General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsArkansas Granny
(31,539 posts)I asked him if he had a uterus, to which he replied "Of course not". I told him he should keep his opinion to himself, in that case. He has never mentioned it to me again.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,452 posts)some men do have a uterus. Still agree that the decision should be the pregnant woman's decision alone IMHO.
Arkansas Granny
(31,539 posts)Mariana
(14,861 posts)If he'd had one, he would probably have said yes.
Beartracks
(12,827 posts)=================
samnsara
(17,658 posts)..you are very polite to these assholes.
tetedur
(820 posts)with whom he did not wish to have a child. I think that's the moment for men who are against abortion, to take responsibility and decide that they don't want their actions to possibly result in one. So yeah that's when they have a say so.
After all, men can prevent unwanted pregnancies.
When a man has abdicated his responsibility to his partner and the life he may be helping to create, he should sit down and shut up.
Arkansas Granny
(31,539 posts)IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)Men and women who are involved in the situation can talk about it and find common ground in regards to what is best for both at that point in their lives. Of course, women have the last word, but at least in my personal case, I'd hate for my wife to treat me jus as a sperm donor with no say in such a big decision as having a child.
In the public arena, however, we men have no say.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)rape or pedophilia. Ideally the life of the mother shouldn't be in danger if she continues the pregnancy.
You're missing the point. Women are not demanding to use abortion as just another form of birth control. In most marriages the decision to have an abortion is something the couple discusses and decides mutually just as you say it should be.
The issue is who has the right over a woman's body. You? The State? The Federal government? Or should SHE have the right to choose what she does with her body? Would you hand that right over to the government if it was your body?
If you notice no one carries banners and marches saying they're Pro-Abortion. What they say and have on their signs is Pro-Choice. And most liberal women who believe in having the right to control their pregnancies CHOOSE to have the baby. I know I did.
askyagerz
(776 posts)That meme is a blanket statement that doesn't include every case. Of course a man should be able to have his opinion on the matter if the baby if it was conceived mutually. Women should definitely have the final say but saying his opinion doesn't matter is pretty messed up...
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Pro-Abortion and back it up vigorously.
I find that talk extreme, but it exists here.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Pro comprehensive sex ed
Pro contraception
Pro abortion
Pro adoption
Pro IVF
Pro family planning in all forms
I was told this was the future, but I still don't have a flying car, and on the whole we're still cagey, shy puritan primates about sex and reproduction or recreation. Very disappointing.
GreenEyedLefty
(2,073 posts)It's safe, legal, moral and should stay that way.
Heddi
(18,312 posts)I'm pro-abortion. Full stop, no ifs, ands, or butts.
Thanks. Glad I could be of service.
Yours truly,
Heddi, pro-abortion since approximately 1994.
progressoid
(50,011 posts)Unapologetically so. There is nothing extreme about it.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Saying it's WONDERFUL just doesn't play well in most circles, and probably hurts more than helps.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)You think being callous about it plays well across America?
Do tell.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)And how is "playing well" remotely relevant?
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)And the Supreme Court. You don't think that there is a movement right now to ban abortion?
A lot people view it as necessary but certainly not "good", not something to be celebrating. I'm sorry in your area you don't see that, but here in the Midwest that's how it plays out.
I have seen posts on DU where a poster wants MORE abortions, says how much they love it, how great it is, and how Pro Choice is not correct. It should be Pro Abortion.
Seriously, go hold up signs saying "I LOVE Abortion" and see how that will play out. You don't have to rub people's face in it, which seems to be the point of someone saying Pro-Abortion
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Clever strategy.
Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #74)
Post removed
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I don't think that having the country, in those challenging circles see that there are people fully unimpressed by the claimed moral element might help, rather than hurt.
Are we likely to make people who are against abortion more against it for seeing our position?
Are we likely to make people who are ok with abortion, less ok about it for seeing our position?
Why?
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)70% of America is Christian, another 2% Jewish. Democrats won the Catholic vote. Your position lacks some sensitivity to those who view this as a human life, and a very serious and probably unfortunate matter.
