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Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:09 PM

Why is hunting so sacred?

I keep seeing folks say "you don't need an ar-15" to hunt etc.

So what? Who gives a shit about hunting? We have groceries stores on every corner. NO ONE, literally no one relies on hunting to live now.

So lets skip that, and ban them *ALL*. Hunting files, 6 shooters, machine guns, everything. I'll even compromise and for every gun that is turned in, get a coupon for a free crossbow, for the idiots who insist they must hunt.

Allowing people to have weapons & arms such as bows, knives, crossbows...that honors the second amendment, so there is no confusion there.

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Arrow 191 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why is hunting so sacred? (Original post)
fescuerescue Feb 2018 OP
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #1
ProfessorGAC Feb 2018 #2
FarCenter Feb 2018 #76
ProfessorGAC Feb 2018 #106
nocalflea Feb 2018 #131
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #6
WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2018 #8
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #67
Blue_true Feb 2018 #85
nocalflea Feb 2018 #139
forgotmylogin Feb 2018 #144
GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #154
forgotmylogin Feb 2018 #171
askyagerz Feb 2018 #3
GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #75
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #87
askyagerz Feb 2018 #94
BreweryYardRat Feb 2018 #145
WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2018 #4
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #11
WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2018 #13
Blue_true Feb 2018 #89
DashOneBravo Feb 2018 #166
Drahthaardogs Feb 2018 #5
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #7
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #10
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #24
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #37
Blue_true Feb 2018 #92
WestMichRad Feb 2018 #114
EX500rider Feb 2018 #150
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #183
Thyla Feb 2018 #22
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #26
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #29
GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #44
Drahthaardogs Feb 2018 #149
treestar Feb 2018 #176
Drahthaardogs Feb 2018 #180
treestar Feb 2018 #181
samir.g Feb 2018 #9
WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2018 #14
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #15
MisterProton Feb 2018 #25
Binkie The Clown Feb 2018 #43
GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #48
Binkie The Clown Feb 2018 #54
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #55
GulfCoast66 Feb 2018 #60
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #71
Marengo Feb 2018 #66
djg21 Feb 2018 #148
Marengo Feb 2018 #168
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #68
Binkie The Clown Feb 2018 #116
TwistOneUp Feb 2018 #57
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #16
LastLiberal in PalmSprings Feb 2018 #86
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #88
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #126
whathehell Feb 2018 #129
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #12
Ptah Feb 2018 #17
Blue_true Feb 2018 #97
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #101
Binkie The Clown Feb 2018 #117
Codeine Feb 2018 #120
handmade34 Feb 2018 #18
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #20
handmade34 Feb 2018 #69
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #72
Gidney N Cloyd Feb 2018 #91
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #27
Squinch Feb 2018 #65
handmade34 Feb 2018 #73
Squinch Feb 2018 #82
handmade34 Feb 2018 #90
EL34x4 Feb 2018 #19
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #21
EL34x4 Feb 2018 #35
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #38
RockaFowler Feb 2018 #58
Marengo Feb 2018 #78
WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2018 #79
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #84
EX500rider Feb 2018 #156
treestar Feb 2018 #177
Atticus Feb 2018 #23
Capperdan Feb 2018 #31
Atticus Feb 2018 #45
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #40
logosoco Feb 2018 #28
meadowlander Feb 2018 #30
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #34
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #39
meadowlander Feb 2018 #41
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #46
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #52
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #59
meadowlander Feb 2018 #80
oneshooter Feb 2018 #147
Atticus Feb 2018 #51
treestar Feb 2018 #178
underpants Feb 2018 #32
Adrahil Feb 2018 #50
underpants Feb 2018 #109
Blue_true Feb 2018 #33
Retrotech Feb 2018 #36
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #42
Atticus Feb 2018 #56
Retrotech Feb 2018 #62
Atticus Feb 2018 #74
WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2018 #77
moriah Feb 2018 #98
Comatose Sphagetti Feb 2018 #115
Codeine Feb 2018 #121
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #133
Adrahil Feb 2018 #47
Meowmee Feb 2018 #49
oberliner Feb 2018 #53
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #63
oberliner Feb 2018 #70
TygrBright Feb 2018 #61
applegrove Feb 2018 #64
byronius Feb 2018 #81
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #83
byronius Feb 2018 #105
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #107
byronius Feb 2018 #108
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #111
Gidney N Cloyd Feb 2018 #93
dembotoz Feb 2018 #95
StarryNite Feb 2018 #96
Alwaysna Feb 2018 #99
Pobeka Feb 2018 #100
WestIndianArchie Feb 2018 #102
Turbineguy Feb 2018 #103
Runningdawg Feb 2018 #104
roamer65 Feb 2018 #187
moriah Feb 2018 #110
USALiberal Feb 2018 #112
WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2018 #118
USALiberal Feb 2018 #119
Skittles Feb 2018 #172
leftyladyfrommo Feb 2018 #113
Name removed Feb 2018 #122
rzemanfl Feb 2018 #125
Eliot Rosewater Feb 2018 #128
Name removed Feb 2018 #130
Codeine Feb 2018 #123
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #134
MicaelS Feb 2018 #140
Skittles Feb 2018 #155
MicaelS Feb 2018 #124
Hoyt Feb 2018 #127
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #135
Hoyt Feb 2018 #137
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #141
Hoyt Feb 2018 #153
fescuerescue Feb 2018 #146
Hoyt Feb 2018 #159
EX500rider Feb 2018 #160
Hoyt Feb 2018 #161
EX500rider Feb 2018 #162
bpj62 Feb 2018 #132
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #136
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #138
Kaleva Feb 2018 #142
The Velveteen Ocelot Feb 2018 #143
DashOneBravo Feb 2018 #151
Hoyt Feb 2018 #158
DashOneBravo Feb 2018 #164
Hoyt Feb 2018 #167
Skittles Feb 2018 #152
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #165
Skittles Feb 2018 #170
MontanaMama Feb 2018 #174
Skittles Feb 2018 #184
moriah Feb 2018 #173
WhiskeyGrinder Feb 2018 #179
Skittles Feb 2018 #185
moriah Feb 2018 #188
Skittles Feb 2018 #189
moriah Feb 2018 #190
cvoogt Feb 2018 #157
Hoyt Feb 2018 #169
cvoogt Feb 2018 #191
Willie Pep Feb 2018 #163
treestar Feb 2018 #175
beachbum bob Feb 2018 #182
roamer65 Feb 2018 #186

Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:12 PM

1. I'm not a fan of hunting, but it's not accurate to say

that nobody has to rely on hunting in order to eat. A lot of low-income people in rural areas do hunt in order to supply food for their families. Hunters also do a lot for conservation in many states. However, it is absolutely true that you don't need an assault rifle to bag pheasants for dinner.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:15 PM

2. Pheasant

You'd have to be quite the shot to hunt pheasant with hard ammunition, too. That's why the pheasant hunters around here use shotguns. Just some proportion of the bird shot has to hit the thing.

We've got a hunting area within a 6 iron of the golf course where i play and we see them out there every fall. Even with a shotgun, you'll hear 3 blasts and then look over there and see the bird flying away. So, hitting a pheasant must not be all that easy.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:17 PM

76. During the Depression, my father shot pheasants with a .22

 

.22 ammo costs a lot less than shotgun shells. When you hit a pheasant in the head, it doesn't spoil the meat. Obviously, he shot them while they were on the ground.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #76)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:22 PM

106. Boy, He Must Have Been A Good Shot!!!!

That's dammed impressive! Their head is the size of a walnut!
I never would have guessed that.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #76)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:18 PM

131. We used.22 cal cartridges filled with small shot to kill mice.

Very effective.

And yeah, my gramps hunted deer to feed his wife and kids during the depression.
Don't know caliber or type of gun he used, but my dad said there was nothing sporting about it. They were hungry. They made use of any advantage they could find.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:19 PM

6. While I know that hunters exist and many do eat the food they catch

It has to be an extreme corner case of where it's absolutely necessary to survive.

