How the small business I worked for relied on public investments.

[RBInMaine]

Romney and the RePUKES are of course taking the President out of context over the "You didn't build your business alone." remark. Of course Romney's Bain Capital received government help, and the Salt Lake City Olympics received HUGE government help and even Mitt told the athletes that it took "community investment" to get them where they were.

Allow me to showcase an example of how a small business (and ANY business) relies on public investment. For three years in high school I worked in a small independent sporting goods shop in a Maine coastal resort town. The couple who ran the business were young and worked very hard to start it and make it a success, no doubt. However, here is how they could never have been successful without public investments:

1) They both attended public schools to get the smarts to start and run the business.

2) To get their inventory shipments, they needed transportion infrastructure which is a public investment.

3) They needed the US postal service, a public investment.

4) Their employees like me needed some smarts, gotten in public schools, a public investment.

5) Much of their market was public school and college athletes, or athletes and active people who got their start in public school and college athletics programs, a public investment.

6) Many of their customers used their athletics products on public roads and paths, at public pools, lakes, and beaches, on public running tracks, on public playing fields and athletics courts, in public parks of all kinds, all public investments.

7) They did their business banking through a publicly insured local bank.

8) Many of their customers were summer tourists, and those tourists would not have come to the town without a great deal of local government investment in public infrastructure upkeep and improvement in support of all the local businesses.

These are a number of the key ways public investment made that retail business possible, and much of that can apply to many businesses. Business is always working in partnership with federal, state, and local government in many ways, and business can not exist without these public investments.

[zzaapp]

1. I very respectfully disagree.

As owner of a small business, I can say this with some certainty.

There is some grain of truth to what you say, but it has been my experience that government, whether run by Dems, Repugs, or
independants, is more of an obstacle than a benefit.

Anytime I hear any politician from ANY party say that they
are "Behind the small business man" I know that they are correct
because I can feel them back there everyday F____ing me.

[RBInMaine]

2. You have not refuted a single thing I've said, nor can you.

A "grain" of truth. No. A TON of truth. That business would have been entirely unable to exist without the kinds of important public investments I've mentioned, and the same can be said of ANY business large or small. Sorry you don't like dealing with some regulations. Don't like it, then get out of business and be an employee instead. You wouldn't be able to have a business without the kinds of public investments, and others, I have mentioned.

[zzaapp]

3. Wow....lighten up.

I thought that some input from a small business man would be
appreciated. I didn't say that you were wrong, I just wanted to add to the discussion.

[RBInMaine]

4. You added little to nothing. It was a non-rebuttal rebuttal. My parents are small business owners.

I worked in their small business too. Without public investments, their business could not be possible either, and they aren't whining about government impediments.

[zzaapp]

7. I have to ask a real question...

and the last thing I want to do is fight, really.
But I'm curious, what did I say that made you so hostile?
I've re-read and re-read my first post and I can't see anything that would cause such a reaction. You responded like I was making fun of your dog or something. Really, I'm being serious, please explain so I won't make the same mistake again.
Your input is much appreciated.

[Fumesucker]

12. Different people have different styles..

If you're new to the whole comment board thing it takes quite a while to learn your chops..

DU is actually pretty mild compared to some places online, say Yahoo political boards or usenet political newsgroups, there's a number of sites I visit where the art of the insult is taken very seriously indeed.

[zzaapp]

14. LOLLOLLOLL

Actually, I am a master of good standing in the art of flaming.
And I can take it too. I'm being on my super duper top secret
double good behavior. I don't want to be considered ill manned you know. .......at least not yet.

[riderinthestorm]

44. I bristled at your reply, I'll tell you why

I can't answer for the OP but I'll answer for me.

You offered up a blanket condemnation of "government" assistance without a single example. Right now there's a flamewar going on between the Rethugs and Dems about government assistance in ALL shapes and forms - education, health care, infrastructure, taxation, etc. The OP listed some specific examples of how the government has helped a small biz he personally knows about, has an intimate working relationship with - then you then proceeded to imply his points were simply trivial cuz ya know, ALL government is bad in your experience.

