We're now in a fight simply to preserve humane values in this country.

[Ken Burch]

The vote for the tax theft bill is a vote to adopt Trump's "you have to be a heartless, arrogant, selfish bastard to 'win'" ethos as our national credo.

This could take us to a place where we empathy and compassion may survive among a few at a small, private level, but will be extinct in terms of any practical application.

Any assistance for the poor will be stingy, sanctimonious "charity" in which those without are perpetually shamed and blamed for their condition.

Our only hope of saving something of our best selves is to fight for the creation of SOME spaces of life in which values other than short-term individual self-interest matter, and in which human beings are NOT seen as largely expendable.

It's a bleak day...but maybe in bleak moments something good can be born for the future.

[Irish_Dem]

1. History is full of dark days and people rising to the occasion.

I hope that we can as well.

[bench scientist]

4. You mean the ones lucky enough to survive, live to fight.

[Irish_Dem]

10. Yes, I wonder if other species kill each other as much as humans kill

each other. And yes, during dark times, many will die and not live to fight on.
That is what the GOP wants, fewer mouths to feed. More loot for themselves.

[pangaia]

30. I hear ants are pretty good at it..

[Eliot Rosewater]

2. Now?

You see I have been in that fight for a long time, many of us have.

Many of us realized that fight was alive and well before a Nazi was put in to power.

Some of us knew that if we did not...wait, I cant finish that statement.

Have a nice day!

Oh and some of us SCREAMED about this...

[Ken Burch]

5. I worked as hard as you did for HRC in the fall.

And I've always been as anti-Trump as you were.

There's nothing wrong with saying it's worse than anyone expected.

[Eliot Rosewater]

7. Well first of all you have no CLUE whether what you just said is true or not.

But we will put that aside, have a nice day!

Oh, and I expected it to be this bad and WORSE, it is NOT over yet.

[Ken Burch]

9. What the hell are you angry with ME about?

I didn't ever do anything that helped Trump. Not once.

[Eliot Rosewater]

11. Who said that?

[Ken Burch]

56. You've implied it, among many others.

It's the only thing I can think of that explains most of your responses to my posts. I supported the runner-up in the primaries and it has always sounded as though you hold everyone who backed that candidate for the 2016 result-even the vast majority of us who campaigned for the ticket in the fall.

If it's not that...what the hell is it with you about me?

And what do you mean by "what we're not allowed to talk about"?

[NurseJackie]

20. Nobody said that you did.

However, I think that if someone posted a video in an attempt to compare the Democratic Party to the Socialist Unity Party of Germany, that's something that DIMINISHES and HURTS the party.

All I'm trying to say... and I think we can both agree... is that if anyone does anything that HURTS and WEAKENS the Democratic Party that's something that HELPS the GOP and therefore something that also helps Trump.

[sheshe2]

43. DU is full of that today

All I'm trying to say... and I think we can both agree... is that if anyone does anything that HURTS and WEAKENS the Democratic Party that's something that HELPS the GOP and therefore something that also helps Trump.

The new word of the day comes to mind. "Spineless" has oft been repeated here...To be clear, I am NOT referring to the op, yet numerous posts I have read today by assorted posters.

[NurseJackie]

46. I was replying to one of them, but found that I couldn't reply...

... it had been deleted WHILE I was composing my response. Ha! (Go figure!)

[sheshe2]

48. Hmmm

I think I saw the OP to which you refer.

[lapucelle]

51. I traveled out of state weekends in September and October

to re-register Democratic voters, devise election day transportation plans for the working poor, and canvas for HRC and Katie McGinty. I was also a phone bank captain at my local DNC office.

I agree with you that it's wrong to make assumptions about the breadth and degree of other people's engagement and activism.

[LanternWaste]

8. Your deft movement of the goalposts is impressive.

Your deft movement of the goalposts is impressive. Qualifying a premise after the fact however, is invalid.

[sheshe2]

15. No, sorry.

It is not worse than I expected, this is exactly what I expected. Some of us knew this all along.

