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2nd Amendment (Original Post) SHRED Feb 2018 OP
Here they come... Kingofalldems Feb 2018 #1
?? SHRED Feb 2018 #2
Who? linuxman Feb 2018 #6
Is that only what the First amendment should protect? former9thward Feb 2018 #35
That's my point... linuxman Feb 2018 #36
Sometimes I wonder MustLoveBeagles Feb 2018 #3
I think it has been also SHRED Feb 2018 #5
I agree MustLoveBeagles Feb 2018 #11
When you organize a revolutionary government with no standing army... yallerdawg Feb 2018 #29
we screwed up when we starting taking the de facto meaning of it to be: Takket Feb 2018 #4
The founders didn't really want a standing federal army lapfog_1 Feb 2018 #7
Technically. Blue_true Feb 2018 #16
Right, if the intent was just to allow anyone to own a gun lapfog_1 Feb 2018 #25
The "well regulated militia part" makes the NRA choke on its own bile. So they removed it Fred Sanders Feb 2018 #31
As you note, the word own does not appear in the wording A HERETIC I AM Feb 2018 #41
They never even imagined this! democratisphere Feb 2018 #8
This is a great question BannonsLiver Feb 2018 #9
NO Ferrets are Cool Feb 2018 #10
The 2A is not the problem hack89 Feb 2018 #12
So why when someone brings it up they are called anti 2nd Amendment Kingofalldems Feb 2018 #15
Ignore them would be my advice hack89 Feb 2018 #20
Post removed Post removed Feb 2018 #37
.... Kingofalldems Feb 2018 #17
Videos don't trump Supreme Court rulings. Nt hack89 Feb 2018 #22
They wrote a document for their time. Blue_true Feb 2018 #13
Scalia said the 2A allows for strict regulation of guns hack89 Feb 2018 #24
Then I apologize, I attributed something to him that I was wrong about. nt Blue_true Feb 2018 #27
What the Founding Fathers intended when they ...... ProudMNDemocrat Feb 2018 #14
Shame? Blue_true Feb 2018 #26
When they lived the militia was the army. Igel Feb 2018 #18
Random 2A thoughts. moondust Feb 2018 #19
A rifle from the Founders day: Musket loader. panader0 Feb 2018 #21
Not much good for mass school shootings, is it? NRA fuckers avoid all mention of why and when Fred Sanders Feb 2018 #32
piss on the 2A KG Feb 2018 #23
The 2nd Amendment does not force white wing gun-humpers to arm up and Hoyt Feb 2018 #28
More needs to be done Buckeye Barney Feb 2018 #30
This question misses the point and aids the NRA argument GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #33
The founders thought Americans might have at least an ounce of common fucking sense. hadEnuf Feb 2018 #34
the founders screwed up all kinds of way, this is just one of them samir.g Feb 2018 #38
The NRA was taken over by libertarians in the 70s Roland99 Feb 2018 #39
NO !!! 2nd Amendment was a "Whites Only" Law then and its a "Whites Only" law now. uponit7771 Feb 2018 #40
The entire premise of "Western" Civilization is a white supremacist construct Fluke a Snooker Feb 2018 #43
This is why the GOP has to be banned Fluke a Snooker Feb 2018 #42
 

linuxman

(2,337 posts)
6. Who?
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:38 PM
Feb 2018

Constitutional originalists/literalists, typing away on their movable type printing presses (The landowning White male ones, anyway)?

 

SHRED

(28,136 posts)
5. I think it has been also
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:37 PM
Feb 2018

It wasn't written explicitly enough as far as I can tell. Too much wiggle room for something this important.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
29. When you organize a revolutionary government with no standing army...
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:33 PM
Feb 2018

and you're trying to get the former colonies to adopt the new constitution and form a new nation, I think the 2nd and most important 3rd Amendment become quite clear!

Takket

(21,574 posts)
4. we screwed up when we starting taking the de facto meaning of it to be:
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:34 PM
Feb 2018

"Anyone can own as many guns, of whatever type, and ammo that they want."

lapfog_1

(29,205 posts)
7. The founders didn't really want a standing federal army
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:39 PM
Feb 2018

so "militia" was the compromise.

militias needed firearms... hence the 2nd.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
16. Technically.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:03 PM
Feb 2018

Since the founders did not want a standing military, it is possible to argue that there is no constitutional basis for the military. That last argument shows the insane aspect to the claim that any citizen has a right to a gun and take it anywhere - it is doubtful that the founders meant such a thing in relationship to gun ownership.

lapfog_1

(29,205 posts)
25. Right, if the intent was just to allow anyone to own a gun
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:15 PM
Feb 2018

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

they would have skipped the first part entirely... and simply written "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

Simple declarative statement.

