Slavery and the 2nd Amendment - just as destructive to the nation

[KitSileya]

It is clear to me, in the safety of living outside the US, that the 2nd Amendment is as detrimental to the well-being of the nation as slavery was. I see those who defend it the same way I see those who defended slavery back then - they will be roundly condemned by history, and they will be considered wrong, and evil, and I hope we will have a movement not too far into the future of removing statues and renaming high schools if they honor people who supported the second amendment.

The US is a very sick country, and more and more I don't think it can be saved. Th Republicans have destroyed its very essence, and they have used among other things the 2nd amendment to do it. It's bad enough to a have a toxic culture of racism, misogyny, and homophobia among the general population, but when that is combined with weapons - weapons that might aptly be termed weapons of mass destruction because they kill so many so fast, I don't see how the US will ever manage to become a decent country.

[MichMary]

1. So, owning a gun is as bad as owning a human being?

Seriously???

[KitSileya]

2. It destroys the fabric of society, so ordinary citizens owning weapons meant to kill loads of humans

is as bad as owning humans, yes.

[tblue37]

4. Those who fetishize originalism might even prefer to return to slavery, since

that was part of the original document, as was the idea of counting slaves as just 3/5 of a person.

[KitSileya]

6. Oh, we very well know that the repukes want to go back to a slave-owning society.

They don't care too much about the skin color of those slaves, but they have a special hatred for Black Americans and for women, whom they also want to see enslaved again. There's a general racism and misogyny and homophobia in American culture that transcends party lines, though, that combined with gun ownership makes for a dystopian trajectory for the American nation. Most, if not all, mass shooters have a history of domestic violence. Often they target minorities. The NRA and the repukes use Black Americans as bogeymen to scare white men and women into buying guns and more guns mean more deaths.

[BigmanPigman]

3. Read the last three sentences of the 2nd amend.

This was the Founding Father's intent 250 years ago.

The Second Amendment of the United States Constitution reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Such language has created considerable debate regarding the Amendment's intended scope. On the one hand, some believe that the Amendment's phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" creates an individual constitutional right for citizens of the United States. Under this "individual right theory," the United States Constitution restricts legislative bodies from prohibiting firearm possession, or at the very least, the Amendment renders prohibitory and restrictive regulation presumptively unconstitutional. On the other hand, some scholars point to the prefatory language "a well regulated Militia" to argue that the Framers intended only to restrict Congress from legislating away a state's right to self-defense. Scholars have come to call this theory "the collective rights theory." A collective rights theory of the Second Amendment asserts that citizens do not have an individual right to possess guns and that local, state, and federal legislative bodies therefore possess the authority to regulate firearms without implicating a constitutional right.

[hack89]

5. When in American history has the private ownership of guns outside of the militia

not been the norm? If a collective right was the intent, where are the examples and case laws that show that the FF's meant to limit gun ownership to militia service?

[BigmanPigman]

7. Have you ever been shot at?

Have you ever heard the whizzing sound of a bullet 1 foot from your face while walking down a street in a safe, well lit city?

Have you ever had to lead "routine" active shooter drills with your first grade students?

Have you ever been in a classroom that only locks FROM THE OUTSIDE!

I HAVE! FUCK GUNS and all those who support them.

[hack89]

8. Yes. I am a combat veteran

If you can't respond to a reasonable question without insults, why do you think you will actually change things for the better?

[BigmanPigman]

9. That is my point.

You are comparing apples and oranges. I was a private citizen when I was shot at. My job was to teach, not shield my students from bullets. Veterans are 100% different and you know it. Stop making excuses.

[hack89]

10. I didn't make any excuses. I merely questioned your grasp of US history.

Last edited Thu Feb 15, 2018, 01:19 PM - Edit history (1)

as your OP clearly points out, it is not clear cut exactly what the founding fathers intended. One would think that if the collective right associated with militia service was their goal, there would be historical examples and case law showing this. That's all.

[BigmanPigman]

11. I think we should make examples then since none

currently exist in case law. That is what the GOP and big$$$ is stopping from even getting started and it gets worse and worse. If there is no precedent to refer to by the lawmakers then they need to stop using it as an excuse to not take action? Isn't thar their job? But look at who is paying them. The NRA, not their government paycheck. How many more victims will it take???

[hack89]

12. There is nothing stopping strict regulation of guns

besides a lack of broad, strong public support. Not sure what else I can say - magical thinking won't work. A smart, well thought out public campaign is needed like we saw for marriage equality. A lot of people working at the local level to change things.

[EX500rider]

13. "The US is a very sick country"

Are the 1/2 the countries in the world with a higher homicide rate then the US "sicker" then the US also?

[KitSileya]

14. Yes, they are sick as well.

I wonder how the numbers would be if you include accidents and suicides by gun in that chart... Not to mention if you make a chart of people under 15 killing with gun - not counting children forced to be child soldiers who can be argued (no matter how horrific) aren't civilian, but counting accidental discharges caused by children.....

[EX500rider]

15. Suicides and homicides are 2 different things.

But if guns drove suicide rates then Japans and Korea's rate would not be worse then the US's, which they are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_suicide_rate

And accidental deaths are a tiny fraction of firearm deaths.

[EX500rider]

16. So Costa Rica, Bahamas, Greenland, Peru, Panama, Argentina, Jamaica etc.

All examples of "sick" countries because 1 person in 10,000 decides to kill somebody? (CostaRica in this case, rate of 11 per 100,000, or roughly 1 in 10,000) Having lived there for 5 years I did not find it to be a sick country. ymmv

[KitSileya]

17. So many murdered? Yeah, I'd call that sick.

A lot of these countries have contributing factors, though. Most of them, if not all, are what we used to call second and third world countries. What's America's excuse?