Well, at least there wasn't some fool with a concealed carry permit that started shooting back

[1-Old-Man]

In this state, West Virginia, if there were 200 people in a movie theater you could pretty safely bet that half a dozen of them had a concealed carry permit and half of those would have been carrying. Can you imagine the carnage if some fool had started shooting back, in the dark and smoke and chaos? There would be twice as many dead and the NRA would be proclaiming a new national hero.

[Indydem]

1. You know that for a fact do you?

Your powers of precognition must amaze and excite at dinner parties.

[1-Old-Man]

2. Indeed they do

and yours?

[Indydem]

4. I don't pretend that I know what would happen

In situations that didn't take place.

[FarLeftFist]

31. Actually, Old Man is most likely correct. No one would know who the bad guy was if

everyone had pulled guns. Who shot first? Who's the bad guy? Its dark and smoky. One person pulls a gun and starts shooting, someone else pulls a gun and starts shooting at him thinking they're the bad guy. Then someone else pulls a gun thinking that guy is the bad guy and starts shooting at him, and so on. Never mind the incredibly high number of stray bullets flying and ricocheting around. All in a dark and smoky theater.

[permatex]

37. Yeah

because thats happened before, perhaps you can post a link to that happening.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

41. Plain-clothes or off-duty cops have been killed by other cops arriving on scene before.

[FarLeftFist]

42. You want a link to a group shoot out or victims of stray bullets???

Yeah, surely thats never happened before.

[permatex]

44. A link to CCP holders

drawing their guns and being shot by other CCP holders or cops.

[FarLeftFist]

45. So you're looking for a link to a murder by 2 legal gun holders?

[permatex]

48. Here's what you posted

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1006884

I'm asking you for a link to that ever happening
sorry if I wasn't very clear.

[FarLeftFist]

50. Ever heard of something being unprecedented?

The guy shot 70 people in under 3 minutes and you think more guns is the answer?

[permatex]

51. Where did I say more guns is the answer?

So in other words, you don't have a link.

[Tejas]

6. The lesson here is to kiss your ass goodbye, give up, you're done.

Whatever you do, do NOT attempt to save the lives of your loves ones or anyone else, just give up, you're expendable, the sooner you realize that the sooner...

[rfranklin]

16. From what I read, the people who kept their heads down came out alive...

I sure wouldn't want to be taking on an AK47 with my 9mm handgun. But there are many who have answered the Call of Duty and know they could just plug that bad guy right between the eyes amidst the screaming, gunshots, smoke and confusion.

[slampoet]

9. It is basic behavior chaos analysis.

crack a book, before you crack a joke.

[AndyTiedye]

15. The Shooter Was in Full Body Armor and a Bulletproof Helmet

He would be the least likely person in the theater to get shot.

[1StrongBlackMan]

33. Maybe a lesson from a concealed weapon licensed holding ...

concealed weapon carrying, Tucson shooting survivor might prove informative:

One of the many people at the Tucson Safeway was Joe Zamudio. He is a concealed weapon licensed holder and was armed at the event.

But:

The new poster boy for this agenda is Joe Zamudio, a hero in the Tucson incident. Zamudio was in a nearby drug store when the shooting began, and he was armed. He ran to the scene and helped subdue the killer. Television interviewers are celebrating his courage, and pro-gun blogs are touting his equipment. “Bystander Says Carrying Gun Prompted Him to Help,” says the headline in the Wall Street Journal.

But before we embrace Zamudio’s brave intervention as proof of the value of being armed, let’s hear the whole story. “I came out of that store, I clicked the safety off, and I was ready,” he explained on Fox and Friends. “I had my hand on my gun. I had it in my jacket pocket here. And I came around the corner like this.” Zamudio demonstrated how his shooting hand was wrapped around the weapon, poised to draw and fire. As he rounded the corner, he saw a man holding a gun. “And that’s who I at first thought was the shooter,” Zamudio recalled. “I told him to ‘Drop it, drop it!’ ”

But the man with the gun wasn’t the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. “Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess,” the interviewer pointed out.

http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/01/11/concealed-carrying-bystander-nearly-killed-innocent-man-during-tucson-shooting/

Now speculate what might never happened had it have been dark, smoky, loud and a Kevlar-clad shooter. I think it's safe to say that it would have been worse.

