And if evidence points to the Russians actually changing votes?

[edhopper]

What happens.

What if enough of those 70,000 votes in the key States were switched by Russian hacking?

I fear nothing.

[cilla4progress]

1. Good question

I have no idea. I don’t believe there is a process. We must rise up and demand justice.

[Rene]

46. snd they can do it be switching serverst

I support batch scheduling software on distributed servers....we always build applications with a primary and secondary server(backup. a simple 'switch' script changes which of the two servers are in use to tun the actual batch script. it's so easy to flip between the two servers...they can be thousands of miles apparent..it's done by their URL. Same named script on script...but the script on the alternate server would be rogue and possibly switch/flip votes.

[Angry Dragon]

2. Hillary becomes president

[fierywoman]

3. I totally agree.

[unblock]

6. sadly, no. there's no process for that.

at least not until she wins in 2020

[onetexan]

11. Simple: there IS precedence, just not at the level of the presidency

This is the first time we have a stolen/rigged POTUS election. If that's the case Hillary & Dems have basis for a challenge, which may entail nullifying trump as potus. Will be tough but given the damage done & what s at stake I think it should be possible.

[unblock]

13. Like I said, true statesmen would find a way. But not the Supreme Court.

They can’t just make Hillary president by decree or force a new election.

But what could happen is that everybody could insist that no republican could legitimately be president and force republicans to at least make a compromise candidate president. They’d never go for Hillary, but there must be an independent they could agree to. They’d make that person president through normal order of succession.

That’s possible if the media were willing to keep up the pressure. I wouldn’t hold my breath even for that, although that at least is constitutionally possible.

[Dave Starsky]

25. Seem to recall that the SC decreed Bush as Prez in 2000.

In a precedent-setting case that they said had no application to any future law.

So fuck the whole idea that the Constitution would prevent this. That document only applies when convenient, nowadays.

[unblock]

28. Just because we disagree with a previous court decision doesnt mean they can just make up law

Bush v. Gore was obviously a horrendous decision, but they had laws and constitutional provisions to interpret. They did do poorly, arguable deliberately so, but they had some basis for getting involved.

There’s no basis for the Supreme Court getting involved if a presidential election turns out to have been hacked.

There are other solutions — impeachment, order of succession, constitution amendments, regular elections.

But looking to the Supreme Court to fix thus one is a waste of time. Hell, this Court, including gorsuch, wouldn’t fix it even if you believe some other supreme court might. *this* one won’t.

[Dave Starsky]

29. Guess we're well and truly fucked then, aren't we?

[unblock]

32. being stuck with a republican president for the balance of donnie's term after he's force out

is the least of our troubles.

foxnews and hate radio and rotten republican billionaires and the influence of money in politics and foreign influence and the republican party's contempt for fair elections -- these will all long outlive donnie's reign of error.

[Voltaire2]

14. There is no process for a challenge

after the results of the electoral college votes have been certified by congress. That is the end of it. The process at that point is impeachment or the next election.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

44. Seems like we need a process for this for future instances of electoral chicanery

Dunno what that would be, nor do I expect Republicans to have a solution but it definitely needs to be studied/examined by a future Democratic Congress and POTUS.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

19. Often wonder why so many people here

Jump so quickly to point out no way no how. Of course there's no precedence because it has never happened before! What is missing is that the GOP doesn't share the same values at all anymore. They don't care that our leader is a lying thieving traitor. Change that and all of them would find a way. How about the simplest dignified approach that used to work....they ask him to resign.

[unblock]

33. if i had any faith in the media, that could happen.

back in 1973, say they unearthed proof that mcgovern had actually won the election but republicans cheated to make nixon appear to win.

one could imagine them maneuvering mcgovern into the presidency by appointing and confirming him to the vice-presidency then nixon resigning.

republicans in that era had enough dignity and statesmanship to kick nixon to the curb. republicans weren't so blindly partisan back then.

now districts are gerrymandered and the media is balkanized and it's nearly impossible to imagine them cooperating with righting this wrong. once upon a time, the media would have kept the pressure on them to do the right thing.

no longer. the media thrives on dysfunction.

donnie may yet resign, but we'll be stuck with pence or some other republican... and the media will declare victory as if that fixed everything.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

47. good points. We all, including media are falling so neatly into

trump's trap as well. He's throwing a zillion balls up in the air and we are all running to catch the one closest to us.

