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***BREAKING*** Mueller indicts thirteen Russian nationals for U.S. elections meddling. (Original Post) DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2018 OP
Andrea Mitchell reading from the indictment - The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #1
Does it cite the specific form of the interference? leftstreet Feb 2018 #6
Yes. toddwv Feb 2018 #23
They were even on ground arranging rallies where they suggested using Hillary effegy in a cage etc. wishstar Feb 2018 #37
+1 dalton99a Feb 2018 #9
interesting that it says "unwitting individuals" NewJeffCT Feb 2018 #34
it means facebook and twitter...... getagrip_already Feb 2018 #83
Thats a bit worrisome to me. Seems to let Trump campaign people off the hook, as if they did not suffragette Feb 2018 #87
No ones off the hook yet. paleotn Feb 2018 #111
I hope youre right. I still remember the letdown of Fitzmas. suffragette Feb 2018 #137
This message was self-deleted by its author Nitram Feb 2018 #116
Not to worry relayerbob Feb 2018 #134
"Unwitting" means without their knowledge. Nitram Feb 2018 #113
I bet it made Mrs. Greenspan sad that she had to say the words "Aid Trump, disparage Clinton" Boomerproud Feb 2018 #12
Andrea Mitchell can kiss my arse. Iliyah Feb 2018 #14
She's just reading the indictment, not commenting on it. The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #19
She still disparages Clinton MontanaMama Feb 2018 #31
I wonder if Andrea Mitchell was one of those unwitting individuals? LiberalFighter Feb 2018 #59
Thanks God.....it's going to get her soon.. onecent Feb 2018 #2
Here's the 37 page indictment NightWatcher Feb 2018 #3
I got goosebumps when I saw Mueller's signature on the last page. Bleacher Creature Feb 2018 #7
Now weird at all, Creature!! We need these motherfuckers GONE, and right now Robert Leghorn21 Feb 2018 #11
Amen to that!! Bleacher Creature Feb 2018 #120
The Russians pushed pro Bernie, and pro Jill Stein info against Hillary. NightWatcher Feb 2018 #15
Wow!! Glenn Greenwald is going to have a sad. NT Bleacher Creature Feb 2018 #21
I wish that he's indicted... paleotn Feb 2018 #114
I second that! Stardust1 Feb 2018 #143
That's what the Europeans thought in 2016 DFW Feb 2018 #98
That was pretty clear at the time, TBH relayerbob Feb 2018 #135
Damn, it's an image PDF... can't search the text... berni_mccoy Feb 2018 #51
That's what I said NightWatcher Feb 2018 #55
This is big - thank you for posting oberliner Feb 2018 #4
Boom! mcar Feb 2018 #5
Trump says these are good people, has his doubts, some bad people on the other side Angry Dragon Feb 2018 #8
are any of them in USA?? .. Can the fucking bastards be arrested? Le Gaucher Feb 2018 #10
Probably not; but that's not really the point. The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #17
On MSNBC they mentioned at least one USA contact in Texas spooky3 Feb 2018 #28
there was one plea deal that wasn't addressed in the presser.... getagrip_already Feb 2018 #86
There's also some stuff coming out right now Stryst Feb 2018 #136
Is Putin listed? (nt) NeoGreen Feb 2018 #13
Russians tried to suppress minority turnout dalton99a Feb 2018 #16
I wonder what Jill Stein was doing in Russia with Flynn and Putin? louis c Feb 2018 #24
It was an accidental visit dalton99a Feb 2018 #106
Do each of the 13 weigh 300 pounds? Sneederbunk Feb 2018 #18
Russian bots and trolls Supporting Trump, Sanders and OKNancy Feb 2018 #20
This!!!!!!!!!!!!! sheshe2 Feb 2018 #22
It's MUELLER time njhoneybadger Feb 2018 #25
We have the quid Mr. Ected Feb 2018 #26
I don't know what to say about this news..... wait a minute, I think I do! Afromania Feb 2018 #27
Need to know what their names are. triron Feb 2018 #29
They will sing like birds too. Kingofalldems Feb 2018 #30
Are they still in the US? onenote Feb 2018 #33
You mean Nunes, Gowdy, Chaffetz, Rohrabacher, McCarthy, Iliyah Feb 2018 #38
All of them. Kingofalldems Feb 2018 #40
Connect the dots... Joe941 Feb 2018 #32
SHS must be prepping yuuuuuuge lies MontanaMama Feb 2018 #35
They are already calling the alleged 2nd affair in 2006 fake news. Busy day of denial. Shrike47 Feb 2018 #101
On Msnbc they said that a grassroots group in Texas assisted the Russians and told them which states octoberlib Feb 2018 #36
hmmm... group in TX that told Russians where to target money.... something rings a bell OhioBlue Feb 2018 #142
+1 Little Star Feb 2018 #148
Rod Rosenstein speaking. GO! Hekate Feb 2018 #39
Mueller is amazing. I love him. proudp55 Feb 2018 #41
I pray its not cover for a LACK of indictments against GOP Nevernose Feb 2018 #42
Think of it as a starting point in the race to save our democracy Maggiemayhem Feb 2018 #69
Just wait. Sophia4 Feb 2018 #85
As I read through the indictments Nevernose Feb 2018 #140
Benjamin Wittes - BOOM! BumRushDaShow Feb 2018 #43
What law did they break? Cartoonist Feb 2018 #44
There's several posts in this thread that specify what the indictments are for Kaleva Feb 2018 #45
Good one-sentence summary... KY_EnviroGuy Feb 2018 #72
conspiracy to defraud the US.... getagrip_already Feb 2018 #90
I can hear them now... Stardust1 Feb 2018 #144
So this kind of makes me nervous Takket Feb 2018 #46