You appeared to denigrate his thoughtful OP and by extension a company he clearly cares about. You didn't offer any real rebuttal. You appear to be spewing Rethug talking points - or at least highly charged libertarian points, which aren't exactly a good fit for a Democratic discussion board.

DU does take some getting used to. I hope you will take some time to figure it out. I believe your "voice" is important. Thanks for listening to me too.

[zzaapp]

46. Hi Rider...thank you for your honest critique. If I may

retort point by point.
1. My post started with " I very respectfully disagree"
(not exactly denigrating)
2. I did state that there was a grain of truth in what he said
and in fact didn't challenge the OP on any point.
3. I did not offer a "blanket condemnation" of Government.
I only related my experiences in the realm of how it
affected MY business.
4. My intention was not to offer ANY rebuttal of any kind but
to point out that my experience differed from his.
5. At no time did I intone that his/her points were trivial.
6. I did in fact give an example of Government inefficiencies
in a latter post.
7. In my post, I very clearly stated that I held BOTH parties
responsible for the treatment of small business men
Rethug ???????!!!!!!!!! ouch
8. Is the fact that I'm somewhat Liberal mean that I have to
march in lockstep even if I disagree with a particular
point? I think there is a name for that.

[riderinthestorm]

47. Nobody, not one single person on DU has ever said you must walk in lockstep

Nobody. I can assure you that I hold some very unpopular opinions on "hot" DU topics and I just collect the ignores and go on my merry way.

As for your post, I told you how it came across to me that's all.

Good luck

[zzaapp]

48. No kidding....I really DO appreciate your opinion.

Can you give me a few examples of "HOT DU topics" to be careful of ? Fume suggested yesterday that I look it up in
Welcome and Help....and I will, just haven't had the time.

Have a GREAT weekend.

[riderinthestorm]

49. You don't have to be "careful", you just have to know they are controversial

and expect to mix it up in the fray. Guns, public smoking, breastfeeding in public, burqas, circumcision, the ACA... there are more but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Certain Dem issues and positions here are ironclad - traditional Dem principles of marriage equality, striking down DOMA, upholding the social safety net, strong government regulatory powers etc. This is Democratic Underground after all.

[zzaapp]

50. So if I said,"Ted Nuggent for President" that would be bad? lol

[guardian]

72. "Nobody, not one single person on DU has ever said you must walk in lockstep"

You obviously have not been to the Environment & Energy group.

[calimary]

51. Perhaps it was this?

"There is some grain of truth to what you say, but it has been my experience that government, whether run by Dems, Repugs, or
independants, is more of an obstacle than a benefit."

I do appreciate the tone of your question here - you don't sound like you're spoiling for a fight or anything.

You know, it's funny about writing these things down. No one hears the vocal inflection, or sees the facial expressions or eyebrow tilts or winks or whatever - that add lots of other meaning and subtext. Often it's easy for someone to read something there on the flat page and misunderstand. I'm sure you've seen a few posts by now where somebody's asking - "did you forget the 'sarcasm' (one of the smilies)?" That happens a lot.

I'm sure you didn't mean offense, since this sounds pretty sincere, and it's good to hear from the small-business-person's side. However, your post may have read as possibly negating the point of the OP. The "some grain of truth" may sound, to some, as demeaning and belittling in nature. After all, everyone recognizes that a "grain" is a rather minute object. Hard to quantify this stuff, of course, but I think the OP does make a legitimate point - a LOT more than a "grain" of truth in there just talking sheer size. No one discounts that small business owners work their asses off. But they do so standing on many other shoulders - of those who ALSO worked their asses off - to build the roads, build the bridges, process and deliver the mail, build the aqueducts and water systems that enable the sanitation of each small business, build AND staff the public schools in which the small business owners were educated as children and their employees for the most part probably are, too. And even if they went to private school, the construction and staffing and maintenance of same STILL required the products of public investment, whether in transporation, sanitation, electrical systems and infrastructure - all those are public things. Public utilities they're called, sometimes. And that's no "grain's" worth, it's actually a rather substantial, and ongoing, contribution.