The burn it all down crowd then...are on the site saying once again ...burn it down with a Government shut down that will destroy so many lives and cause a painful death to many who will not get their treatments they need from Medicare and Medicaid. This was Sarandan's wish awhile back, then again she did not care about the collateral damage...won't touch her in the least. She be rich, white and so very privileged.

[Ken Burch]

19. I respect your experience.

And I have nothing to do with Sarandon or bear any responsibility for her.

[NurseJackie]

23. Why does it bother you so much when people scorn or ridicule her? Why...

... does it motivate you to post OP's that scold DUers for "wasting bandwidth" in expressing their contempt for Sarandon, Stein or the Green party and Green party voters (such as Sarandon) in general? It's very peculiar behavior.

[sheshe2]

32. I think I know, but...

[sheshe2]

26. Where did I say you did?

And I have nothing to do with Sarandon or bear any responsibility for her.

[NurseJackie]

41. It's a Homer-Simpsonesque pre-emptive denial for accusations not made. Typically...

... when Homer did it, it was guilt-based. A funny repeat gag that always gets great mileage on the Simpsons.

Marge: "Homer, I'm home!"
Homer: "I-didn't-go-to-Moe's-I've-been-home-all-day-what-makes-you-think-I-went-to-Moe's? You keep accusing me of going to Moe's! Nobody saw me you can't prove a thing."

------------------------------------------------

Marge: "Welcome home, Homer. How was work today!"
Homer: "Well, I didn't go to Moe's if that's what you're hinting at!"

[sheshe2]

42. Bwahahahahahahha

[George II]

24. The campaign began in the summer.

[Ken Burch]

25. By "the fall", I meant after the convention.

I worked for her as soon as they had an organized fall campaign for her.

The vast majority of Sanders activists did, too.

[sheshe2]

28. Umhmm.

[Ken Burch]

29. It's true.

Some didn't...but the ones who didn't were the ones who wouldn't have worked for ANY Dem nominee...that tiny number of people probably wouldn't have worked for Bernie if he'd actually been nominated.

It's time to move on from the "it's Bernie's fault" narrative.

Once Warren was out, Bernie HAD to run-if he hadn't, the issues he cared about wouldn't have been addressed at all-and his campaign did no elect Trump.

HRC was at 49% in the polls in 2015. She ended up with 49%.

I don't support the guy anymore...but we need his agenda as PART of what we are about...we need to be for ALL forms of justice, while recognizing historic and continuing oppression and adjusting to deal with it.

[Eliot Rosewater]

33. DNC agenda has always had within it that which you give others credit for.

[NurseJackie]

36. Old habits are hard to break, apparently.

[Ken Burch]

57. No, not always.

We needed someone to push us towards going back to standing with working people and the poor against the few.

When we became fixated with looking "pro-business", we largely abandoned a lot of the non-wealthy.

That's what the price was of the support from the corporate donors Tony Coehlo brought in.

[betsuni]

60. There it is: "going back to standing with working people and the poor."

Talking point: Democrats don't care about middle/working class. And "fixated with looking 'pro-business...." Talking point: Democrats are corporate shills.

[Ken Burch]

64. Not a talking point...a valid view.

My gods, do you honestly believe that we have to pretend our party is flawless?

What is so terrible about saying "the Russians/Comey/vote supression had an effect, AND our party went off track in certain areas"?

There's no conflict in admitting both things are true.

It's not as though the only way to be a loyal Democrat is to act as if our party never makes any mistakes.

[betsuni]

62. "Bernie HAD to run -- if he hadn't, the issues he cared about wouldn't have been addressed at all"

Talking point #4: The Democratic party is Republican lite, has to be forced, kicking and screaming, to the left.

[Ken Burch]

69. Not "Republican lite"-but since 1978 the party has largely abandoned New Deal/Great Society ideas

on economics and poverty. We bought into the fiscal conservatism/balanced budget fixation, even though nobody but the white rich benefits from that change.