You don't need to agree, but handling it without some reverence is counter productive. Yes, I believe it would not be too hard to turn off some voters who currently hold a Pro-Choice position. It at least allows them to say "not for me, but others can make their own choice". Start forcing the hand to Pro-Abortion and that goes away.
progressoid
(50,011 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)That's exactly my point. Frame it differently and you may lose more. Lose more and you lose the Catholic vote. Lose the Catholic vote and you lose elections.
I don't see what there is to gain by insisting it be called "Pro-Abortion" instead of "Pro-Choice". In fact, we have lots to lose but little to gain by doing that. It's self indulgent and pretty stupid from a political standpoint
progressoid
(50,011 posts)Apparently half of those Catholics don't care what their Church thinks. Also, since the faithful demographic is shrinking in America, their influence is also diminished.
More importantly, Planned Parenthood is being de-funded and clinics are being closed around the country. This is no time to be timid.
barbtries
(28,817 posts)one whose mother forced her to have an abortion when she was 14 years old. it wasn't rape, it wasn't pedophilia, it was hormones having their way with a boy and a girl at the wrong time of the month. the girl was 4 months along and hadn't had the guts to tell her mother she was pregnant, but that pregnancy was ended post haste. Later during a visit she did say out loud that although she was catholic, she believed in abortion. bottom line she was not going to allow her daughter to blow the next few years of her life (the girl was a gifted athlete) for a mistake.
another one who, finding out her daughter was 5 months pregnant and unmarried with no prospects, yelled "you have to have an abortion!" because at the end of the day, what the neighbors thought was much more important than what the pope said. the daughter in this case had no intention of ending the pregnancy and ultimately delivered identical twins one month early. while visiting her, some of the neighbors came to visit and they all remarked how they didn't even know she was pregnant. once grandma saw those babies she was the proudest, happiest grandmother imaginable. but she put her daughter through an unreal amount of crap while she was pregnant and had the baby not turned out to be twins, it may have been given up.
this went on during the 1970s. my point is many catholics practice birth control and are pro choice.
the only people that seem able to "force" a particular vocabulary on an issue is anti-abortionists. I refuse to refer to them as "pro-life" and protest that usage every chance i get. i'm pro-life, and i'm pro-abortion on demand.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Among non-Hispanic white people, Trump won. We only won the Hispanic Catholic vote because Trump is basically openly racist against Hispanics. So it over-rode their position on Abortion. They aren't accepting of abortion on the whole. Non-catholic Hispanics are literally 50/50 on abortion being legal. (According to PEW)
If not for Trump's blatant racism, we would not have won the catholic vote at all. Abortion being one of the largest factors.
progressoid
(50,011 posts)It's just a medical procedure.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)As I noted below, using a bit of softer language plays to a Pro-Choice position. Putting it in hard terms is NOT a winning strategy IMO.
Voltaire2
(13,245 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Yes, it's an unfortunate situation. It's not joyous. I know three women who have made the decision to about (I am sure I know more, but three have shared their experience with me). None of them were exactly thrilled about it, although I believe all of them were glad the opportunity exists.
Voltaire2
(13,245 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Is this fun for you?
Voltaire2
(13,245 posts)that the words they use, the framing they put things in, have been crafted by their enemies. Likely you will run away from the realization that you are wrong, that in fact there is nothing unfortunate about it and that we really should stop shaming women who have abortions, but the seeds of doubt will remain.
radical noodle
(8,016 posts)is not usually a pleasant experience. So yeah, I think most women would prefer not to have had to go through that particular procedure, no matter what the reason for it. "Should have done," maybe not... but probably "would have done" something else.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,352 posts)demmiblue
(36,911 posts)OMG... look at all these wimmin folks who want agency over their own bodies!11!!111!
DLevine
(1,788 posts)It just means you support a woman having an abortion if she needs/wants one.
