Should college students pay higher tuition to take courses in majors that result in higher salaries?

[OmahaBlueDog]

Poll question: Should college students pay higher tuition to take courses in majors that result in higher salaries?

Omaha World Herald
UNL tuition may vary by majors

LINCOLN — An engineering student likely will make significantly more money after college than an English major.

So the University of Nebraska-Lincoln is proposing a new tuition structure to allow it to charge engineering students significantly more for a bachelor's degree than it charges English majors.

UNL Chancellor Harvey Perlman is scheduled to present a “differential tuition” proposal to the NU Board of Regents Friday.

Specific details are being kept under wraps until Friday's meeting. But the proposal is expected to allow UNL, for the first time, to charge more tuition for some undergraduate programs than for others.

Read more at: http://www.jaystoday.com/article/20110427/NEWS01/704279887

[valerief]

1. Where is the option that students shouldn't have to pay anything, that

the govt should provide payment for college?

[OmahaBlueDog]

2. I already know how that poll ends

FWIW, I agree with that viewpoint

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. +1,000,000!

[Nye Bevan]

13. Why should someone who chooses not to go to college have to pay for the tuition of those who do go,

out of their taxes?

[valerief]

14. Shoo, scat, go back to your natural habitat. nt

[Nye Bevan]

23. Your constructive feedback is always interesting and thought-provoking. Thank you (nt)

[OmahaBlueDog]

16. Because that individual enjoys the benefits of the doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers produced

by the school, as well as the higher taxes paid by the graduates who, statistically, will make more money.

It's like the "why should I pay property taxes if I don't have kids attending elementary and high school?" argument. It does not wash. You need those schools to produce the educated people to perform a variety of services you need and use.

[Nye Bevan]

21. So someone who goes from high school to a $30,000 per year assembly-line job

should pay for the college tuition of someone who gets a Harvard degree and becomes a banker earning six figures?

[XemaSab]

25. Harvard is a private school

You do understand the difference between public schools and private schools, right?

[Nye Bevan]

28. Post 1 just said "college", not "public college" (nt)

[Pithlet]

29. The old programs of yore

were almost always public colleges.

[OmahaBlueDog]

32. No, they're much better off with teachers, doctors, and lawyers with degrees off of matchbooks

Sheesh!:eyes:

[boppers]

45. So somebody in a "$30,000 per year assembly-line job" can afford to go to college.

And, you know, get a six figure job.

[DireStrike]

51. Point 1, it should be public colleges.

Point 2, a progressive tax structure would ensure that lower income Americans would be paying not very much (or nothing) for these kinds of services.

[RegieRocker]

54. So we should regress back to where only the wealthy can afford

college?

[EFerrari]

26. Because the whole community benefits from education. n/t

[OmahaBlueDog]

34. Oh, jeeze - the common good

Next, you'll suggest we should use gas taxes to build roads because we all benefit from efficient transportation. Or take perfectly good, undeveloped land and make parks.

[EFerrari]

36. LOL

[Very_Boring_Name]

39. I don't drive, why should my tax dollars go towards roads?

[boppers]

44. Ambulances and Fire trucks prefer roads.

Are you immortal and/or made of asbestos?

[Very_Boring_Name]

48. I don't use ambulances or fire trucks, why should my tax dollars go towards them?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. ...and to deliver people to doctors.

[valerief]

64. Why are you complaining about roads? Why aren't you complaining about WAR, where MOST of your money

goes?

[Very_Boring_Name]

66. I'm not complaining about roads. I was responding sarcastically to another poster

Whoosh, straight over your head.

[valerief]

70. You know, I hate when I responses that don't get my sarcasm, so you're right. It went whoosh. Oops.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. why should someone who chooses not to have children pay for k-12?

Why should anyone have to pay taxes at all?

[OmahaBlueDog]

52. Exactly - except for defense, everything should be charged out as user fees

All schools should charge tuition, all roads should charge toll, and it should all be run by the private sector.

