Trayvon Martin was hunted down in the streets like wild game.

[NCTraveler]

Those who know the facts about what happened to Trayvon fully understand there isn't and ounce of hyperbole in that statement.

Children, on a regular basis, are being hunted down.

Many in big cities are being hunted down.... or killed as collateral damage.

We can talk all day long about the problems that lead to these shootings. There are many of them we need to address. The common thread is the availability of guns. Legal and illegal. Our extreme illegal gun issue is a direct result of centuries of easy access to guns in a legal manner. I'm over the good gun owner argument. Responsible gun owners have shown over time that they are not responsible enough.

I'm a gun grabber. I want your guns destroyed. The only exception I'm willing to entertain is limited access to extremely specific hunting rifles. Severely regulated. I will win in the end. Society will win in the end. I am confident of that. I also know I'm talking decades. I just want the conversation these days to revolve around limiting the number of guns in society. Those with mental health issues need more access to affordable care. That is not a gun issue. The vast majority of those with mental health issues don't hurt people. Careful tying the two together and legislating from that position.

[ExciteBike66]

1. I agree and disagree...

I know the facts as well as anyone else who was not there. The witnesses put Trayvon on top hitting Zimmerman. I'm not saying they were totally 100% correct about everything, but what else do we have to go on?

That said, I also would like to see all (civilian) guns destroyed.

[NCTraveler]

2. He was stalked.

It was a part of the clear hunt.

[ExciteBike66]

3. That's probably not true

Zimmerman had given up his pursuit as soon as the dispatcher told him to. You can hear his breathing on the phone change when he stops running just after dispatch tells him to stop. Then there is two more minutes of phone conversation with the dispatcher before he hangs up. In those two minutes, Trayvon could easily have gotten away clean.

This leads to the conclusion that Trayvon either decided to hide in the immediate area, or else ran out of the immediate area and then came back.

[WhiteTara]

6. That's not true either.

He did NOT give up the hunt until he killed his prey.

Travon looked like a beautiful young man.

[ExciteBike66]

7. Did you read my post?

Trayvon was out of sight for two whole minutes. Then, after two minutes, somehow Trayvon is right back in that same small area where the fight happened. According to the map below, the fight happened only about 100 feet from Zimmerman's truck. How did Trayvon run for his life for two minutes, and end up only 100 feet away?

Here is the map: https://viewfromll2.com/2012/04/05/minute-by-minute-timeline-of-trayvon-martins-death/

[WhiteTara]

14. Oh, poor misunderstood Zimmerman...boohoo boohoo.

He's a bully and a murderer. Why are you so busy defending him?

[ExciteBike66]

19. Again, did you read what I wrote?

Several other commenters have already taken me to task for supposedly defending Zimmerman, so you can rest easy that that part of the job is being well handled.

I am not defending the guy, I am pointing out that Trayvon ran away and then somehow came back.

[WhiteTara]

20. Me thinks thou doth protest too much. nt.

[ExciteBike66]

21. Ok, I'm just going to assume you refuse to care about what actually happened.

In criminal law, we are supposed to try to get the facts straight. I have attempted to enlighten you as to what I see as possible in this case, and you refuse to accord me the same courtesy.

[WhiteTara]

24. You're presuming to know what was in the mind

of a dead man. Please, stop. Thank you.

[ExciteBike66]

28. Once again, please point to a fact that is wrong.

I am still waiting for you to respond in a normal, helpful manner.

If I am wrong, I would like to be shown how and why.

[Baitball Blogger]

16. You have the facts all wrong.

[ExciteBike66]

18. Explain?

[Cracklin Charlie]

22. I have always believed this.

He was waiting for the child to walk past, because he knew the child would be walking past.

[scarletlib]

4. Trayvon was being stalked by an unidentified white man with a gun.

Police had told Zimmerman to remain in his vehicle. Florida is a stand your ground state. Trayvon had every right to stand his ground, and to try to protect himself from an armed stranger threatening him. Stand your ground is not just for white people.


The kid was murdered for no good reason.

[ExciteBike66]

5. Zimmerman was not told to "stay in his vehicle"

Zimmerman was already out of his truck and running when dispatch told him to stop. Further, he did in fact stop, you can hear his breathing change on the phone call when he stops running.

Then, two minutes pass while Trayvon is running away and Zimmerman is not running and it talking normally to dispatch. In those two minutes, Trayvon was out of sight, and could easily have escaped. Can you explain how Trayvon came back to the scene of the fight after he had gotten away clean?

As for Florida law, I'm not a fan.

