NATO rejects TALKS. Targets Gaddafi Family with major strikes during LIVE address. SON KILLED

[Distant Observer]

Even as the Libyan leader was speaking live on TV offering negotiations, NATO planes dropped massive bombs at multiple locations where the Gaddafi family were likely present.

Gaddafi son reportedly killed

I guess this is pretty personal.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/nato-rejects-offer-by-libyan-leader-muammar-gaddafi-for-talks-aimed-at-ending-war/story-e6frg6so-1226047722654

NATO rejects offer by Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi for talks aimed at ending war

REBELS and NATO have dismissed an offer by Muammar Gaddafi for talks to end Libya's conflict, as the defiant strongman's forces pressed an offensive against the key port city of Misrata.

And three loud explosions were heard last night from the direction of Bab al-Aziziya, the area where the Gaddafi compound is located, as NATO jets overflew the capital Tripoli.

In an early-morning speech on state television, the Libyan leader said NATO “must abandon all hope of his departure”.

“I have no official functions to give up: I will not leave my country and will fight to the death,” he said.

But he added a conciliatory note.

“We are ready to talk with France and the United States, but with no preconditions,” Colonel Gaddafi said.

[tabasco]

1. Ahhhhh.... the peace loving Ghadaffi.

Funniest post I've read in awhile.

Try again Sparky.

[Distant Observer]

2. Could anyone be so bloodthirsty to find this funny?

[tabatha]

4. How about the 10,000+ killed by Gaddafi?

Have you seen what he did to Misrata?

That is what bloodthirsty means - unless you look upon them as rats.

[Distant Observer]

6. Misrata bloodshed was started by massive rebel violence. THE BLOOD IS ON THEIR HANDS.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Distant Observer]

10. Don't you pay attention. Group of rebels in Misrata saying they need to go BACK TO BENGHAZI for a

break from the fighting.

The fighting in Misrata was planned from Benghazi as was most of the bloody insurrection.

The rebels have used indiscriminate blasting away at cities with no reproach from the Western media or their happy supporters who don't seem to care who is killed by their RPGs, missiles or bombs.

[tabatha]

12. Another bunch of complete and utter BS.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/magazine/mag-03Libya-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&adxnnlx=1304179217-5XdhvQfahiirN5PYeH5Hyw

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tabatha]

24. Jeez, no wonder you get so much wrong.

Not BBC, but New York Times.

[Distant Observer]

77. Dear Tabatha. You must realize that I don't invent facts. Please moderate the pretense

[inna]

190. pure projection on your part

[cliffordu]

38. LOL. DUMBEST POST OF THE DAY.......

And THAT is REALLY saying something......

[Distant Observer]

40. I guess those who support continuing of the killing have to find humor in the horror

[cliffordu]

41. Nope. Just your take on the entire mess......

Good luck with that.....

[bobbolink]

51. O.M.G. Now "progressives" vilify those wanting freedom and democracy.

O.M.G.

[Distant Observer]

71. Rebels REJECTED African Uniion proposal for Internationally supervised ELECTIONS

I don't believe the armed faction the West is arming and supporting with air strikes could win a
national election in Libya.

But would love if they would stop killing their enemies and prove me wrong.

[bobbolink]

72. By your rules, the 13 colonies never should have revolted.

[Distant Observer]

144. Analogy would be SPAIN and FRANCE invading Britain and seeking to massacre the Eng aristocracy

[bobbolink]

164. LOL

:crazy:

[WinkyDink]

151. Just because we are Americans doesn't mean we must agree that the rebellion was good and proper.

After all, as a colony, we would have been part of that "Britain ends slavery in 1833" thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833

[Mimosa]

75. ^ Exactly ^

There has never been any proof of Gaddafi having done what he's accused of. This is a CIA backed coup.

[dipsydoodle]

141. For "rebels" perhaps read

bunch of complete wasters who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

Yes - in terms of cause and effect the blood is on their hands.

[Distant Observer]

187. Agreed, Most of the bloody killing is likely from Coalition air strikes.

[dionysus]

203. omfg...

:rofl:

[TheMadMonk]

25. How about the extra 2 zeros needed to approach the US effort in Iraq.

Did you happen to notice what the US did to Faluja a while back? Oh and how many two headed babies is Misrata turning out these days?

Have you noticed that the average amount of progress the US brings to places it "liberates" is about NEGATIVE twenty to fifty years?

Gaddafi is indisputably a nasty piece of work. But really? Compared to what insurance companies in the US get up to, he's a bloody amateur.


Who was it that go together with his oil buddies and divied up the Iraqi oil fields even before the first excuse for war was put forward? That my friend is truly BLOODTHIRSTY.

[tabatha]

30. I do believe that the NATO effort in Libya

is not driven by anything other than humanitarian reasons.

I have seen the following that leads me to believe that

a) The opposition is being allowed to form their own government without any outside interference. In fact, for a long time, there was doubt about who the opposition really was.

b) There (UN) will be no boots on the ground, meaning invasion.

c) They are not arming the rebels.

d) The US has given money to the rebels for non-military use.

e) They are being very careful about hitting civilians, and have aborted a number of missions because of possible problems.

f) The French are using bombs made of concrete rather than explosive ordnance.

g) There was also a statement that DU was not being used.

h) The US got out of the flying missions as fast as it could.

i) I do not believe a thing that Gaddafi says.


Just my point of view based on the many, many articles I have read.

[tabatha]

3. Yep, just like the lie that Hana was killed

and turned up studying medicine in Tripoli.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tabatha]

9. You missed the point.

I am watching the tweets and a great number of them think this is a lie, just as he lied about Hana.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cali_Democrat]

11. Why would NATO reject talks?

Because those US military puppets aren't interested in peace!

They want to test out their fancy smart bombs.

[Distant Observer]

13. There is a SAD EUROPEAN HISTORY of preference to massacres of the eneny rather than granting any

respect or concessions. Once you have done the propaganda do demonize the enemy it is policy not to talk until you kill him or so many are dead the war gets unpopular.

Look at Vietnam. Millions killed to maintain American pride.

[tabatha]

16. I did not support

Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan. In fact, I have stated more than once, that the most killing done by any nation has been done by the US.

However, I think Gaddafi is a murderous thug. Just as the Apartheid regime was a murderous regime.

Happy to see them both go into the dustbin of history.

[sabrina 1]

42. NATO are murderous thugs. Just look at what they are doing

in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and with the help of the current dictator of Yemen, what they were doing there.

If someone is in need of help, the very last place they should be looking for it is from NATO. They do NOT care about the people and if Afghanistan's peace movement, Iraq's and now Pakistan's doesn't mean anything to you in terms of any altruistic motivivation of NATO, then there is nothing anyone can say to stop you from supporting what will turn out to be another Iraq. It cannot turn out differently when the very same gang are behind this.

As for the rebels, what happened to the original rebels who were demanding 'no Western intervention because we do not want Libya to become another Iraq, destroyed and brutalized by foreign intervention'. How come we don't hear from them since the outsiders took over??

This is exactly the same recipe, the 'expats' included, that led to the invasion of Iraq.

I could never support another Iraq. Those people are now being shot and tortured just for holding peaceful protests to try to get jobs and fair treatment from the puppet government installed by the very same people who are now in Libya.