We're pro-choice, fairly pro-LGBTQ and anti-racist. I didn't say "there's no difference", and I don't believe there's no difference.

I simply reject the idea that we have to be moderate-to-conservative on defense policy and economics to get elected to be pro-choice, pro-LGBTQ, and anti-racist.

And this is the view I've held since 1978, when Jimmy Carter chose the rich man's goal of low inflation over full employment.

And what I believe is no one's damn "talking point". It's just the conclusion I personally reached.

It does no harm to this party to express that view, and it can be expressed without minimizing the Russians/Comey/vote suppression aspect.

BTW, what's so terrible about my saying the party had to be pushed from below to adopt better economic policies? Every good thing a post-1933 Democratic administration has ever done was a result of pressure from below. That's the only reason any of the good parts of FDR's domestic policies were adopted. It's the only reason the GI Bill was passed after World War II. It's the only reason JFK finally came out strongly for civil rights, the only reason there were civil rights and voting rights bills for LBJ to sign, the only reason the War on Poverty was even attempted, the only reason we got marriage equality where it passed, and it's the major reason we got the ACA. So why would it offend you that I'd point out that this is a party that can be made better due to protest? Would you rather we be seen as a party that doesn't listen? We almost never win the votes of people who HATE protest and activism, so what are you afraid of?

[sheshe2]

45. Yet she was the nominee in the summer. nt

[Ken Burch]

54. it wasn't 'til late August that the Dems had a campaign office here(Olympia).

That's the only reason I said fall instead of summer. And I didn't move to Olympia until the end of July.

OK?

If they'd had a campaign office open at the end of July, I'd have started working for her THEN. But they didn't. What matters is I hekped as soon as they had a general election hq set up.

It's not as though the only way a person could prove they were anti-Trump or anti-social oppression was to support HRC from the omet she declared.

[sheshe2]

27. That is correct, George.

[Ken Burch]

70. I was active as soon as there was a campaign office open where I had moved.

It's hairsplitting to make an issue of my saying "the fall" rather than summer. Where I live, they didn't start the Clinton-Kaine campaign until August, and I was there as soon as I could be.

It's not as though everyone who didn't support HRC from the moment she declared share the blame for Trump.

[mcar]

3. We've been in that fight for a very long time

The Rs have told us without shame what they would do. HRC clearly warned us last year. Sad that some decided it didn't matter.

[Ken Burch]

6. And I was never one of those who said it didn't matter, so don't put that on me.

It's enough that I campaigned for HRC in the fall.

[mcar]

12. I said "some"

Not you.

[Eliot Rosewater]

13. I wish we could discuss how we got here, it is SO important to do that, but we cant

[mcar]

14. I wish we could too Eliot

I fear that some on the left will make the same mistakes again. Look at all the Dem bashing here today. Rs pass this atrocity on a fully party line vote, but "Dems are spineless!"

[Eliot Rosewater]

16. Oh it is everywhere here and out there.

It is likely that since we are NOT allowed to discuss it, we will repeat it.

I have already assumed we will not win back any power, at all.

I know my future is bleak, but I am gonna take the advice of

"Do not go gentle into that good night"

[Ken Burch]

22. It would have made things worse to bar Bernie from the primaries, if that's what you mean.

Last edited Wed Dec 20, 2017, 07:48 PM - Edit history (1)

We didn't lose because the nominating process wasn't bland or because there were Sanders items in the platform that was never mentioned all fall.

If the primaries had been a formality, HRC STILL would have ended up with the 49% she had in 2015.

(if that's not what you mean...what ARE you referring to?)

[mcar]

34. Why are you bringing Bernie into this?

No one else is.

[NurseJackie]

37. Old habits are hard to break, apparently. Some people can't let go and move on.

[Ken Burch]

40. I thought that was what that poster meant by "what we aren't allowed to talk about".

I don't know of much of anything we actually aren't allowed to discuss in relation to Trump coming to power-other than the possibility that our campaign might in any way have been flawed.

