DU POLL: Will Balkanization eventually happen in the US?

[RKP5637]

I used to think never, but with this tax bill, and the ever widening chasm in the US between political parties, I now think it is possible.

18 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	9 (50%)
	Maybe
	4 (22%)
	No
	5 (28%)
	2018 and 2020 will negate this.
	0 (0%)
	Some form of it, but not radical.
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[brooklynite]

1. What exactly are you asking?

[RKP5637]

4. Will the country divide into regional areas wanting separation from a federal government, so as to

go their own separate ways.

[brooklynite]

5. No

[RKP5637]

6. Probably in the big picture you are 100% correct. n/t

[Cuthbert Allgood]

2. We have a pretty strong precedent in this country for a "perpetual union."

I guess it would depend on who is President and if they let states leave.

[Lanius]

3. No. A lot of poor red states need federal monies that come from blue states.

Republican lawmakers might hate Democrats, but they need the money from blue states.

[haele]

7. If the federal government stops being effective, the states will have to step up.

Within 20 years, you will start seeing thriving regional power centers - a Western economic confederation and probably a North-Eastern economic confederation, with fewer tax dollars going to the federal government as the government continues to "privatize".
When the government gets rid of the economic incentive to remain a cohesive unit, you'll see a form of balkanization that will eventually evolve.
Because of Drumpf and the GOP, I can easily see that within a hundred years, this once prosperous united country will fall into three or four different individual states that control their own governments, populations, resources, and economies, leaving a weak central "federal" committee in place to handle any common issues such as commerce, agreed upon environmental regulations, court/legal issues, security and disaster management. Sort of like the tail end of the Roman Empire.

The Murdochs, Kochs and Mercers of the world don't really think that far ahead, and unlike Russia, the United States do not have a history of a sort of localized Imperialism, where each state was ultimately responsible for it's own centralized governance and very little was held in common across the country itself - making it far easier to create a Mafia-like organization of "Territories" to split between Oligarchs in Russia than the Federalist confederacy that created the United States.

I rather feel for the former industrial and agricultural "heartland", but they've voted for the seeds of their own misery through religious fear and class spite.

But if you're set on creating a government "small enough to drown in a bathtub", that's basically what you end up with.
Like established corporations or large businesses that have been bought up by "venture capital" conglomerations, you'll end up with a once great, united Nation that has been drowned in a bathtub, that is spun off into regions lead by cultures and interests that might be far different that what you thought you were going to be buying.

Haele

[Blue_Adept]

10. This is where I see things going

[RKP5637]

12. Yes, I could definitely see something like this happening "if" the current trend continues. n/t

[First Speaker]

8. We certainly hate each other as much as we did in the 1850s...

...so yes, it's possible. And so many things could trigger chaos--a radical Supreme Court, rolling over any institutional safeguards; a disputed Presidential election, "won" by the GOP by voter suppression and outright theft; a wave of gun violence that includes political assassinations. Something happening that leaves one part of the country literally unable and unwilling to acquiesce in it. Anyone who thinks we aren't on the verge of this is naïve, in my opinion...

[RKP5637]

13. If Trump gets his pick of a couple of more SCOTUS justices, that will pour gas on the fire. n/t

[get the red out]

9. No

It might screw up sports leagues, especially NCAA.

[LanternWaste]

11. I see no real evidence pointing towards it, and as the various states and territories are not

I see no real evidence pointing towards it, and as the various states and territories are not in real conflict, and as the political conflicts we currently experience are not predicated on region (one of five necessary prologues for Balkanization to occur) but rather on ideology, I simply do not see a fracturing of the US as a political entity as a practical possibility now or in the near future.

[RKP5637]

14. I certainly hope not, because it would tragically weaken the US IMO to be divided. n/t

[Saboburns]

15. I don't know about Balkanization

I don't know about this nation dividing itself into some smaller ones. And I wouldn't care one way about it, if it does or if it doesn't isn't important to me.

Because I think something terrible will happen here, something truly hideous and evil.

Too much hate, brought on by too much propaganda, by too many willing to believe the poison they sequester themselves with. Too many Republicans have too much hate for so many different Americans.