I think that's what's known as a social contract. We all pay in and we all get value back out. We all invest and we all share the benefits.

Could this be part of what John Donne meant when he soliloquized that "no man is an island"?

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee." (Meditation XVII)
http://www.online-literature.com/donne/409/

[mysuzuki2]

55. Rather than going back and forth with rbiinmaine, why not give

us some examples of how government is fucking you? I think he is right in his contention that a business needs infrastructure provided by government to succeed. As a small business person your examples of how government gets in the way might help us all to understand better. (and yes he does seem needlessly confrontational)

[zzaapp]

63. Hi mysuzuki2

I would really like to vent on this topic, but I don't think it is appropriate to do that on DU. To your point, when you say
"infrastructure provided by government" to succeed. I assume you are speaking of roads, bridges etc.? My contention is that
those services are no provided "gratus" but are a direct result of our tax dollars, not largess by the government (any government)

[mysuzuki2]

64. of course they are not gifts from the government.

We all pay for them through our taxes because we all need them.

[riderinthestorm]

66. Businesses pay taxes to utilize those services too.

And then some of that stuff is subsidized by the government for businesses, large and small.

You appear very loathe to grant that the government provides any benefits to business (like subsidized health care for some of businesses employees, or the courts, or the police and fire departments, or tax deductions etc. etc.) but have yet to articulate those ways you feel the government is really hindering business.

I for one would also like to know

[zzaapp]

67. Rider with all due respect

I would love to give examples but many of my points involve
taxation, and undue regulations, and I don't want to get bounced. (per your advice lol)

and yes, there certainly is a place for gov. in the business world.
IE: discouraging monopolies, enforcing child labor laws, making sure that workers are documented, prosecuting obviously fraudulent business practices...etc.

[riderinthestorm]

69. Nobody will bounce you if you have legitimate grievances.

In your #1 post you stated:

"There is some grain of truth to what you say, but it has been my experience that government, whether run by Dems, Repugs, or
independants, is more of an obstacle than a benefit.

Anytime I hear any politician from ANY party say that they
are "Behind the small business man" I know that they are correct
because I can feel them back there everyday F____ing me."

Now you seem to be saying that taxes pay for the roads, sewers, bridges, waste disposal, etc etc that businesses use and that's good but your inititial post seem to be indicating a daily fucking by government which doesn't square with taxation if that's what you meant.

Or "undue regulations" when you then go on to say that government regulations ARE necessary to discourage monopolies, enforce child labor laws, ensuring documentation, prosecuting fraud...

You seem to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth. As a business owner you must have some ideas off the top of your head of a daily government fuck job. Honestly, I'm a small business owner and I can't think of any. That's why I'm so curious what you are seeing, that I'm not.

[zzaapp]

70. Yes, some gov regs ARE necessary.

"I can feel them back there everyday F____ing me."
Perhaps a slight exaggeration....must have been a bad day.

By taxation, I meant the tremendous tax burdens on the small businessman. I hope that clears it up. Next subject?

[riderinthestorm]

71. Which ones do you find too onerous? I feel comfortable with my tax rate

since I know it pays for services I need and use.

I also understand my obligation to pay payroll taxes, Medi, and unemployment taxes - they all have value in my mind and help my employees. Which ones are problematic for you and why?

Do you feel any taxation is a problem? You seem to think that the services your taxes are providing are good and necessary... or maybe I'm ASSuming.

[zzaapp]

73. I don't feel that way at all

The taxes that you mentioned are very neccessary. I'm not an "anti-tax goon" at all.

As to the rest, I agree 100%

[zzaapp]

65. We can agree then, that business

would be very tough without roads...but the essential means to being a successful business person are. Getting up every morning and going to work, spending your money wisely within your business, cutting corners and scrimping in your personal
life if you have to, running an honest and fair company, taking financial risks to build something lasting, having the courage to strike out on your own, etc. To me, these are the values that
determine success to a great degree, and I think that sometimes people forget that.

[Fumesucker]

5. Actually you did say you disagreed, albeit nicely..

[zzaapp]

8. Thank you Fumesucker.....

I guess I'm still learning the ropes. I've read the forum rules carefully. I ask this with all sincerity. Is disagreement of any sort
frowned upon here. If so, I will be more careful.

