discussed this before on DU... |
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demosincebirth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:20 AM Response to Reply #44 |
60. Perdoneme, what do you mean "PC issue?" |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:56 AM Response to Reply #60 |
81. (One must never speak of subtle differences) |
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kestrel91316 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:42 AM Response to Original message |
21. I find myself pondering the old saying: Divide and conquer. |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:49 AM Response to Reply #21 |
29. It wouldn't be an issue unless some group out there felt they weren't being |
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KharmaTrain (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:46 AM Response to Original message |
25. Carribbeans vs Cuban vs Mexicans... |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:00 AM Response to Reply #25 |
40. Yes. Precisely my same opinion. |
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izquierdista (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:48 AM Response to Original message |
28. Sorry, folks, there's only two groups |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:01 AM Response to Reply #28 |
41. Yes, but Democrats need to build their platform. They won't do it that way. |
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Dappleganger (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:51 AM Response to Original message |
32. They really all just need to learn how to speak American... |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:04 AM Response to Original message |
43. I'm just not going to talk to anyone anymore... |
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pintobean (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:07 AM Response to Reply #43 |
46. Love this post, JuniperLea |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:14 AM Response to Reply #46 |
56. I'm happy to hear that, pintobean! |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:09 AM Response to Reply #43 |
49. Sorry JuniperLea. |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:13 AM Response to Reply #49 |
54. This thread further divides us all... |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:46 AM Response to Reply #54 |
72. That may be the way you see it, but those of us who have lived in the |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:49 AM Response to Reply #72 |
75. I really couldn't disagree more... eom |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 12:16 PM Response to Reply #75 |
86. Personally, I think it's condescending and possibly even racist to lump |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 06:22 PM Response to Reply #86 |
101. Utter nonsense... |
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TK421 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 06:31 PM Response to Reply #101 |
102. I'm not human |
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datasuspect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 08:08 PM Response to Reply #102 |
116. my CPU is a neural net processor, a learning computer |
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TK421 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 08:20 PM Response to Reply #116 |
118. I'll bet you can't be bargained with, can't be reasoned with, and feel no pity,or remorse,or fear |
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datasuspect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 08:23 PM Response to Reply #118 |
120. i'll be back |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-27-11 11:13 AM Response to Reply #102 |
129. Awesome! |
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pintobean (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 07:45 PM Response to Reply #101 |
111. The world is upside down |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-27-11 11:17 AM Response to Reply #111 |
130. Well played, IMHO... |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 07:56 PM Response to Reply #101 |
113. Deleted message |
JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-27-11 11:43 AM Response to Reply #86 |
134. I live with them.... |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:13 AM Response to Reply #43 |
53. Bravo! |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:22 AM Response to Reply #53 |
61. Identity! Yes! |
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patrice (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:40 AM Response to Reply #61 |
69. Perhaps it IS, as is conventionally said, the instinctual awareness of that weakness that makes |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:14 AM Response to Reply #43 |
55. I grew up in the same city, however, we were unique. |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:18 AM Response to Reply #55 |
59. It's a beautiful thing to keep traditions and languages and such... |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:26 AM Response to Reply #59 |
64. I agree with you. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 07:22 PM Response to Reply #43 |
107. It's too bad that considering other people is so exhausting. |
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fishwax (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 08:39 PM Response to Reply #107 |
121. well said n/t |
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Celeborn Skywalker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:07 AM Response to Original message |
45. Spaniards |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:10 AM Response to Reply #45 |
51. Good observations. Thanks for sharing them. |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:16 AM Response to Reply #45 |
57. Don't forget Brazil, which even most Latinos consider |
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JuniperLea (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:24 AM Response to Reply #57 |
62. And wasn't Argentina ruled by Italians at one point in history? |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:39 AM Response to Reply #62 |
67. All the countries are culturally varied down there because |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 12:06 PM Response to Reply #57 |
85. No kidding. |
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Vanje (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 12:35 PM Response to Reply #57 |
87. Brazil is "Portuguesic" |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:36 PM Response to Reply #87 |
94. I don't think even that will resonate with them. |
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 06:56 PM Response to Reply #94 |
105. I found it funny. I laughed. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 07:32 PM Response to Reply #87 |
110. Doesn't "hispanic" mean from the Iberian penninsula |
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Vanje (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 09:44 PM Response to Reply #110 |
124. Could be |
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mitchtv (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:35 PM Response to Reply #87 |
126. yes , true enough |
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WinkyDink (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:26 AM Response to Original message |
63. But what about the Argentinian-Germans?! |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:41 AM Response to Reply #63 |
70. Or German Chileans, or Brazilian Pomeranians. |
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mitchtv (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 10:36 PM Response to Reply #70 |
127. viva Bernardo O'Higgins |
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MadHound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:39 AM Response to Original message |
68. How about this, |
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Cleita (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:43 AM Response to Reply #68 |
71. Yes, however, they still do and what are we |
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MadHound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:52 AM Response to Reply #71 |
77. So we stoop to the level of birthers, |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 11:59 AM Response to Reply #77 |
82. Well, I'm glad to see you have figure it all out. |
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MadHound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:14 PM Response to Reply #82 |
90. So you would rather continue to divide people, citizens of this country by race and ethnicity? |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:34 PM Response to Reply #90 |
93. Keep the PC going. Just don't be surprised when you lose their votes in the next election. |
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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:40 PM Response to Reply #93 |
96. Deleted message |
The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:48 PM Response to Reply #96 |
97. We will disagree, vehemently on this point. |
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bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 06:47 PM Response to Reply #96 |
103. oh bullshit to you. i grew up and was friends with a diverse community and most self identified very |
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bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-27-11 11:20 AM Response to Reply #96 |
131. This post is insulting and divisive bullshit. |
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Blue_In_AK (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 01:53 PM Response to Original message |
99. When we were in San Jose, Costa Rica, |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 02:03 PM Response to Reply #99 |
100. Madhound doesn't want to believe that such opinions exist. |
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bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 06:56 PM Response to Reply #99 |
104. i was the boss of a dozen women from central and south america, as well as DR and omigod they all |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 08:04 PM Response to Reply #104 |
115. Latinos are racist? Say it isn't so! |
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bettyellen (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 08:22 PM Response to Reply #115 |
119. or nationalistic? well no, the skin color is an issue for many. |
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EFerrari (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Wed Apr-27-11 11:51 AM Response to Reply #119 |
135. Skip Gates is doing a new series, Black in Latin America, |
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Throd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 07:16 PM Response to Original message |
106. Ay joder! Me duele la cabeza. |
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Exilednight (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 07:48 PM Response to Original message |
112. Interesting article. Sadly, the majority of Americans can't tell the difference between |
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The Backlash Cometh (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Tue Apr-26-11 08:00 PM Response to Reply #112 |
114. Just roll with the punches. |
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DU AdBot (1000+ posts) | Wed Apr 24th 2024, 12:50 PM Response to Original message |
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