Not to mention, it is vitally important to the Western powers to stop the spread of what happened in Egypt and Tunisia and the very best way to do that is to establish a puppet government, like Iraq's right in the middle of those two countries.

What is going on in Bahrain and Syria and Yeman is equally bad, but the West is doing nothing to stop it. Why? Because they support dictators, always have and always will.

[Iterate]

47. You were completely in favor of this revolution until they needed help

Do you value your enemies more than your friends?

[sabrina 1]

191. I was completely in favor of the people of Libya

gaining equal rights like the people of Egytp and Tunisia, until I discovered how involved Western powers have been in this from way back, at least as far as last Fall. And until the revolution was taken over by outsiders connected to those Western Powers. Iow, until the peaceful revolution was taken over and some of the original rebels expressed their own sense of betrayal and their opposition to the current 'leadership'.

It is not easy to admit to being wrong about something as important as this, but I was wrong. And I agree with the rebels and did even then, that the last thing they wanted was foreign intervention in their country. Now, that is pretty much guaranteed, the same kind of intervention as Iraq.

And what do you think is going to happen after they kill Qaddafi and his entire family in Libya? Have you thought any of this through? Do you think those who are opposed to foreign intervention as most Libyans are and always have been, will simply accept the new, Western installed puppet government, or will this revolution continue with people dying every day, just like Iraq?

This was not what I thought it was in the beginning, even though I believe the demonstrators we were supporting thought it was a genuine, grassroots uprising also. We were wrong, it's that simple.

[Distant Observer]

159. NATO is not all bad, but we do forget the bloody atrocities Europeans were willing to commit

when their interests or national objectives have been threatened in the past.

[GSLevel9]

162. just a quick off-topic.

But I hope you don't REALLY mean that the US "is responsible for the most killing by any nation"

Because on it's face that'd be a silly claim. In the 20th Century, Germany and the USSR certainly have that honor. Prior to the 20th Century any number of nations could claim that position.

[tabatha]

14. NATO said they wanted to see actions not words.

Gaddafi has declared a ceasefire at least 4 times - and did NOT stop bombing, and used that time to move troops into position.

My question -- is why did Gaddafi shoot (with heavy weaponry) unarmed protesters back in February. If he wanted peace why did he not ask those peaceful protesters to sit down and have peaceful talks?

There was an uprising in the late 1990s and all 1200 protesters were shot in one day. Why not talk peace then?

Early on, Gaddafi had public hangings for anyone who as much as talked about opposition to him.

[Distant Observer]

15. Ceasefire and talk ONLY HAPPEN IF BOTH SIDES AGREE, The rebels REJECT all the time.

[tabatha]

18. No, the point is if you declare a

ceasefire, and the other side stops defending themselves believing that what you said was true, and you don't stop --- then you are lying.

[Distant Observer]

73. The poor defenceless rebels have NEVER ACCEPTED A CEASEFIRE

They seem to enjoy killing.

LIBYA: Rebels execute black immigrants while forces kidnap others

http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels-execute-black-immigrants-while-forces-kidnap-others-20586
UN High Commission for Refugees: accounts of intimidation and rape by rebel insurgents coming from people who had fled both eastern and western areas of Libya.
http://www.unhcr.org/4d7658719.html
Rebel rule of Benghazi included terror, rape and murder of black civilians
http://www.barutiwadaily.com/afrocapitalist/article.php?story=61

[dionysus]

204. keep digging.

[Posteritatis]

31. All Qadaffi has to do is stop shelling cities. (nt)

[Distant Observer]

35. The rebel are shelling as much as Gaddafi forces. Those Massive Mulitple Rocket Launchers are not

precisions weapons the Rebels are using to take cities in the East or attack Gaddafi forces. A lot of people are being killed by the rebels in this civil war.

[Hannah Bell]

112. lol. sure. not the first time we've tried to kill him; first time was a quarter century ago.

not the first time we've killed members of his family.

yet we put him into power.

like saddam.

moral: don't trust the west.

[Distant Observer]

17. Nato is certainly show ACTIONS -- the KILL CHILDREN deliberately in bloody arrogance

[tabatha]

19. NATO has been very careful to avoid civilian casualties.

And there have been no civilian casualties up till now, and only if what Gaddafi says is true, which I doubt.

However, Gaddafi has killed T H O U S A N D S of innocent Libyan civilians - why are you not shouting in capital letters about that?

[Distant Observer]

22. Totally false. Even EVIDENCE OF NATO KILLING civilian in Brega from Brittish doctor

Even ignoring all the bombs dropped on Tripoli and Sirte, assume all the civilian deaths reported by Libyan Gov are invented and there are no "collateral deaths" from massive bombing.

Why is it so important to tell lies to cover the Western-backed killings? In any civil war many people are killed on both sides. By supporting the civil war you are supporting killing. Why pretend otherwise?

[tabatha]

23. NO reporter has ever seen any evidence

and they have never been shown any evidence.

NATO did kill some rebel troops.

[Bosonic]

28. Once again fact-blind BS

A coalition air strike has killed seven civilians and injured 25 injured, according to a doctor working with rebel forces

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8422271/Libya-coalition-air-strike-kills-seven-civilians.html

[tabatha]

32. It appears that I missed that report.

However, I was thinking about Tripoli, where I read that reporters in Tripoli had seen no evidence of civilian casualties.
And that remains true, unless you can find a report about casualties in Tripoli.

[Distant Observer]

43. Actually believe that ONLY COLLATERAL DEATHS are rebel soldiers and civilians attended by Brittish

doctor. Wow, the coalition missiles are so precise, they only kill their own people when they miss a target or have bad information on their targets. WOW WOW WOW. And some believe this shit.

Disgusting pretense. Fact is that only those deaths are reported in Western media. They dismiss all the killings committed by the rebels or reported by the Government -- those are not real people.

[tabatha]

50. I am waiting for the ICC report.

They are investigating. Then the truth will come out.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

113. oh bullshit.

[tabatha]

20. See #17. I replied to the wrong message, I think.

[tabatha]

27. ICC report on LIbya

There is to be some sort of statement on May 4th, and also later in June.

But, the ICC has solid evidence that when Gaddafi saw what was happening in Tunisia and Egypt and was concerned about it spreading to Libya, he decided, before the protests even happened, that he was going to put them down with force - they were not going to step aside as happened in Tunisia and Egypt.

[bahrbearian]

46. Talks are like trails, thats were the thruth comes out, wouldn't what that

[Cleita]

58. That newspaper is a Ruppert Murdoch rag so you

can't trust it.

[Distant Observer]

143. Funny! Most world media is OWNED by Leaders of the Coalition - Saudi, Qatar, and Western Moguls.

We can't trust any of these media fully on the subject of interest here since we are in the middle of a major information operation.

[Cleita]

157. I find Al Jazeera (Qatar) to be pretty reputable in their

reporting and they say there is skepticism whether this actually happened since there has been no confirmation by other sources. There have been no bodies shown or names released to the media other than that of Saif al Arab Gaddafi, which usually the Libyan government does. And there is this:

ttp://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/05/01/3204762.htm

But in the rebel capital Benghazi, where a parallel government is gearing up to take the reins should Mr Gaddafi be ousted or killed, it is suspected that news of death is nothing more than propaganda from the Tripoli regime.