[Fumesucker]

9. Disagreement frowned upon on DU?

It's what most of us live for I think... There's just a few subjects that are like nitroglycerin though, you could ask about them in the Welcome & Help forum or if you dare in Meta-discussion, wear head to toe Nomex if you go into Meta, it's not a friendly place for the most part. If you ask in W&H any number of DUers will be glad to help you in avoiding the land mines here.

In your second post you wrote that you hadn't said the OP was wrong, I was just pointing out that "disagree" as in your first post means "I think you are wrong"..

[zzaapp]

10. Point well taken.....and I appreciate the help.

It just seems that anytime I post anything that departs from the
prevailing "group think", or if I try to add a little humor, or God forbid, my own real world experience,it just seems to rile people up. I've actually been accused of being "overly optimistic" like that's a crime. In any event, thank you for your tolerance and kind words.

[Fumesucker]

15. DU gets a lot of people who sign up purely to troll or deliberately disrupt..

If you have a low post count and you're bucking the prevailing wisdom here you're going to come in for some hostility and suspicion.

Actually you're going to come in for hostility and suspicion no matter how many posts you have but it's much stronger with n00bs.. We've had posters with tens of thousands of posts, more than me, who have been outed as deliberate disruptors.

As I said, there are some land mines here that are not at all obvious until you trip them and then they blow up in your face.

[zzaapp]

18. well, hopefully, I'll find those land mines before I get booted.

Do you get a first time warning, or get put in time out before being axed?

[Fumesucker]

22. If you start getting posts hidden it's a clue..

Old timers can get away with considerably more, Manny Goldstein's posts come to mind, he drives some people here nuts but a lot of us like him and some of us think he sometimes approaches brilliance.

Some few things will get you axed tout suite, like I said, ask in W&H..

[zzaapp]

25. will do

[BanzaiBonnie]

52. Why the unusual handle?

Start a conversation with "ZZAAPP" as your handle? and you wonder what might put others on edge?

I don't know you. I don't know your intentions. They may be absolutely the best. You believe you are reaching out. The likelihood is that with that name tagged on, you believe you are here to educate us. Just a guess. And I may be wrong, but I've seen it many times.

You may be surprised to know that there are as many small business owners here as there are in any swath of the general population.

Sometimes the government throws out stumbling blocks. What we do where I live is get active in our local politics and get changes made so that necessary regulations do not strangle us.

Recently, I've found that many onerous regulations have come down through the state to the local levels that were at the behest of ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange Council. Regulations created to kill off the small family farm. That's what I'm dealing with. Direct from sources with huge money who want to control all our food and food production.

That would be the government when working hand in hand with multi-national corporations. There's a problem. I suspect if you do your research the trail may lead all the way to ALEC.

[zzaapp]

68. zzaapp was my nick name as a child.

And actually, I came here to learn, not to educate. That would be rude.

[zzaapp]

74. BTW....I'm thinking of changing my "handle"" to

lovepeacekumbayah. Your thoughts?

[NCTraveler]

6. As a small business owner I am also a part of the public.

As were my parents, their parents, and so forth. Nothing on your list was given to me. None of them are a favor to me by the government. I have a right to use public roads as a citizen and a small business owner. We paid for them, we get to use them.

[zzaapp]

11. Well put

[joeglow3]

13. That was my beef

We all have the right to use those same roads and schools. If that is what allowed your business to succeed, we would all have successful businesses. The reason you have a successful business is because of YOU.

Obama's premise is the same as saying we owe everything to monkeys because without us evolving from them, none of this would have been possible.

[zzaapp]

16. Exactly !!!!!!! and although I vote for him

I would not hesitate to the tell the President that in this case what he said, if that's truly what he meant, is dead wrong.

[BanzaiBonnie]

54. IMO, the problem is, the President's words are being taken out of context.

[zzaapp]

61. I thought that might be the case....but

no matter how I tried to spin it in my mind, it still seemed like a slap in the face.