I wish the media would have a constant scroll on the bottom of the screen of all his sins. Hasn't that happened to you - someone mentions something and you go "oh man, forgot about that" there are so many "forgot about thats"

[unblock]

48. I know. Theres so so much. Sometimes I want him his undoing to just be

His begging Russia to commit electronic espionage so he could use the emails in his campaign.

Just a simple and obvious felony in plain view on national television. No complicated money laundering, no obscure campaign regulations, no emoluments, just that early direct crime.

A simple message that it wasn’t that he got so bad eventually he had to go, it was that he was always that bad and everything he did was enough to sink him.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

49. Agree. Hope that would do it. I am currently living in deep red - in contact with

people all day long that simply ignore everything I KNOW they care about - honesty, spouse faithfulness, collaborating with the Ruskies. So, I have ZERO idea what would get to them. that is, if we care about bringing the red masses on board.

[w100jmi]

58. Same here, in SC! Eom

[Laura PourMeADrink]

66. I dreamed about this last night. Russia has the tape

Of trump in the Obama suite in Moscow with the prostitutes. Been thinking if a release of the tape would be enough? Maybe half?

[triron]

55. Excellent point.

Agree with you; I also wonder.

[DemocracyMouse]

53. Yes, rise up and demand Hillary be declared the rightful president.

All so-called "conservatives" are spineless, self-serving cowards. They can only win through slimeball tricks and in the face of majority defiance, they will have no choice.

This ABSOLUTELY must be done nonviolently - not just to keep the moral high ground – but as strategy. Without a reason to declare martial law, the Republicans have lost their last corrupt trick.

[TheDebbieDee]

4. I question the sanity and common sense of those (mostly on the right) who

admit that perhaps the Russians accessed the voting systems of several states yet DIDN'T change the vote totals. SERIOUSLY?

[sarah FAILIN]

12. I keep telling people this

They hacked into the databases for a reason. We just haven't figured it all out yet.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

20. Doesn't seem like it would be hard...bushco did it.

[Igel]

15. Say it this way:

The Russians hacked the voter systems in a decent number of states, but there's no evidence they hacked the voting systems.

That make it clearer? One dealt with voters; the other deals with voting.

As for affecting the voters, it's unclear if they changed anything because it's unclear that would have changed anything.

[poboy2]

30. Changing an address on voter info might disqualify at the booth the day of voting.

Provisional ballot or denied voting as a result.

[mythology]

22. And I question the knowledge of the systems of anybody who thinks those are the same

It's utterly mind-boggling to me that people seem to think the voter data rolls are the same database as the actual votes. Two different systems.

There's also the actual evidence from Wisconsin where counties that hand recounted didn't differ significantly from counties that machine recounted. The differences were around things like where a voter both marked the bubble and did some other mark that registered as an over-vote.

There's also the fact that the national polls were more accurate in 2016 than they were in 2012. Kind of awkward for your conspiracy theory.

[sarah FAILIN]

23. Then why did they do this?

Everything has a reason

[Lee-Lee]

40. Imagine the chaos if they had been able to manipulate the rolls

They hack the rolls, nobody notices, and on Election Day thousand or millions of people show up to vote and can’t because their registrations are deleted or things like polling place changed.

What kind of disarray would that have caused?

If you want to make it more insidious you take red states and only screw up the registration of black voters. You take blue states and only screw up the registration of registered Republicans. You take a state with a governor or Secretary of State very pro-Hillary and only purge people outspoken for Bernie.

If you could actually manipulate the voter rolls undetected you could cause all kinds of chaos and undermine confidence in the entire system.

[Lee-Lee]

26. And also the fact that voting machines dont hook to the internet

To hack them means you must physically gain access to them one by one and modify each one.

Either you have too gain access to them something between when polling starts and the vote totals are tabulated and you have to change the memory card that stores the data. This means do that for each machine while it’s under two person watch. And you can’t just add hundreds of votes to every card, since they know how many people voted in every precinct vote totals higher than that would be a red flag. Oh, and the machines all have anti-tamper seals over the memory card slots that show if someone removed the card.

So how could they do that? And do it to thousands of machines in just one state to swing the votes..

I have yet to see one plausible explanation how it could be done.