And its not getting better, it gets worse every day.

I wish I saw it different. I REALLY wish I saw it different.

But I think something truly and horrifically evil will happen here. To us, Americans. By other Americans.

[RKP5637]

16. And that is the saddest part, driven by hatred, while Rupert Murdoch profits!!! Hate sells. Trump

realized how stupid and racist a good part of America is and used it to his advantage to become president. Rupert Murdoch recognized the same, and used it to increase his wealth.

[GeorgeGist]

17. If Dems don't get control of Congress in 2018 election ...

the USA is history. IMO

[RKP5637]

19. Yeah, the 2018 election will be very telling about the future of the US. n/t

[pangaia]

30. I must agree..

[ClarendonDem]

34. Why do you think that?

And how would that play out? This isn't a case of free states and slave states.

[Aristus]

18. Very probably. Welcome to the Balkanized States of America:

1. New England.
2. Tidewater.
3. Appallachia.
4. Texas.
5. Deseret.
6. California.
7. Cascadia.

Any other potential Balkan Republics?

[RKP5637]

20. Probably all the southern states as one region, unless global warming wipes the area out. n/t

[Aristus]

21. I agree.

I just couldn't think of a plausible name for such a region.

Wait! I just did!

"Dixie".

[RKP5637]

22. Yep! n/t

[ClarendonDem]

36. What are the southern states in your scenario?

Is Florida included? North Carolina? Virginia? West Virginia? Is Arkansas a "southern state"?

[RKP5637]

48. It's really difficult to tell until events roll out, if they ever do, if such a geographical area

can be defined.

[VOX]

25. Pacifica: California, Oregon, Washington and Hawaii.

It's my own goofy idea, but those states are all Blue and doing pretty well. Just dreaming.

[Aristus]

26. Sorry. Washington, Oregon, parts of northern California, and maybe even B.C. will be 'Cascadia'.

We have a flag and everything...



I promise though, we will be close, loving allies of Pacifica, formerly Hawaii and southern California.

[VOX]

37. Understood (cool flag!)...

Pacifica could add Nevada and Arizona IF they knock off their flirtations with Republicans. Both of those states will be in the Blue column soon (provided there are fair elections) by their (increasingly) large Hispanic populations -- all those hotels and golf courses need service workers, and those service workers vote Democratic.

If that doesn't work out, California should respectfully request admission to Cascadia -- if they'll have us!

[ClarendonDem]

39. Are Washington, Oregon and N. California going to invade

Canada? If not, in what reality does Canada permit B.C. to secede? And why on earth would the U.S. permit any state to secede? The Civil War settled the legality of that issue--it isn't legal. I dislike Trump as much as the next person, but why do you think it is ok for states to secede?

[Aristus]

40. I don't know in what reality that's possible.

But in different iterations of the hypothetical Cascadia, B.C often plays a part.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement)

For the rest of it, I'm sure there isn't any legal obstacle we can't surmount, seeing as how the current administration has no respect for the rule of law.

[ClarendonDem]

42. Sure

California, Oregon and Washington can attempt to secede, but I certainly wouldn't support that unconstitutional, illegal, and treasonous act. And BC can attempt to leave Canada, and I suspect most Canadian citizens would have the same reaction i do (treason, illegal, etc.). I can't believe anyone here actually supports this idea.

[Aristus]

44. Okay.

n/t

[ClarendonDem]

45. Ok, thanks for responding

Have a good evening (seriously, not sarcastically).

[Kaleva]

47. large parts of California, Oregon and Washington are red.

[Aristus]

54. In my vision for Cascadia, it's Washington and Oregon west of the Cascades

that become part of the new republic.

The eastern portions of both states can join up with Idaho to become The Well-Armed Capitalist Oligarchy Of Dumbfuckistan.

[Chasstev365]

27. Redneckastan, the Great Lakes Strip: Milwaukee-Chicago-Detroit-Cleveland

[Aristus]

28. I have to admit I wonder what will happen to all of the right-wing "Gawd Bless 'Murikkka!"

types when there is no longer an America to speak of.

I'm talking about people whose only achievement in life is to be obnoxious, flag-flailing uber-patriots.