Makes me nervous too... StarryNite Feb 2018 #103
Questions: Stardust1 Feb 2018 #146
Something was started in Russia, that organized this in 2013 mchill Feb 2018 #47
Wasnt this about the same time Bill ORielly and Fox started all the Putin fawning? Maggiemayhem Feb 2018 #73
and Giuliani. (n/t) klook Feb 2018 #125
Hmmm, so where are Jill Stein, Glenn Grenwald, and Matt Tabbi telling us there is no evidence of still_one Feb 2018 #48
They all fled to Moscow an hour after the breaking news. sheshe2 Feb 2018 #133
........................................................................................ still_one Feb 2018 #138
Oooooo boy. I had a feeling this morning, something was going to happen. C Moon Feb 2018 #49
Love a good Friday series of bombshells. Cracklin Charlie Feb 2018 #56
+1 C Moon Feb 2018 #107
What hair? Stardust1 Feb 2018 #147
:D C Moon Feb 2018 #150
This also protects Mueller and Rosenstein HootieMcBoob Feb 2018 #50
Yup. Genius move. C_U_L8R Feb 2018 #67
Very good points to which I might add GusBob Feb 2018 #75
I missed that. lark Feb 2018 #91
The FBI just made it a whole lot more difficult for Trump to ignore the current election cycle BoneyardDem Feb 2018 #118
Thank you for saying better than I GusBob Feb 2018 #119
It implicates Fox News Also HootieMcBoob Feb 2018 #124
+1 Kaleva Feb 2018 #93
it also puts a bright light on congress and the wh/treasury department over sanctions..... getagrip_already Feb 2018 #95
you are correct. paleotn Feb 2018 #117
Do these Russians live in the US? WhiteTara Feb 2018 #52
the indictement listed them being in st petersburgh... getagrip_already Feb 2018 #94
Well this isn't promising cungar2000 Feb 2018 #53
This is just one facet of the investigation and it protects Mueller GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #60
Interestingly, the AAG wording 4nic8em Feb 2018 #61
A couple thoughts Cosmocat Feb 2018 #70
They "witting" individuals on Team Trump NewJeffCT Feb 2018 #102
May have been unwitting at some point, but things evolved. Why else would everyone lie about wiggs Feb 2018 #121
Unwitting..... Turbineguy Feb 2018 #54
It also helps them cungar2000 Feb 2018 #58
What's more Turbineguy Feb 2018 #65
TRUMP IS ILLEGITIMATE..... LovingA2andMI Feb 2018 #57
I sure hope this is brought up. You can bet the GOP would R B Garr Feb 2018 #66
Yes! Glimmer of Hope Feb 2018 #92
I betcha one of these Russians hacked DU! Catherine Vincent Feb 2018 #62
me too. Hope the admins are checking it out. spooky3 Feb 2018 #79
MSNBC analysis: Next step is who in America helped them R B Garr Feb 2018 #63
Jill Wine Banks. I really like her commentary. spooky3 Feb 2018 #76
Yes, that's it. Her name is not that hard to remember, either, lol. R B Garr Feb 2018 #82
Jill Wine Banks? MontanaMama Feb 2018 #77
Yes, she is awesome. As soon as I see her name, it seems R B Garr Feb 2018 #80
You're not alone! My memory for names is not what it used to be! spooky3 Feb 2018 #84
Can you imagine MontanaMama Feb 2018 #89
Yes! I have had those same thoughts about her! And she would have R B Garr Feb 2018 #97
I love the sound... C_U_L8R Feb 2018 #64
HOLY CHYT!!! Lazy Daisy Feb 2018 #68
Million dollar question: will this prevent meddling in 2018 and 2020 GusBob Feb 2018 #71
This was really needed right now, of all times. I love the Friday drop. OnDoutside Feb 2018 #74
Ari Melber on now explaining things for us non-lawyers. Thinks that there are spooky3 Feb 2018 #78
Mueller has been a busy boy. shraby Feb 2018 #81
Getting closer. gademocrat7 Feb 2018 #88
Instead of whatever emotion you might be inclined to, you might want to think about it first nolabels Feb 2018 #96
Latest tweet from Trump to Putin: Sam McGee Feb 2018 #99
more from the indictment Exotica Feb 2018 #100
sounds like they were really scared of Clinton NewJeffCT Feb 2018 #108
Here's the link to the indictments Liberty Belle Feb 2018 #104
Trump is Putins Puppet HootieMcBoob Feb 2018 #105
With this, they'll be able to connect GOP to those people and groups bigbrother05 Feb 2018 #109
CAN they get the death penalty ???? trueblue2007 Feb 2018 #110
They weren't charged with a capitol crime or treason..... getagrip_already Feb 2018 #139
Brilliant move to start with indictment of Russians. Now tRump can't stop the investigation. flibbitygiblets Feb 2018 #112
I like your thought process here. klook Feb 2018 #126
Yes! I was about to write something similar. LiberalLovinLug Feb 2018 #130
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2018 #115
I saw so many FB posts from progressive friends that were outrageous and easily debunked ehrnst Feb 2018 #122
Great News!! blue-wave Feb 2018 #123
Just had a thought... llmart Feb 2018 #127
K&R orangecrush Feb 2018 #128
Unbelievably president dotard is spinning the indictments Enoki33 Feb 2018 #129
Like his initial tweet: "It's been going on since before I got into the race". flibbitygiblets Feb 2018 #131
Again its about blaming Obama, then pivoting to make Enoki33 Feb 2018 #132
The indictments now allow him to question more Americans who can then be indicted. McCamy Taylor Feb 2018 #141
The most surprising thing to me was that Russia DeminPennswoods Feb 2018 #145
These Russians that were indicted: will never be prosecuted for their crimes. YOHABLO Feb 2018 #149