"I don't believe it because it is all on the Libya channels and that is all lies," said Mohammed Dahash, 25, who works in a mobile phone shop.

"I don't think it is true because since February 17 everything Gaddafi has said has been lies," said salesman Ahmed Sidan, 20, evoking the start date of the anti-regime demonstrations that escalated into violent conflict.

"He did it before: in 1986 he said his daughter was killed but she is still alive," Mr Sidan said of Mr Gaddafi's claim that his adopted child, Hanna, was killed in an air raid ordered by then-US president Ronald Reagan.

"Gaddafi always lies," said Alsharifa Warfali, 48, a mother of seven.

"But if Seif is dead, so what? We've lost hundreds of sons in Benghazi. Gaddafi's son is not extra special."

So it seems Ghaddafi could be doing this to get sympathy and you all are falling for it hook, line and sinker. When NATO or other reputable sources confirm that Ghaddafi's son and grandchildren were killed, then I will be outraged, not before.

ttp://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/05/01/3204762.htm

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. I think it was personal when Reagan's airstrikes killed Qaddafi's 3 year old daughter, back when

Some of us remember.

[Cleita]

158. Evidently she's still alive.

ttp://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/05/01/3204762.htm

[Distant Observer]

165. EVIDENTLY?? Where is the evidence. This sounds like the depths of "Gaddafi is a Jew" or "Birther"

conspiratorial madness.

For the sake of sanity, please keep to serious issues.

[inna]

29. jeez, it's fucking surreal to read some of the comments

(lol, don't take it personally or get frustrated - this is just what they do... :shrug: )



K&R and thanks for the thread - and... i just have to say one thing:



Hands Off Libya, damn it. Not in MY name.

[tabatha]

33. Wait for the ICC reports.

[tabatha]

34. Yep, this is fucking surreal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JznWRJ7zs5o&feature=youtu.be

[Distant Observer]

36. And who started this civil war? The bloody Benghazi rebels grabbing for power and oil control

[Posteritatis]

53. Or, y'know, Qadaffi machinegunning demonstrators. (nt)

[Fool Count]

109. Exactly! What a crock that "peaceful demonstrators" story is.

In Benghazi the "rebels" intended to take the military compound from day one. On day two they were
killing Libyan soldiers there. Here is their own account of the events related to a Canadian
journalist: http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/03/04/inside-liberated-libya/2/
Peaceful my ass. Murderous is more like it. So those Libyan soldiers were supposed to die without
even trying to defend themselves? To say nothing of defending their country from being taken
over by a bloody gang of foreign retainers. And they are supposed to stop defending their country
now because France/UK/US say so? And NATO really thinks they will stop fighting for their
country after they kill Qaddafi and all his decedents? Really? Then they are going to get very
unpleasantly surprised. Again.

[Distant Observer]

202. The militant nature of the Cyrenaican opposition is WELL ESTABLISHED, yet their supporters insist

on inventing fictional stories to justify the uncompromising and ruthless, militancy of the rebels.

[David__77]

45. It's a pro-war coterie.

It's not very strange. There are always supporters of imperialism

[joshcryer]

63. "pro-war" is more loaded than "pro-abortion"

No one wants war who supports the Libyans, we would have all preferred that Gaddafi stepped down like the US-backed Ben Ali or Mubarak.

[David__77]

86. No more loaded than the "pro-Gaddafi" term regularly used by some.

Yes, nominally "no one wants war," because they would prefer their enemies to voluntarily abdicate power. But this is a truism. But I will accept that not all the pro-rebel individuals are pro-imperialist or even pro-intervention per se.

[joshcryer]

98. The term "pro-Gaddafi" is at least directly supported by ones actions.

If you saw no reason to "intervene in Benghazi" the end result is Gaddafi crushing any resistance over a long period of time, and ... being still in power. This position is ardently pro-Gaddafi.

[David__77]

117. It is not a label that makes me cringe certainly.

No more than "pro-abortion" or "anti-America." I will proudly bear those labels, as well as "pro-Gaddafi." If defense of national sovereignty makes me "pro-Gaddafi," then so be it. I will gladly be "pro-Assad," as I suppose I was also "pro-Mubarak." I would happily see the collapse of globalism and the superstructure of one world government, treaties, fora and all.

Even if I ideologically supported the Libyan rebels, which I do not, I would have the same position as regards US foreign policy, though I would be sympathetic to their tactical needs. But, I stress, I do not believe that my ideological support or lack thereof for Libyan rebels or for Gaddafi should be relevant - I do not want external subversion and interference by the United States and the military alliances in which it participates.

It's quite a debate on the nature of the state and on international relations that may ultimately be settled by force of arms, one way or the other.

[inna]

139. yep, i get that part. my comment was mostly rhetorical. :)

[MasonJar]

39. Three grandsons killed and Gates says we won't stop. Is this about

oil or currency? It surely isn't humanitarian. That is a bald faced lie or we wouldn't be killing innocent children.

[Iterate]

44. The revolution has many fonts.

[Distant Observer]

48. 3 Children Killed. Guess they were manning anti-aircraft site. The FRAUD of this is MONSTROUS

[Iterate]

55. One unhappy family is holding the whole nation hostage.

They don't want him. Period. Gone. They don't trust him, they don't trust any of them. Gaddafi will all be indicted soon as a war criminal. Accept it.

Self-determination is the root of democracy and nationhood. They burn the Green Book, stomp on his images, tear down his monuments. They hate him for what he's done to the country. Everywhere. They want their own government, free of him and his corruption. The only place Gaddafi has power is where the army spends the night. Accept it.

One family who's corrupt and illegitimate hold on power is keeping this from a peaceful resolution. How many is that? maybe a few thousand, plus one, if you include cronies and fanboys?

“The People’s Committees are Everywhere.”

[EFerrari]

62. That doesn't seem to be true.

Yesterday, over four hundred tribes asked the rebels to put down their arms.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/04/30/idINIndia-56679720110430

That is our government's narrative, though, as it is every time they do this sh!t.

[Iterate]

78. First ever poll of Libyan citizens

Eastern Libyans believe in national unity, distrust AU and Turkish mediation, survey reveals

The first free public opinion poll ever conducted in Libya shows that Eastern Libyans trust the Transitional National Council, firmly believe in national unity and don’t see the African Union or Turkey as neutral mediators.

...