And in those cases, it seems like we should be able to supplement and help those families in someway (which we should be doing now quite frankly)

It seems to me that 99.9% of hunting is about the hobby, not the food.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:21 PM

8. "It seems to me that 99.9% of hunting is about the hobby, not the food."

Why not both?

Also I'm curious about where you got the "99.9%," even thought it's an opinion and not objective. What are you basing "it seem to me" on? What's your data set?

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:09 PM

67. Not even close.

It is about the experience of providing for yourself through fair chase ethical hunting. The meat is excellent, very lean and healthy. It is the goal of an ethical hunter to make sure that the animal is killed quickly and efficiently which is VERY different from the existence of animals in factory farming in this country. It is a family effort when a deer, elk or antelope comes home to get it cut and wrapped. My 12 year old got an elk and a deer this year and worked really hard to get it done. Early mornings in the cold with his dad not to mention the time spent at the shooting range to make sure he was familiar and comfortable with his rifle. He had to take a 4 week long hunters safety course to even apply for the tags. When his hunt was done, he was so proud of his effort. The experience of hunting for the guys in my family is not punctuated by the death of the animal. It goes much deeper than that.

For what it is worth, I was a strict vegetarian when I met my spouse. Not because I was against eating meat but because I felt I could not do the killing myself and felt it was hypocritical to buy meat from the store when I knew the animal was treated so horribly. The game that comes home to our house is from an animal that had one bad moment at the end of their lives as opposed to a bad life start to finish. If we are going to eat meat, it is important to understand that there is sacrifice involved. I take it seriously. I shot one deer many years ago. I cried and cried and then walked over a ridge and threw up. If my husband and son didn't hunt, I would not eat meat from the store.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #67)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:24 PM

85. Excellent treatise on why some people hunt.

Hunting is valid as long as the meat is put to use and bag limits are observed.

I used to occasionally watch the show Swamp People when I had time. I am sure that the majors ultimately made a decent mint, but the show depicted poor Sourthern life, where money is hard to come by and there are not many jobs around, places like those shown on Swamp People are becoming more and more of a reality as rural America hollows out.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #67)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:02 PM

139. My pops made the best damn venison jerky you ever tasted.

His marinated venison ribs were killer and my mom's dove cacciatore was out of this world. The meat provided by the hunters in the family.

Thank you this post.
I'm not much of a hunter , but I do know the first time I landed a trout all by my lonesome, I truly understood the sense of accompolishment the hunters in my family felt. Reading a river or tracking game successfully is exhilarating.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:26 PM

144. Despite the philosophical ramifications, I've heard hunters say...

You don't want to shoot indiscriminately. The more noise made, the more chance you scare away all potential game from your area. They say you don't shoot unless you're sure of the target. Once you fire one shot, you're clearing every bit of wildlife from the area in a mile radius around you.

Firing an AR-15 I'm guessing would be like shooting a cannon in a quiet forest - at least from the audio I've heard on video of the school shooting and the the Vegas shooting.

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Response to forgotmylogin (Reply #144)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:48 PM

154. In the last 2 years I have killed 5 deer and a hog

I fired my rifle 6 times. The meat I eat comes from animals that did not suffer at all compared to meat eaten by most Americans. And it is as natural as it can get.

And my rifle sounds like a cannon vs a popgun compared to an AR.

The AR is a wimpy round for ethical hunting of medium or large game. In the state I deer hunt it is illegal to use for deer.

Because it is designed for maiming humans, not humanely killing animals.

Have a nice weekend. If that is possible after this week.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #154)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 02:24 AM

171. Exactly.

A legit hunter isn't running around the woods chasing shit down, guns a'blazing firing hundreds of rounds. There's no massive reloading necessary. Rifles and shotguns are legit for that - they're not built to massacre hordes.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:17 PM

3. I never hunted but grew up in the country

Almost everyone i know hunts. I never did understand it but people really love the whole experience. It's a family thing. We as Liberals should really leave it alone as long as its not trophy hunting. Trying to take people's rifles and shotguns is not compromising on our part. Makes us look too extreme and our message is then lost

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Response to askyagerz (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:16 PM

75. Plus, many of we liberals also hunt

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #75)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:27 PM

87. Yes.

We do. And we're as Dem as they come in my household.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #75)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:48 PM

94. Yep

My home county votes about 60/40 republican but almost 100% of those people either hunt or have loved ones that hunt.
People also don't realize that this is one of the biggest issues that gets country folks to stay on the other side of the fence. Anytime someone from the left screams just take all the guns and hunting is stupid they are just hurting our side.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #75)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:31 PM

145. Yeah.

It stretches my food budget.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:18 PM

4. It depends on what you mean by "rely."

One deer makes a food budget go a lot farther. Venison is free-range and organic; I know how it was killed and butchered. It's also delicious.

Funds from hunting licenses go toward conservation and habitat efforts, too.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:38 PM

11. Personally, I think venison tastes like liver soaked in pee,

but a lot of people like it, and some depend on deer hunting to supplement their diets.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:40 PM

13. A lot of the taste depends on the dressing and butchering, diet of the deer, etc.

I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with it.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:29 PM

89. Thanks for the imagery.

Have to remind my self never to go into a restaurant and ask for liver that was soaked in pee, cooked medium well.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #11)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 01:47 AM

166. If it tastes like pee

Youíve been eating the wrong thing. Iíd be happy to give some pointers 😊

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:18 PM

5. No. Many people live subsistence

Just because YOU never had to or people don't where you live doesn't make it so.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:21 PM

7. There are better ways to help those needy families

Than giving them a gun and telling them to go hunt food.

And in any event, why must hunting be done by gun? there are other weapons.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:31 PM

10. Needy families aren't being helped as it is, whether they are rural or urban.

And the GOP is trying to eliminate existing programs for the poor. Why is it so terrible for people who need food to go out and obtain it for themselves? And have you ever tried to bag a pheasant with a net?

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:33 PM

24. Because we paying a horrible price in human lives

due to the free available of guns.

I bet the number of human lives lost to guns, far far outnumber the number of animals taken and eaten.

In any event, those animals taken and consumed could be hunted by other means. Hunting existed long before firearms were invented.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:49 PM

37. 6 million deer are killed by hunters in the U.S. every year

according to this source, which also describes problems with deer overpopulation. http://www.actionbioscience.org/biodiversity/rooney.html. So your supposition is incorrect.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:36 PM

92. The guns that are used in mass murder are not hunting rifles or shotguns.

As liberals, we need to understand what is a problem and what is not in regards to guns. If we try to take away people's hunting rifles and shotguns, we will lose the fight before it even gets started. If we focus on the real problem, assault weapons and Saturday night specials, then we have a chance to make society safer.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #92)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:52 PM

114. Bingo. Exactly right.

There are many legitimate reasons for hunting and shooting, as noted in other posts. (For instance, subsistence, animal population control where we have wiped out predator species, for sport, and others.) None of these activities use the weapons used for mass person-on-person violence.

We have to make it clear that we want to protect the right of people to engage in the legitimate activities and focus on eliminating only the weapons used for nearly all of the societal violence. If we don't make this distinction, we'll never succeed.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:34 PM

150. "Hunting existed long before firearms were invented." So did starvation.

Or are you under the impression the hunting with spear or bow is easy?

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #150)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 02:16 PM

183. In general I'm against making killing easy

If our goal is to make killing easy, then maybe we should just send everyone an M-16

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:31 PM

22. Many people living a subsistence lifestyle

Don't want or need any help and would be offended by the suggestion. Granted they don't need automatic weapons to do so but even I can't complain about someone owning their lifestyle and decision making, to take a life of an animal for ones survival gives you a far more honest version of life than hand out chicken nuggets.

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Response to Thyla (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:34 PM

26. And those people don't vote Democratic

But in any event...why not a crossbow?