[Fumesucker]

17. Try having the successful business *without* all those things..

That was the point of the OP, it requires infrastructure to run a modern business and infrastructure for the most part comes from government actions..

Things would be very different indeed in an entirely privatized world, I suspect some of us may get to find out just how different if they have the misfortune to live long enough.

[zzaapp]

19. agreed, but that didn't seem to be the "tone"

of the OP, at least not to me. Perhaps I should re-read.

[NCTraveler]

20. I don't need to try and have a successful business without those things.

My employees don't need to try to be successful without those things.

The public, which I am a part of, has determined that they are beneficial. And not just to my business.

Things would be different if we didn't have opposable thumbs.

[Fumesucker]

23. So those things just *are*, they fell from the sky fully implemented?

And of course they can never, ever go away or change?

I'm reminded of the Isaac Newton quote about how if he had seen further it was only because he was standing on the shoulders of giants..

The public, as represented by their politicians, seems to think that some of those things you depend on for your business maybe aren't such a good idea after all.

[zzaapp]

26. If you would, would you clarify.

"The public, as represented by their politicians, seems to think that some of those things you depend on for your business maybe aren't such a good idea after all."

What ideas would those be ?

[Fumesucker]

28. Post Office and Public Schools for two..

Strong effort to destroy both.

It seems like the PO is mostly under attack by conservatives but attacking the public schools is thoroughly bipartisan, Arne Duncan is a disaster for public schooling as education secretary.

[zzaapp]

30. agreed

[zzaapp]

33. Fume what does N/T mean?

[Fumesucker]

35. No text, it's for dialup folks who don't download the whole thread..

Tells them they don't have to download the rest of the message, nothing there..

[NCTraveler]

40. This is where I think your argument goes flat.

"The public, as represented by their politicians, seems to think that some of those things you depend on for your business maybe aren't such a good idea after all."

These things help so much more than my business. They help me, my employees, the unemployed, vacationers, visitors, everyone.

"And of course they can never, ever go away or change? "

No, they cannot go away. Change, yes. Hopefully for the better. Have you looked at the roads bills. Both parties support them. Ted Kennedy and Bush came together on education. Even with ass hats like Arne Duncan, people do what they feel will make things better.

While you are zeroed in on Obamas comments about small business, the fact is that these items make us all better.

And once again, I am a small business owner and a member of the public. No favors are being done for me. These are our funds being used in what we hope to be the best interests of society.

[Fumesucker]

42. Both the Post Office and the Public Schools are under severe attack..

What is in the best interest of society is decidedly a matter of opinion, if the opinion of the voters as expressed by the politicians they elect turns against some or any of the things we are discussing on this thread then those things may well go away.

I was at a family gathering a few days back, I sat and listened to two relatives who are public employees, a fireman/emt and a cop have a discussion and it was clear that they utterly loathed the entire government other than the part that paid their particular paychecks. I heard a deluge of Fox News talking points distilled from the essence of purest Wingnut droppings.

These ideas are out there even among people collecting a government paycheck and on the Public Schools at least even the Democrats are on board with tearing them down..

My parents both were business owners separately, two different businesses from before I was born, I grew up surrounded by and steeped in small business and I've had my own business for a long time also. I'm not delusional enough to think I did it on my own or that my parents personally scratched up from savagery to create the civilization that allowed them to be in business.

[NCTraveler]

43. I do not think I did it all on my own and don't want it to seem as though that is what I mean.

I also appreciate and agree with most if not all of the sentiments laid out in your post.

[MattBaggins]

36. So you would call them an entitlement?

hmmmmmmmmmm?

[NCTraveler]

41. Really. Thats where you are going to go. Nice fail. nt

[taught_me_patience]

21. You forgot the #1 thing... court system to enforce contracts

Without contracts, there is no business... period.

[zzaapp]

24. Speaking of contracts..

This story relates to my first post about government impediments and inefficiency. This happened to me in the
"Bush years". My business involves submitting quotes for a certain product/service. I had never ventured into the realm of government bidding, so I decided to try. Now, typically the way it works in the private sector is like this. Someone emails me a quote (always urgent). I work up the quote asap, submit it, and if the customer has any questions, he will call. BAM !!! done in one day.