Voltaire2
(13,245 posts)musette_sf
(10,208 posts)MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)GreenEyedLefty
(2,073 posts)I am 46 and currently using an IUD to prevent pregnancy. I have told everyone including my husband that if I got pregnant, it would be the fastest abortion on earth. I am absolutely, unequivocally DONE having kids. So there will be no agonizing, permission getting or any of that nonsense.
One more thing... abortion is absolutely birth control; what else could it possibly be?
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Whatever
GreenEyedLefty
(2,073 posts)If someone places parameters around abortion (i.e. "ideal" scenarios), then they're not really pro-choice.
When it's said that abortion should be safe and legal, it's so it can be as safe and legal (and viable and moral) as any other type of birth control.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)It is and should always be a womans choice
OregonBlue
(7,755 posts)to decide the issue for women.
CousinIT
(9,268 posts)Orrex
(63,261 posts)Last edited Thu Jan 4, 2018, 11:25 AM - Edit history (1)
And that opinion certainly has no bearing on a woman's absolute right of reproductive freedom. He's still entitled to have it, though--good for him!
Incidentally, my opinion is this: men should fight to protect a woman's right of reproductive freedom, and beyond that they (including me) shouldn't flatter themselves to imagine their opinions on the subject have any weight or significance.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Look to the motives. What is the person trying to do; help, or harm? Do you want allies, or do you want to narrow the field of participants?
A woman can have an opinion on funding or access to care for say, prostate cancer, that has weight and significance. Politician, doctor, advocate, you name it. Same is true of a man, for breast cancer. (Granted, that can be self-serving as men CAN get some forms of breast cancer, if rare.)
I want my voice to have impact, particularly with people who oppose abortion. They're the ones we have to get on the same page with us. If they're not the kind of people that will listen to women, fine. I'll have a go. I very desperately want my opinion/reason to be heard in that case.
forgotmylogin
(7,539 posts)is the father in a specific case. The woman should ultimately get to make the decision about her body.
I think a lot of people get tangled up in the "you can be personally anti-abortion and still support the right to choose" dichotomy. It's somewhat similar to "you don't have to be gay to support LGBTQ people and their rights."
Supporting someone's personal rights does not mean you would make the same decisions they would.
Orrex
(63,261 posts)On social media I've seen a number of discussions (not yours, let me be clear) that complain about the father not having any choice in the matter.
Nonsense, I say. He absolutely gets a choice, right up until the moment of ejaculation (or equivalent release of sperm, etc.) At that point, his choice is made, and his choice is over. The woman can thereafter opt to consult him, but he no longer gets to choose.
He can support her decision or not support it, but doing so has no bearing on the responsibility he assumes for the choice that he has already made, and he must live with the consequences of that choice.
For me, it's almost funny how uncomplicated the issue became once I realized the male's actual role in it. If he doesn't want a woman to bring a child to term, all he has to do is not impregnate her. What could be simpler?
MineralMan
(146,345 posts)I recognized what my role was in that decision. All I had to do was avoid doing things that would cause a pregnancy. From that time on, I was very, very careful not to contribute to initiating a pregnancy. It wasn't so difficult, really.
Also, whenever I was in a serious relationship, I discussed my decision with the other person, just to make sure that she was OK with that decision. That discussion ended some relationships, but not others.
It wasn't complicated. My decision was my decision, so it was up to me to avoid reproduction.
CousinIT
(9,268 posts)It's what I've said for a LONG time. Men DO have a choice. They must realize though that choice has a particular scope (limited to a particular space and time) and once he's made his choice there, he's pretty much done.
I agree men have a right to an opinion -- but ultimately the final decision should always be up to the woman. No exceptions.
When men start transforming their opinions or religious beliefs into law and policy which takes away a woman's ability to decide for herself and act on her own behalf - and especially her ability to access the health care necessary for her to do that - then I have an issue with it. Then, they're literally forcing their opinions and / or beliefs onto a woman. And that is unacceptable to me.