Or else they gained access to the machines prior to the election and hacked the software/firmware. That would mean once again each machine individually would have to be accessed, removed from storage, powered up, either hooked to a computer and new firmware/hardware installed or taken apart and actual chips/boards swapped, then put back in place. These machines are kept under lock and key in government buildings. How could anyone or any group manage to do that to thousands or tens of thousands of machines to have enough impact to swing the election?

And if they managed to break into board of election offices in hundreds of counties and hack thousands of machines, or hack the memory cards for just as many during elections, all without any trace or evidence or getting caught once, how did they manage to write firmware that went totally undetected in all the pre-election testing of the machines that happens and also produced fake results totally undetected by audits down post election and totally undetected by the very smart people who work for the DNC who monitor this stuff in real time at every level and pour over every election result like forensic scientists for months after?

And before you you run and post some video from YouTube of someone “hacking” a machine by swapping memory cards or opening it up, ask yourself “how could someone or a groups do this to thousands of machines and not get caught one single time?” If you can’t explain that, then you don’t have a case for hacking. If you can find a plausible explanation how that can be done (and I would love to hear it) ask yourself how it could go undetected in pre-election testing, real time observation of the machines and processes, real time checking of poll results and the intense audits and post-election screening done both by states and experts from both parties.

If you can explain how all that is done, then you can argue hacking vote totals is possible.

[TheDebbieDee]

41. Very coy. The voting machines don't connect

to the internet but the tables that states use to tabulate the votes are on shared spreadsheets that are accessible on a state website that may or may not be password protected. That makes these tables hackable.

WHO ARE YOU?

[Lee-Lee]

43. And thats easily detected

When each machine is read at the county level the total for each machine is recorded. Then those are added for precincts totals are sent up into those tables you speak of.

But those individual results from machines and precincts are not only tabulated and recorded in the record, it is down in the presence of observes from both parties.

So, if as you claim the totals are being hacked at the state level that would be easily seen and detected. Because the totals reported by the state wouldn’t match the totals recorded by the counties.

All this is public record. Anyone can easily go in and get that data and make sure those totals were properly calculated.

You can do it right now, yourself, if you wish.

And the DNC and every state level party has people who are doing just that in near real-time on election night. They are doing the math based on county returns that the observers in the counties report to them to get faster results than waiting for the state to release their calculations. They know the numbers before the state releases in most cases because the county observers are telling them and they are doing the math. If the numbers they had didn’t match they wouldn’t just say “oh well, we thought we won but we lost”.

Do you actually think nobody would notice if the state reported totals and results that didn’t match what the individual counties sent up? Really?

Who am I? Someone who applies common sense and logic to these matters instead of making wild claims like vote totals being hacked at the state level and somehow nobody notices at all that the totals don’t match.

To claim they could hack tables at the state level to the point that race results flipped and nobody on or side noticed that the numbers didn’t add up from county totals is to say the DNC and every state level Democratic Party organization is totally incompetent.

[OhioBlue]

59. As Lee Lee said, each county self tabulates and then self reports totals.

When I watch local elections, I follow the local BOE websites that report out before the State or News outlets. Each BOE has people from both parties overseeing elections and counts, plus interested observers from campaigns and local media are present at BOEs to see totals. If local numbers didn't match what the State reported, we would know.

[Farmer-Rick]

52. Wire had an article that showed how to change vote tabulations through

Radio signals.

Then of course there are the vote counts that get sent back and forth from server to server like in the Ohio Chattanooga rigged count that stole the elections from Kerry.

The DNC doesn't really care about rigged elections because....the ones in charge got elected by this rigged system....why would they want to change it?

[Lee-Lee]

61. Got a link to that article?

As far as totals being sent from server to sever after polls close, as I said the vote counts are public record at every step. If precinct totals didn’t match county totals and county totals didn’t match state then people would notice. The idea that they are being changed and totals manipulated at higher levels during tabulation is sheer fantasy. Hell, if you think that is true all the totals down to precinct level are public record, you can check them now yourself.

[Farmer-Rick]

62. Not fantasy it happened with Kerry

So do you know where the vote count was changed as it bounced around RepubliCON servers? Check out Truthout they have a good article on how the 2004 vote was rigged.

And I'm on my tablet and it takes half an hour to post a link on this old thing. So just do a search on Wire.

Our voting system is seriously compromised even before the Russians got into the middle of it. That's why in our Democratic primary in TN for the senate, a KKK leader was voted in. And in North Carolina a totally unknown man by the name of Greene was voted in by supposed Dems.