The poll indicates that:

- 98 percent of the respondents do not support the division of Libya as a part of the political solution for the current conflict with the Gaddafi regime. Around 95 percent also don’t see any role for Gaddafi or his sons in a transitional period, and think it is impossible to implement any political reform in Libya if Gaddafi or one of his sons stays in power

- Around 96 percent of those polled, believe that the 17th of February revolution can consolidate the national unity of Libya and support the model of a democratic Libya based on a constitution which respects human rights

- The African Union is not seen as a neutral mediator to resolve the Libyan crisis by almost 97 percent of those surveyed. The Turkish government is only slightly less distrusted: 81 percent does not trust Turkey as a neutral mediator in the conflict

- Al-Qaeda has not played any role in the 17th of February revolution, say 94 percent of the Eastern Libyans, and 91 percent thinks it’s impossible for Al-Qaeda to play any political role in the new Libya

- Some 64 percent of the respondents are not satisfied with NATO’s performance in implementing UN Resolution 1973 – though it is unclear how many of those surveyed would like to see NATO doing more, or less. Three quarters of the Eastern Libyans think the concerns in Western countries about arming Libyan revolutionaries are not justified

- The National Transitional Council is seen by 92 percent of those surveyed as “expressing the views and wishes of Libyans for change”
http://english.libya.tv/2011/04/25/eastern-libyans-believe-in-national-unity-distrust-au-and-turkish-mediation-survey-reveals/

Granted it was in the eastern half, but give them a break, it's not like they could poll in Tripoli. If you want to dis the poll, fine, they are quite honest about its limitations. And it's the first one. Before the poll, observers who estimated anti-Gaddafi support at ~90% (when actually it was 95%), also estimated the anti-Gaddafi support in the west at about 80%-90%.

As far as that tribal declaration, it happened in response to one a few days before from "tribes" calling for Gaddafi to leave, one with a smaller number but bigger population. The one you cited was just yesterday, was Reuters repeating almost verbatim what had been on Libyan State TV (the same hacks who insist there is no gas shortage in Tripoli), and all Libyan writers that I've seen howled at it as nonsense. The 'tribal" structure is almost nonexistent, it doesn't mean what you might think it means, and they have little authority or persuasive power over most citizens.

In other words, it was nonsense state propaganda from a group of old men who wanted to get out of Tripoli alive. If you want me to dig out 100 sources on the complexities and subtleties of the old tribal system and spend a week writing it up, I'd be happy to. I doubt though that at the end of the exercise either of us would be half as knowledgeable as the average Libyan tweeter, reporter, or blogger who mocks it and repeats over and over that it doesn't matter, and that you can find pro and anti-Gaddafi support in any group.

When it comes to our government's narrative, I don't give a rat's ass what they say, I don't even listen. Same goes with US media. I learned to be wary when stores still had lunch counters and automatically being against it is just as bad as automatically accepting it.

[EFerrari]

93. Yes, that poll is skewed. n/t

[Distant Observer]

68. How about ELECTIONS rather than endless propaganda under cover of bombs

[Iterate]

82. This is as close as you'll get until Gaddafi leaves

Eastern Libyans believe in national unity, distrust AU and Turkish mediation, survey reveals

The first free public opinion poll ever conducted in Libya shows that Eastern Libyans trust the Transitional National Council, firmly believe in national unity and don’t see the African Union or Turkey as neutral mediators.

...

The poll indicates that:

- 98 percent of the respondents do not support the division of Libya as a part of the political solution for the current conflict with the Gaddafi regime. Around 95 percent also don’t see any role for Gaddafi or his sons in a transitional period, and think it is impossible to implement any political reform in Libya if Gaddafi or one of his sons stays in power

- Around 96 percent of those polled, believe that the 17th of February revolution can consolidate the national unity of Libya and support the model of a democratic Libya based on a constitution which respects human rights

- The African Union is not seen as a neutral mediator to resolve the Libyan crisis by almost 97 percent of those surveyed. The Turkish government is only slightly less distrusted: 81 percent does not trust Turkey as a neutral mediator in the conflict

- Al-Qaeda has not played any role in the 17th of February revolution, say 94 percent of the Eastern Libyans, and 91 percent thinks it’s impossible for Al-Qaeda to play any political role in the new Libya

- Some 64 percent of the respondents are not satisfied with NATO’s performance in implementing UN Resolution 1973 – though it is unclear how many of those surveyed would like to see NATO doing more, or less. Three quarters of the Eastern Libyans think the concerns in Western countries about arming Libyan revolutionaries are not justified

- The National Transitional Council is seen by 92 percent of those surveyed as “expressing the views and wishes of Libyans for change”
http://english.libya.tv/2011/04/25/eastern-libyans-believe-in-national-unity-distrust-au-and-turkish-mediation-survey-reveals/

We've been on that fake elections bus before and it doesn't matter what anyone says to you, it just keeps going in circles. Gaddafi kill his opponents. Try it again and I'll start quoting the green book.

[Distant Observer]

87. We all know the Cyrenaicans oppose Gaddafi. He toppled their Theocratic King Idris

[Hannah Bell]

132. bullshit. the us & europe don't want him & they're willing to bomb, lie,

murder to get rid of him.

like george bush shouldn't be sitting in the hague right now for his lying shitsack of a war, for the million murders he's done. and obama is building up his own death toll.

like the us has *any* moral authority whatsoever.

the fucking hypocrisy.

[Taitertots]

49. Of course they do. Peace wouldn't ensure Western resource domination

We can only ensure that our corporations will be able to exploit them if they have a destroyed system of governance. We can no longer claim any humanitarian goals when we are actively seeking war over peace.

[Distant Observer]

52. Sad Truth of the BLOODY HISTORY of Western Imperialism across the globe.

Most citizens of the "Western Powers" don't think about how the corporate empires and terms of trade they benefit from often flows from bloody genocides, conquests and oppression peoples around the world.

[bluestate10]

59. Qaddafi held out an olive branch while shelling and attempting to mine

the port of Misrata. Oh my, what a peacenik. Qaddafi is a blood thirsty tyrant that wants to stay in power by any means.

[ProSense]

54. Leave Gaddafi alone!!!

From the NYT:

BENGHAZI, Libya — Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi survived a NATO airstrike on Saturday night that struck a house in Tripoli containing several of his family members and killed his youngest son and three of the colonel’s grandchildren, a Libyan government spokesman announced early Sunday.

“This was a direct operation to assassinate the leader of this country,” said Moussa Ibrahim, the government spokesman, adding that the airstrike proved that the NATO air campaign “has no moral foundation, no legal foundation and no political foundation.”

Mr. Ibrahim identified the dead son as Seif al-Arab Muammar el-Qaddafi, 29. He said that Colonel Qaddafi and his wife, who were in the son’s house along with “friends and relatives,” were not wounded in the attack.

The son who was said to be killed has a lower profile than much of the Qaddafi family. Western officials have said that he made his home in Munich most of the time, and did not seem to play as much of a role in Libya’s everyday affairs as some of his older siblings (including one with a similar name, Seif al-Islam el-Qaddafi). He has a reputation as a playboy, and the German newspaper Der Spiegel reported in 2007 about an incident in which he was briefly detained by the Munich police after getting into a fight with a nightclub bouncer; no charges were filed.

Footage broadcast on the satellite channel Al Jazeera showed the wreckage of a house identified as Mr. Qaddafi’s, including a wall with an enormous hole and shattered concrete. There was no immediate reaction from NATO or independent confirmation of the attack.

Al Jazeera

<...>

Report questioned

Ibrahim had earlier taken journalists to the remnants of a house in Tripoli, which Libyan officials said had been hit by at least three missiles. Given the level of destruction, it is unclear that anyone could have survived.

Benghazi rebels, who control a vast swathe of the east of the country, say they cannot trust Gaddafi.