You and I should go see "Atlas Shrugged" later today ;)

[Warren Stupidity]

67. Why exempt defense?

I am not getting any defense as far as I can tell. Just offense that I want no part of. The right-libbers always have some sacred cow or other where they decide that, after all, men with guns can take your gold from you.

[datasuspect]

91. because we live in a society that has really longstanding ideas about what constitutes social

goods.

being a member of society means that we pitch in to provide things that help the community in general.

[Taitertots]

89. They directly and indirectly benefit from being around educated people

[datasuspect]

90. i'm assuming you're over the age of 18

and i don't think it would make sense to explain the concept of the "common weal" to you if you don't already understand it.

[TBF]

94. For the greater good ...

ie you actually care what happens outside of your suburban enclave.

[donheld]

46. +1000

[Warren Stupidity]

49. off the table

[doc03]

3. Why should the courses that result in a higher salary be

reserved only for the students that have more money in the first place? Doesn't sound fair to me.

[buddysmellgood]

4. It costs more to educate engineers than it does liberal arts students.

One could argue that liberal arts students should not have to fund the educations of engineers.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

10. I think engineering students usually do pay more money in lab fees...

They have a lot of lab classes. Often they have to take more credits overall to get their degrees too... so I think it is normal for them to spend more to get their degrees... but I wouldn't expect the amount of tuition charged per credit hour to differ between bachelor degree programs at the same university. I don't think liberal arts majors are footing the bill for the engineering majors in any way.

[buddysmellgood]

22. Most big ten universities charge more for engineering courses just as

medical schools and other professional schools do. In addition to labs and equipment, there is a poaching game for engineering professors. It cost a lot to keep them.

[bluestate10]

87. Exactly. Lab costs are extra. Engineering and Science undergrads already

pay a lot more.

[etherealtruth]

93. Tell me about it

Add to that the hours spent in labs for which there are no credit hours awarded.

[Lucian]

5. I don't like this.

To me, it's saying that only those who can afford it should be able to go into engineering programs or other science programs while poorer students should go into majors that don't pay as much.

[Pithlet]

9. I agree.

It certainly wouldn't do much for upward mobility, that's for sure. It would be a shame for someone with the ability and desire for a profession to be priced out of it and deemed only worthy of a lower profession and class.

[etherealtruth]

84. + Infinity

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

7. Engineering students have to work harder for their degrees...

that should be enough. There's no guarantee that they will make more money with an engineering degree... I think a lot of engineers are underpaid for their work these days.

[Lucian]

17. I'm an anthropology major...

and you saying engineers work harder for their degree is degrading my degree. I've been working my ass off to get my degree.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Degree of difficulty is always contentious but clearly the bar is higher for some than others

[WatsonT]

60. Anthropology is easy

Jesus created Adam and Eve perfectly formed as modern humans about 6000 years ago.

It's mostly just memorizing a bunch of "begats".

[jp11]

8. No, not unless the universities are willing to guarantee salaries for

students they charge extra on the premise that they should be able to make more than someone who paid less for their education because their field is a lower paying one. OR of course if someone with one of those 'cheap' degrees ends up making more than someone with a more expensive degree. Those who studied in higher wage degree field should also be able to sue the school because someone with a 'lesser' degree makes more than they do if they have to pay more cause they are expected to make more money.

It is a really dumb idea, *IF* the costs are too great to offer the course you want you either raise tuition for everyone, split the school because too many 'expensive' degree majors enroll and raise their tuition or you stop accepting so many 'expensive' degree majors, if not some other solution.

Tuition costs should not be dictated by how much you are expected to earn only the costs for the institution granting them, as in teachers, facilities, etc.

[yurbud]

35. yep, pay more then see that job out-sourced or attacked the way teachers currently are

[CoffeeCat]

11. I know plenty of business and engineering majors...

...who can't find work, are laid off--or they didn't end up making as much money
as many of my fellow journalism majors.