What will they do when the United States of America is no more, and the only piece of land they can claim affinity for is whatever squalid patch of swampland their inbred clan lives on?

[ClarendonDem]

46. Start shooting their neighbors?

Cause that's what happened in Yugoslavia and Rwanda. That's my real fear regarding these discussions--Democrats start normalizing secession of a state or region and overlook the associated violence.

[VOX]

23. The U.S. is now polarized on REALITY. There's no solution for that except divorce.

30+ years of right-wing propaganda has so thoroughly and completely divided the country, that there is now a battle for the truth -- what happens in measurable reality, and what does not. The two polarities (call them "left" and "right", or whatever) are laying claim to have the facts and the truth.

Obviously, the right takes fantastic liberties with what constitutes truth. They have a tremendous advantage with 24/7 "state news" (Fox); all three branches of government; 32 states with top-to-bottom Republican control; the Electoral College system clearly favors the right; and endless gerrymandering. They have taken the country in a direction that now cannot be corrected in four or eight years-- it'll take decades to put things back on track -- *IF* the 1% will allow it, which is doubtful, given the platinum Christmas gift they just received from Congress.

There's no easy solution to this mess, but it's clear that both sides are not going to yield an inch on issues. They are incompatible, and hostilities will only escalate from here on. The only way to dial down the daily animosity is divorce. The two sides must separate. How that could be done equitably is a mystery. The 1% would not let the income-producing Blue States to just exit the Union, as they desperately want their resources.

Every possibility in this scenario is not good. That's how screwed Americans are. Especially those who do not wish to live in an oligarchy (we're there already), or in a fascist state (pretty much there already, too).

[RKP5637]

24. Yep, I've often said watching politics in the US is like a perpetual domestic quarrel. The 2018/2020

elections will be a significant bellwether for the future of the US. Frankly, IMO, I see violent and hostile times ahead in the US much like we've seen in other quarreling countries. It is sad and pathetic. I try to be optimistic, but I really don't see any of this ending well.

[VOX]

31. Same. I no longer have faith in people to do the right thing.

There's a hard-core nihilism in #45's supporters. And the fact that #45 has been allowed to remain in office this long, enabled by ALL Republicans, without any of the "checks and balances" we were taught in government classes. They call the shots now, and Democrats/progressives are merely a sideshow.

Like you, I wish for better outcome, and that truth and ice-water reality will eventually win the day. But again, I no longer have faith in people looking out for one another. We're pretty much strapped into totalitarianism and runaway nationalism (both distinctly anti-American postures).

I also agree that there will be more violence, you can just sense it coming. Our future rides on the upcoming elections, as you say. If those go south, well, it's all over. And NOTHING has been done yet about the Russian interference/hacking, so that's in the mix as well.

[LonePirate]

29. That's an astute and sad observation. Not many solutions and not much time to implement them.

I think there is a very real possibility in my lifetime that this country dissolves or sees some states secede.

[VOX]

32. Agreed. Something will have to give way.

The situation as it now stands in intolerable. For all we know, the U.S. is a de facto Russian satellite state now.

Even if Trump and Co. magically vanished tomorrow, there's still a complicit, far-right Republican Party that just railroaded their Orwellian "tax cut" to please their billionaire funders. In effect, the Republicans have supplied their big donors with extra millions to "reinvest" in Republican candidates in future elections, to maintain the whole miserable system.

So, yes, secession or dissolution in the future is a very strong possibility. And THAT won't be easy, either.

[ClarendonDem]

38. The notion that

"Divorce" is the only solution is silly. How does that divorce even work? Do you think it will be peaceful, because I'm not aware of any country that failed and that didn't involve violence. I can't believe folks on a progressive website are seriously contemplating dissolution of the Union.

[VOX]

41. We "folks on a progressive website" tend to think outside the box.

That's why we're progressives, we don't just eat what's handed to us -- we want to actually know the ingredients and who made it. (That's metaphorical, not literal.)

If you're posting "on a progressive website," surely you're a Democrat or progressive? So, please, feel free to share your thoughts on a solution for this long-standing mess we're in. Don't hold back.

And welcome to DU.