Al Jazeera's Sue Turton, reporting from Benghazi, said there were "an awful lot" of suggestions in Libya that the news of the deaths could be fabricated.

"One of the main spokesmen for the Transitional National Council, Abdul Hafez Goga, is saying he thinks it could all be fabrication, that it may well be Gaddafi is trying to garner some sympathy," she said.

"Back in 1986, Gaddafi once claimed that Ronald Reagan, then US president, had launched a strike on his compound in Tripoli and killed his daughter. Many journalists since then dug around and found out that the actual child that had died had nothing to do with Gaddafi, that he sort of adopted her posthumously."

<...>

Gaddafi has been massacring people in the thousands. Death is always tragic. What about the children being killed at his hands? The "leave Gaddafi alone" sentinment is absolutely ludicrous.

Videos:

The displaced children of Libya

Inside besieged Libyan city

[Mimosa]

83. They fled from fighting. Gaddafi didn't start this.

This is a CIA backed coup.

[Distant Observer]

201. NOW it certainly is "CIA BACKED," since a "Presidential Finding" is only required for those kind of

totally non-intelligence activities such as coups and assassinations.

[Cleita]

56. A Rupert Murdoch rag. I'm afraid I need a more

credible source stating that NATO rejected offers of talks with Ghaddafi.

[EFerrari]

60. Everybody seems to have it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13249333

[Cleita]

65. Look at the video I posted on the post below this one.

It pretty much explains NATO's position. Also, the only source is the Ghaddafi government spokesman for all those newspapers. No one has seen bodies. There has been no outside source to confirm this.

[Distant Observer]

61. Guess you are having problems with your Google or don't understand that it is Morning in that time

zone and that is why papers in those zone have there articles done already.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/1125946/1/.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13247399

[Cleita]

64. No trouble for me but the OP evidently does.

If he wants to put up a credible source, it will say exactly what Al Jazeera says that NATO rejected offers of peace talks because Ghaddafi has been already saying he wants a truce while he continues to attack and kill his own citizens. In other words Ghaddafi has cried wolf once to often so NATO is not buying it anymore. Also, the only source about his son and grandchildren being killed is Ghaddafis own government spokeman. No one has seen if they actually were killed or if he's trying to get sympathy by calling them martyrs and so forth. IMHO if they were killed, he put them in harms way. He knows he's a target and he did not have the children sent to safety. Here is a link to the Al Jazeera video. He is guilty as if he had blown them up himself. Odd that he escaped although it was claimed he was in the building.

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/04/20114301601637248.html

[Iterate]

66. Regardless, they did reject it.

And the TNC rejected it as well. Before, during, and after his appeal, Gaddafi forces were shelling residential areas far from any fighting, moving tanks and misslle launchers into position, mining the harbor where aid ships arrive, and running a raiding parties into small towns in the SE where the towns were shelled and protesters rounded up. Nowhere did any forces withdraw to their bases.

They didn't trust that the offer was in good faith. That was probably a reasonable assumption.

[Cleita]

67. Look at this video and it explains why NATO

has rejected his overtures because they can't believe him. He continues to attack and bomb his people while there is a ceasefire in progress.

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/04/20114301601637248.html

[Bonobo]

57. It's wrong. There is no justification for this kind of action.

If you defend this, you need to check yourself.

Period. Full stop.

[LiberalAndProud]

74. Thank you.

:hug:

We are wrong. again.

[WinkyDink]

153. Amen.

[inna]

195. Needs to be repeated.

It's wrong. There is no justification for this kind of action.
Posted by Bonobo

If you defend this, you need to check yourself.

Period. Full stop.

[Distant Observer]

69. Just imagine a foreign country bombing the WHITEHOUSE and Obama's kids. It is EVIL, plain and simple

[ProSense]

70. WTF?

Even Saddam Hussein knew to get his family out of a war zone. Imagine a foreign country bombing the WTC?

Your Gaddafi defense is bizarre!

[Mimosa]

79. Some families refuse to separate in the face of threats and BULLYING

I can well imagine wives who say 'if you're going to die I'll die with you'.

What kind of future do you think these women and children would have without the husbands fathers they love?

How dare you or anybody else demand they separate? And why should Gaddafi and family be made to leave their own country, with no trial, no anything but accusations?

[ProSense]

80. Hmmm?

Leave Gaddafi alone

"How dare you or anybody else demand they separate?"

Nothing like feigned outrage and sympathy for a fucking dictator.

Was the U.S. massacring its own people when the WTC was bombed by a foreign country?

[Distant Observer]

81. US Intelligence and Haas, Pres of Council on Foreign Relations, rejected the "massacre" propaganda

before the war was launched.

[Mimosa]

84. Right. No pictures, no photos, no facts.

Gaddafi talked about nationalising oil and getting off the dollar. he conspired with Hugo Chavez, whom I guess is also on the US gov 'hit list'.

[ProSense]

88. Really?

US: Libya death toll could be as high as 30,000


Interviewee: Richard N. Haass, President, CFR

<...>

You've opposed the introduction of the U.S. military in Libya. Any changes in your views?

With Libya, I'm fond of saying, "we are where we are." The argument over whether we ought to have been involved in introducing a no fly zone is now, as they say in government, OBE, "Overtaken by Events."

Right now, the administration faces a conundrum where there is a significant gap between U.S. policy objectives -- in this case the removal of Muammar Qaddafi from power -- and what the United States is willing to do to bring that about. Whenever you have a gap between ends and means, you either have to moderate your ends or augment your means. The United States seems to lean towards increasing what it is prepared to do in Libya, but there are still limits on what the administration is prepared to do.

The answer is not to do a lot more, but to settle for less in the short run. We should push hard for a ceasefire, and do what we can to save as many lives as possible, even if that means for the time being having Qaddafi remain in power and have the country effectively divided. Over time, we could perhaps use other policy tools to weaken Qaddafi's hold on power as well as work with the opposition to increase our confidence that the opposition would constitute a demonstrably preferable alternative based both on what they are trying to do and what it is they could do.

<...>

Sounds like backtracking.

[Distant Observer]

91. Intel testimony PRIOR to war decision was that NO EVIDENCE of atrocity outside the scope

of many other civil conflicts

[EFerrari]

85. Both of Hussein's sons were killed like dogs. Bad example.

[ProSense]

89. "Bad example." Oh,

really? His sons decided to stay. Hussein got his wife, daughters and other family member out.

Rewriting history to defend Gaddafi doesn't work.

[EFerrari]

92. I didn't rewrite anything. His sons were murdered in an illegal invasion.

Rewriting history to justify assassination, tacky, very tacky.

[ProSense]

94. "His sons were murdered in an illegal invasion."

Yeah, remember when Saddam was killing his own people in 2003 and Bush joined with the U.N. to implement a no-fly zone?

"Rewriting history to justify a (murderous dictator), tacky, very tacky."

[EFerrari]

101. That has nothing to do with a fake war for oil.

And repudiating murder is not justifying any dictator. Good grief.

[ProSense]

107. "And repudiating murder is not justifying any dictator. "

So you're going to just ignore Gaddafi's murderous rampage to claim that attempt to stop it is equivalent to murder?

