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Did the Founders screw up when they wrote this amendment?
How could they have foreseen this?
Kingofalldems
(38,458 posts)linuxman
(2,337 posts)Constitutional originalists/literalists, typing away on their movable type printing presses (The landowning White male ones, anyway)?
former9thward
(32,017 posts)Printing presses that existed in the 1700s?
linuxman
(2,337 posts)MustLoveBeagles
(11,611 posts)I think the original meaning of the amendment has been twisted beyond recognition.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)It wasn't written explicitly enough as far as I can tell. Too much wiggle room for something this important.
MustLoveBeagles
(11,611 posts)Most of the other amendments didn't have this ambiguity.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)and you're trying to get the former colonies to adopt the new constitution and form a new nation, I think the 2nd and most important 3rd Amendment become quite clear!
Takket
(21,574 posts)"Anyone can own as many guns, of whatever type, and ammo that they want."
lapfog_1
(29,205 posts)so "militia" was the compromise.
militias needed firearms... hence the 2nd.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Since the founders did not want a standing military, it is possible to argue that there is no constitutional basis for the military. That last argument shows the insane aspect to the claim that any citizen has a right to a gun and take it anywhere - it is doubtful that the founders meant such a thing in relationship to gun ownership.
lapfog_1
(29,205 posts)"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
they would have skipped the first part entirely... and simply written "The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."
Simple declarative statement.
But they didn't write it that way... and the gunners dance around this all the time as if it was only written the simple declarative way. It's not like the founders didn't have a few people who could write declarations.
Also, a lot of people treat the founders as if this was handed down from God or something... it's an amendment! So it was a correction or addition to a less than perfect Constitution... not only that we have passed and repealed other amendments...
I think if the founders knew that today would happen or Sandy Hook would happen... I'd like to think they would have written something different.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)from their version of the second amendment at their national HQ edifice!
Long past due to revisit wrongly decided Heller.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,370 posts)It could be argued that keep and bear are different from own
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)They never imagined a lot of what is going on these days!
BannonsLiver
(16,387 posts)One I've debated many times. My final decision: the founders couldn't have conceived of weapons we have now, if they had, it might have been a different story. There were also other concerns, like future wars (invasions) with Great Britain we don't have to worry about today.
Not to let them off the hook though. Since the Trump cabal began, it's become evident they fucked up a few things not directly related to the 2nd amendment not the least of which is we are having an ongoing debate as to whether or not a president can commit a crime, something that should have been set in stone from the get go.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,106 posts)End of story.
hack89
(39,171 posts)It does not prevent strict regulation of guns. AWBs, registration, mandatory training, licensing
are all Constitutional.
Kingofalldems
(38,458 posts)by the NRA and gun worshipers?
hack89
(39,171 posts)Labels are a distraction.
Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #15)
Post removed
Kingofalldems
(38,458 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)That is why socalled "strict originalists" like the late Justice Scalia, Gorsuch, Alio make me want to scream. The founders made the Constitution amendable because they were learned people that knew that time and circumstances change
When the founders wrote the document, people were mostly farmers and frontier people, they needed guns for hunting and protection. In addition, the country did not have a professional military, when conflict happened, people were drawn from farms and settlements and asked to bring their guns.
hack89
(39,171 posts)AWBs, registration, etc are all perfectly legal.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)ProudMNDemocrat
(16,786 posts)Wrote the 2nd Amendment was that America just came through a war for independence with a tyrannical country. America was still a vast, undiscovered , and dangerous country. Those who had served in the fight for independence were able to keep their weapons in a regulated militia to protect their state from an enemy, hunt game for food, protect themselves from danger. Regulated militias were established because there was no standing army at the time.
The NRA started out as a group out to train people to responsibly use guns, promote safety, the enjoyment of hunting, and marksmanship . The past 35 years, the NRA became more political. Opposing any changes to guns and sensible laws to keep people safe. The time has come to say to the NRA , enough.
Perhaps it is time to shame Republicans and Democrats who are on the take by the NRA in ads this election cycle.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)If Sandy Hook did not chane minds, I don't think shaming will.
Igel
(35,317 posts)If you weren't in heavily settled areas, you might be attacked by Indians, sometimes put up to it by the French or the British. By virtue of being a while male over a certain age, you were in the militia.
Now, the gun-bearing clause doesn't pertain just to the militia. But in order to have a well-equipped and trained militia, you had to have guns fairly common among the population for self defense. Even if the guns then weren't what they are now. However, advancements had been made during the lifetime of the framers of the Constitution, and I don't see any reason why they thought that there'd be no advancements in the technology. So at least the next step or two after 1790 in firearm 'progress' is handily included. Semi-automatics came later, but as semiautomatic pistols guns became more common in the US in the last 70 years the homicide rate has declined; we've had some of the more lethal weapons for a while, but the recent increase doesn't track that well with their ownership rate.