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:38 PM

29. Good luck shooting a quail with a crossbow.

And, FYI, there are a lot of hunters who are Democrats.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:54 PM

44. Lots of hunters vote for the Democratic Party.

Some are even social democrats

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:31 PM

149. Who are you to decide what is best?

Seriously

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 12:46 PM

176. Where can they hunt?

I'm on the east coast, and they have to belong to some exclusive club to get access to the land. Is it easier out west?

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Response to treestar (Reply #176)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 01:03 PM

180. There are millions of public acres out west

If you are you willing to hike and pack out, the sky is the limit

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #180)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 01:06 PM

181. That's good.

Since it allows poor people to hunt for food.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:27 PM

9. It's a barbaric hobby. killing for fun.

Good ol family values. Kill a frightened animal to bond with the kids. I guess life can't be all monster truck rallies and cross burnings.

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Response to samir.g (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:41 PM

14. Pull yourself together.

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Response to samir.g (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:43 PM

15. Do you eat meat?

If so, I hope you purchase free range, cruelty free meat. If you go to the store and buy regular packaged meat, you are participating in cruel factory farming where animals are tortured from birth to death. There are almost no exceptions to this unless you are very careful to investigate where your meat comes from. Fair chase hunting is not cruel. Please see my comment below and for what it's worth, I've never burned a cross nor have I attended a monster truck rally.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:33 PM

25. Most people have cognitive dissidence when it comes to eating animals.

They fail to see that connection between "killing animals" and eating... One really has to do some pretty awesome mental gymnastics to pull that one off.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:53 PM

43. No, I don't eat meat. "Bagging a deer" is ...

a euphemism for violently destroying the still beating heart of a gentle, innocent creature. The only thing worse than such wanton killing, is to take delight in the killing. Such is the "hobby" of a hunter.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #43)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:55 PM

48. But they taste so good...

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #48)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:59 PM

54. Which other outrages agains human decency can be excused with "If it feels good..." nt

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #48)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:00 PM

55. They taste like liver soaked in pee, but many people like venison.

And many poor rural people depend on it.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #55)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:03 PM

60. I have had some that did

But there things hunters can do that prevent that from happening. This thread is not the place to go into that. Some here are offended by the very idea of hunting. I will refrain from going into details

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #55)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:13 PM

71. That can happen

when the animal is shot in rut or isn't dressed or cared for properly.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #43)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:07 PM

66. Your engaging in anthropomorphism by describing them as gentle and innocent. They are neither.

 

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Response to Marengo (Reply #66)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:20 PM

148. Rats with hooves

 

That have wildly overpopulated as a result of the lack of predators, and tend to be infested with deer ticks that spread diseases like Lyme to humans and other animals (I was treated last year). I canít stand the thought of hunting, but itís necessary, and there certainly are responsible hunters who are just as concerned about progressive issues such as the environment as we are.

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Response to djg21 (Reply #148)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 01:54 AM

168. The small group of guys I hunt with would likely surprise some of the folks here who express...

 

Prejudice towards hunters. For example we all, including the Mormon, strongly agree that the universal single-payer health care system is far superior to what we currently have. The Mormon served his mission in Spain so witnessed the benefits first hand. As for myself, when I began hunting as a teenager I identified as a communist. I hung out with a group of mostly older Marxists-Leninists-Maoists, most of whom encouraged me to learn the skill and had a strong disdain for the anti-hunting attitude, refering to it as a bourgeois fetish. On the scale of progressivism, these folks make most here on DU look pale by comparison.

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Response to Binkie The Clown (Reply #43)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:10 PM

68. I usually appreciate your posts

but you could not be more wrong in this one.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #68)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:02 PM

116. There is no objective right and wrong on this issue.

I feel one way, you feel another. Neither of us is right and neither of us is wrong. We are both being true to ourselves, and I respect that. But I feel strongly about it. The operative word being "feel". I simply don't have the heart to kill another living, breathing being. Some would call that a weakness. I call it a strength. But regardless of my strong wording, I'm not claiming to be proclaiming a universal truth. I'm proclaiming how I feel about killing.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:01 PM

57. Thank You!

If the government takes our guns away, they'll be even more aggressive and one-sided towards us than they are now. We are currently living in a de facto theocracy. Take away our guns and we'll be living in Jesusland. No thank you.

Responsible gun ownership is not the issue. It's *who* gets to own *what* guns that matters.

Who
People with agression issues should be banned from owning guns. Mentally ill peeps, abusive individuals, and bullies should have their guns taken from them. All types.
Period.

What
Robert Mercer is a Cheetolini loving fat cat who is a private citizen. He has the largest machine gun collection in the world. Why is beyond me. Who needs a collection of machine guns?!? I don't see him fighting ISIS...

All peeps with full auto guns, bump stocks, and auto sears (converts AR15 to an M16) should receive same penalty as peeps with silencers: 10yr mandatory minimum. The 1968 NFA law provides for this - *enforce the damn thing already*, wouls ya? There is no need for private citizens to have full auto or suppressed weps.

Semi-auto is no different from pump from bolt - one shot per trigger press. It's the NFA/full auto that scare me. If the Parkland shooter had a bump stock or converted his AR15 to an M16, he could've killed half the kids there.

And for the record, I used to hunt. With a compiund bow, or a pump action shotgun.

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Response to samir.g (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:46 PM

16. Trophy hunting, yes; it's despicable. Hunting for food, no.

Unless you're a vegan, some animal died for your dinner or your shoes. I don't care for hunting myself but if people are doing it because they intend to eat what they kill, I don't disapprove. In my family we almost always had pheasant for Thanksgiving, the result of my dad's hunting efforts. It was tastier and more healthful than turkey and the pheasants probably had a better life than some poor factory-raised bird. Also, my dad wasn't an idiot.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #16)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:26 PM

86. Donald Jr. and Eric are fans of trophy hunting



I think it would be fairer to give them each a knife and let them loose naked in the wilderness where the big game animals live. Now, that would be sport!

It could even be televised, since Donnie Two Scoops is such a fan of reality television. As long as he got paid royalties, Trump could give a shit what happens to his sons.

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Response to LastLiberal in PalmSprings (Reply #86)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:28 PM

88. The other day a pride of lions killed and ate a poacher.

I was fine with that.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #88)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:05 PM

126. I was too.

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Response to samir.g (Reply #9)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:12 PM

129. I agree...Killing isn't "fun" for me..

and no, I don't eat meat.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:38 PM

12. My husband and son hunt

Last edited Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:37 PM - Edit history (1)

because the meat is excellent and healthier than anything I can buy in a store. I will also say it is part of the culture here in Montana. We also grow a garden and raise chickens. Hunting is part of providing food for our family just like the garden and the chickens - being self reliant is something we are trying to teach our child so that if he has to, he knows he can provide for himself. We're not weird preppers either, if that's where you're going.

My husband has owned a taxidermy shop for 30 years. 99% of his clients are ethical fair chase hunters and I don't know any of them who don't fully utilize the meat. If they don't use it themselves, they donate to the local food bank or soup kitchen. I can afford to buy meat in the store but choose not to. Factory farming is cruel beyond measure. The first thing I ask someone who states they are an anti-hunter is whether or not they eat meat. Meat doesn't come from the store. It comes from an animal who most likely lives a miserable tortured existence until it dies a horrible death.

Edited to add: I firmly believe that the AR15 and other assault style weapons have no place in this country. NO place in the hands of anyone outside the military.

I take extreme exception to being called an idiot. Thank you very much.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 03:50 PM

17. +1

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:53 PM

97. I grew up on a small farm. I have seen farm animals harvested.

The one my family killed were lucky, they took a bullet to the brain, but even then they kicked until their throats were cut.

I think factory farms use blunt force trauma to the head. Never witnessed it, but my guess is the animals don't die instantly.