[permatex]

39. So in other words

he hadn't yet drawn his gun, he correctly assessed the situation and realized that the man holding the gun was not the shooter, where's the problem?

[1StrongBlackMan]

47. No ...

He drew his weapon but did not fire.

But that said, if you do not see the problem that this creates I cannot/will not spell it out for you because I doubt that you will understand.

[permatex]

49. I stand corrected,

He drew his weapon, he correctly assessed the situation and did not fire. Where is the problem?

[1StrongBlackMan]

54. Nevermind n/t

[Tejas]

3. Or a cop that started shooting back.

Can you imagine the carnage if a cop had started shooting back, in the dark and smoke and chaos?

[NCTraveler]

5. Or a Klingon. That would have been some bad shit. nt.

[longship]

10. But phasers would be utterly cool

You just set them on stun.

[MattBaggins]

53. Klingons don't use phasers

they use disruptors.

[longship]

55. Damn! I suppose those can't be set to stun, eh? nt

.

[krhines]

7. Not sure about my stance on gun control

But I agree that if this had turned into a shoot out it could have been worse.

[TouchOfGray]

8. Century Aurora 16 has a no gun policy posted

No legal CC owner would have had a gun with them.

The only person who ignored the law was the criminal, murdering bastard.

[pipoman]

11. What a

simply ridiculous assertion..maybe you can list the examples where that has ever happened? Really seeing an abundance of silly threads these days...

[Tejas]

12. His magic 8-ball trumps your common sense.

[phleshdef]

13. You are correct. And if officers arrived in the middle of it, they wouldn't know who the bad guy was

People pushing the "if others had been packing guns" meme are short sighted idiots.

[aquart]

22. Yes. Myopic Mini-minds.

[booley]

14. question for all the people attacking this post

how many of you have ever actually been exposed to tear gas?

I have.

It's blinding. It's distracting.

And it was dark in that theatre which doesnt' exactly help either.

And yet you want us to believe that it would have had no effect on the ability to target the right person and not shoot bystanders who would be running past you?

Really?

So in that situation how exactly was one supposed to aim? Via taste? Touch?

[sarisataka]

17. I have as well

so I know it takes about ten seconds to have full effect.
i also have training in combat indoors, in the dark, in confused situations with innocent bystanders.

So if I was in the theater, within sight and able to identify the shooter, knowing in under ten seconds I will become rather impaired, would I have taken the shot?


Maybe.


There are so many factors that are unique in every situation that you cannot say for sure when it is real life. If I was close enough given the pistol I would be carrying and there were no obstructions (i.e. other people) and able to clearly see a vulnerable point (armor doesn't cover everything)... probably. After making sure my family was moving to safety and they, along with others, are clear in case I suddenly become a bullet magnet.

[permatex]

21. Just about anyone ever in the military has been

See my post upstream.

[4th law of robotics]

25. You assume that person blinded by gas, if in possession of a gun

would feel obligated to start shooting wildly about.

[Tejas]

29. Cops would have been useless too.

tear gas It's blinding. It's distracting. And it was dark in that theatre which doesnt' exactly help either.

[CTyankee]

36. It seems to me that the shooter had this all figured out. He figured that there would be

folks carrying in that audience, being Colorado and all, and that is why he wore the body armor and threw the tear gas canister. He simply created the situation where he could foil just about any attempt to stop him.

This just shows how empty the argument about how individuals with guns can prevent shootings really is. It doesn't take a Ph.D. student to figure it out...even with the most heavily armed populations in the country.

[jillan]

18. I always like to tell the story at the Gabby Giffords shooting. There was someone who came

out of that Safeway store, saw what was going on, got his gun out and was ready to shoot.
But the person he was going to shoot wasn't Jared Loughner.

People rushed over to him, screamed at him, got in his way and saved anyone else from getting shot.

That horrific event could have been worse just because someone had a gun.