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,681 posts)
1. Andrea Mitchell reading from the indictment -
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:00 PM
Feb 2018

it specifically says the Russians interfered with the election to aid the Trump campaign and disparage Clinton.

leftstreet

(36,106 posts)
6. Does it cite the specific form of the interference?
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:03 PM
Feb 2018

Seems that's the most important takeaway from all this

For months and months we've heard the terms 'interfered,' 'meddled' etc. Maybe now we can address EXACTLY what needs to be fixed to prevent this in the future

wishstar

(5,269 posts)
37. They were even on ground arranging rallies where they suggested using Hillary effegy in a cage etc.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:32 PM
Feb 2018

Not just Facebook and Twitter, but they got Americans to participate in anti-Hillary rally events

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
34. interesting that it says "unwitting individuals"
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:30 PM
Feb 2018

associated with the Trump campaign...does that mean they're witless? Or half-wits?

getagrip_already

(14,741 posts)
83. it means facebook and twitter......
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:13 PM
Feb 2018

He didn't indict any americans intentionally. The statements only apply to the indictments, not the investigation.

Expect more indictments. There was also one plea deal, so someone has flipped.

suffragette

(12,232 posts)
87. Thats a bit worrisome to me. Seems to let Trump campaign people off the hook, as if they did not
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:16 PM
Feb 2018

realize they were colluding with Russians.