BTW, I agree with the points you are making, they are rational.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #97)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:02 PM

101. Thanks. I appreciate your thoughts.

This is my first experience getting a little beat up here on DU but I guess that's part of it. You're correct, death for animals on factory farms is traumatic and their life is worse. No animal killed for food should have more than a bad moment. We owe them that. If my husband and son didn't hunt, I wouldn't eat meat. I didn't grow up in a family that hunted, it was all new to me as an adult.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #97)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:04 PM

117. One "harvests" crops, and "murders" living creatures. To say "harvesting" doesn't change what it is.

I've never seen a carrot kick and scream in terror when it was harvested.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #97)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:49 PM

120. Animals are killed. Plants are harvested.

 

Use of such euphemisms makes me suspicious of a personís motives.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:18 PM

18. you are part of the problem

because of your lack of critical thinking and refusal to think this through... I'm pretty much a vegan and I desperately want some limitations on guns... I do not hunt, but I am aware of people that do and the part they play in our society

hunting is an important cultural thing... many people "give a shit" about hunting and no, you are incorrect that there are grocery stores on every corner (see food deserts: http://www.foodispower.org/food-deserts/ )

...and yes, there are people in places that rely on hunting for their nutrition

...hunters cooperate in conservation of wildlife (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10370_12141-294259--,00.html)

So, ok you have conceded that, we as a society, we can allow reasonable "guns"


we are stuck with that... we do not need to alienate the millions of legitimate hunters and supporters of them by being unreasonable about the subject and calling them idiots

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:30 PM

20. Part of our cultural is also killing kids in schools

Sometimes culture has to change

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:11 PM

69. killing children

is an aberration, but yes, I very much agree that cultural change is sometimes desperately needed

to effect the changes needed we need to be thoughtful and deliberate... I am as angry as you and I have no doubt that you are angry... hunters are not the people we need to be addressing right now... I plan on sending photos of children killed to Republican congresspeople everyday until something happens...

these are some of the ideas that I think could easily be implemented... I am sure there are more...

Background Checks
22 percent of guns are obtained without one

Protection Orders
Keep men subject to domestic violence protection orders from having guns

Ban Under-21s
A ban on people under 21 purchasing firearms (this is already the case in many states)

Safe Storage
These include trigger locks and guns and ammunition stored separately, especially when children are in the house

Straw Purchases
Tighter enforcement of laws on straw purchases of weapons, and some limits on how many guns can be purchased in a month

Ammunition Checks
background check for anybody buying ammunition.

End Immunity
End immunity for firearm companies. Thatís a subsidy to a particular industry

Ban Bump Stocks
A ban on bump stocks of the kind used in Las Vegas to mimic automatic weapon fire

Research ĎSmart Gunsí
??Smart gunsĒ fire only after a fingerprint or PIN is entered, or if used near a particular bracelet.

ATF computer base of guns owned
CDC allowed to research

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #69)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:14 PM

72. All of this.

It will take efforts on many fronts to make our kids safe. Thanks for your thoughtful comment.

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #69)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:31 PM

91. You list a lot of good ideas. Another area I'd consider is requiring some kind of insurance.

I think it's definitely going to take a range of actions.

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:36 PM

27. Very well said.

Thank you.

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:06 PM

65. LOL! But you'll alienate your ally right here on DU by calling HIM names. Seems like that's OK.

And no. He's not a part of the problem. He posted something on a website. Get a grip.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #65)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:15 PM

73. I did not call anyone a name...

that is not something I do (unless it is DT or associate)...

I call out shortcomings I see occasionally... I know the poster is angry... I can't imagine that anyone is more angry than I am but that doesn't mean I can't address something I think is in error

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #73)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:22 PM

82. You said he was part of the problem that is causing these slaughters. That's vile.

you can parse all you like, but that's still going to be vile.

Thoughts and prayers to you. Wavey thing.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #82)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:31 PM

90. I want to apologize

to anyone who thinks I was referring to the killing... my response was to address the furthering conversation about gun control

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:23 PM

19. Hunting has nothing to do with owning firearms.

 

In fact, there has been a confirmed decline in hunting participation. Fewer Americans are taking up hunting each year.

The AR-15 is the most popular rifle in America today. It is not a hunting weapon and many of the people who purchase an AR-15 have never been hunting nor have any interest in ever going hunting.

As such, these people also have zero interest in Grandpa's old bolt-action .30-06. The covet the cool black guns from the video games they grew up playing.

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Response to EL34x4 (Reply #19)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:31 PM

21. Well yes.

That is part of my point.

Why do we keep tiptoeing around hunting when it comes to gun regulation?

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:47 PM

35. Who's talking about hunting? Nobody cares about hunting.

 

The people buying AR-15s don't care about hunting.

You're talking about banning all firearms and carving out a 2nd Amendment exception for crossbows.

This isn't going to happen.

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Response to EL34x4 (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:50 PM

38. Oh I agree that not much will happen.

Who's talking about hunting? It's usually only one degree away from any discussion of gun bans. Surely you have noticed that. Nothing is more sacred it seems than the great white hunter. This is my point.

I'm talking about what should happen.

No doubt we'll all have this same conversation a few more times this year, without all the same points brought up, same disagreements and same results

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Response to EL34x4 (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:01 PM

58. There are people who told me that today

They use the AR15 for hunting

I called them out on their BS and still mum.

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Response to RockaFowler (Reply #58)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:19 PM

78. How did you call them out? My neighbor uses an AR-15 variant to hunt coyotes, and Ive used...

 

A .308 variant on a mule deer hunt.

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Response to RockaFowler (Reply #58)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:20 PM

79. I haven't used one to hunt, but I have friends who do.

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Response to RockaFowler (Reply #58)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:24 PM

84. I don't know any hunter

who hunts with an AR15. I'm knee deep in hunters too. We've owned a taxidermy shop for 30 years.

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Response to EL34x4 (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 12:49 PM

177. Yes. The hunters in my family only have

hunting rifles, and that's all. The rest is camouflage, small boat, tons of gear.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:32 PM

23. Your post is the ignorant equivalent of pouring gasoline onto the always red hot

"They're a' comin' ta git our guns!" wacko propaganda. And, the notion that "no one" relies on hunting---and fishing, and gathering---to live is an admission that you know little about the rural poor in America.

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Response to Atticus (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:40 PM

31. Honey, Turn on the stove, got a couple of possums today!

And you don't need a gun to fish.

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Response to Capperdan (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:54 PM

45. You don't need a gun to gather greens or mushrooms, either, but so what?

The point is that there are people for whom hunting continues to provide food which is needed by them and without which they would, at times, go hungry.

You are free to not care about these Americans, but do not deny their very existence.

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Response to Atticus (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:51 PM

40. Those wackos are beyond reason anyway

And they will believe that they want to believe.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:37 PM

28. In my neck of the woods, it's not just about getting food.

Although that is a big part of it.

I live in what was a semi-rural area that has become more suburban in the 30 years I have lived here. I don't think anyone out here has never had an encounter with a deer in the road. My son in law messed up his car pretty good last year (lucky for us they make cars so safe now!). The deer are doing fairly well with the increase in traffic, but it is still a thing.

Also, for as much as I am in awe when i see deer, I know if they did not have predators (and that is pretty much people now, since the real predators are long gone!) there would be a lot of problems with starvation and disease among the herds.

Note: I personally could not hunt for meat. I buy meat that l tell myself looks nothing like an animal! But I know folks who get a good portion of their food supply this way.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:40 PM

30. Where's the corner grocery store in the Smoky Mountains?

Some people in poorer parts of the country can only afford to eat meat that they hunt for themselves. So essentially what they hear you saying is "who gives a shit that I am taking food out of your kids' mouths". And then they flock to Trump.

I would support limiting guns to hunting rifles and then capping the number that people can own. I don't think it's either morally correct, necessary or politically wise to ban all hunting with guns. Also totally unenforceable.