[scarletlib]

8. Okay its been several years now.

The point is he was told to back off and did not. Put yourself in Trayvons shoes. The kid had a coke and skittles in his hands. He was minding his own goddamned business and some asshole with a gun is stalking him. should he have jhust stood there and let a total stranger with a gun approach and should he have done nothing?

This is a16 yr boy who was murdered for no good reason. The police did a halfassed investigation to start with would have done nothing had there been no protests.

[ExciteBike66]

10. What about the rest of what I wrote?

Trayvon had gotten clean away, out of sight. How did he come to be back at the area where the fight happened?

[Downtown Hound]

40. Maybe he came back to confront the asshole who was stalking him

Which is something a lot of people would do, and if they're white, usually nothing happens to them.

[ExciteBike66]

41. If that was the case, wouldn't that make Trayvon an aggressor?

Depends on how he did it, I guess.

[Downtown Hound]

44. Not just no, but hell no.

You don't know what happened except that Zimmerman, who was significantly larger than Trayvon and had MMA training, claimed to have been pinned down and pummeled helplessly by a relatively small teenager with no fight experience and that's why he claims he killed him in self defense.

If you were being followed home late at night and you turned around and said, "Why are you following me?" Guess what? NO! You are not the aggressor. By your own admission Zimmerman was actually RUNNING after Trayvon when Trayvon had done nothing wrong except walk home. Running after somebody for no reason other than you don't like the way they look is an aggressive act, and if you turn around to confront them, you are not the aggressor. You are the defender. What happened after that nobody will ever know for sure, except once again, Zimmerman repeating the highly implausible scenario that even though he was a trained fighter and much bigger, he let Trayvon get the better of him to the point where he needed to use lethal force.

And if you know the first thing about MMA, you know that grappling is a huge component of the sport and it should have been very easy for Zimmerman to get out of Trayvon's hold (assuming that is actually what happened, which I doubt) without killing him.

[ExciteBike66]

47. I agree that we don't know exactly what happened.

Rachel Jeantel said Zimmerman asked Trayvon what he was doing there. If that is all Zimmerman did, and if Trayvon then hit Zimmerman, Trayvon might be the aggressor no matter who was chasing whom.

I agree with you totally that all we have is Zimmerman's testimony (and the other, later witnesses).

As to the MMA thing, I doubt Zimmerman was much of a fighter. The guy is a toad, and I would not be surprised if he got his ass beat by a smaller guy.

[Downtown Hound]

50. You don't need to be an MMA expert to be able to overcome the majority of all people

on the street who have no training. I personally think you would have to be an idiot of the worst kind to believe anything Zimmerman says. Either way, Trayvon would be alive if Zimmerman hadn't stalked him. Zimmerman was the aggressor, not Trayvon.

[ExciteBike66]

51. Legally, that is wrong.

Zimmerman is not automatically the aggressor. That said, it is certainly possible.

Fortunately for my posts here, I don't have to believe anything Zimmerman says at all. The phone call and the map of the area are good evidence for how the pursuit unfolded.

[Downtown Hound]

53. So you'd be okay with somebody running after you

when you were taking a walk at night?

[ExciteBike66]

54. That's not what I said.

[Downtown Hound]

58. If your argument rests on the fact that Trayvon was the aggressor because he turned around and

confronted a man who had been chasing after him, then yes, that is what you said.

[ExciteBike66]

61. Nope,

I did not argue Trayvon was the aggressor. I pointed out that we don't know. Many commenters here assume Zimmerman was some black-kid-hunting psychopath, and I do not agree that the facts bear that out.

My point is that if Zimmerman was somehow hunting this kid to kill him, he did a terrible job. He let Trayvon run away out of sight and didn't pursue him for at least two minutes while he was on the phone with dispatch.

[Downtown Hound]

62. You don't know who threw the first punch is what your saying

But there should be no doubt in you mind about who is the real aggressor, and a man who stalks children and chases after them for walking through his neighborhood is it.

[ExciteBike66]

65. Perhaps, but as I already said, I was responding to an OP

that labelled Zimmerman a "hunter". My point is that there isn't enough evidence to just assume he wanted to kill Trayvon from the start.

[Downtown Hound]

68. I don't think he went out there with the intention of killing Trayvon

I think he's a racist loser with an over inflated sense of self importance and went out there to play wannabe lawman and let his emotions get the better of him. Either way, he's responsible for Trayvon's death.

[ExciteBike66]

69. I agree.

And his subsequent actions all confirm that characterization.

[Downtown Hound]

70. Then, a word of advice

Don't waste so much time trying to defend him.