[Phoenix63]

174. Talk about rewriting history...

"Remember when Saddam was killing his own people"?

Hell yes I remember that. Just like I remember that that was not the first time we double crossed the Kurds in Iraq. The first time was in the 70's when Kissinger convinced them to rebel only to have us turn our backs on them when the Shah cut a deal with Iraq.

Then we did it again after the first gulf war when we convinced them to try to overthrow Saddam but bailed on them as soon as the oil fields were secured in Kuwait.

So what I remember is Saddam slaughtering people who had been promised help in overthrowing him. Help from us. Help we reneged on.

And I find it amazing that any American with any actual knowledge of the recent history in that region would attempt to take some kind of moral high ground.

Your country is responsible for the deaths of thousands of children. Children. How you can sit there with some kind of moral superiority on the subject of rewriting history is mind numbing.

[Mimosa]

76. Imagine a foreign government saying US needs regime change

What if a larger power demanded 'regime change' and they actually had puppets in waiting they wanted to install.

That won't happen because WE are the biggest bullies on the planet.

When Bush did this kind of thing everybody on DU hated it.

[ProSense]

90. Remember

poor Slobodan Milosevic, a victim of imperialism?

What if a foreign country bombed the U.S.?

"When Bush did this kind of thing everybody on DU hated it."

Bush joined a U.N. humanitarian action?

[Distant Observer]

95. Remember, NSC Advisor McDonough ADMITTED that US ORCHESTRATED the UN vote.

The did not "join" a humanitarian action, as you call it. A British diplomat said same.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42249963/ns/msnbc_tv-hardball_with_chris_matthews/

"Well, no, I think you—the bottom line here is that the president brought the international community along, I think, with an expanded set of authorities out of the United Nations Security Council that allows us, frankly, "

[ProSense]

96. So?

The U.S. is a powerful member of the Security Council. The members voted in support of the action. They voted against Bush on Iraq.

[Mimosa]

97. So, they are bombing out schools and infrastructure...

ProSense in no way has Gaddafi been like Milosovic and you should know better. If he was why was the US always selling weapons to Libya?

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/03/23/us_libya_arms_training

Why should we care that the US is bombing peoples homes and schools?

http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE73T0AG20110430?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

[ProSense]

99. Oh,

give me a fucking break!

"ProSense in no way has Gaddafi been like Milosovic and you should know better."

So poor Gaddafi, evil Milosovic?

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

105. Moronic. n/t

[Distant Observer]

102. In IRAQ power and water is STILL not back. But we allways love to destroy other countries

critical infrastructure with the promise to rebuild -- with their money of course, or loans.

[joshcryer]

106. Neither in Misrata.

But you don't give one iota about the Libyans that Gaddafi is murdering.

[ProSense]

108. "In IRAQ power and water is STILL not back. "

What does that have to do with Obama?

[Hannah Bell]

115. um - that little thing about having been president & commander in chief for the last two-plus years?

our military is occupying the country; had you forgotten?

[ProSense]

120. President Obama has been bombing Iraq?

Really?

Or are you saying he has fixed Iraq fast enough?

[Distant Observer]

128. Miss the Point? Iraqi's are still SUFFERING FROM US destruction of Iraq infrastructure.

The suffering caused by our destruction and contamination of their country is quietly ignored as we move on to other things. Most Iraqi say they are worse off than under the ruthless dictator Sadaam. That, after we killed perhaps a million people to enforce our will.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/26/AR2011022601854.html

Iraq 'Day of Rage' protests followed by detentions, beatings

BAGHDAD - Iraqi security forces detained hundreds of people, including prominent journalists, artists and intellectuals, witnesses said Saturday, a day after nationwide demonstrations brought tens of thousands of Iraqis into the streets and ended with soldiers shooting into crowds.

[Hannah Bell]

129. oh, please.

[Distant Observer]

100. Most Big countries not in the Coalition Abstained - Brazil, India, Russia, China, Germany - and now

say that the resolution was deceptive and the vote is being misused.

Russia specifically has charged that the resolution is being violated by NATO aggressive action which is not protecting civilians.

[Mimosa]

104. Distant Observer, you know we'll hear everybody else in the world is wrong!

Nobody can tell me the elected leaders of those countries are ignorant or misinformed about what's going on.

[Gravel Democrat]

111. Kosovo was a PNAC plan

http://newamericancentury.org/balkans.htm

Maybe some PNAC plans are better than others, like when a (D) acts on them.

and what did you think of US "negotiators" adding Appendix B to the Rambouillet accords at the last minute? Even Henry the K said:

"The Rambouillet text, which called on Serbia to admit NATO troops throughout Yugoslavia, was a provocation, an excuse to start bombing. Rambouillet is not a document that an angelic Serb could have accepted. It was a terrible diplomatic document that should never have been presented in that form.<9>
—Henry Kissinger, Daily Telegraph, 28 June 1999

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rambouillet_Agreement

You didn't hear about Appendix B? Not surprising since the Western media didn't cover it at all.

The purpose of that 78 day "humanitarian bombing" was to establish a base and oust Milosovic who, just like Kaddafi, wanted some kind of independence.

Lo and Behold: Camp Bondsteel

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_25RWm7Cm9IM/R7wuXXwKeFI/AAAAAAAAAO4/luVOhZyzB48/s400/Picture+1.png

Cheering when children die is the last bit of proof that most in this nation have slipped into a horrible state of moral decay.

It's south from here.

Good luck, I'll be cheering from another country. And I'll not be cheering for the things you are. Bank it.

[ProSense]

116. Well, it was Clinton, Mr. DLC.

Still, remember when everyone compared Iraq to Kosovo?

[polly7]

171. Good information, thank you. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

114. murder & torture are ok when dems do it. dems do it...nicer.

[ProSense]

118. No, but evidently it's OK when Gaddafi does it. n/t

[Distant Observer]

127. Human Rights Watch did NOT list LIBYA as using torture. Listed Israel, Egypt, Syria, Iraq

and the US was implicated in using the torture masters in several of these countries as part of its RENDITION SYSTEM for terror suspects.

According to Human Rights Watch "Countries that use Torture" list (www.hrw.org ), the use of torture was documented in the following countries in 2004 and 2005: China, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Malaysia, Morocco, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Syria, Turkey, Uganda, and Uzbekistan.

[ProSense]

160. "Human Rights Watch did NOT list LIBYA as using torture."

Bullshit!

Human Rights Watch, February: Civil Society: UN General Assembly should suspend Libya’s UN Human Rights Council membership

As nongovernmental organizations from all regions of the world working in the field of human rights, we call upon the United Nations General Assembly to immediately suspend the rights of membership of the Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya in the UN Human Rights Council (HRC).

The General Assembly contemplated the possibility that suspension of a member's rights in the Human Rights Council might be necessary in the event of serious deterioration in the human rights situation that state. Resolution 60/251, which created the Council, provides, in operative paragraph 8, that "the General Assembly, by a two-thirds majority of the members present and voting, may suspend the rights of membership in the Council of a member of the Council that commits gross and systematic violations of human rights."