Hope that’s not an out they are being given.

paleotn

(17,912 posts)
111. No ones off the hook yet.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:08 PM
Feb 2018

but 13 Russian nationals and 3 Russian entities are definitely ON the hook....along with Flynn, Gates, Mannafort and Papadopoulos. The investigation is no where near done.

Response to suffragette (Reply #87)

relayerbob

(6,544 posts)
134. Not to worry
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:29 PM
Feb 2018

Quite the opposite. This is designed to corner the rats trying to escape the sinking ship

Boomerproud

(7,952 posts)
12. I bet it made Mrs. Greenspan sad that she had to say the words "Aid Trump, disparage Clinton"
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:08 PM
Feb 2018

since she does the very same thing every day-in public.

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
14. Andrea Mitchell can kiss my arse.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:10 PM
Feb 2018

She definitely spewed total bullshit on Clinton.

She's one of the "shitholes"

Leghorn21

(13,524 posts)
11. Now weird at all, Creature!! We need these motherfuckers GONE, and right now Robert
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:08 PM
Feb 2018

Swan Mueller III is the man with a plan!!


NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
15. The Russians pushed pro Bernie, and pro Jill Stein info against Hillary.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:11 PM
Feb 2018

Read this now. And brace for the rest of today.

paleotn

(17,912 posts)
114. I wish that he's indicted...
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:11 PM
Feb 2018

as future hammers fall. Along with the "closet" rapist, currently holed up in an Ecuadorian embassy closet in London.

Stardust1

(123 posts)
143. I second that!
Sat Feb 17, 2018, 08:52 AM
Feb 2018

Assange uses trolls to manipulate people while pretending to be all about truth. I despise that hypocritical, anti-semitic, anti-feminist, egotist. (If those those leaked Twitter messages of his private conversations are real.)

DFW

(54,369 posts)
98. That's what the Europeans thought in 2016
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:37 PM
Feb 2018

Although they only thought that about Sanders. They had no idea who Jill Stein was.

relayerbob

(6,544 posts)
135. That was pretty clear at the time, TBH
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:31 PM
Feb 2018

A lot of stuff coming from the fringes and the Stein group were associated with RT and other Russian groups. They were even more gullible (if fewer in number) than the Trumpites

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,681 posts)
17. Probably not; but that's not really the point.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:11 PM
Feb 2018

The real point was to establish that the Russian interference with the election was real and criminal and intended to benefit Trump.

spooky3

(34,442 posts)
28. On MSNBC they mentioned at least one USA contact in Texas
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:26 PM
Feb 2018

who was allegedly involved in an interest group. The contact allegedly urged the machine to focus on purple states.

getagrip_already

(14,741 posts)
86. there was one plea deal that wasn't addressed in the presser....
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:16 PM
Feb 2018

An individual pleaded guilty to a single count of identity theft. That means he/she is cutting a deal.

More to come.

Stryst

(714 posts)
136. There's also some stuff coming out right now
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:32 PM
Feb 2018

about stolen identities used to bypass the security restrictions on online payment services. I wonder how that links up with the Equifax hack?

 

louis c

(8,652 posts)
24. I wonder what Jill Stein was doing in Russia with Flynn and Putin?
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:23 PM
Feb 2018

Ya, I wonder.

Don't be surprised if she doesn't get indicted in this whole thing. Just don't be surprised.

dalton99a

(81,468 posts)
106. It was an accidental visit
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:59 PM
Feb 2018

She was an accidental tourist, and the seating was also accidental - entirely accidental


Mr. Ected

(9,670 posts)
26. We have the quid
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:25 PM
Feb 2018

And soon we'll have the quo.

...kind of hard for Trump to say that Russia didn't meddle in our elections after these indictments. This is HUGE.

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
36. On Msnbc they said that a grassroots group in Texas assisted the Russians and told them which states
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:32 PM
Feb 2018

to target. You know the GOP and Trump helped them out. This is gonna get interesting.

OhioBlue

(5,126 posts)
142. hmmm... group in TX that told Russians where to target money.... something rings a bell
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:55 PM
Feb 2018
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbertoni/2016/11/22/exclusive-interview-how-jared-kushner-won-trump-the-white-house/#eddaa243af68


By June the GOP nomination secured, Kushner took over all data-driven efforts. Within three weeks, in a nondescript building outside San Antonio, he had built what would become a 100-person data hub designed to unify fundraising, messaging and targeting. Run by Brad Parscale, who had previously built small websites for the Trump Organization, this secret back office would drive every strategic decision during the final months of the campaign. "Our best people were mostly the ones who volunteered for me pro bono," Kushner says. "People from the business world, people from nontraditional backgrounds."