For even more info on vote rigging check out Greg Palast.

[Lee-Lee]

69. I looked and found nothing like what you claimed existed

Specifically the evidence that voting machines could be hacked by radio.

So when you do get time a link would be greatly appreciated. Because an undetectable hack via radio would be a way that this could be done undetected, so actual evidence of the existence of such isna big deal that I would like to see.

As for the rest of your post, anything from Truthout has to be taken with a huge grain of salt. They take a conclusion they want, find a bunch of links that kind of support that predetermined conclusion and cite them as evidence, but when you actually look deeper for real sources instead of someone just gling real sources and telling you what you should think about them or what you should think they mean (what Truthout does, they don’t report any news they just recycle other people’s work with their spin that is usually less than accurate and down for the most sensational spin). So I went there and then from there to their cited sources, and not in one can I find an evidence of vote totals being changed. I saw where audits were done improperly, but nothing that points to actual votes being changed. They just make the huge leap from assuming because the audits were not done right then that must mean votes were hanged despite there being no evidence of it.

[Greybnk48]

42. Outagamie County, WI (my county) was highly suspect

and the clerk REFUSED a hand count. She only permitted them run the ballots through the same tabulators again. And they got the same results, with no forensic examination of the tabulators. So NO. Wisconsin does not prove the point that nothing shady was done. The recount was not totally legit here, it was theater in some areas, especially mine.

[uponit7771]

34. +1

[Laura PourMeADrink]

50. Yet our side plays along with that. I have heard dozens of Dems make that a qualifier

before they speak. To me, this is idiotic. Hell - say it ! Of course it influenced votes - can't quantify precisely - but you would be an idiot if you didn't put two and two together

[unblock]

5. if they changed votes at all, that's huge. but if they hillary had really won,

in many ways that's completely irrelevant.

as soon as they changed one vote, that puts it all into a fresh category of illegitimate election.
it doesn't really matter how many votes they altered. donnie's election becomes completely illegitimate (to the extent it isn't already).

remember that nixon was forced out even though he would have easily won re-election had watergate not happened. the fact that he committed crimes, electoral crimes and abused his office to cover them up, that was enough to make it impossible for him to be president.


similarly, donnie's whatever legitimacy donnie has is completely gone once the vote count is altered.

so it hardly matters if we find out that donnie would have actually lost. there is no procedure to undo the incorrect vote count. so while donnie should be gone either way, there's still no real way to get hillary in.

at least not without major cooperation from republican politicians, the kind that's completely unimaginable given the nature of the republican party today....

[BigmanPigman]

7. There are so many uncertainties since this is unprecedented.

Would there be a new election? When? There are 5,000 legal questions that would have to be decided and as you said, the GOP is not a fair body to make any decisions for the entire country. I guess the SCOTUS would step in and thanks to McConnell we know how that will turn out.

[unblock]

10. Theres no provision in the constitution or in law for a new election

True statesmen would find a way. Donnie gets impeached, pence nominated Hillary veep, congress confirms her, then pence gets the boot.

Unfortunately, there are nowhere near the statesmen needed for that in the Republican Party.

But the Supreme Court can’t do anything about it. There’s nothing they can hang their hat on.

The president was properly chosen by the electors and this was confirmed by the house. There’s no process for going back and changing the electors and redoing the electoral college.

[Eyeball_Kid]

8. There is no precedent for reacting to an

election that was hacked. Impeachment and conviction are the only legal recourses.

[Gabi Hayes]

9. It happened in Ohio

2004

https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x471341

Maybe not hacked, but:

https://www.commondreams.org/views06/0601-34.htm

........................


Or did it?

https://www.salon.com/2006/06/03/kennedy_39/

You could spend years on this.....I remember very well how things played out here 13 years ago

https://www.google.com/search?ei=BNucWtqLFsG_jwSVh5HIDg&q=Blackwell+Ohio+election+not+stolen+&oq=Blackwell+Ohio+election+not+stolen+&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.3..35i39.15440.21746..23433...0....285.2374.25j4j1..........1..mobile-gws-wiz-serp.......33i160j33i21.jmEdLMWwtLg%3D

BTW, media will ignore it the way they did in 2000 and 2004

[Igel]

16. Did they change the electoral college vote?

No. At best they changed state votes on who the electors were. Perhaps one or more of those could be unseated and the races rerun. (Remember: You'd have to not just find evidence of vote changing, but how they were changed and in what number. Finding evidence of vote changing by itself would be quite a Russian coup, because it would yield an incredible amount of chaos and confusion, goal 1.)