The Libyan government of Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi, is committing "gross and systematic violations of human rights." A variety of sources report numerous repeated attacks by the Libyan authorities on the civilian population of Libya, including by firing live ammunition at demonstrators. Many hundreds of demonstrators have been killed by Libyan state authorities.

Colonel Gaddafi has admitted the systematic intent behind the violence unleashed on the Libyan population and has given cause for substantial concern that further violence will occur. On February 22, Colonel Gaddafi spoke of protestors as "cats and dogs" and threatened to "cleanse Libya house by house." His son Saif al-Islam al-Gaddafi said on February 20 that the authorities would "fight to the last man and woman and bullet" in combating the protests and threatened that "rivers of blood" would flow

<...>

[Hannah Bell]

135. you apparently don't know where the US borders are or understand the concept

of responsibility.

our hand-picked government in honduras has murdered a dozen teachers, more students, peacefully standing up for their pension rights.

we don't hear a fucking peep from the putative defenders of "freedom".

[JI7]

198. if Obama was slaughtering his own people and some foreign country was trying to stop him

and bombed him and his kids got killed. i would put a lot of blame on him . i would find him selfish for hiding behind his kids .

[Mimosa]

110. Cost of war.com is going to need to add another clock

Lest we forget, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan continue. April 2011 was the bloodiest month since 2009. BTW, not only are US troops being maimed and killed but Iraqi and Afghan civilians.

Cost of War clock at link:

http://costofwar.com/en/

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Distant Observer]

121. I worked on the John Kerry Campaign. Am not associated in anyway with Gaddafi. Spent 10 years

spent in various African countries and have detailed knowledge of developments in several African countries.

I, and many others like me, know there are multiple sides to this story, but am absolutely convinced that the President was badly guided by State in this action and it may well have negative consequences for his political future.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inna]

123. low and disgusting personal attack and harassment. beyond the pale.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[inna]

122. I have to say, it's morbidly fascinating to see propaganda in action.

One can almost watch the wheels of the well-oiled pro-war propaganda machine turn; the corporate media agenda could not be more transparent (at least for those with some elemental knowledge of history of the U.S. interventions).

Frankly, I'm amazed that some apparently well-meaning people buy into this crap. ( Remember Iraq, people?... Let's go liberate us some Libyans. :nuke: But not after we engage in the obligatory two minutes of hate against the dictator du jour, of course! :nuke: It's beyond Orwell, really, at this point. :shrug: )

[joshcryer]

126. Will you admit this was propaganda when the media is unable to verify the BS being spewed?

Oh, nope, you'll quietly pretend you never bought their BS.

[inna]

130. uh, excuse me?... lol, that doesn't even make sense. nm

[joshcryer]

131. The propaganda that NATO killed Gaddafi's son and three of his grandchildren.

It is propaganda by all accounts. If it turns out to be true I will feel bad for the dead, but I have no reason to trust Gaddafi's propaganda sources.

[Distant Observer]

133. Will you acknowledge your biases if the Libyan "propaganda" turns out, surprisingly, to be truth

[joshcryer]

137. Yes, it will be unfortunate if the Libyan government can show conclusively that they're not BSing.

Likely this story will die in the next 24 hours except for reactionary blogs and websites that will try to make it last a week or so.

We will likely not get a hard confirmation.

When the viagra story didn't get a hard confirmation there were dozens of posts on that. When this story is discredited, I won't be making such OPs, because if I had to make an OP for every discredited propaganda piece by the Libyan government, I'd be filling GD with them.

[Hannah Bell]

134. the propaganda that khaddafi killed 10,000 peaceful demonstrators, the propaganda

that his troops defected to the rebels, the propaganda that he's feeding his troops viagra so they can rape better, the propaganda that his troops are mercenaries.....

when lieberman, mccain & the pnac crowd are pimping your war from day one of the protests, something is wrong with this storyline of "freedom"....

[joshcryer]

136. I don't post or believe propaganda.

[Warren Stupidity]

149. so you will continue to blindly support this crap?

[conspirator]

147. +1 nt

[backscatter712]

138. Considering the tens of thousands murdered by Gadaffi, I've got no sympathy for him.

The people of Libya began with peaceful protests, and Gadaffi responded with genocidal slaughter. Assuming this story is true at all, the only regret I have is that the bomb in question missed Muammar himself.

[joshcryer]

140. I saw very few people showing sadness for the 20 killed children in Misrata.

Only those of us following these events closely showed any care for those children.

[bobbolink]

176. Yes, as always, the interest is very one-sided.

[Distant Observer]

166. This is simply FALSE. Gaddafi is known for NOT engaging in massacre prior to the propaganda of the

present rebellion. Please see the earlier reports of HRW.

[JackRiddler]

200. Reminds me of 1999's "half a million missing Albanian men"

[inna]

196. complete and utter bs. fucking ludicrous.

[Distant Observer]

142. British Cameron is a Bloody Liar. They demolish home is RESIDENTIAL AREA

and then with a stiff upper lip claim they are going after military targets.
Worse, Colonel Gaddafi was suppose to be at that house -- so the murdered children
in a lying attempt to assassinate the Leader of a country.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/01/gaddafi-son-killing

[meow mix]

145. well maybe his family should stay away from a sadist-murderer.

instead of supporting it, but then they couldn't indoctrinate kids into savagery

[Distant Observer]

146. Why didn't the Bush Family stay away from him. Since when was this "Sadist" crap invented

[meow mix]

152. bush? lol good one

you guys have been working on your comedy i see.

[krabigirl]

168. Wow. Is this 2003?

[inna]

197. feels like it is at times lately, doesn't it.

[Warren Stupidity]

148. The Glorious Intervention is creating the bloodbath it was preventing.

[WinkyDink]

150. Are we STILL SO GULLIBLE as not to grasp that THIS, TOO, is about OIL?

[krabigirl]

170. It is, and about strategic control. It is sick to see so many democrats acting like neocons,

[polly7]

173. Yes, "seven countries in five years".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXS3vW47mOE

[mmonk]

154. Talks will not stop Gaddafi's violent put down of rebel areas or satisfy NATO

whose real purpose or goal is globalization.

[Distant Observer]

155. I guess Assassinating Saif Gaddafi -- who was the most REFORMIST and popular - is the best way

for peace. Let's just obliterate his home in the night.
If we have to kill his little children as well, its OK.
:sarcasm:

Saif Gaddafi was the most noted voice for democratic political reform in Libya
in the last 4 year prior to the insurrection. He was targeted because he would have
the best chance of winning a free and fair election.

The Western powers have no moral standing in this bloody civil war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/01/gaddafi-son-killing

[mmonk]

156. Western powers' wars today through NATO are always geopolitical

with gobalization in mind. Real morality isn't a consideration I think. Neither is democracy unless it fits their goals.

[polly7]

175. I think you're right. It brings back memories of Hussein offering to

leave Iraq ... what's the point of spending billions on bombs if you don't get to decide the next dictator.

The people of Libya have the right to change for themselves and not be subjected to foreign bombs because of it. Why do we believe they aren't capable? It's arrogant and ugly in its opportunism. jmo.

[JackRiddler]

161. NATO modus operandi. Like bombing the Chinese embassy right after China offered a peace plan...

back during the Serbia/Kosovo campaign. That was an "oops." Like nobody could see the message in context.