[permatex]

19. How do you know?

Most CCP holders wouldn't have started shooting considering the conditions inside the theater.
I know I wouldn't have. I would have drawn my weapon and kept it discreetly at my side in case he started coming at me, otherwise it would stay at my side as I unassed the building as fast as possible.
You seem to think that CCP holders are some sort of cowboys who can't wait to start shooting, nothing could be further from the truth.

[booley]

23. but if they wouldnt' have shot

and right nwo you and the responder to my query said you probably wouldnt' have... then doesn't that refute the idea that someone with a gun would have been any help at all?

I'm not seeing how this refutes the OP.

[permatex]

28. I honestly can't say

But knowing what we now know about full body armor, it probably wouldn't have made any difference unless to distract the shooter so others could take him down, downside is that the CCP holder would probably either get wounded or get dead.

What I'm diputing is his statement that there were no CCP holders there that morning of which he has no knowledge of.

[rl6214]

57. IT all depends on how close you are to the shooter

I was at a midnight showing of Batman that same night and was sitting in about the 15th row. From what I have read he started shooting at about mid level and up towards the top of the auditorium. I would not have had a shot at him from where I was but if I was within are few rows of him it would not have been out of the question.

[Lionessa]

46. Exactly.

[aquart]

20. How do we know that until they've checked all the crime scene goodies?

What happens if we dig a bullet out of a victim and it ISN'T from one of the shooter's guns?

[4th law of robotics]

24. The movie theater prohibited people from carrying guns

yes, even CHL holders.

Also since mass shootings like this are apparently an every-day occurrence now (just check out GD) and CHLs are issued by the millions it should be easy to find a scenario like the one you describe.

[gregoire]

26. You can't find a scenario like that...

because they don't exist. We've never read about one of those violent CCW people ever stopping a crime. They instead cause crime.

[4th law of robotics]

27. That is just blatantly untrue

there are regular stories of a person using a gun in self-defense.

The "room full of confused CHL holders wildly shooting in all directions and only adding to the body count" scenario is one that stubbornly refuses to ever play out.

[permatex]

30. And that statement would make you a l**r

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=50652
Oh look, a CCP holder stops an armed robbery in it's tracks.

Wanna retract that statement now.

[gregoire]

32. Your best example includes a broken gun and a sports device?

Really? It was the CCW holder that decided to endanger the public by opening fire at random. The two criminals in this case could not have shot someone. The CCW actually did shoot someone.

[permatex]

35. I just proved that you lied

and thats the best you can come up with? Ok, I'll play your game, how was he to know that the gun wasn't operable? The one with the bat had already demonstrated his violence by smashing a monitor, He didn't fire randomly, Your damn right he shot them and justifiably so as the police and DA said. Now if you have evidence of what you say, by all means, contact the DA and turn you "evidence" over to them.

[permatex]

40. Yup

just as I thought

[redroof]

34. Yep... it could have wound up like this....

[Lex]

38. Wow, earlier today you'd heard nothing about the case (according to you)

and now you have so many ideas about it all.

Interesting.

[1-Old-Man]

43. No, that's not accurate. Earlier today I did not recognize the last name of the shooter in a post

In a post that only used his last name and made no mention of the shooter, only something about him being bald and being on TV. On my TV there is a program called something like Holmes on homes and the guy on the show is bald, so I thought that is what they might be talking about, but really could not tell.

As for the shooting, I have made it a point to not watch a single thing about it on TV myself, all I know of it I have read here, and almost all if that has been speculation, which is exactly the conversation that I added to with my own speculation. If you don't care for it I guess that's just how it is.

[handmade34]

52. well...

I can only imagine some things because I do not have a gun (but my daughter does carry and I know many cops)...

I would imagine that those same gun-toting people who are quick enough thinking to assess the situation (given the circumstances), retrieve their gun, and figure where to shoot to maim this man with full body armor (?)...

would be quick enough thinking to somehow take him down and disable him... he did have a gasmask on that limited his vision and I can imagine a couple of people tackling him from behind... no way to know in the situation??

[rl6214]

56. And you KNOW this...how?