An engineering degree, on average, will yield higher-paying jobs. However, a woman with whom I went
through journalism school is now a CNN anchor and has written a best-selling
book. Would it have been fair for her to pay less than the engineering student,
when she ends up a millionaire?

There are plenty of very wealthy people who didn't major in engineering or business.

Furthermore, I bet no one will charge these higher fees to those majoring in
biology. Many of them will go on to med school and make quadruple what an
engineer would make.

What about those pesky undergrads who major in philosophy, political science,
english or economics? I bet we don't charge them extra, but many of them
will attend law school, work for large law firms, make hefty six-figure
salaries and then run for President. It's an outrage!

You get my point. This is ridiculous and artibrary. It's just another way
for universities to gouge us.

[Nikia]

12. Salaries are high when a skill is in demand

The state should be encouraging rather than discouraging students to go into fields that are in demand. This allows companies to fullfill vacancies without having to hire foreign workers. This could also decrease unemployment/underemployment since students will have specialized skills that puts them into competition with others with those skills rather than the general population.

[Cerridwen]

15. I'm of the opinion that all education should be taxpayer funded

as is done in civilized, first world countries. Cradle to grave.

A well educated and knowledgeable populace is crucial to a successful country.

I feel the same about health care.

I think I was born in the wrong country.

[formernaderite]

24. There are great differences...

Most kids here would never get into college, if european standards or standards used in the rest of the world were the criteria. They weed out the kids who are college bound by age 12. The great thing about our system is it allows late bloomers the ability to still make it. As a college counselor told my son, there is literally a college for every student here.

[Cerridwen]

27. Based on our current system, perhaps.

As I said, cradle to grave; that would give plenty of time for 'late bloomers' to 'catch up' and/or qualify.

Our current system is FUBAR. Perhaps if we changed our focus we could achieve a well-educated populace; of those who are so inclined. I also think we have to re-arrange our thinking about knowledge, wisdom, education and such. That, however, would be for another thread and for a much longer post. :)

[formernaderite]

63. the point being with so many fewer

initial acceptances into University.... the cost is not quite as large for the state. In Europe, students who don't have an Ivy League equivalent GPA upon graduating, don't get right in. Instead they have to sit out up to ten semesters. To combat this a two tier system has quietly been building, newer Private (pay) Universities have been created.

[Cerridwen]

71. Thanks for the reply. I'll go with pithlet on this,

there's no requirement to go with the European model. Perhaps a new model could be created.

My main point is that money should never be a barrier to a person acquiring whatever education or skill set they want/need/show aptitude for. I recently skimmed through a brief bio about Jonas Salk. At any point in his career, we could have lost the man who would discover the polio vaccine; simply because he was Jewish. We need to remove barriers to education; whether the education is college or apprentice programs or community college or art school or dance school... But, that's just my pie in the sky view.

Of course, since this is all just idle talk as the US and its citizens can't see beyond the almighty dollar, it really doesn't matter. *sigh*

[Pithlet]

31. Who says the European standards have to be followed.

States that used to pay for their residents didn't apply those standards.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. I could see course costs aligning with the costs to provide them

Lab fees cover expendables, but do not address the cost to build the facilities. A building designed to support EE or Chem labs cost more than one geared towards liberal arts. Same would go for any class that has a higher expense profile...some art classes like ceramics perhaps.

[bluestate10]

88. Or have alums pay for the facilities. If that happens, technical and

finance disciplines will have the best facilities. Your idea is bad on many fronts, the most important being that it will cause greater inequity between liberal arts majors and those in technical majors and finance. But at least you proposed a solution. To me the problem is complex. A solution would be to educate all students without charge. But in the last case, how do serious students get sorted out from those just getting a free college experience before they flunk out.

[blogslut]

20. Other

My belief is that, in America, our state universities and community colleges should provide free education to students.

[Orrex]

30. Other: lenders should be required to provide an amortization schedule for student loans

And schools should be forbidden to make bullshit statements like "you can do anything you want with a Liberal Arts degree."