[ExciteBike66]

71. I hate to keep repeating myself

I have had this line thrown at me several times today. I am not defending Zimmerman. I am interested to know the facts.

Claiming that I am somehow "defending" Zimmerman is not an argument or a fact or anything even remotely helpful to me.

However, I am grateful you did it politely. Most folks have just assumed I am some trump-humping interloper...

[uponit7771]

78. +1, or someone who sympathizes with him.

[DLevine]

45. Why are you defending that racist pos Zimmerman?

Trayvon would be alive today if that racist asshole had just minded his own damn business. Trayvon was doing nothing illegal. Zimmerman had no business following him around.

[ExciteBike66]

48. I'm not.

I'm interested in the facts, not Zimmerman.

[uponit7771]

79. you're giving Zman's account the benefit of the doubt when there are no facts

... available pre or post that he should have said benefit of the doubt.

Grown men chasing teenagers through a dark neighborhood with a loaded gun means he loses the benefit of the doubt from start.

[ExciteBike66]

85. What do you mean "Zman's account"?

Where did I quote Zimmerman's account? I know I talked about the phone call and the physical layout, but I don't remember talking about what Zimmerman said to the police.

[LanternWaste]

9. I'd rationalize Zimmerman's action as well if my narrative depended on it.

I'd rationalize Zimmerman's actions as well if my narrative depended on it. I'd also pretend those same rationalizations are anything except what they really are.

[ExciteBike66]

11. Uh oh, nice dig!

Please go listen to the phone call and tell me there isn't two minutes where Zimmerman is talking to dispatch and not chasing Trayvon.

[LanternWaste]

12. Digging is irrelevant. Narratives however, seem not to be.

Digging is irrelevant. Narratives however, seem not to be (try not to conflate accuracy with "digs", it's self-serving nonsense).

I get it... Zimm's a peach.

[ExciteBike66]

17. Geez, you are just killing me with this stuff

Please point out the facts I gave that are wrong. Otherwise, stop being deliberately insulting.

I live in central FL, just south of Sanford. I have seen all of the subsequent coverage of Zimmerman's foibles. I know he is a jackass of the highest order. That said, I am talking about the facts of the Trayvon Martin case, not Zimmerman's "sterling" personality and reputation.

[FSogol]

13. Seriously? Defending Zimmerman?

[ExciteBike66]

15. Whoa whoa

Not defending Zimmerman, he is a toad.

I am defending the facts, as they can be seen if you analyze the case. Have I said anything that is wrong? If so, can you please point it out?

[FSogol]

23. This statement:

"Trayvon had gotten clean away, out of sight. How did he come to be back at the area where the fight happened?"

puts the blame on Martin, not on Zimmerman's actions. Standing your ground is only acceptable for white men with guns?

[WhiteTara]

25. Yes, the poster seems to be implying he

knows what was going on in Trayvon Martin's mind. Of course, that's made easier by the fact that Trayvon is dead. Murdered by Zimmerman.

[ExciteBike66]

27. That is untrue.

I made no presumption of what Trayvon was thinking. We have physical evidence of the area, and the phone call with dispatch to go on. That is what I am talking about.

This is several times now you have twisted what I am saying.

[WhiteTara]

46. Dear ExciteBike66

Let's call this agree to disagree.

Thanks, have a good day. Adios.

[ExciteBike66]

49. I agree!

I would caution you in the future that if you want to have successful dialogue you should not allow knee-jerk reactions to get in the way.

[WhiteTara]

59. You were doing just fine

until your snark.
Good day.

[ExciteBike66]

60. It wasn't snark.

[ExciteBike66]

26. Please correct me where I am wrong?

I never said Trayvon could not stand his ground. We do not really know who started throwing punches first, since the call between Trayvon and Rachel was unclear.

That said, it is a fact that Trayvon got away out of sight, and yet somehow came back to the scene of the fight. I made no further presumption of what did not did not happen next.

All of this was in the context of the OP that stated flatly that Zimmerman hunted Trayvon. My point was that if he did "hunt" Trayvon, he didn't have to go very far.

[FSogol]

29. Spitting hairs. Zimmerman stalked a black kid and then murdered him. End of the story. n/t

[ExciteBike66]

30. Oh if only all criminal trials were so easy, we could be just like the French revolution.

[uponit7771]

80. +1, the stalking in and of itself was the beginning offense

[Docreed2003]

34. Um...you keep saying that but thats not true

You’ve suggested that Zimmerman chasing Trayvon happened before calling dispatch....that’s not the truth at all. Zimmerman called dispatch and was on the call for two minutes yes, but it wasn’t after an altercation....go listen to the damn call again, Zimmerman followed and stalked this kid because, as he said on the line, “these assholes always get away”. But keep on spewing BS if it suits you.