But they didn't write it that way... and the gunners dance around this all the time as if it was only written the simple declarative way. It's not like the founders didn't have a few people who could write declarations.

Also, a lot of people treat the founders as if this was handed down from God or something... it's an amendment! So it was a correction or addition to a less than perfect Constitution... not only that we have passed and repealed other amendments...

I think if the founders knew that today would happen or Sandy Hook would happen... I'd like to think they would have written something different.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
31. The "well regulated militia part" makes the NRA choke on its own bile. So they removed it
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:42 PM
Feb 2018

from their version of the second amendment at their national HQ edifice!

Long past due to revisit wrongly decided Heller.

A HERETIC I AM

(24,370 posts)
41. As you note, the word own does not appear in the wording
Thu Feb 15, 2018, 03:22 AM
Feb 2018

It could be argued that “keep and bear” are different from own

BannonsLiver

(16,387 posts)
9. This is a great question
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:40 PM
Feb 2018

One I've debated many times. My final decision: the founders couldn't have conceived of weapons we have now, if they had, it might have been a different story. There were also other concerns, like future wars (invasions) with Great Britain we don't have to worry about today.

Not to let them off the hook though. Since the Trump cabal began, it's become evident they fucked up a few things not directly related to the 2nd amendment not the least of which is we are having an ongoing debate as to whether or not a president can commit a crime, something that should have been set in stone from the get go.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
12. The 2A is not the problem
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:48 PM
Feb 2018

It does not prevent strict regulation of guns. AWBs, registration, mandatory training, licensing
are all Constitutional.

Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #15)

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
13. They wrote a document for their time.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:54 PM
Feb 2018

That is why socalled "strict originalists" like the late Justice Scalia, Gorsuch, Alio make me want to scream. The founders made the Constitution amendable because they were learned people that knew that time and circumstances change

When the founders wrote the document, people were mostly farmers and frontier people, they needed guns for hunting and protection. In addition, the country did not have a professional military, when conflict happened, people were drawn from farms and settlements and asked to bring their guns.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
24. Scalia said the 2A allows for strict regulation of guns
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:12 PM
Feb 2018

AWBs, registration, etc are all perfectly legal.

ProudMNDemocrat

(16,786 posts)
14. What the Founding Fathers intended when they ......
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 10:57 PM
Feb 2018


Wrote the 2nd Amendment was that America just came through a war for independence with a tyrannical country. America was still a vast, undiscovered , and dangerous country. Those who had served in the fight for independence were able to keep their weapons in a regulated militia to protect their state from an enemy, hunt game for food, protect themselves from danger. Regulated militias were established because there was no standing army at the time.

The NRA started out as a group out to train people to responsibly use guns, promote safety, the enjoyment of hunting, and marksmanship . The past 35 years, the NRA became more political. Opposing any changes to guns and sensible laws to keep people safe. The time has come to say to the NRA , enough.

Perhaps it is time to shame Republicans and Democrats who are on the take by the NRA in ads this election cycle.

Igel

(35,317 posts)
18. When they lived the militia was the army.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:05 PM
Feb 2018

If you weren't in heavily settled areas, you might be attacked by Indians, sometimes put up to it by the French or the British. By virtue of being a while male over a certain age, you were in the militia.

Now, the gun-bearing clause doesn't pertain just to the militia. But in order to have a well-equipped and trained militia, you had to have guns fairly common among the population for self defense. Even if the guns then weren't what they are now. However, advancements had been made during the lifetime of the framers of the Constitution, and I don't see any reason why they thought that there'd be no advancements in the technology. So at least the next step or two after 1790 in firearm 'progress' is handily included. Semi-automatics came later, but as semiautomatic pistols guns became more common in the US in the last 70 years the homicide rate has declined; we've had some of the more lethal weapons for a while, but the recent increase doesn't track that well with their ownership rate.

Dueling was accepted by many, so the idea of using lethal force to settle a dispute wasn't unthinkable. But there were rules, and one of them was that if you screwed up you screwed up. However, fighting to defend your honor--which is what many murders these days boil down to--was a accepted practice for some. (No, I have no idea how it fit in with homicide laws.)

However, social attitudes among the educated and converted were different. Rage wasn't authentic; grievance wasn't celebrated. People had a harder time being strangers. Groups were separated by distance. If you nurtured a grievance against a group, it would be a group fairly like your own and you'd go to fight it out with them and resolve it before you butchered their entire family or you'd be stopped by your peers. It was unlikely that you'd be supported in something that foolhardy and find a peer group that would say, "Atta boy!" Unlike now. Or it was against a group that was sufficiently distinct that there'd be inter-group hostilities which would, again, be definitively resolved.