[sheshe2]

49. Whose campaign are you refering to as flawed?

[Ken Burch]

50. Critiques of a campaign are never attacks on the candidate.

They are simply critiques of strategy and tactics.

[sheshe2]

53. Yet you never answered my question, Ken

Ken Burch (49,383 posts)
40. I thought that was what that poster meant by "what we aren't allowed to talk about".

I don't know of much of anything we actually aren't allowed to discuss in relation to Trump coming to power-other than the possibility that our campaign might in any way have been flawed.

Then.

Ken Burch
50. Critiques of a campaign are never attacks on the candidate.


They are simply critiques of strategy and tactics.

No, you referred to "our campaign might in any way have been flawed."

I asked whose campaign you were referring to.

[Ken Burch]

55. The party's campaign for our nominee.

I believe she deserved better.

[sheshe2]

58. Yet you called it flawed.

Yes she deserved better. Yet you said her campaign was flawed.

[Ken Burch]

66. The campaign was flawed. Why is it so intolerable to admit that?

It's always necessary to address things like that after a result like that. It's done to make sure things are done better in the future. It will be necessary if we WANT to elect a woman as president the next time we nominate one(and we will nominate another woman in the future).

It's not as though admitting means denying the role of the other factors, or even minimizing them

Everything I've said since then was said as someone who did everything I could do to help elect HRC ONCE SHE WAS NOMINATED(and endorsed her a week before she was nominated). The things I posted in the fall were posted from a standpoint of trying to HELP her get elected(as I was helping her by canvassing or doorbelling and phonebanking for her throughout the post-convention campaign.

Russia/Comey/vote suppression played a significant role. Mistakes in strategy and tactics played a role as well.

We can do something about strategy and tactics. Until at least 2019, we can't do anything about the Russians, Comey and vote suppression. Why not focus for now on things we do have agency over?

Every day, I wish HRC had carried the Electoral College...I grieve her defeat as deeply as you did.

Please just accept that and stop already with the "gotcha!", I'm not the enemy, and I'm not to blame.

[betsuni]

61. Talking point #3, Hillary Clinton: flawed. Anti-Dem talking points make great stocking stuffers!

Just a holiday idea to put in the hopper.

[Ken Burch]

63. I said the campaign was flawed-not the candidate.

It's not as though the ONLY way to address the Russian/Comey/vote suppression combo is to pretend that our campaign was flawless and was otherwise certain to win.

I don't do anyone's talking points-I solely speak my own views.

[betsuni]

65. I didn't specify, said "flawed" which applies to anything connected with Hillary Clinton.

Again, nobody has ever "pretended" that any campaign is or was flawless, except maybe Trump about his own. Talking point.

[Ken Burch]

67. So what is your point then?

I was clearly not calling Hillary "flawed&quot other than in the sense that she is a human being and thus as intrinsically imperfect as the rest of us) or disparaging her in any way. My OP wasn't about her at all.

I only got involved with a conversation vaguely involving her because other people brought that up-and there was no reason for them to do so.

People started bringing up the '16 election-which wasn't something I even wanted-in a confrontational, blaming manner. Rather than trying to process what I'd said and think of the future, they just wanted to turn the thread into an excuse for lashing out, and lashing out at me when I've done nothing to deserve blowback.

I don't do "talking points". I have no idea why you're using that phrase. It sounds like you're saying I'm in some sort of conspiracy, some sort of cabal, taking somebody's orders or something.

I'll say it again:

I'm not part of JPR and never have been.

I'm not a closet Green.

I don't think Bernie should run for president again.

And I'm damn sure not a closet Trump supporter.

Therefore, you have no reason to be adversarial with me.

OK?

[betsuni]

68. In the bleak midwinter, frosty wind made moan,

Earth stood hard as iron, water like a stone;
Snow had fallen, snow on snow, snow on snow,
In the bleak midwinter, long ago.

[Ken Burch]

71. OK...you quoted a Sarah McLachlan lyric.

I commend your taste in music, but there's no obvious relation between that quote and anything I said.