When I received my first government quote, I swear it arrived at my office in a 5 pound envelope. It was almost 32 pages long.
(and this was for a fairly simple project). It read like it had been
written by a first year economics student that had never had
a real job. Anyway, I skimmed through it, and at the end there was a line that read. "Lowest bid not necessarily accepted"
WHAT ???
I took the whole pack and threw it in the garbage.

[laundry_queen]

58. Want to know the reason for all that paperwork?

Government is accountable to the public. They have to make sure all their i's are dotted and t's are crossed. They need to justify the project, they need to make sure the proper specs are in there, they need to make sure you have every little bit of info you may need, because if you start charging more because of something that wasn't listed - the government will be held accountable by the people should they find out (most paperwork is now posted online with our local government so everyone can see them for transparency purposes). That's also why 'lowest bid not necessarily accepted'. Often times going with the lowest bid means that the work will be crappy, or the company is low-balling everyone just to get the contract only to raise prices later (for those things 'missing' in the paperwork). The government must make sure they don't simply pick the cheapest bid, but the best value for taxpayer's dollars. They also need to make sure they pick a reputable business, since they don't want to choose the lowest bid which happens to be some poorly run company with shitty cash flow that suddenly goes bankrupt in the middle of the project. Then they have to start all over again with approvals, whereas private industry is far more facile. Small businesses often have some room to manoever with regards to cost if they are a profitable business. Even if their required return ends up being higher than their actual, they usually still make money. Government doesn't have the same wiggle-room. They have a budget and there is no profit cushion.

You may call it inefficiency, but it's a necessary check and balance for the proper disbursement of public funds.

[zzaapp]

62. I can see your point

[1StrongBlackMan]

27. And ...

The biggest public/government support that any/all business(es) rely on is the Court system that ensures that 1) they will be paid for the service/product that is purchased; and 2) ensures that if they are not paid, provides them with recourse, other than having to resort to taking up a couple of their softball bats and pursuing the deadbeat.

[zzaapp]

29. Yes but

again, those court services are funded with our tax dollars.
They work for us.

[1StrongBlackMan]

31. Oh, Yeah! n/t

[zzaapp]

32. 1SBM

Don't laugh but, what does n/t stand for?

[1StrongBlackMan]

34. Just a notation ...

indicating "nothing following", like EOM (End of Message).

[zzaapp]

39. thanks 1SBM

[ronnie624]

38. It means there is no text beyond the headline of he post. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

37. And who would insure them without police and firefighters just a phone call away?

And without insurance no one will loan them a dime.

It is all connected.

Don

[riderinthestorm]

45. Don't forget public health care (to the extent its available). VA, SCHIP, Medicare, Medicaid

hell even some big businesses like our own military and Walmart employees rely on their folks getting food stamps!

[HiPointDem]

53. small businesspeople do rely on government investments in many ways. but in many other ways

they are fucked by rules that favor big corporations.

[PETRUS]

56. Favors for small business owners

Small businesses do receive plenty of subsidies from the government in the form of special tax breaks, exemption from various labor, health & safety, and environmental regulations and below market loans. These costs are borne by the rest of society. Perhaps this is good public policy, but we should be aware of and honest about it. Most small businesses fail. Even more would go under without these provisions. Some suggest - and I think this idea has merit - that small businesses are propped up by the state because their existence provides excellent cover for a lot of right wing economic policy preferences (e.g. small business owners are almost always invoked in discussions about taxation, the minimum wage, etc.).

[HiPointDem]

57. no, they don't. which is why the percentage of the population who own small businesses has

decreased steadily since the 1900s.

[PETRUS]

59. Sure they do.

Here's documentation. Chapter 7 of "The Conservative Nanny State" provides an overview. It's a free download:

http://deanbaker.net/index.php/home/books/the-conservative-nanny-state

Most of the book talks about subsidies and favors to large corporations but US policy does in fact prop up the small entrepreneur.

[HiPointDem]

60. "Most of the book talks about subsidies and favors to large corporations"