Kushner structured the operation with a focus on maximizing the return for every dollar spent. "We played Moneyball, asking ourselves which states will get the best ROI for the electoral vote," Kushner says. "I asked, How can we get Trump's message to that consumer for the least amount of cost?" FEC filings through mid-October indicate the Trump campaign spent roughly half as much as the Clinton campaign did.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
42. I pray its not cover for a LACK of indictments against GOP
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:35 PM
Feb 2018

Which I still think is a possibility. The Very Important People and the Very Important Thinkers who all know what’s best for us still might let all the Trump bullshit slide “to preserve faith in our democratic institutions” or some such bullshit.

If you couldn’t tell: I’m just kind of cynical. Optimistic, but deeply cynical.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
85. Just wait.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:14 PM
Feb 2018

Even if they don't indict Republicans who won their offices in part thanks to this interference, many if not most Americans will put 2 plus 2 together.

Republicans have a big, big, big, big problem.

In the future, candidates for office will have to be wary of interference in election campaigns like this.

This is just the first step. Wait and see.

Nevernose

(13,081 posts)
140. As I read through the indictments
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 10:02 PM
Feb 2018

I came up with one good thing: my friends on the Left can’t say “Russia is just a distraction! Where’s the proof that Russia meddled? There’s no proof!”

I see it among a certain crowd of Leftists all the time, especially on Twitter. I still read Glen Greenwald and appreciate his reporting. That “certain crowd” I just mentioned, though, read Greenwald completely uncritically and seemingly unaware of bias on the part of anyone they like.

Cartoonist

(7,316 posts)
44. What law did they break?
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:36 PM
Feb 2018

Over in freeperton they are celebrating. "The Russians supported Trump and disparaged Hillary. That's a crime? Is Mueller going to indict all republicans?"

They see this as Mueller's last gasp and that the investigation is over.

Of course they're idiots, but what exactly is the crime?

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,490 posts)
72. Good one-sentence summary...
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:06 PM
Feb 2018

I found on Chris Hayes' Twitter:
(snip)
"They’re charged with essentially malicious electioneering funded by bank fraud and identity theft."

From the BBC:
(snip)
"Three of those named have been accused of conspiracy to commit wire fraud and five have been accused of aggravated identity theft. Three Russian companies are also named in the indictment."

See: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43092085

----------
I love the way the indictment goes into details of the methods they used. This should embarrass a lot of right-wingers that participated in these shenanigans (but probably not).


Stardust1

(123 posts)
144. I can hear them now...
Sat Feb 17, 2018, 09:09 AM
Feb 2018

I bet they're going to say things like: "Lol all this says is a few idiots were dumb enough to listen to some trolls. So what? They're just words, you can't arrest people for words. FIRST AMMENDMENT!"

Too bad for them the law won't see it that way. People are starting to get sick of lies and manipulation.

Takket

(21,563 posts)
46. So this kind of makes me nervous
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:40 PM
Feb 2018

Please tell me we aren't going down the road of "it was all Russia and drumpf had no idea what was going on". We need him gone but don't see him being tied to Russia yet

Stardust1

(123 posts)
146. Questions:
Sat Feb 17, 2018, 09:17 AM
Feb 2018

If the election was messed with does it invalidate it in the eyes of the law? What does that mean for Trumps presidency? Can anyone here clue me in?

mchill

(1,018 posts)
47. Something was started in Russia, that organized this in 2013
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:41 PM
Feb 2018

The year Trump visited Russia for the Miss Universe pageant.

still_one

(92,185 posts)
48. Hmmm, so where are Jill Stein, Glenn Grenwald, and Matt Tabbi telling us there is no evidence of
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:42 PM
Feb 2018

Russian involvement in the election?



C Moon

(12,212 posts)
49. Oooooo boy. I had a feeling this morning, something was going to happen.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:43 PM
Feb 2018

Trump is probably pulling his gross hair out.