[ExciteBike66]

36. I know what was on the call

I said that there was a two-minute time period AFTER Zimmerman stopped running and BEFORE Zimmerman hangs up with dispatch. That is to say, Zimmerman was on the phone with dispatch PRIOR TO exiting his truck and running (temporarily) after Trayvon.

Probably not a good idea to insult me when you failed to understand what I wrote.

[Docreed2003]

42. Dude...go back and listen to the damn tape like I just did!!

Zimmerman didn’t run after Trayvon until he was out of sight...that’s when the call to dispatch ends. You just said again “there’s a two minute time period after Zimmerman started running and before hanging up with dispatch”...that’s just bullshit!! And yes I’m calling you out for bullshit because it’s not fucking true!!

The altercation with Trayvon happened after Zimmerman pursued him, after dispatch told Zimmerman he didn’t need to do that, after Zimmerman goes “mm hm..these assholes always get away”, and after he hung up with dispatch...suggesting that somehow Zimmerman had been running after Trayvon, called dispatch, and then Trayvon came back is just bullshit man. The tape is very clear!! I just listended to it again! If you want to continue this, I’d be happy to post the actual audio! Zimmerman stalked Trayvon...PERIOD. GTFOH with your excuses for Zimmerman!

[ExciteBike66]

43. What the heck are you talking about?

1.) Zimmerman is on the phone while in the truck.
2.) Trayvon walks by, and then starts running.
3.) Zimmerman gets out and starts running while on the phone. You can hear this.
4.) Dispatch says to stop, and Zimmerman stops. You can hear this.
5.) Zimmerman talks with dispatch for two more minutes, and then hangs up. All that time, Trayvon is out of sight.

You obviously did not understand what I wrote earlier. I never said Zimmerman dialed dispatch while he was running. He called dispatch while in his truck.

My point is that Zimmerman stops running, and then talks to dispatch for two more minutes. Trayvon was out of sight and heading for his father's house. THEN, some time later, somehow Trayvon does not make it to his father's house and instead ends up at the scene of the fight, which is 100-200 feet from Zimmerman's truck. My point is that Trayvon had two minutes where he was out of sight, so how did he end up only 200 feet from Zimmerman's truck?

[Docreed2003]

52. Well thats not what you wrote..I quoted you directly...

And I still am flabbergasted that someone would be so adamant in their defense of Zimmerman. Go back and reread what you wrote originally and you’ll see that it doesn’t match up with what you just wrote.

[ExciteBike66]

56. Here is my quote.

"Please go listen to the phone call and tell me there isn't two minutes where Zimmerman is talking to dispatch and not chasing Trayvon"

I am responding to the prior comment, and I am asking that person to listen to the call and then try to tell me there is no two-minute period where Zimmerman is stopped. To me, it is pretty clear that I am implying that there WAS a two minute period where Zimmerman was on the phone and had stopped chasing Trayvon.

That said, nowhere in that quote do I say Zimmerman dialed up dispatch while running. If you took it that way, then I really don't know what to say.

ANYWAY, now that we are past all that, and I am once again being clear, what is our argument again?

EDIT: Please don't try to tar me with "defending" Zimmerman. He is a toad. I am interested in the facts of the case, nothing more.

[csziggy]

75. From the timing, I think Zimmerman drove to the back entrance

Of the complex, which was near where Trayvon's father's apartment was.

Trayvon could have seen Zimmerman's vehicle at the end of the complex and may not have wanted to lead him back to the apartment where the only person was his younger brother.

I believe Trayvon turned back the way he had come and Zimmerman drove back around the block and cut off Trayvon's path, which caused the final confrontation.

At the time I studied the maps of the complex, measured distances, made a timeline based on the tapes, 911 calls, and the cell phone call Trayvon had with his friend. There was sufficient time for what I suggest above and not a lot of extra time in that timeline.

I agree with the OP that Zimmerman hunted Trayvon. I believe that Trayvon was just trying to avoid this predator that was stalking him and did not succeed.

[ExciteBike66]

83. Another possibility,

but you have to admit there is no evidence for it. However, one possible reason for there being no evidence is that Zimmerman lied about it.

My interest is in what we can know. Anything is possible though.

[haele]

38. Easy. He was visiting. He didn't know the housing complex well.

He had run in a direction he wasn't familiar with to get away from Zimmerman, and spent some time to return to an area of the complex he was familiar with to get back to where his father lived. And Zimmerman was there, either waiting for him, or looking around for more "trouble" to fix.