IOW men have a choice and a right to their own opinions. But they must realize that choice and those opinions come with non-negotiable limits. And that's because men don't get pregnant or give birth. I'm sorry if men don't like that, but that's the way it is for the human species.
Orrex
(63,261 posts)It is amazing how simple the issue becomes for a man once he recognizes what his actual choice in the matter is.
When I finally realized it, I was embarrassed to have taken so long to comprehend it. I've always argued in favor of the woman's reproductive freedom, of course, but I misunderstood my role in the issue.
Once my eyes were opened...
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)forgotmylogin
(7,539 posts)I'm saying the father should, of course, have input in the matter; he should certainly be able to voice whether he wants to be a father or not, but I agree that the final say belongs to the woman who must determine whether to carry a pregnancy to term and support a child for 18-25 years thereafter. If you want to cut it off at "ejaculation" then that kind of cuts off the voice of half of the people responsible for a potential life. Not every man is looking to cut and run. If a woman wants to ignore everything the guy says...well...I guess that's her choice, but I was speaking more in the context of "A bunch of 65-year-old male senators don't get a say -why should a group of men have any say - my response is the only male who *might possibly* have a legitimate "say" on a pregnancy is the father.
I'm sure you can envision a situation where a young couple is being careful, doing what they're supposed to, and a condom breaks. That sort of complicates "the man's choice ends at ejaculation" because they *both* were not planning to conceive.
Saying "a potential father's choice ends at ejaculation" is about as insensitive as saying "a potential wife's life choices stop mattering when the ring is on her finger".
Mariana
(14,861 posts)and be made to listen to what he has to say?
forgotmylogin
(7,539 posts)In an ideal situation, I would hope she would want to inform the man. I think he should probably listen to what she has to say.
If she wants to do it with nobody else knowing, I understand that too.
Orrex
(63,261 posts)If he is aware of the risks and an accidental pregnancy is the result, then he has made his choice, and his opportunity to choose has passed.
If he is unaware of the risks and an accidental pregnancy is the result, then he has chosen poorly, and his opportunity to choose has passed.
It all becomes crystal clear once you recognize where and when his choice occurs. Before that moment, he is free to do as he chooses; after that moment, he is obligated to accept the consequences of his choice, and he no longer gets a say.
Response to Orrex (Reply #107)
forgotmylogin This message was self-deleted by its author.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)but the woman should have the final say.
What you're saying is the man has the right to express his opinion, but it carries no weight and the woman has no reason or obligation to pay any attention to it.
Therefore, the man has no input.
It's the same as when people say the decision should be between a woman and her doctor. That's also BS. So a woman decides to have an abortion and the doctor says he's pro-life and doesn't think she should.
Is the decision still between the woman and her doctor? BS . It's a woman's decision. People talk about the spouse and doctor just to make it sound better. It's not. It's just a woman's decision and everyone else needs to just shut up.
PS - I actually don't agree with this opinion. I believe every woman has a right to decide if they want to be a mother or not and I believe the same for a man. He has the right to decide whether he wants to be a father or not. I believe in a woman's right to choose and a man's right to choose.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)No one has the right to tell another what she can do with her body.
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)handmade34
(22,759 posts)the question is merely... are you a man? abortion is a woman's choice, a man may have an opinion but should never be able to make a law or dictate what a woman's does when choosing abortion or not
BannonsLiver
(16,542 posts)Do you ask then?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Some of us stand up for women's health, and should not be silenced.
lark
(23,183 posts)We're just saying that the ultimate decision is ours, our bodies, our lives.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)They try to boil everything down to a bumper stick length.
By the "logic" of the meme, nobody who isn't a cop should criticize the shoot first mentality of cops for example.
CrispyQ
(36,552 posts)A perfect meme.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I want my voice, that it should be safe, legal, and readily available, to be heard and respected. I feel bound to throw my weight behind this issue, to teach my son why this is the right position on the issue, and do my part to ensure the conversation moves in the right direction nationally, with both men and women who currently oppose abortion.