Note that those electors voted and are no longer in office.

[Demsrule86]

17. I don't know. As far as I can tell there is no constitutional remedy.

[tavernier]

18. It should be a simple case of theft.

Someone steals your car. After many months the authorities are able to show solid proof of the theft and the persons involved. The car is returned to you, and after a short trial, the thieves are found guilty and go to jail.

Someone steals your vote... it should be returned and the thieves punished. Done deal.

[pressbox69]

21. It doesn't matter

no matter how cancerous the slimeball is to our nation's well being, his mob will insist he remain in the White House. The only remedy is to vote republicans out at every opportunity. Until then don't let up.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. I've been asking this for a while. I don't think there can be any question but they did.

I think you'd have to be foolish to think they hacked emails but didn't change votes. The miraculous, and very thin, margins in three states gave us what we have. That wasn't without help.

So what if it is proved?

Then what?

What is the remedy?

[Lee-Lee]

27. How did they change votes?

See my post above.

How did they hack and change votes on machines not connected to the internet?

It’s easy to explain how email got hacked. Saying that because they did it they must have hacked votes is like saying because you picked up your toothbrush this morning you must have also picked up your car over your head. It is comparing one easy task to one that is virtually impossible.

[bluestarone]

36. I do agree 100% with you here! My only thought is yea we can't prove a thing BUT

I gotta say SOMETHING happened! We don't know and cannot prove a thing because we have NO PROCESS that we are ALL (both sides) willing to check the machines in states in question! I can't say one way or another BUT i would feel better if AT THE VERY LEAST check some machines? What would it take to do this?

[Lee-Lee]

38. Ask you local board of elections what their policies are

For security of machines, pre-Election testing to verify accuracy, post election audits.

Every state I am aware of has processes for auditing results, find out what yours are and how you can participate or observe.

Volunteer to work the elections. They always need volunteers. That way you can be there to observe the process and as a set of eyes to ensure tampering with machines is not happening. Most places will accept volunteers for setup and takedown as well.

Volunteer with your county to help audit results. Look at the books, it is all public record, to make sure the number of votes recorded in every polling place matches the number of people they physically verified and registered as coming in. Make sure the vote totals they tally and send up are accurate by doing the math yourself to check their work.

[bluestarone]

39. Well i have NO FEAR of the machines in ND! (RED STATE here)

I'm more concerned about the toss up states we are sure there was problems!!! THESE are the machines that need to be checked in my way of thinking! I bet 80% or more of the DU's here believe SOMETHING be it software or whatever happened to our election. Not proveable if not investigated. That's basically what i'm talking about. Somehow investigate these machines. Maybe no way to do it and THAT is the problem. I personally won't believe that there was no problem with them UNTIL this is investigated.

[triron]

56. Neither your premise nor your conclusion are completely true.

[Lee-Lee]

60. Care to explain that?

[rainin]

31. This is frustrating. Remove dem voters, change the outcome.

What is so hard about this? If I live in a swing state, and I am a registered Democrat and I go to the polls and find I'm not registered, then I can't vote. It just like purging except, no one knows it happened.

[poboy2]

35. yep.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

51. Exactly what Jeb did in Fla...and tried to do a second time ! keep it simple, like you

say rainin ! Worked the polls and unless you really really want to vote - it's a whole bunch of rigmarole when your name's not on the list. And lots of people just thing - well hell - I don't really care this much - back to work....

[triron]

57. Part of what happened.

[CanonRay]

37. I don't believe they will ever tell us

just like we'll never know the real truth on so many other things.

[Generic Brad]

45. Normally I would say it is pitchfork and torch time

Unfortunately, the white nationalist movement snatched up all the tiki torches earlier this year.

So...pitchfork time.

[triron]

54. Don't know about that but your premise is true.

They did.

[triron]

63. knr

[alarimer]

64. There isn't, but electoral integrity is important.

The Russians are the only ones tampering. Kris Kobach prevented more people from voting (35,000 in Kansas) because of his asinine requirement to prove citizenship.

[triron]

65. I found this report by Slate as referenced in this thread:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210323535

[triron]

67. knr

[McCamy Taylor]

68. Gore won Florida. NOthing changed.