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Response to meadowlander (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:45 PM

34. I've been to the Smoky Mountains

I didn't miss a meal.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #34)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:50 PM

39. So have I, but I don't live there.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #34)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:52 PM

41. Did you grow up in a cabin there

with no plumbing or electricity, home school instead of spending two hours on a bus every day, get the only job you could paying $7.50 an hour ($15,000 a year before taxes) with no benefits, get married, have three or four kids and then try to raise them on it?

No? Then you are being willfully obtuse.

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Response to meadowlander (Reply #41)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:55 PM

46. No but my father did

And in fact his conditions were much much worse deep in rural Kentucky. I've been to the cabin he grew up in. Except he didn't have a school bus.

He didn't rely on hunting I do know that.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:58 PM

52. Then I guess nobody else ever does, either.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #52)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:02 PM

59. Well you asked a question and I gave you an honest answer


Look - we both know that there are people who need food assistance.

I'm saying lets make sure they get it - every day and on a regular basis. Surely that's better than putting a weapon in their hands and hoping they get lucky taking down an animal, while at the same time giving cover to the gun-people in our society that believe in free and unlimited guns for all.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #59)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:20 PM

80. You asked "Why is hunting so sacred".

The answer is because it gives food insecure people a feeling of security. And their lives are already hard enough.

Yes, in some parallel universe where all government was Democratic and we sat down and decided to dedicate resources to making sure nobody goes hungry in the country, we could theoretically feed everyone. But we don't. And its not going to happen any time in the foreseeable future. We can't even agree that basic health care is a human right.

Hungry kids are not going to wait for government to get its act together. And having the feeling that, no matter what shit hits the fan, you can still go out and feed your kids something is what drives the attachment to hunting with guns. That is the mindset that you are up against.

Do you think someone clueless enough to make a statement like "there are grocery stores on every corner" coming in and saying "You're an idiot. You can live on field greens like my dad during the Depression" is going to change that mindset or convince that person to vote for your party?

Why not use a crossbow? Because it is harder. And when your kids' survival is at stake, you use every advantage you can get.

I also support food assistance. Let's do it. But in the meantime, let people provide for themselves. You don't need to take hunting rifles to stop school shootings. Start with the low hanging fruit - assault rifles and handguns. Address food insecurity. Then you have a foundation on which you could potentially make a case for restricting hunting.

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Response to meadowlander (Reply #80)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 10:58 PM

147. You forgot that many of the "poor" have a pride in thier way of life.

They are survivors and to walk up and GIVE them something that they can not PAY you for is an insult.

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Response to meadowlander (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:57 PM

51. Thanks for the reasonable post. nt

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Response to meadowlander (Reply #30)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 12:52 PM

178. If I remember right, even in Australia, under their restrictions

they can have guns for hunting.

Hunters don't strike me as gun freaks, collecting as many guns as they can. They only want hunting rifles and if they spend more it is on other hunting gear.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:42 PM

32. It's very deer to many people's hearts

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Response to underpants (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:56 PM

50. ...

 


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Response to Adrahil (Reply #50)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:45 PM

109. LOL

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:43 PM

33. I like to swim, some people like golf, some like to hunt.

Some people like the solitude of the woods and tracking stuff. I honestly have no issue with single shot hunting rifle and shotguns or even three or four shot ones.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:47 PM

36. Fuck hunters, fuck gun fuckers, fuck gun enablers.

 

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Response to Retrotech (Reply #36)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:52 PM

42. "gun enablers"

I think that is a better way illustrate my point.

Our sacred protection of hunting, turns us into enablers of gun violence.

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Response to Retrotech (Reply #36)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:00 PM

56. Ah, well! If your gonna throw REASON at us! nt

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Response to Atticus (Reply #56)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:04 PM

62. Someone murdering creatures who never hurt them

 

in the name of "Harvesting food" in an age of supermarkets has already abandoned reason.

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Response to Retrotech (Reply #62)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:16 PM

74. If you are not a vegan, you are eating "creatures who never hurt you". Were they

"murdered"? Ever butcher your own chickens or hogs or steers? Is that "murder"?

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Response to Retrotech (Reply #62)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:17 PM

77. Lollllllllllllll

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Response to Retrotech (Reply #62)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:56 PM

98. Okay, here's the Arkansas redneck liberal coming out.

First, are you vegan? If you are, you'll know that it's an expensive way to live compared to what people on SNAP can afford. Talk about balancing vegetable proteins to get a full complement all you want, but just try to justify your soy formula for your non-milk allergic baby to a WIC officer based on personal beliefs.

Now, if you're going to say that somehow getting your meat in pre-packaged plastic containers means that your hands are as clean as the package seems to be of "murdering creatures who never harmed you", you've obviously led a life distanced from the reality of meat as food.

Have you ever raised meat?

Have you ever fed a pair of calves from the time they were weaned until they were ready for slaughter? Dealt with getting head-butted off your feet because you didn't want to dehorn the feeder calves, or castrate them unnecessarily if they'd achieve weight before it was necessary and no females to get them unnecessarily excited around? Gotten affection for them even after landing in literal bullshit? Cried when you took them for processing, but still ate the meat because beef comes from cows?

Have you ever raised eggs? Woke up in the morning to go to the outhouse and been greeted by a flock of free range chickens? Decided whether you could hold your water long enough to give them their morning corn, or if you wanted observers the entire time you took your dump? Searched for eggs and candled them to make sure there wasn't an embryo surprise waiting for you if you put it in the baking? Stewed the aggressive culled roosters with dumplings?

Have you ever raised dairy? Tried to milk a goat? Goats are quite interesting, though my advice is to fence them OUT, not in. They love tomatoes, and don't think about leaving anything that looks green and leafy near them. Our nanny produced enough for the child in the household who was having allergy issues and still keep her female kid healthy. They got the highest prices at auction when the kid grew up, and went into a dairy herd.

Have you ever even driven BY a commercial poultry operation? You'd know because of the smell.

Have you seen the birds being bred as fryers? We hwd three male Tyson refugee fryers dumped on us by would-be rescuers. They did better in our flock, out-competing the native roosters for the hens, but genetically they were very flawed birds because the line wasn't bred for health -- it was bred for fast weight gain and fast slaughter. Despite having free range all three developed problems that required euthanasia before four months had passed. They couldn't walk and were getting mites the others could fight off.

You think I've abandoned reason because I actually feel better about eating the venison my hunting family members gift us with than I do animals I haven't raised? I at least know the venison in my chilli had a better life before becoming venison than most of that perfectly pre-packaged meat at the supermarket.

Now, I have said multiple times in threads that hunting didn't suffer during the "assault weapon" ban, and won't suffer from magazine limitations. And I'm *glad* it's illegal to not process and either eat or donate your kills here. Just killing for sport and not using the sacrifice of the animal's life for food IS beyond reason.

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Response to Retrotech (Reply #62)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:57 PM

115. Reason?

Try using some.
Not everyone on the planet has cash/access to supermarkets.

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Response to Retrotech (Reply #62)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:51 PM

121. Much better and more morally pure to

 

pay someone else to do it in a murder factory?

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Response to Retrotech (Reply #62)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:29 PM

133. Aninals killed for food

and sold in the grocery store have endured a tortured existence at best from birth to death. Buying meat at a supermarket supports that torture.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:55 PM

47. Some poor rural families depend on hunting for meat.

 

My sister's family gets more than half their meat from hunting.

But more importantly, hunting is essential in many areas to keep the deer population in check. WE've eliminated most natural predators, so hunting is important to keep the deer population from destroying the ecosystem and causing a massive starvation die-off.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:56 PM

49. I dont care for

hunting culture at all and donít understand it. Doing it for your survival is one thing but itís cruel in its own way maybe less for the most part than the slaughter houses. Itís not safe and Iím sure more than a few people hunt when drinking etc and end up shooting each other or an innocent etc. I visited at a farmhouse in the Perigord and it was awful. Nothing but gunshots in the early evening and dusk and you couldnít go outside for a walk safely. The dogs there were also trained to be vicious except for a roaming beagle who came to visit us. I have to eat meat due to health reasons but I eat free range / humane and I hope to be able to go back to vegetarian or vegan at some point.