[ClarendonDem]

43. When did proposing treason and civil war

Become "thinking outside the box"? My answer to this mess we are in is to continue working towards a solution that helps every American in every state, not arguing we should split up the Union because we've temporarily got an idiot in charge. I don't have all the answers, or perhaps any of the answers, but it certainly isn't breaking this country into a multitude of regional interests that can't support themselves, much less defend themselves.

[VOX]

52. "Treason" is the reason we're in this mess. We are a Russian satellite state...for now.

Since at least 2016, Russia (still a hostile foreign power) has leaned on our electoral process and CANDIDATES to affect the outcome of our elections. We do not yet know the full extent, but the net is cast wide. The Russian influence succeeds by creating confusion about what is true or not; they are experts at this technique: flood the media with calculated, coordinated attacks of negative messaging. Keep it coming, relentlessly. Make noise with it. Break down morale. Make it difficult to separate truth from the lie. Divide groups against themselves. Sow doubt and confusion. Eventually, even a reasonable person can be affected, if only to make the brain-fogging messaging stop.

There exists ample evidence that Russians screwed with our election (one of several national elections in which they’ve meddled, along with “Brexit”). They haven’t gone away. They’re still open for business. This is an arena of conflict in which they excel. Our democratic republic is now hanging by a mere thread, and if you don't realize that fact, you need to get caught up, and quickly.

It runs much deeper than the "idiot in charge." There are any number of "idiots" who've participated in what is tantamount to a hostile attack on American institutions. Republicans have been (for the most part) mute on this subject. Many of them are now desperately attempting to discredit and derail the Mueller investigation, even claiming it's a coup (!) -- and that speaks volumes. If #45 should shut down the investigation, all hell will break loose.

I'm not proposing civil war, for God's sake, but we are in very similar territory -- both sides unbending, both are so polarized and cemented on issues that compromise isn't going to happen. Look at the tax-fiasco that was just rammed through. Do Republicans really care what the people think, when all polls show overwhelming public dissatisfaction with the bill? What was the urgency to push this through like it was a life-or-death matter? And whom does it truly benefit? The 1% of millionaires and billionaires and corporations (with Citizen's United, corporations are people, too) -- those entities who give millions to Republican candidates and PACs.

The Blue States, by and large, are far more economically viable than the more interior Red States. It's the heavier federal taxes on the coastal Blue States that keep states like Mississippi and Alabama afloat. So we're already bailing out those geographic areas that HATE us. And yet the denizens of those states would be ecstatic with a right-wing dictatorship that eliminated "godless libtards" from the picture.

[Kaleva]

33. As most of us live in Purple America, it'd be impossible to Balkanize this nation.

How would one balkanize this?

[RKP5637]

50. Yep, please see #49. n/t

[Aristus]

55. An in-depth look at the Balkans themselves might inspire the same question.

It seems so simple on the surface: Christian vs Muslim. Roman alphabet vs Cyrillic, similar but distinct languages.

But I learned something interesting when I was in PA School. One of my classmates was from Serbia (and possessed that legendary, gorgeous Central-European beauty. But I digress...), but her husband was Slovenian. Her mother-in-law was Croatian. She had Bosnian cousins. She had Muslims, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and even a few Protestants, in her family. They were the peninsula in microcosm, and one would think, impossible to 'Balkanize'. And they couldn't possibly be the only family like that.

But it happened.

[Kaleva]

56. When the term was first coined back in early 19th century, what you describe was extremely rare.

Balkanization came about because of the stark divisions amongst the peoples. If what you describe was the norm back in the early 1800s, then the term "balkinization" may never have entered our vocabulary.

[Persondem]

35. How do you balkanize urban vs. rural? So no. nt

[RKP5637]

49. Yep, the map in #33 shows where we are. Actually, that is a good thing perhaps, maybe there is still

hope for balance with that type of distribution ... We'll know better after 2018/2020 IMO.

[Persondem]

51. Agree 100% nt

[roamer65]

53. By ethnic and political cleansing.

Like the former Yugoslavia.

I’m not supporting it. Just stating how our despicable species does it.

Another example is Partition Day in India in 1947.