HootieMcBoob

(3,823 posts)
50. This also protects Mueller and Rosenstein
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:44 PM
Feb 2018

It will now be very difficult for a Trump and The GOP to denigrate or otherwise move to end or meddle in the investigation. And, any meddling in the investigation is evidence of Republican collusion in support of the Russians which as far as I’m concerned amounts to treason.

lark

(23,097 posts)
91. I missed that.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:21 PM
Feb 2018

What did they do? Protecting the next election is paramount, so really interested in anything that helps.

 

BoneyardDem

(1,202 posts)
118. The FBI just made it a whole lot more difficult for Trump to ignore the current election cycle
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:18 PM
Feb 2018

....doing nothing to protect our Democracy can no longer be ignored.

HootieMcBoob

(3,823 posts)
124. It implicates Fox News Also
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:56 PM
Feb 2018

Fox News and every Right wing talking head have all been doing the bidding of Putin. Trump, Pence, Nunes, Ryan, McConnell, Grassley, Graham. All of them are guilty of treasonous behavior by enabling this.

getagrip_already

(14,741 posts)
95. it also puts a bright light on congress and the wh/treasury department over sanctions.....
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:25 PM
Feb 2018

Watch them dance. I don't expect them to actually do anything, but they will be very scarce for a while.

WhiteTara

(29,704 posts)
52. Do these Russians live in the US?
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:45 PM
Feb 2018

How will we get our hands on them if they are out of country? Interpol? I want to see the perp walk.

getagrip_already

(14,741 posts)
94. the indictement listed them being in st petersburgh...
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:23 PM
Feb 2018

We will have to find someone left at the state department to request extradition.

It will take a while to find them though; soo many empty cubicles to search through.

 

cungar2000

(98 posts)
53. Well this isn't promising
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:46 PM
Feb 2018

The indictment also said that those charged staged political rallies inside the United States, posing as Americans and U.S. grassroots group. Some of them communicated with "unwitting individuals associated with the Trump Campaign and with other political activists to seek to coordinate political activities."


"unwitting" makes it sound like he's backing off Trump's campaign staff.

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
60. This is just one facet of the investigation and it protects Mueller
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:52 PM
Feb 2018

Fire him now and you are not just shutting down the investigation but prosecution. Two very different things.

I think Mueller is about to get very close to Trump with Gates plea deal which will soon be released. This gives him cover.

4nic8em

(482 posts)
61. Interestingly, the AAG wording
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:53 PM
Feb 2018

was specifically "THIS indictment", affording the possibility that other indictments may/will be forthcoming...

Cosmocat

(14,564 posts)
70. A couple thoughts
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:03 PM
Feb 2018

First, ignorance is not necessarily a defense under the law.

Second, this is a pretty decisive statement proving that 1) Russia did act purposefully to influence the election AND 2) DO SO IN FAVOR OF 45.

In the context of indictments of the Flynn et all, this adds, in a fairly big way, another element, specific to the election.

NOW, it isn't there, and we have to wait and see, but if you do 1 plus 1 with all the indictments to see where it is going ...

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
102. They "witting" individuals on Team Trump
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:55 PM
Feb 2018

may have directed the Russian operatives to contact certain people within the Trump campaign knowing that these persons had no knowledge they were Russians, and thus had deniability when it came to knowing who they were and where they were from.

I highly doubt it is a coincidence that these 13 indictments came within 24 hours of Gates agreeing to a plea deal with Mueller. Gates likely hooked up Mueller with the people on Team Trump that did know the IRA was Russian and supporting Trump.

wiggs

(7,812 posts)
121. May have been unwitting at some point, but things evolved. Why else would everyone lie about
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:23 PM
Feb 2018

contacts with Russians?

So they've identified WHO AND HOW the russians helped Trump....Next up...WHY

R B Garr

(16,950 posts)
66. I sure hope this is brought up. You can bet the GOP would
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:56 PM
Feb 2018

be rioting over this if the shoe was on the other foot.

spooky3

(34,442 posts)
79. me too. Hope the admins are checking it out.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:09 PM
Feb 2018

But unfortunately, if the perps are not in the US, there isn't much the prosecutors can do.

R B Garr

(16,950 posts)
63. MSNBC analysis: Next step is who in America helped them
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:54 PM
Feb 2018

I forget her name, but she helped prosecute Watergate.

R B Garr

(16,950 posts)
80. Yes, she is awesome. As soon as I see her name, it seems
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:09 PM
Feb 2018

hard to forget, but then I forget again, lol.