[OmahaBlueDog]

33. Don't.Get.Me.Started

(Note: I have a liberal arts degree. I can tell you all about how "useful" it is)

[JI7]

37. there are just so many reasons why this is a horrible idea

it will only hurt those who are less well off.

[franzia99]

38. Hell no. Tuition is already way too high as it is.

[pinkkillersheep]

40. We already have a hard enough time getting students to be STEM majors

Why would we want to incentivize low wage degrees? Not to mention how it would effect minorities.

[Maru Kitteh]

41. Dumb-ass idea Harvey, you'll just send your best and brightest to other states to study.

dumb dumb dumb

We have a hard enough time keeping our top grads in the state the way it is.

[OmahaBlueDog]

42. Not to mention Nebraska desperately needs profesionals like engineers and large animal vets

Not to drag sports into this, but part of the reason we ostensibly joined the Big-10 was to show that NU is a research university that belongs right up there with Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, and tOSU.

[Maru Kitteh]

43. My SO is a manager in the facilities dept at one of the three campuses. 1/2 million dollars were

wasted last year alone in over-use fees from the electric and water utilities due entirely to sloppy-ass management by the heating plant because the head of that facility promoted his fire department/hunting/drinking buddy to a supervisory position when the man cannot even find his own gleuteal area with two hands and a photograph.

Drunken idiot supervisor --> lack of supervision ---> unproductive chaos --> repeated broken closed-system water lines & mismanaged, poorly attended boilers(!) ---> over $500,000 dollars washed out to the Platte river and up in coal-fired smoke of Nebraska tax-payer dollars.



:hurts:

Oh yes - let's drive out more of our promising students, who needs all the mathy, sciencey stuff.

[MissB]

47. It's been 15 years since I received my B.S. In civil engineering but

Even back then we were hit up for higher fees merely because we were engineering students.

I don't like the idea of higher tuition for engineering students. Sorry, but a class in structural analysis isn't going to be vastly different from university to university. The lecture courses for engineering won't vary much; it's the hands on labs that will vary depending on various factors such as research university vs non research university. I can see paying higher lab fees at schools where the hands on courses have more bells and whistles, but then again research universities typically have corporate support.

[Shrek]

53. Schools are already doing this

My son's tuition bill for next semester has one line item for tuition, plus additional line items for each of the two business courses he's taking:



I wouldn't be surprised if the Engineering department does the same thing.

[RegieRocker]

55. College course price should be based on complexity.

[a la izquierda]

56. Would probably have helped me...

I was a history major. I've done three degrees. 100K in debt. It'll get paid, because I chose not to have kids, and I fortunately live cheaper now than I did when I was in California and my first couple years here.
Here's the thing, though. Advanced degrees for the sciences/math, like a PhD, often take significantly less time than liberal arts PhDs, hence less debt (but more money in the end). This is NOT the case for JDs and MDs, of course, which cost more, but they make more at the end of the road (usually).

Eh, it's early. I feel like I'm talking myself out of a bag.

[surrealAmerican]

57. So, would that mean that ...

... if you're an art major, the school would be paying you?


In all seriousness, this is a bad idea: it will prevent less wealthy students from training to qualify for potentially higher-income professions.

[Freddie Stubbs]

58. A more sensible policy would charge less tuition for degrees which lead to more in-demand careers

[nomb]

65. It should have always been so. Discount or "full ride" that which we need, social workers, teachers

[WatsonT]

59. So that only richer people can get an education that makes you rich?

Sure, that won't end badly.

Shoe-shining degrees will still be cheap right? What about rag-picking?

[Orrex]

61. Most degrees are *already* shoe-shining degrees

They simply don't call them that, because that would hurt the bottom line of universities trying to rope in unsuspecting students who believe the bullshit about the self-evident benefit of an expensive degree.

[WatsonT]

62. At 18 they're old enough to do their own research

my college had stats on how much graduates in each field average after 5-10 years.

[Orrex]

69. Ah, yes. The "I've got mine, Jack" mentality

Bully for you for having access to that information. When I went to school, the mantra was "you can do whatever you want with your degree," which is--strictly speaking--true, as long as "whatever you want" is to wipe your ass with it.