[inna]

194. thanks for reminding. almost forgot about that one.

(separate topic for discussion, but... it is also amazing how most people are *still* clueless/oblivious of the real agenda behind the Kosovo "humanitarian intervention". oh well... )

[Distant Observer]

163. 79% of Egyptians NOW have UNFAVORABLE OPINION OF US: Pew Poll. Wonder Why

http://pewglobal.org/

So many pro-war folks here have waved the banner of the Egyptian youth revolt.

Most Egyptian reject US military intervention in Libya.

[ProSense]

169. Down from

82 percent




His favorable increase 3 points.

[polly7]

172. Why should every nation that wants change in leadership have to face

the mighty humanitarian bombs from the west?

[bobbolink]

177. BECAUSE. THEY. REQUESTED. IT.

Go ahead now and verbally bomb me.

[polly7]

178. What? Why would I bomb you?

I don't believe anyone asks for bombs that will knowingly kill civilians. I'm quite sure this isn't what they asked for.

[bobbolink]

179. Then you are wrong. When I PROVE that, will you admit it, and apologize for the vilification

of those of us who have been following the LIBYAN people and NOT Khadufous?

[polly7]

180. Who vilified you?

Not me!

I am saying that a people have the right to rise up and determine their own destiny WITHOUT having to fear death by foreign bombs. If that's vilifying you ....... well then, my apologies.

[bobbolink]

182. DUers, that's who. Suddenly, people who support the efforts of others to "determine their own

destiny" become the ENEMIES, and are vilified as "warmongers" (no matter that many of us have been in many more war protests and actions than the rest of DU!!), and subjected to hate speech.

Quite some "peace". :crazy:

You have your facts wrong, and are determined to stick to them.

The. Libyans. Requested. Intervention.

PERIOD.

That is the opposite of Iraq, etc. Get. The. Facts. Straight.

[polly7]

184. Well I wasn't one of them, but will say I'm sorry you were hurt by anyone

who called you that. Why not complain to that person instead?

No, I don't have my facts wrong. 'Intervention' does not involve foreign bombs being dropped on innocents.

Get your own facts straight.

[bobbolink]

186. Thank you for the apology for ugly, UNPEACEFUL words. Now, please deal with the actual facts:

The LIBYAN people asked for this action, and until they ask for it to stop, THEIR wishes are more important than all of you who are in support of Khadoufous.

Now, YOU prove that the LIBYAN people have asked for this action to halt. YOUR PROOF, now.





http://www.arabianbusiness.com/incoming/article386489.ece/ALTERNATES/g3l/Libya+no+fly+zone.jpg





And now when you see your fellow DUers saying ugly, hateful words to and about those who see this from the side of the LIBYAN people, how about speaking up against the attacks?

[polly7]

188. I don't have any proof that enforcing a No Fly Zone requested by people

anywhere doesn't involve targeting residences and killing innocents, it's just my humble opinion.

I haven't seen DU'ers saying ugly, hateful words about you, but it seems everyone has the interest of the Libyan people at heart, even those of us who don't agree with an intervention we don't see purely as for humanitarian reasons.

[bobbolink]

189. Well, it doesn't take much looking to find the ugly words. The LIBYAN people are the ones to listen

to. You may need to remember that Kaddufous is a lying, murderous shit, and until he PROVES those allegations, they remain just that... allegations. He has lied about such things before, and for "peace" people to now take the word of a murderous lying sack of shit is unbelievable.

ANY and all deaths are sad and to be mourned, and that includes the deaths of adults as well as children, and it includes the deaths of poor people right here in this country. BUT, those deaths, and the deaths caused by Khaddufous in this same struggle, don't seem to matter. They are ignored.

WHEN the LIBYAN people say that it has gone too far, and the NATO action needs to cease, then it will. When you can PROVE that the LIBYAN people are saying that, get back to me. They KNEW it wouldn't be easy or not entail sad results... but they ALSO have told NATO that they want it to continue because the slaughter will be WORSE if NATO withdraws.

BUT, that slaughter doesn't even begin to matter to those who won't avail themselves of the facts.

[polly7]

192. So, residences haven't been targeted and children haven't been killed?

I would have to say, you have your own facts wrong. Who is Kaddufous? If you'll read a little more carefully, I've never defended Qaddafi or any dictator, I've defended the right of people to determine their own destiny without the added fear of indiscriminate bombing from someone else. Do you speak for all Libyan people? Do those signs speak for all Libyan people? I've read articles and seen videos made by people in Libya demanding to be left alone. Maybe they've seen what's happened in Iraq and are justifiably afraid. My point is ......... they shouldn't have to be. There are other ways to support them than bombing the shit out of their country.


Absolutely. EVERY death is to be mourned. You're preaching to the choir here. Not sure why you seem to think you have a lock on empathy and compassion for all people.

[bobbolink]

193. NO, we don't know that for a fact.. He has LIED many times, and accusations of deaths have proven

to be false before.

Until it is proven, these claims are bogus.

He is also using HUMAN BEINGS as shields, including his own family.

What is interesting is that NONE of you were up in arms about the children killed in Misrata, and the other cities BY KHADDOUFOUS. Have you seen any of the pictures of what G. and his mercenaries have done to cities and his own people?? Where was the poutrage of that on DU??

For that matter, where is the outrage about US children dying from hunger and homelessness?

And if we adults don't matter, then how in hell is it excuseable to only mourn the children?

[Distant Observer]

205. WE are the BLATANT LIARS. About goals, about NFZ, about the Deal with Saudi, About Bahrain

about evidence that is denied by the US intelligence itself (prior to war).

If there was any truth regarding our intent re the Arab Spring then we would have protected the Bahrainis
from the invading Saudi army, the Yemeni and Saudis from brutal torture from the repression of our allied dictators, and be much more focused on Syria where there is a real history of torture and massacres, in contrast to Libya, where there was not.

[bobbolink]

206. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did the people of those other countries REQUEST NATO intervention?

And, BTW, I am NOT a liar, so include me out of that.

[Distant Observer]

207. Are you really that UNAWARE. All have pleaded for help, NONE ASKED FOR NATO

NATO bombing in Africa is the orchestrated outcome of Western agendas in coordination with their Dictator allies in Arabia.

Clinton supported Saudi military suppression of Bahraini peaceful protestors in exchange for a free hand in dealing with their mutual enemy Gaddafi.

[bobbolink]

208. Then you answered the question you asked me. NOTE.. I responded without a personal attack.

You chose to use a personal attack.

Against the rules.

Either post with some modicom of respect, or go argue with someone else.

Bye.

[Distant Observer]

183. Yes. A minority faction REQUESTED we kill the MAJORITY. And, of course, there is the OIL

[krabigirl]

167. :( grandchildren were killed.

[peace4ever]

181. We give the orders around here, now... shut up and DIE already

over

[Distant Observer]

185. BBC Confirms that BOMBED FACILITY was a purely residential villa

Said no signs of any military or command and control uses.

Reporter contradicts his own Government's statement saying there was clearly no military value of the residence.

[David__77]

199. Of course.

This is the most cynical war in recent memory. At least in Iraq, the policies were relatively open and aboveboard.