[betsuni]

73. "In the Bleak Midwinter" is an English poem written in 1872 later turned into a Christmas carol.

You said "bleak" first.

[Ken Burch]

74. Fair enough. It is a bleak time and my words siply reflected that.

n/t.

[sheshe2]

18. Yes.

The word 'spineless' seems to be a new cool buzzword today. Ooooh and the bashing of Dems on this Democratic board should shock me...no more.

[mcar]

35. It truly is like clockwork

Rs do something, blame Ds.

[sheshe2]

38. Of course, mcar.

[Ken Burch]

21. We got here for a variety of reasons.

Those reasons weren't ALL the fault of people to your left.

And it's not because Bernie was in the primaries. His candidacy HAD to happen.

HRC was at 49% before Bernie declared. She ended up at 49%. She'd have had the same vote share if she'd run further to the right.

[sheshe2]

31. Full circle once again.

You re-fighting the primaries.

How about we talk about all the people that will die with this tax bill and the looming gutting of Medicare, Medicaid and SS. Clean out your guest bedroom, mom, dad and elderly relatives will be at your house very soon.

[Ken Burch]

44. It's not refighting the primaries simply to defend one of the primary candidates from unfair attack.

Or to defend the place of that candidate in the primaries.

It's only refighting to say that the nominee should not have been the nominee, and I don't say that or feel that.

I don't have to agree that the other candidate should have been barred from running to prove I don't refight.

Please stop making false accusations about me.

[sheshe2]

47. You brought up Bernie here.

Ken Burch
44. It's not refighting the primaries simply to defend one of the primary candidates from unfair attack.


Or to defend the place of that candidate in the primaries.

Actually, it is. And...I see nowhere that I attacked the man. Stop with the conflict where there is none.

It's only refighting to say that the nominee should not have been the nominee, and I don't say that or feel that.

I don't have to agree that the other candidate should have been barred from running to prove I don't refight.

Nope. I have also not read anyone in this thread say anything like that.

Please stop making false accusations about me.

I have made no false accusations about you. You are in fact refighting the primaries here. I am not, which makes your accusations about me...FALSE.

[Ken Burch]

52. It's a false accusation to claim I refight the primaries and you know it.

I would never have endorsed and campaigned for our nominee if I didn't accept the results of the primaries.

The other poster made a cryptic comment about "what we're not allowed to talk about"-I can't think of anything else we're not allowed to talk about regarding that year. What do you think that means?

You have no reason to keep playing "Gotcha!" with me. I worked for our nominee as soon as she had a campaign office in my area after the convention. My support of her once she was nominated was never in question. A week before Philly was as early as I could endorse her. Can you just accept that and stop acting like I'm guilty of something here?

[delisen]

17. and this is why Human Rights has to be the basis the the Democratic

Party vision.

Every individual human being here and in the rest of the world is entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The economic system gets tailored to carry out that vision.

[Willie Pep]

39. The country is sliding into a dark place.

I know the Republicans have been pushing these kinds of awful policies for a long time but they were always done under the cover of "helping people help themselves" and other arguments that at least pretended to be altruistic. Now I think the Right doesn't even bother with these slogans and is going full Social Darwinist. I have seen more pro-Social Darwinist arguments from the Right in the last few years than in the last 20.

I worry that some of the younger conservatives will be even more heartless than their ancestors who at least seemed to believe that they were helping people become self-reliant. Now the sentiments I hear are basically "I don't care about anyone but myself and my family" right out in the open. Trump and his making fun of "losers" is part of the trend of being openly contemptuous of the weak.

[defacto7]

59. Good post.

I don’t know what all the rest of the op killing meta is about. Too bad so many TOS rules can be broken and no one can do anything. But this op is exactly what we face. I wish people would read the point and stop with the misguided vendettas.

We fight to preserve "basic" humane values. I thought we were beginning to go beyond that point but here we are and fight we must.

[Ken Burch]

72. Thank you.

n/t.