With the possible exception of you, nearly every person I've ever talked to on the subject was a victim of the college hard-sell. Yes, 18-year-olds can do the research, but there is nothing at all in our schools, culture, or society that prepares them to do so. If you were fortunate enough to have that opportunity, then I say good for you.

But don't make the callous mistake of thinking that everyone who didn't have access to your resources was foolish or lazy or neglectful.

[WatsonT]

72. Anyone who goes in thinking their philosophy major is going to net them a six figure salary

is a fool and would likely fail in life no matter what resources were available to them.

Do you honestly think 18+ year olds are unaware that doctors, lawyers, engineers, tend to make more than most other degrees? I mean they might not be the brightest people around but they aren't that stupid.

Perhaps we could tell them what degrees they should take, for their own good of course.

And then once they get out they will still be unprepared to make any decisions so they could be told what career choices are best.

We could tell them when it's right to start a family or look for a better job or buy a new car or . . .

Free will is difficult, sometimes people make mistakes.

[Orrex]

73. That's a straw man

I don't suspect that anyone expects a philosophy degree to net six figures, but prospective students are fed the bullshit line that a college degree will lead to $1M greater lifetime earnings versus a non-degree worker.

The university-based profit-generating machine has spent billions of dollars in PR and propaganda to foster the image of college as the road to success, and this certainly hasn't been true in the past ten years at least, if it was ever true.

Perhaps we could tell them what degrees they should take, for their own good of course.

And then once they get out they will still be unprepared to make any decisions so they could be told what career choices are best.

So you're arguing that colleges shouldn't actually educate students, and should instead take advantage of the students' ignorance?

That's a commendable business model.

Free will is difficult, sometimes people make mistakes.

You're one of those "boot-strap" types, aren't you? People do indeed make mistakes, especially when a child from a low-income family is victimized by a multi-billion dollar industry and driven into lifelong inescapable debt. Free will would be a fuck of a lot less difficult if people who attempt to exercise their free will weren't preyed upon by aggressive lenders and bottom-liners.

[WatsonT]

75. I have bad news for you

outside of college many people will tell you things that are not entirely true to get you to buy their products.

The amount of skepticism you employ should be based on the outlandishness of the claim and the amount of money you're putting in.

For instance: axe body spray will not force hundreds of hot women to have sex with you.

Nor will diet coke make you thin.

And staying at a holiday inn express doesn't actually make you a genius.

[Orrex]

76. Well no shit

However, one would hope that an institution of learning, especially schools that receives a huge federal subsidies, would be held to a higher standard than Bob from the EnZyte commercials.

[WatsonT]

79. They are

If a college promises you that no matter what you are majoring in you will make tremendous sums of money they are lying, and that doesn't generally happen. I haven't seen any legit college that claims that. Can you provide sources for this?

You seem to be angry that you aren't told in advance exactly how your life will turn out. I'm sorry but colleges can't do that.

[Orrex]

80. Again, you misrepresent me.

If a college promises you that no matter what you are majoring in you will make tremendous sums of money they are lying, and that doesn't generally happen. I haven't seen any legit college that claims that. Can you provide sources for this?

You're asking me to provide a source for your misrepresentation of my statement? :wtf:

Nowhere have I asserted that colleges make any definitive statement like that, so what's your point? The college machine most certainly misrepresents the profitability of having a degree, and it certainly benefits from that misrepresentation. The fact that they don't use ironclad, legally binding guarantees on the subject doesn't mean that they aren't misrepresenting.

You seem to be angry that you aren't told in advance exactly how your life will turn out.

No, I'm angry that people bend over backwards to excuse and endorse the predatory actions of colleges because young adults without the benfit of a multi-million dollar legal department "should have known better."

[WatsonT]

92. Your comments on post 86

show that the problem lies with you.

You know some people who are unlikely to earn a million more in their lifetimes due to education, hence the claim is a lie.