The founders also assumed a different population. They assumed that the population of a viable democracy had to be virtuous, and had a specific meaning of virtue in mind. Many consider their definition to be foolishness, even if JFR still hewed to something very much like it, if not identical with it. Even those that still hold to that definition these days find that they feel like fools taken advantage of when they practice it: It presupposes a commons that everybody but they has set upon to divvy up while they continue to maintain it at personal cost.

moondust

(19,988 posts)
19. Random 2A thoughts.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:07 PM
Feb 2018

A single-shot musket is not a tool of mass murder. Don't know if the Founders could have imagined that innovation would eventually produce the handy-dandy tools of mass murder.

Part of the justification for 2A may have been to appease slave owners whose slave economy would likely collapse without the threat of a bullet in the back of renegade slaves. Slave patrols wouldn't be nearly as effective with whips and swords. "Django Unchained" was revealing in this respect.

When 2A was adopted in 1791 the U.S. was still largely undeveloped and settlers were moving west where there were threats from bears, mountain lions, wolves, and of course the "natives." Law enforcement--on horseback--might be a long ride away. You're basically on your own out there.

Didn't the British to some extent deny the colonists the right to maintain the arms necessary to defend themselves, perhaps creating a "never again" attitude among the Founders?

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
32. Not much good for mass school shootings, is it? NRA fuckers avoid all mention of why and when
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:44 PM
Feb 2018

the second was enacted. It is now a relic of a bygone time, as you clearly illustrate.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
28. The 2nd Amendment does not force white wing gun-humpers to arm up and
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:26 PM
Feb 2018

indoctrinate their kids into the gun culture. It’s their sick choice.

Buckeye Barney

(4 posts)
30. More needs to be done
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:36 PM
Feb 2018

Unfortunately, this is a Republican and Democrat problem. Yes, the Founding Father did not look towards the future whereas guns like the ones we have today would be used to kill on a mass scale.
If anything, they were worried about England, mass insurrection or another group of individuals overthrowing their very fragile Republic.
Today, we have people who glorify the gun life. I personally know many responsible gun owners. They own them, use them for entertainment in a controlled setting as well as hunting.
I have never come across a person who doesn't respect a gun because they know the original purpose of a gun.
I don't own a firearm but that doesn't mean I wouldn't ever and I love knowing that if I ever want to do so, I could.
I firmly believe that we need to look at the mental health of our society, especially those individuals who are on prescribed medication for mental illnesses.
We need to ensure that guns are put away properly, meaning that those who own guns have the proper locking mechanisms and gun safes in place so as children can't gain access to them. If you have an individual in your household who has a mental illness, guns can't be in the vicinity of that individual. If you are caught with a gun under the room with a person who has been diagnosed, you lose that right.
There are so many other ways to control the way guns are acquired without infringing on the law abiding citizen but we have the NRA and other organizations that feel giving up one freedom will be a slippery slope. But isn't losing one life? We need to change as a society and begin to address the real problems because it's not just a gun issue, it's more than that and until we're willing to accept that there is more to our problem, both parties are going to push this down the road. So the question is, how many is too many?

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
33. This question misses the point and aids the NRA argument
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:47 PM
Feb 2018

Not at all saying that the author of the OP intended to do so.

But the Supreme Court, and even Scalia ruled they could be tightly regulated.

We could ban AR15s tomorrow.

The problem is the political will. Not the 2nd amendment.

samir.g

(835 posts)
38. the founders screwed up all kinds of way, this is just one of them
Thu Feb 15, 2018, 12:59 AM
Feb 2018

The 2nd amendment needs to be repealed.

Roland99

(53,342 posts)
39. The NRA was taken over by libertarians in the 70s
Thu Feb 15, 2018, 01:00 AM
Feb 2018

They changed policy to become ammosexual, guns everywhere, GOP-buying, scum sucking fuckers

 

Fluke a Snooker

(404 posts)
43. The entire premise of "Western" Civilization is a white supremacist construct
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 01:19 PM
Feb 2018

White oppression is a millennia-long scourge on humanity and must be destroyed.

 

Fluke a Snooker

(404 posts)
42. This is why the GOP has to be banned
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 01:18 PM
Feb 2018

Pure and simple. Ban the GOP, the Constitution follows suit and we can become globally accepted again. The 2nd Amendment would be repealed bigger than a wart on Trump's ass.

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