Youíll never stop guns or hunting in this country that is certain. Making it safer is the only thing that can be done and maybe not even that.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 04:58 PM

53. Grocery stores on every corner?

 

Have you ever been to Alaska?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #53)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:05 PM

63. There are grocery stores on almost every corner

here in my urban Minneapolis neighborhood, where I couldn't hunt if I wanted to, and where even if I could, the only wild game would be squirrels, raccoons and small birds. There are no grocery stores on every corner in parts of the country where there aren't even corners, which in terms of square miles is most of it. If you're living in Alaska, most of the central plains, Appalachia, or many poor communities in the south, you are probably a very long way from a grocery store.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #63)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:12 PM

70. Right - the US is a very diverse country in so many ways

 

The experience of living in urban Mpls is very different from living in rural Alaska, etc.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:03 PM

61. When I was growing up, there were times we wouldn't have had much...

...protein in our diets if it weren't for the venison, duck, and pheasant my grandfather hunted.

And I wouldn't be so certain about your assertion that "no one" relies on hunting to live now. There are still a good many subsistence hunters and trappers in frontier areas here in NM and I imagine other states with frontier areas have similar populations. As do rural mountain areas back East.

Personally, I think 'camera hunting' is way more exciting and satisfying than hunting with guns, but there are still several good reasons to allow and support well-managed game hunting.

It would be difficult to manage populations of deer in some areas without deer hunting, for one.

For another, the involvement and engagement of wildfowl hunters in their sport is actually responsible for quite a lot of habitat preservation.

informatively,
Bright

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:06 PM

64. I have known a few people who hunt for food. One couple were indigenous.

It is the least environmental footprint of any way to get meat. I don't mind people hunting if they eat what they kill. Especially indigenous or poor.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:20 PM

81. I think hunting with bare hands and teeth is okay if you eat everything you kill.

Raw.

That's Manly Hunting. Everything else is just pushing a button.

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Response to byronius (Reply #81)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:23 PM

83. You must be a vegan?

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #83)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:09 PM

105. Ach, spotted.

Yes. And I was being sarcastic.

I am a ravager of tubers and nuts, however.

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Response to byronius (Reply #105)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:22 PM

107. I can appreciate that.

I have to take exception to the "push button" hunting comment, however. Fair chase hunting can be really challenging. It is hard work if done ethically. If my spouse and son didn't hunt I wouldn't eat meat. I was a vegetarian before I was married. We don't buy meat from the store. Yes, they hunt with a rifle but they're not out spraying bullets in the woods with an AR15. I hope there's room for all of us here at DU acknowledging that we're all different and bring something unique to the table, so to speak.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #107)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:34 PM

108. It was vegan humor, sorry.

I grew up with hunting, never cared for it, don't really have too much of a problem with it unless you're talking canned hunts or trophy animals or 120 grand worth of satellite gear and rifles with scopes and an ATV carrying a 320 pound guy drunk and high on meth who's glaring at backpackers with a sinister leer.

Because I have seen that. And I thought about hunting that #$%#er.

And I would have eaten him.

Part of the strange thing about becoming vegan aside from the amazing goddamned health boost (!!!!!) is that your consciousness begins to stretch out of the box. Almost as if human consciousness won't allow someone to consider animal suffering if it's part of the diet, but once you quit, it creeps in.

I'll never go back. But I try to be the vegan I would have wanted to meet before I became vegan.

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Response to byronius (Reply #108)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:47 PM

111. Gotcha.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm with you 110% on the trophy/canned hunting BS. It's disgusting and I have no room for it. I guess all we can do is try to be the best whatever we are for the good of all of us. I appreciate you talking to me about where you are byronius.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:41 PM

93. There may not actually be grocery stores as convenient as you suggest but Amazon's comin'.

And wait until they've got drones delivering everywhere...
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/08/amazon-prime-now-whole-foods-groceries-delivery.html

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:48 PM

95. trust me it is and thats all there is to it

its sacred

i don't understand it
i don't like it

but i have seen it over 60 times....
don't mess with it.

you will just drive it underground and provide fertile hunting ground for the wackos

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 05:51 PM

96. Animals you kill yourself are not necessarily healthy for you to consume.

So if you like to kill 'em yourself, don't use that as your excuse.

ĎSurprisingí Discovery Made About Chronic Wasting Disease
New study shows that prions can bind to plants
BY COOKSON BEECHER | JUNE 1, 2015

Soto would agree. He said that even though there have been no confirmed cases of infections in humans from CWD, the public should know that ďitís a possibility that needs to be explored.Ē

ďI donít want to scare people,Ē he said, ďbut these (CWD) prions are accumulating, and prions have a long incubation period ó sometimes as long as 30 to 40 years in humans.Ē

]http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2015/06/researchers-make-surprising-discovery-about-spread-of-chronic-wasting-disease/#.WodRZKjwaUk

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:01 PM

99. Make hunting more sporty

By having the hunters use rocks and a sling.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:01 PM

100. Can you name a mass shooting that used a traditional, non-automatic hunting rifle?

I am not a hunter, but I support the right to hunt.

Most people have no idea of where there food comes from beyond the grocery, store, and this is a huge problem that undermines sensible, sustainable relationships between human populations and our long term survival which is dependent on the productivity of the land.

Even non-subsistance hunters have a close relationship with the land, and I think their voicing opinions to the governement about land management is very important.

BTW, the only mass shooting I can think of that the shooter used a traditional hunting rifle is the clocktower shooter at the University of Texas in 1966:
[link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman|

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:03 PM

102. hunting

It's not about being able to hunt for food. They want to be able to hunt people, specifically non-white people. Got it

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:03 PM

103. It's like gathering.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:08 PM

104. The government took my NA ancestors guns once

and told them they wouldn't need to hunt, they would provide all their food. They wouldn't need the skins for warmth or shelter, they would provide homes and blankets. They wouldn't need protection from their enemies, they would protect them.
We won't be fooled again.

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Response to Runningdawg (Reply #104)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 05:22 PM

187. The treatment of Native Americans is a permanent stain on this country.

We need to apologize for it and try to make amends the best way we can for the genocide.

If I were president, thatís exactly what I would call it...a genocide.

Iíd be shot in my first year in office.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:45 PM

110. I do dispute needing a gun to hunt. My second cousin prefers archery.

And I know she's proficient. Her deep freeze is never empty. (Even with a six annual limit here, that's a lot of processed meat per hunter.)

Why does she in particular keep on, despite being a grandma herself? She was the oldest and went along with her now-deceased father on hunting trips a lot growing up. And she likes venison. It may not be the only was she can keep her family fed, but it does reduce winter meat costs.

Yes, they were the "country cousins", my grandparents bucked tradition and moved to the city. They often had feeder animals, which I only raised while I spent time in a *very* different ideologically group (off the grid sustainable living).

Myself, I more enjoyed my required deer camp attendance shooting with my camera, though I wasn't excused from learning the basics of processing. I also enjoy fishing (and am much better at getting a good fillet there.) My sister and her husband enjoy both a lot more than I. They get time in the wilderness and meat.

I actually tend to agree archery is more sporting. But muzzleloaders aren't what's causing shootings, and if semi-automatic is the new technology, magazine limits should be 1000% Constitutional regardless of if people argue about whether an AR is a great weapon for filling your freezer to supplement food. If you need more than 5 bullets to shoot a deer, the Maine/Oregon regulation, you are either lazy because you just don't want to reload, or don't need to be shooting.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:51 PM

112. It always cracks me up when hunters kill a deer and get a picture with it.....

it is like some big accomplishment.

Really weird to me.