I guess you don't realize the definition of an "average".

Perhaps you were cheated out of an education by your college. . . .

[Orrex]

96. Uh.. What?

My comment on post 86 was a link to an article that destroys the claim that a college education will net you $1M than non-degreed workers. How is that showing that the problem lies with me? Did I somehow misrepresent census data to make it seem as though the product that I'm selling is worth far more than it really is? No? Then what the hell are you talking about?

Or are you misrepresenting my stance simply so that you can accuse me of misrepresentation? :wtf:

[Warren Stupidity]

78. $1M greater lifetime earnings

That is not terribly far off. Around a 20K/yr bump average for college degree vs no college degree.

40 years * 20,000 = ~800,000 lifetime. not insignificant.

[Orrex]

83. I call bullshit.

Not on you, but on those statistics. I know a great many college graduate who sure as shit won't be $1M ahead of their non-degreed peers when the game is over.

Incidentally, do those statistics apply across all degrees in all states? Or do they compare a the earnings of a physician with a degree versus a physician without one?

[Warren Stupidity]

85. average means average

so yes of course individual experience will vary greatly. The stats are not bullshit. From the us census 2000 study:


Adults ages 25 to 64 who worked at any time during the study period earned an average of $34,700 per
year. Average earnings ranged from $18,900 for high school dropouts to $25,900 for high school
graduates, $45,400 for college graduates, and $99,300 for workers with professional degrees


If you consider that all low skill non-service jobs are in direct competition in our global economy with countries with far lower pays scales, these numbers just get worse over time.

The 2011 data is here: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0228.pdf

It hasn't changed the basic picture at all.

[Orrex]

86. Here's a discussion of this very same subject:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-question-youre-not-asking-should-you-go-to-college/

You may scoff at the source, but IMO the article makes a strong case. In brief, a professional degree is worth your time, but non-professional degrees? Not so much.

[Nikia]

95. At my liberal arts college, they did suggest that we could get a variety of jobs

In business and non profit organizations with liberal arts degrees. Some businesses are open to liberal arts majors and some even recruited on campus.
I think that every college should require meetings with a career advisor to help them weigh their options in education and future career plans. If they want to pursue liberal arts study and a business career, they might need advice on how to make that happen and have a contigency plan to pursue a MBA if they should have trouble receiving job offers.

[fizzgig]

68. colorado state university has higher fees and additional tuition for cetain classes/colleges

i got my degree there in 03 and, if i remember what i paid correctly, it's about twice for a resident to attend csu now. they're nickle and diming these kids to pieces. engineering students have to pay an extra $170 a semester, natural resources/sciences students have to pay an extra $100 a semester. upperclassmen have to pay an additional $4.35 per credit. students taking chemistry, physics, art, dance, journalism, food science and a whole mess of other courses have to pay an extra $6.55 per credit.

i wouldn't go back to college now

[Spike89]

74. Salaries and academic study already link too much

On the face, it seems to make sense, but it ignores the reality that sometimes the market (salaries) has a form of wisdom. In other words, when there is a shortage of engineers, engineering salaries go up, engineering becomes a more attractive area of study and society gets their needed engineers in a few years. If you short circuit this by sliding the cost of an engineering degree way up, you not only keep engineers rare (and thus even higher paid, resulting in ever increasing tuition, etc.).

The worst part is that the best paying jobs would only be available to rich kids who could afford the premium degree tracks. We're already seeing some of this with too many students forced to choose colleges they can afford, rather than the schools that offer them the best chances of a strong career in the field they are best at.

Make tuition free/affordable and if you must control the degrees awarded from the school level (as opposed to from the career level), do so my making certain fields more rigorous. For instance, we do this with medical doctors--you must get good grades, take a lot of tough classes, and finish high among your peers to get into the more lucrative/attractive fields.

[bigwillq]

81. No (nt)

[RandomThoughts]

82. You think you can decide that.

:rofl:

Function not data.

:rofl:

Thanks for the laugh, I laughed out loud on that one.