It feels like an effort that undermines even those that are trying to do the right thing.
CrispyQ
(36,552 posts)It states the crux of the issue, that's it. Sorry I even tried. This board.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It explicitly states that I should not voice my opinion.
This is a problem, for the reasons I have outlined. It silences an ally to the purpose of keeping abortion safe, legal, and accessible. It does so as collateral damage in the service of silencing men who would try to make abortion illegal.
CrispyQ
(36,552 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Maybe you meant the 'not yours' decision? Sorry, this might be where forum discussion breaks down, if you didn't mean the OP meme.
CrispyQ
(36,552 posts)Apologies.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)marble falls
(57,427 posts)belong to women. I'm glad you believe in safe abortion. I'm sure it must give you some comfort that most women believe in safe vasectomies for us men.
Our place is to support the choice whatever it is, not make a difficult decision more complicated because we have qualms. Our part of the choice ends somewhere just short of the fertilized egg.
Amazing how many men who want women to bear an oops baby won't even pay child support.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It's not about 'should X woman abort or not'.
It's 'Should abortion be legal/accessible/affordable AT ALL'
I have an opinion on that, and I wish to work to get others, both men and women who oppose abortion, to revise their positions. I can't do that if I don't have a voice at all.
That meme says I shouldn't have a voice, or more specifically; I should refrain from using my voice.
Not ok.
marble falls
(57,427 posts)it legal, the issue is about keeping it from being illegal in any manner including equal access. In the end the issue is a woman's issue. As a policy hold all the opinions you want, but when it applies to a specific woman's medical condition and its treatment, your and my opinion needs to be corked unless that woman asks for our $.02.
So voice your opinion on the policy for or against. But cork it over any specific woman's choice regarding her decisions regarding her own condition. That meme is exactly right.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It is not just under legal attack, it's also a moral issue. The religious right is not just chipping away in the various legislatures and courts, they're also chipping away at the social mores of abortion, trying to make it a negative connotation, a guilt trip.
I don't see any point to a meme that would also silence people like me, who do insist there is no negative connotation to abortion, and seek to normalize it's perception across society.
Fucking hell, it happened right here in this thread. Post 21 and the entire subthread under it. Right here on DU. 'ooh we have to be cagey and respectful around people who think it's an "unfortunate" choice and "callous" to normalize it.
Right here on DU.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and we should not discourage them from discussing them either. This is not the way to approach the issue.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)I am a woman so here goes an imo remark for my record of standing up.
I have always supported birth control as an alternative to abortion. This presents me with no moral conflicts, I also support a woman's right to decide what she does with her body.
An unwanted child could become the next rumptillian or Dahmer.
mountain grammy
(26,663 posts)but when it comes to the medical decision of an individual woman, it's nobody's else's business, periord!
47of74
(18,470 posts)And everyone else can fuck off. Insurance companies, politicians, religious assholes, and so on should fuck off and not stick their noses in where it's not wanted. I refuse to tolerate people trying to stick their noses in to my personal medical business, and I will afford everyone else the same consideration.
MurrayDelph
(5,302 posts)is based on the fact that when I was a kid, my dad had to tell his best friend that he had just taken best-friend's daughter to the hospital for complications of a botched back-alley abortion.
So, my view is that abortion should be safe, legal, and nobody's damned business!
handmade34
(22,759 posts)my opinion comes from knowing women who died from back alley abortions and having to 'cause' my own (herbs) before they were legal/accessible...
**every young woman should be in the streets protesting until there is action that will guarantee abortions will always be accessible and safe to every girl/woman who wants one!!
damn, I wish people read and understood history, human psychology and biology
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)How does an MRA tie his shoes? With a knot, necessarily.
Towlie
(5,332 posts)onecent
(6,096 posts)Javaman
(62,534 posts)over the years people have asked me my opinion on abortion, I have always responded, "I have none, it's not my body".
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I do not pass by an opportunity to throw my voice behind a progressive stance on Abortion.