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Response to USALiberal (Reply #112)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:11 PM

118. It can be, though. It's not easy.

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Response to WhiskeyGrinder (Reply #118)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:42 PM

119. Use a knife only and I'll be impressed. nt

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Response to USALiberal (Reply #112)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 02:45 AM

172. that is a gun humping coward thing

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 06:51 PM

113. Most of the hunters I know

don't need the meat. They just like to put on the camouflage outfits, jump in the truck and go tromp in the woods.

Mostly it's a guy bonding thing. And they get out of the house for a while.

I don't hunt and I don't like hunting but if there wasn't hunting the deer population would go completely out of control. We have way too many deer as it is. So many get hit by cars. Cars get wrecked and people get hurt or killed.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)


Response to Name removed (Reply #122)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:58 PM

125. Enjoy your stay. n/t

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Response to Name removed (Reply #122)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:12 PM

128. The firearm is indeed the issue.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #128)


Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:56 PM

123. Hunters are weak, relying on a gun

 

to kill at a distance.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #123)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:37 PM

134. Wow.

Just wow.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #123)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:05 PM

140. So bow hunting is fine with you? n/t

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Response to MicaelS (Reply #140)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:48 PM

155. that is from some distance too

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 07:57 PM

124. Because it's a good way of saying "Fuck You very much"...

To people with your mindset. That's a good a reason as any.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:10 PM

127. Less than 6% of the USA population went hunting in the past 12 months. That's small,

 

and most probably went to drink, talk racist crud, and shoot a couple of baited animals for jollies.

True hunters are not really a problem, as long as we aren't talking people.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #127)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:45 PM

135. Generalities don't help this conversation.

We've owned a taxidermy shop for 30 years. I know tons of hunters. While there might be a puke hunter here and there, "most" of them don't go out to drink, talk racist crud and bait animals. None of them hunt with AR15's and none of them hunt people. In reading this thread there's quite a few hunters here on DU so this general talk about how horrible hunters are is useless and offensive to me.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #135)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:52 PM

137. Sorry, fact is less than 6% hunt and shooting a bear may be good for your business, but

 

that's not good enough to allow people to buy AR15s, etc.

Personally, I'm fine with someone who hunts to feed his family having a gun or two for that. And, I'm sorry, you might not see racist white wing, drunk hunters, but I've seen plenty of them in baited fields, especially when I was younger. Didn't impress me a bit.

Do the math if you think there are more than 6% of population who are regular hunters --

https://www.statista.com/statistics/227422/number-of-hunters-usa/

http://www.outdoornews.com/2017/09/21/hunter-participation-numbers-continue-drop-sorry-situation/

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #137)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:09 PM

141. I dont disagree that 6%

might be right on. I also don't disagree that there are some racist right wing hunters out there too and they don't impress me wither. My point is that there's a lot of those folks who are reasonable about wanting to own a shotgun or a rifle and don't want AR15's or military type weapons in the hands of civilians. There are quite a few of those same folks here on DU in fact. I AM doing the math and we need everybody on board if we're going to get any kind of gun control in this country. I don't think we should alienate those people in the process. We won't get all of them to be sure but we could get some of them. I'm headed to Australia in a week, my husband is judging their national taxidermy competition. Australians are avid hunters. They also ban assault weapons and understand why that is necessary. We can do that too.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #141)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:46 PM

153. Enjoy Australia. I really dont have a problem with hunting rifles.

 

Heck, most states limit number of shells they can hold.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #127)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 10:26 PM

146. Well that is my point

or at least part of it.

We are allowing a small part of the population to provide cover for the rest of the gun nuts.

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Response to fescuerescue (Reply #146)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:58 PM

159. I agree. Heck, only about 33% even own a gun. And a lot less own and carry the

 

type weapons that are a problem.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #127)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 12:01 AM

160. "Less than 6% of the USA population went hunting in the past 12 months. That's small"

That's about 20 million, not quite a small number.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #160)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 12:06 AM

161. Many, one time for chits and giggles. Are all the guns you own just to feed your family?

 

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #161)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 12:07 AM

162. They frown on hunting in beach cities in Fla.

I don't own any rifle made past WWII.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:23 PM

132. Population Control

Some of the comments here are snarky and rude. Hunting has been a tradition in this country since its inception. Do you think the wild turkey that the pilgrims ate at the first Thanksgiving just walked up on the table and died. No it didn't. Deer hunting is a source of food for homeless shelters and it is also a form of population control. We have killed off the natural predators of deer and thier population has exploded. In some states the deer herd is suffering from a disease called Chronic Wasting which Is like AIDS. They have discovered that there is a direct link to overpopulation of the herd. Another issue is crop loss as well automobile accidents. My FIL hunts every.fall on his property. Every deer he kills is processed and given to family members or an organization called Hunters for the Homeless. My freezer is full of deer sausage and deer ground beef. It is low fat and high in protein and
I know exactly where it came from.

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Response to bpj62 (Reply #132)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 08:49 PM

136. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I really appreciate knowing what's in my freezer, where it came from, that it died as easily as possible and that we cut and wrapped it ourselves. Hunting seems to polarize people much like abortion does. If you don't like hunting, don't hunt, but demeaning fair chase hunters as a rule is a mistake and it will alienate people we need on our side on the gun control issue.

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Response to bpj62 (Reply #132)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:00 PM

138. And most deer don't die of old age.

Lately some have been getting CWD, but most of the time they are either eaten by a predator - wolves, bears, cougars - or they starve to death. Cougars kill quickly with a bite to the neck, but wolves and bears don't. Being shot by a hunter is probably a whole lot more merciful than being torn up by a wolf pack. Nature usually isn't very nice. Somebody is always eating somebody else.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #138)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:09 PM

142. It's all out war in the wild or even the lawn

Everywhere one looks there is a struggle for survival as species fight to ensure the continued survival of their own. This goes on with vegetation, insects, birds, mammals, amphibians and every other living thing. While one may sit within the shade provided by a majestic oak tree one hot summer day, all around is open warfare. Even that tree had to fight and continue to fight to survive.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #142)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 09:12 PM

143. Black walnut trees are particularly vicious.

My next-door neighbor has one and it killed my tomatoes and a crabapple tree.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:34 PM

151. Not being argumentative

Iíll try to politely explain. I hunt deer and every year I kill 4 or 5 does. The limit is 3 does a day. Thatís how bad the over population is where I live. We get 3 or 4 guys together and butcher it ourselves. The only thing we donít do is making the ground part. We have a local guy who will grind one for $60. Thatís most of the meat my family eats.

This is a rural area. I grew up in a farming area and moved. Iíve lived in urban and suburban areas for 20 plus years and moved back to the country. Itís poor here, the average combined family income is $30,000. Guys will work 3rd shift slinging steel and then go jump on a tractor for a couple hours. Union Dems in a right to work state.


A lot of us hunt with rifles and shotguns that were handed down to us from our fathers or grandfathers. A box of deer ammo is expensive so we make each shot count. When my buddy kills one he calls and we all come over to help.

Sometimes I think it be nice if everyone had to live a few months in the other persons shoes. I include myself in that.