MontanaMama

(23,313 posts)
89. Can you imagine
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:17 PM
Feb 2018

what it must have been like for her to be a woman prosecutor in Watergate way back then? I often think of her and wonder about her experiences through that process. She must have some amazing stories!!

R B Garr

(16,950 posts)
97. Yes! I have had those same thoughts about her! And she would have
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:33 PM
Feb 2018

been very young then, too, and held her own among those legal stalwarts. I would love to hear her stories.

C_U_L8R

(45,000 posts)
64. I love the sound...
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 02:55 PM
Feb 2018

of Russians singing to the Grand Jury.

Trump is caught in middle and the big squeeze is coming next.

Even more genius, there is no reasonable
way that Trump can fire Mueller now.

GusBob

(7,286 posts)
71. Million dollar question: will this prevent meddling in 2018 and 2020
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:05 PM
Feb 2018

If so Mueller has done a great service to our nation and far more than congress or Trump has done

nolabels

(13,133 posts)
96. Instead of whatever emotion you might be inclined to, you might want to think about it first
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:32 PM
Feb 2018

I have noticed with people breaking the law and the government enforcing the law on non-violent crimes it seems to be a ratio of 10 to 1 all the way to a 10,000 to 1 on the enforcement of the law. So is there any idea of how many foreign agents screwing around in the US anyway?

 

Sam McGee

(347 posts)
99. Latest tweet from Trump to Putin:
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:50 PM
Feb 2018

VLADIMIR: THE SHIT HAS HIT THE FAN!!! SEND LAWYERS, GUNS, MONEY, AND BLOW!!!!

bigbrother05

(5,995 posts)
109. With this, they'll be able to connect GOP to those people and groups
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:05 PM
Feb 2018

With indicted Russians, they will build the web of connections between US politicians and Russian operatives.

Maybe the NRA and GOP Super PACs will be the next links.

getagrip_already

(14,741 posts)
139. They weren't charged with a capitol crime or treason.....
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:47 PM
Feb 2018

So no. Treason can only be charged against a us citizen.

But now, a legal statement of war exists; cyber war, but still, the use of war is a standard not seen before.

So maybe when all the indictments are in, it will be a possibility.

flibbitygiblets

(7,220 posts)
112. Brilliant move to start with indictment of Russians. Now tRump can't stop the investigation.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:08 PM
Feb 2018

Mueller is shrewd to indict the Russians at this point. All the "Russia Hoax/Witch Hunt" crap is now proven to be false (to anyone with two synapses left to rub together). Trump and his Fox allies won't be able to discredit the FBI & intelligence any more or he'll really look desperate.

And let's not gloss over that there's now a clear path to save our democratic election process.

Fear not, resisters! This is NOT the end of the investigation--more shoes are going to drop. We still have Manafort, Flynn, Gates, Pappadapolous in the hot seat (and in the process of being flipped and/or prosecuted), the whole "security clearance-gate" scandal...don't forget tRump's fricking Lester Holt confession about firing Comey, and orchestrating the cover story for the June meetings with Russians in Trump Tower, Flynn's assurances to the Russians that sanctions wouldn't be enforced (and they haven't been), the money-laundering, at least a few of tRump's dumb-ass kids are probably going to get indicated eventually...

And for President Pussygrabber himself? At the end of this national nightmare, there's going to be, at the very least, "unindicted co-conspirator" status for that asshole. All but the most rabid tRump fan will realize he's grossly incompetent, (and that's the charitable interpretation). His chances of re-election are circling the drain, and that's not going to change.

klook

(12,154 posts)
126. I like your thought process here.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:03 PM
Feb 2018

As much as we all want Drumpf to go down asap, really the best scenario is for him to hang like a rotting albatross around the neck of every Republican through Nov. 2018, as the catalogue of criminal cases against the GOP-Kremlin cabal continues to build.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,173 posts)
130. Yes! I was about to write something similar.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:29 PM
Feb 2018

If Mueller had started with either Trump or even any of his co-conspirators, the Republicans could use that, along with Hannity, Rush, etc...to bolster their pity party for the Groper in Chief.

This forces them to take a stand. Either side with these Russians being charged, or side with the intelligence services, and American law. There is no poor witch-hunted Republican to cry about. (yet) And hopefully, enough will come from this first step to open the door to a few more Republicans mentally prepared, or politically prepared, to finally turn their backs on their orange fuckwit of a President, once charges of some of their peers come to fruition.

Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)

 

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)
122. I saw so many FB posts from progressive friends that were outrageous and easily debunked
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:25 PM
Feb 2018

but confirmed their confirmation bias against Hillary.

Fact checking the claims, and pointing out the nefarious sources led to accusations of "How can you SUPPORT THIS????" and "Go collect your paycheck from Correct the Record, Hilbot!!!" responses.

I don't expect apologies, of course.

llmart

(15,536 posts)
127. Just had a thought...
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:06 PM
Feb 2018

Will our mainstream media outlets have 24/7 new coverage of this "Crisis in America" like they did when they were persecuting Bill Clinton for a consensual sexual relationship with another adult? I will never forget how every TV broadcast led with some version of the "Constitutional Crisis" or daily newspapers giving every salacious detail on a daily basis for weeks on end.

Are they going to call this a "Crisis" and put it out there front and center day after day and explain it in terms that the average American can understand?

I highly doubt it.

Enoki33

(1,587 posts)
129. Unbelievably president dotard is spinning the indictments
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:25 PM
Feb 2018

as vindication. The consensus seems to be he is, and has been, behaving like a defendant and not as president.

flibbitygiblets

(7,220 posts)
131. Like his initial tweet: "It's been going on since before I got into the race".
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:43 PM
Feb 2018

Where's the outrage, where's the condemnation that our country was attacked (his actual job, ironically)? Nope, just self-protection, shifting, blaming, and (interestingly, finally) seeming acknowledgment that this electing hacking actually happened.

Because if our incompetent pussygrabbing president had his way, these indictments against Russians would NOT be happening. He'd still be pushing the "Fake Gnus" denials. During the debates his explanation was "It could be a 400# kid in NJ", but crickets since then on the subject. Since he was installed, the only things worth spending time and money on are deporting brown-skinned people, taking healthcare from poor people, and giving money to rich white people, including himself.

Enoki33

(1,587 posts)
132. Again its about blaming Obama, then pivoting to make
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:50 PM
Feb 2018

it about himself. The irony is that pivot shows him to be the beneficiary of a extraordinarily well orchestrated attack on our country. An attack that is ongoing and threatens the fabric of our democracy. His reaction disqualifies him for the position he temporarily holds.

McCamy Taylor

(19,240 posts)
141. The indictments now allow him to question more Americans who can then be indicted.
Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:10 PM
Feb 2018

Not a lawyer, but this is how I see this:


Those so called "unwitting" dupes can be questioned. Their activities can be scrutinized. Courts can issue subpoenas since the information will be needed for cases against the 13 indicted Russian nationals.

The Americans will be questioned under oath without any need for "probable cause" because they will be witnesses in a case. While looking into the Russian's crimes, Mueller will almost certainly uncover crimes committed by the American contacts. Willing to bet that he and his team already have a good idea of which of the "unwitting" dupes are guilty of what and know exactly where to look and these indictments (which will not be heavily challenged, why would they be if these guys are all in Russia?) can lead to lots of new evidence gathering activity. And since they are not being charged (yet) with any crimes, Mueller can question them without letting them know what they are suspected of doing. So they ought to be really scared. Better lawyer up.

So basically, Mueller never expects jail time for the 13 Russians under indictment but their investigations will allow him to pursue Americans. And I don't think that Trump will be able to pardon any of the Russians. It would not look good. The most he can do is not ask for extradition (which he won't). Bt that won't stop the investigations.

DeminPennswoods

(15,285 posts)
145. The most surprising thing to me was that Russia
Sat Feb 17, 2018, 09:14 AM
Feb 2018

picked Trump from the get-go. I knew Putin hated Clinton because he thought she helped foment opposition to him and wasn't surprised to have it validated that Putin did try to damage her election chances. It didn't really surprise me that Putin tried to help Trump after he became the GOP nominee.
But I was surprised that the Russians actively worked to help Trump during the primary.

I recall that RNC computers were hacked, too. Although none of whatever the Russians got became public, I wonder if that info helped direct Russia toward Trump as the person most likely to wreck havoc on America or gave them ideas on how to attack Cruz and Rubio. The Russian plan was pretty audacious and maybe when they realized they caught lightning in a bottle with Trump, they geared up and went all in.

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