Javaman
(62,534 posts)and I say, "it's the personal choice of the woman, not mine".
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)But there's also the legislative elements of whether it be accessible at all. Currently, that's a battleground.
Javaman
(62,534 posts)we walk the walk.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)They hooked my girlfriend (now my wife) and I up with the pill for a very nominal price when we were first living together as teens.
Paying it forward.
Javaman
(62,534 posts)we're here in Texas.
since the regressive government has been doing all it can to close down clinics, we try and give what we can.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,064 posts)... with a woman for support and transportation.
It was her decision, her right. I supported her right. I support the right that it is the woman's choice.
That, as a man, is my opinion which comes out of my mouth and my fingers.
ProfessorGAC
(65,337 posts)It's simply none of my business. And should it have ever come up with my wife and i, she definitely would have asked my opinion, but the decision was her's to make, and her's alone.
The final decision, even with regard to my wife, was none of my business. She asks for input. I give it. She decides. The decision is not mine to make, ergo, not my business.
I know i'm speaking theoretically, because it never actually occurred, but i'm certain that is the path it would have taken.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)shadowmayor
(1,325 posts)Then you should be in favor of sex education in our schools. To be opposed to this idea is like a pro-lifer being in favor of the death penalty.
Orrex
(63,261 posts)One realizes, at some point, that the GOP's goal is not to prevent abortion but rather to subjugate women.
handmade34
(22,759 posts)not only sex education... but much better and affordable education, especially for women... and equal wages for men and women... equal opportunity for men and women... access to health care... etc... all of these things show to contribute to less unwanted pregnancies and a healthier society
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,926 posts)When my sons were reaching puberty, I told them that if they got a young woman pregnant, that in the end, what to do about the pregnancy was absolutely her choice, no matter what he felt about it.
briv1016
(1,570 posts)MineralMan
(146,345 posts)Hmm...I think I shan't consider that overlong.
LonePirate
(13,437 posts)They are unconstitutional and we need to start framing it that way.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)I don't want to know how the pregnancy was achieved, how it was brought to term, or how it will be delivered. I just want to see his reaction when all the other congressmen tell him he cannot terminate. I think we would see a radical transformation of that congressman's position on abortion.
Ohiogal
(32,149 posts)Because that's how I'd describe myself.
I'm 100% FOR a woman's right to determine what's best for herself and her own body.
But I am also 100% FOR every child being a wanted child, FOR prenatal care for all mom's, FOR health insurance for every child and mom, FOR policies that encourage new mom's to have the time they need to recover from birth and bond with their babies before they must return to work, and FOR a safe, loving, and stable environment for all kids and families.
Pro-lifers are all too often only pro-lifers until the moment of birth.
Anyway, that's my two cents. Spoken as a mom of three adult sons.
pwb
(11,304 posts)Our progressive and liberal wing sometimes leave no room for acceptance only. They think an issue should be absolute and many are not. We democrats are thinkers, not followers. There are many things i accept as a democrat that i don't really approve of, so your not alone. It doesn't help anything to call the baby in the o p photo, THIS.
As a side note, I was just reading recently (and this isn't really news) that the black infant mortality rate here in Ohio is next to the bottom in the whole country. Black babies die within their first year three times as many as white. This is an appalling and abysmal statistic, and our Republican controlled legislature couldn't care less. They claim to be "pro life" --- Kasich has signed 18 abortion restrictions since he's been in office .... but again, once the child is born, everyone turns their backs. It is shameful.
burrowowl
(17,654 posts)where the baby is growing in the fallopian tube, is anacaphelic, not viable, etc. Do we let the mother and or fetus die or we proactive? and incest, etc. Why should the sperm donor or other fanatics have a say?
IronLionZion
(45,615 posts)because no one is entitled to an opinion.
Anti-choice conservatives say they same thing: if you're not an unborn baby, you don't get to have an opinion. There are millions of anti-choice women who have given birth to children. Good luck with the Sarah Palins of the world.