Dueling was accepted by many, so the idea of using lethal force to settle a dispute wasn't unthinkable. But there were rules, and one of them was that if you screwed up you screwed up. However, fighting to defend your honor--which is what many murders these days boil down to--was a accepted practice for some. (No, I have no idea how it fit in with homicide laws.)
However, social attitudes among the educated and converted were different. Rage wasn't authentic; grievance wasn't celebrated. People had a harder time being strangers. Groups were separated by distance. If you nurtured a grievance against a group, it would be a group fairly like your own and you'd go to fight it out with them and resolve it before you butchered their entire family or you'd be stopped by your peers. It was unlikely that you'd be supported in something that foolhardy and find a peer group that would say, "Atta boy!" Unlike now. Or it was against a group that was sufficiently distinct that there'd be inter-group hostilities which would, again, be definitively resolved.
The founders also assumed a different population. They assumed that the population of a viable democracy had to be virtuous, and had a specific meaning of virtue in mind. Many consider their definition to be foolishness, even if JFR still hewed to something very much like it, if not identical with it. Even those that still hold to that definition these days find that they feel like fools taken advantage of when they practice it: It presupposes a commons that everybody but they has set upon to divvy up while they continue to maintain it at personal cost.
moondust
(19,988 posts)A single-shot musket is not a tool of mass murder. Don't know if the Founders could have imagined that innovation would eventually produce the handy-dandy tools of mass murder.
Part of the justification for 2A may have been to appease slave owners whose slave economy would likely collapse without the threat of a bullet in the back of renegade slaves. Slave patrols wouldn't be nearly as effective with whips and swords. "Django Unchained" was revealing in this respect.
When 2A was adopted in 1791 the U.S. was still largely undeveloped and settlers were moving west where there were threats from bears, mountain lions, wolves, and of course the "natives." Law enforcement--on horseback--might be a long ride away. You're basically on your own out there.
Didn't the British to some extent deny the colonists the right to maintain the arms necessary to defend themselves, perhaps creating a "never again" attitude among the Founders?
panader0
(25,816 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)the second was enacted. It is now a relic of a bygone time, as you clearly illustrate.
KG
(28,751 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)indoctrinate their kids into the gun culture. Its their sick choice.
Buckeye Barney
(4 posts)Unfortunately, this is a Republican and Democrat problem. Yes, the Founding Father did not look towards the future whereas guns like the ones we have today would be used to kill on a mass scale.
If anything, they were worried about England, mass insurrection or another group of individuals overthrowing their very fragile Republic.
Today, we have people who glorify the gun life. I personally know many responsible gun owners. They own them, use them for entertainment in a controlled setting as well as hunting.
I have never come across a person who doesn't respect a gun because they know the original purpose of a gun.
I don't own a firearm but that doesn't mean I wouldn't ever and I love knowing that if I ever want to do so, I could.
I firmly believe that we need to look at the mental health of our society, especially those individuals who are on prescribed medication for mental illnesses.
We need to ensure that guns are put away properly, meaning that those who own guns have the proper locking mechanisms and gun safes in place so as children can't gain access to them. If you have an individual in your household who has a mental illness, guns can't be in the vicinity of that individual. If you are caught with a gun under the room with a person who has been diagnosed, you lose that right.
There are so many other ways to control the way guns are acquired without infringing on the law abiding citizen but we have the NRA and other organizations that feel giving up one freedom will be a slippery slope. But isn't losing one life? We need to change as a society and begin to address the real problems because it's not just a gun issue, it's more than that and until we're willing to accept that there is more to our problem, both parties are going to push this down the road. So the question is, how many is too many?
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Not at all saying that the author of the OP intended to do so.
But the Supreme Court, and even Scalia ruled they could be tightly regulated.
We could ban AR15s tomorrow.
The problem is the political will. Not the 2nd amendment.
hadEnuf
(2,191 posts)samir.g
(835 posts)The 2nd amendment needs to be repealed.
Roland99
(53,342 posts)They changed policy to become ammosexual, guns everywhere, GOP-buying, scum sucking fuckers
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)Fluke a Snooker
(404 posts)White oppression is a millennia-long scourge on humanity and must be destroyed.
Fluke a Snooker
(404 posts)Pure and simple. Ban the GOP, the Constitution follows suit and we can become globally accepted again. The 2nd Amendment would be repealed bigger than a wart on Trump's ass.