-1B

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Response to DashOneBravo (Reply #151)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:55 PM

158. Hunting like that, without AR15s and similar, is OK by me. Stocking up

 

on semi-auto rifles, ammo, magazines, carrying pistols, waving confederate flags, and worse is not OK. And you know there are a lot of fools like that in rural areas, and even cities.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #158)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 01:07 AM

164. Waving a traitors flag

Is always wrong. Thatís from a pasty white southern guy

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Response to DashOneBravo (Reply #164)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 01:48 AM

167. Well, Im Southern too and you and I know a lot of gunners are like that.

 

Thatís where I have an issue.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:42 PM

152. they enjoy killing

they NEVER admit it - they're always hunting for, oh, food, or to control the animal population or whatever....they will never say they like to kill and even look forward to it

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Response to Skittles (Reply #152)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 01:36 AM

165. My spouse and son hunt

and we are fortunate to have really good meat in the freezer as a result. Sometimes theyíre successful sometimes they arenít. When weíve got more than we need, it goes to family members who are happy to share with us. Neither of them look forward to killing the animal...itís much bigger than that. Itís the experience of being outdoors, respecting the resource, knowing where your food comes from and providing for yourself. We grow a garden and raise our own chickens and thatís part of it too. We donít buy meat from the store.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #165)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 01:55 AM

170. they enjoy hunting

just say it

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Response to Skittles (Reply #170)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 11:52 AM

174. Yes they do. Happy now?

But the actual killing of the animal isnít the highlight, for lack of a better word before Iíve had my coffee. I just asked my husband what he values most about it and he said thereís a million reasons why he hunts. The first and foremost is a successful hunt provides meat for our family for a year thatís healthy, free of whatever critters are given on factory farms and knowing that the animal had a good life unlike anything that comes home from a supermarket neatly wrapped in cellophane. He also says that killing is the worst part of the whole thing and he always feels remorse when itís done. The second, in his opinion, is teaching our child that he can provide for himself and the understanding of where his food comes from. Thereís sacrifice involved and when an animal dies for food and if weíre going to eat meat, we believe that owning a place in the process is important. Some on this thread agree and some donít and I find the emotion about it really interesting.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #174)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 05:13 PM

184. uh huh

alrighty then

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Response to Skittles (Reply #152)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 11:19 AM

173. Having hunting family members, I don't doubt there is some satisfaction in using a skill.

I've mentioned my second cousin. Our grandparents diverged by mine moving to the city, hers stayed in the farming/rural community. She's a grandma now, and still goes out every year.

She prefers archery because it does require more skill to get a clean kill. And yes, she posts when she gets what could be considered "trophy bucks" by bow.

But absolutely NO one sane enjoys the event of "shit, not a clean hit, now we have to track and put this suffering animal out of its misery". Which they would if it was a sadistic thing. They'd rather miss completely. Not for laziness -- but because ethical people who kill animals don't want more suffering for the animals than absolutely necessary to accomplish their goal. A single shot drop not just indicates skill, which people can feel a sense of pride for exercising, but also that the deer doesn't suffer long (at the worst a throat slice ends their pain).

And yes, this is the same side of the family where talk of castrating feeder calves has come up at Thanksgiving. I was against it if you were isolated enough from cows in estrus as the calves in the sustainable living collective where I raised two and they didn't get extremely onery before they got to weight. The relatives said they had too many and a good vet, though they did agree about dehorning being unnecessary for calves expected to be beef in a year.

Perhaps people who have raised meat are less distanced from the reality of meat, egg, and milk production.

But I see far less ethical issues with a hunter who follows all laws (especially here the CWD management regulations) and eat the deer they kill (unless harvested from the CWD zone and tests showed positive) than I do with commercial poultry operations. If nothing else, when you can smell the damn houses from a mile away, you know those animals are living a "life" that's horrible. Even if domesticated breeds can't realistically live wild, you can give them better lives, and deaths, than that.

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Response to moriah (Reply #173)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 12:57 PM

179. This is so well said. Thank you for saying it.

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Response to moriah (Reply #173)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 05:13 PM

185. it is the #1 satisfaction

as for SKILL -that's kinda like saying it is a sport

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Response to Skittles (Reply #185)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 05:28 PM

188. From the use of skill to kill, or just killing?

I don't think the latter is true or there'd be more excitement about slaughtering time.

I prefer to use my shooting skills with a camera. But it doesn't put meat in the freezer.

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Response to moriah (Reply #188)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 05:30 PM

189. back to the food, and the population control, and "do you eat meat"

I'm not for banning hunting or anything like that but I prefer not to be around people who enjoy killing

over and out

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Response to Skittles (Reply #189)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 05:39 PM

190. I was actually trying to explore motivations, but your call.

You can get almost everything out of the "deer camp experience" shooting with a camera, except meat. Because it probably takes at least as much skill to capture a beautiful shot of Bambi on film. Maybe some photography classes in schools rather than gun classes?

As for me, I'd be fine with national magazine limits for semi-automatic long guns to match Oregon and Maine's 5 round limit, and 8-10 for handguns. If you need more than five bullets to kill a deer, you have no skill and/or are just too damn lazy to reload. And the person I know who did use a firearm for self-defense only got center of mass with her first shot from the .22, the other four bullets were two misses and one in each arm.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Fri Feb 16, 2018, 11:54 PM

157. Those who hunt AND eat what they kill

I am not a hunter, but lots of people care about hunting and I see nothing wrong with that. In some ways those who hunt (and eat what they kill) are being more honest about what they consume than those who buy meat in the store and never stop to think where that meat came from. At least the animal killed cleanly in the wild led a decent life, and wasn't killed on a factory farm.

I think any sort of ban should start by banning AR-15s. I see no issue with hunting rifles other than requiring stricter mental health screening and backgrounds checks. Machine guns are already illegal. Six-shooters are everywhere but same as hunting rifles should come with stricter background checks / mental health screening. I'd love to ban those too, but let's be realistic; I think a more politically palatable approach would be to make biometric ID (i.e. fingerprint activation) mandatory on new weapons; it won't stop suicides but can prevent a lot of accidents. AR-15s are the biggest problem in terms of school shootings, and it's really flared up since the AWB was overturned in 2004. Reinstating that would be a good start.

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Response to cvoogt (Reply #157)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 01:54 AM

169. Good ideas. Most gunners are opposed to biometric IDs or other safety activation systems, thinking

 

it might impede killing some scary guy like skinny, unarmed Trayvon Martin. Truth is that gunners donít care about some child getting their gun, shooting an innocent person, mass shooting, etc., if it impedes their need for and access to guns.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #169)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 05:44 PM

191. even the tiniest impediment

elicits screams of "you're trampling on the 2nd Amendment!". I know. But my new smartphone's iris and fingerprint scanners are sooo easy to use... I don't see how such technology's much of an impediment. I see no excuse anymore; this technology's pretty well-tested now.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 12:17 AM

163. I would never hunt but I understand why others do it.

I have relatives in North Dakota and they need guns to deal with coyotes and other predators. They own land where they raise elk and hunters can go and hunt them for a fee. Yeah it is odd that they need guns to keep predators from killing the elk so humans can go and kill them instead but that is what they use their guns for. They hunt for food and sport too. Their living room is filled with mounted animal heads.

I think this is a topic where there really is a big rural/urban divide. I am a city slicker and I really don't get the big emphasis on guns except maybe for home protection but I have read that it is more likely that a gun used to stop bad guys will be used for suicide or accidentally shooting somebody.

But I can definitely see why rural people like guns. I think there are more practical uses for guns for rural people than urban and suburban people. Hunting is one use. Another is sport shooting which is another thing I have zero interest in but many other people love.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 12:44 PM

175. Some people really love it

Primarily male people. Some male bonding ritual as they hang around behind the blinds or in the boat. My nephews hunt all season. Their dad got them into it. So I know how much they really just love it. Not particularly understanding of it, but they do really love it. They take the results to a special butcher and I think a lot of it goes to a food program for the poor. They keep a lot of it. One of them had his roommate willing to cook deer - venison - soup too. They make jerky too.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 01:13 PM

182. I guess if you have hunted you might be able to see the answer clearer. Among many things

 

hunters and the licenses/tags issued are used to control herd sizes (as for deer), hunters are one of the biggest groups that advocate for public lands remaining in the hands of the public as well as environmental protections of wetlands. This is same path of logic that vegans want to take to ban all meat sales. Not going to happen and not supported by a majority of americans.

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Response to fescuerescue (Original post)

Sat Feb 17, 2018, 05:18 PM

186. Allowing hunting rifles and shotguns takes care of the hunting argument.

I would also allow highly controlled revolving pistols, mainly for those who do like to shoot for competition and sport.

Otherwise I see no need for anything else beyond these three categories.

I would also license the living shit outta the purchasing of ammunition.

Also, I would raise the purchase age of firearms and ammunition to 21. Sales of ammunition below 21 would need a guardian adult licenseeís signature.

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