It's easy to get lost in housing complexes where all the buildings look similar.

Haele

[ExciteBike66]

39. It's possible he got lost, it was raining.

All we know for sure is that Rachel Jeantel testified Trayvon said he was "near" his father's house when he stopped running.

[uponit7771]

77. Grown man chases a 10th grade girl through a dark neighborhood with a gun for

... no reason at all

and

you give the grown man with the gun the benefit of the doubt?

yeah, ok

[ExciteBike66]

84. 10th grade girl?

Are we talking about the same case?

[Oneironaut]

33. I agree to an extent, but also disagree.

I always thought Zimmerman was the aggressor, but when someone is chasing you, you never want to run back to where they are. I don’t believe what happened is really Trayvon’s fault, but I think his teenage brain didn’t calculate the danger of trying to fight an already-deranged person.

I’m not sure if the OP comparison is apt or not. There is an argument both ways. I do believe he was being chased, but he should have just run away.

[Mariana]

67. Run away to where?

You don't want this scary guy chasing you to know where you live, so he can come after you later or threaten your family, so where do you go?

[Oneironaut]

73. Anywhere, really. Trayvon probably thought his life was in danger and tried to fight back.

This is of course all speculation. Trying to fight when there is still room to run is the worst decision you can make when someone is after you. Of course, people panic too, so I guess thinking about it rationally doesn’t always help.

[Iggo]

57. Okay, that's enough.

[Mr.Bill]

63. He was fighting for his life at that point.

Damn shame he didn't win.

[Mariana]

64. Why shouldn't he be hitting Zimmerman?

He tried to get away from Zimmerman, remember. He tried to avoid the conflict. Trayvon was most likely in fear for his life from this man who chased after him and tried to follow him home. Why shouldn't he defend himself? The jury didn't think Stand Your Ground laws apply to young black men, I guess.

[ExciteBike66]

66. Perhaps

I doubt the jury was instructed to consider Trayvon's stand your ground right, considering it wasn't invoked at trial.

[bigbrother05]

72. If Trayvon circled back, it was most likely to protect his brother

Think about it. You've been left to look after your little brother. You go to the store to get some treats and an armed man starts following and harassing you. Would you lead that guy back to the house and your brother or would you double back stop the stalker and make sure your brother would be safe.

That makes more sense to me than thinking he just wanted to mess up Zimmerman.

He likely got out of his immediate way when he (Z) was on the phone, but hung back to be sure he wasn't being followed and acted when he felt the threat return.

FWIW - this makes more sense than the scenario posited above and likely happens in many "the dead guy attacked me" situations

[Hoyt]

74. Zman had big fight with his wife. He left. Saw skinny unarmed black kid. Zman grabbed his gun.

Stalked and intimidated the kid and shot him.

If Zman was unarmed, he would have sat in his car fondling himself. And let's not forget that Zman had been training 3 days a week to beat people up, but carried a gun in case that wasn't working for him. Zman also was quite attentive at his so-called gun "training" course when it came to when you can shoot someone and what to tell the police.

[Oneironaut]

76. Pretty much this. I truly believe he was out to hurt, if not kill someone.

That is, of course, just my own personal opinion.

[justgamma]

82. Trayvon was the only one

standing his ground. He was being stalked and when he stood his ground he was shot. Scenario. He is a girl, someone is following her in a threatening way, she turns and gives him a karate kick, he shoots her. He's innocent. Not in my world.

[ExciteBike66]

86. But that scenario is nothing like what happened.

As I have already pointed out, Trayvon got away, and was out of sight for two minutes.

[HipChick]

31. the FL shooter would be dead by now, if he was black...

Armed with assault rifle and how not a threat to the police?

[Demsrule86]

32. I am a gun grabber too..and believe the Supremes got wrong. There is no right to individual carry.

[samir.g]

37. AMEN

[Demsrule86]

87. Yep...I pray that someday Americans will value children's lives more than the right to own weapons.

[byronius]

35. I agree absolutely.

[redstatebluegirl]

55. My Dad had a rifle he used on the farm to protect our livestock from pedators.

He kept it locked up tightly, we were warned if we touched it he would have us cleaning the barn forever. I only saw him use it once when a a wolf was after one of our Angus calves. After he was done , he shot him again to make sure he wasn't suffering. It devastated him. Nobody needs one, bottom line.

[Baconator]

81. Whoa there... save some hyperbole for the rest of the class...

"Children, on a regular basis, are being hunted down. "