"Ahhh.... MEN." (Bette Davis, All About Eve) And BOYS.

[Smarmie Doofus]

From a WH Study.


>>>>Component 2: The Emotional Health of our Sons
“Boys and girls handle stress differently. They need different approaches, different understanding and, quite often, different interventions.”
—Tracey Shors, Ph.D., Department of Psychology and Neuroscience, Rutgers University73

The Invisible Stepping-stones to our Sons’ Suicides

• The more boys advance through adolescence, the more their suicide rate increases relative to girls:’
• prior to age nine, boys and girls commit suicide at equal rates.
• from ages 10 to 14, boys’ rate is twice as high74;
• from 15 to 19, four times as high75; and
• from 20 to 24, more than five times as high. 76,77
The more a boy is exposed to the pressures of the male role, the more he is likely to commit suicide. What are these pressures? For starters…

Item. When a relationship is not going well, boys’ mental health is “more negatively affected” than girls’.78
Why are our sons’ broken hearts so invisible? We often assume that when it comes to girls, “boys just want sex.” The assumption masks boys’ vulnerability. And boys’ methods of expressing their vulnerability— such as drinking, drugs, or speeding—lead us to focus on the behavior boys express rather than the vulnerability they suppress.79>>>>>>

The rest: http://whitehouseboysmen.org/blog/the-proposal/the-emotional-health-of-our-sons

So... what's to be done?

[Zorra]

1. "So... what's to be done?"

IMO, we need to replace the entire political, social, and economic culture with a wider sense of human community.

This corporate consumer culture places far more value on profit and money than it does on the well being of human beings.

Children need to be loved, valued and respected, and teaching them personal and social awareness skills, such as self respect and respect for others, beginning at a very young age is very important.

Corporate consumer social shaping through TV marketing programming is not going to do this for kids.

Occupy.

[JDPriestly]

15. 1000

And why do men think they need to earn more money than their wives/girl friends?

Hey guys. If you love her and she loves you, go ahead and propose even if she does earn twice what you do.

Times have changed. Commit. Don't sell yourself short.

[Odin2005]

25. A-FUCKING-MEN!!!

[RadiationTherapy]

2. Coping Skills

Suppressing one's emotions and "soldiering on" aka "hanging on in quiet desperation, it's the English way" is not the same as coping and moving through. I would think that the masculine identities thrust upon our boys and men that exclude the expressions of emotion and the communication of troubles that are important to healing after a traumatic event is a big part of the problem here.

[Smarmie Doofus]

5. Me too.

>>>I would think that the masculine identities thrust upon our boys and men that exclude the expressions of emotion and the communication of troubles that are important to healing after a traumatic event is a big part of the problem here.>>>

But how much of this is hard-wired... and how much culturally/environmentally-induced?

If we descend from hunter/gatherers ( men are generally the hunters... and , not in significantly, the SOLDIERS.....; women the gatherers) don't the males HAVE to suppress emotion ( i.e. fear, esp.) to make the social arrangement ( division of labor according to gender lines) work?

Wouldn't women have looked for these qualities in a prospective mate?

Do they still?

[seabeyond]

10. all i know is raising two boys, i saw NO difference in emotional need. at about 12 i saw one son

Last edited Mon Jan 2, 2012, 03:17 PM - Edit history (1)

working on suppressing because that is what middle school peers enforce. because there are no conditioning going on in this house, he verbally expressed and discussed his whole trip conditioning himself to repress. rolling eyes, that didn't take a strong hold. my youngest just doesn't care what society tells him he is suppose to be and still has the friends who accept, allow and continue to be friends cause he is a laid back, loyal, fun friend.

i have brothers that i listen to tell me how unemotional they are. yet call me on a regular basis to discuss the emotional turmoil they are in.

i, on the other hand, the only female in this large group, that is not real into emotion. very pragmatic.

i just dont buy the "male hard wired" bullshit.

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. What a bunch of weirdos you guys are.

Just kidding. ( Where ARE those emoticons? Is this yet another DU 3 "improvement"?)

Your brothers are like most adult guys I know. Caught in a bind.

It would be nice if we could figure out a way to spare our next generation of that trap. You're doing it one at a time ( w. your sons). I'd like to speed up the process.... i.e. for the culture as a whole.

I'm not sure there's not a hard-wired element working here as well. I'd like to see what the conventional wisdom is among evolutionary biologists on that and..... among cultural anthropologists as well.

People who study this and only this.

I think the anthropological cross cultural material would be more enlightening: I don't mean "hard-wired" necessarily in the sense of brain physiology. I agree , any differences there are likely insignificant.

Although......

[seabeyond]

18. evolutionary biology has been hijacked for agenda.

i think we were well into doing just this in the 70's, 80's, perceiving men as people and not gender. i think there were some missteps and what it appears to me in the 90's a shift to make male dominant. in creating dominance, it goes against nature and not only is it not healthy for the one that is inferior, but also for the one that must dominate. you had a huge push with bushco time of repug for that type macho male and evolutionary biology creating a huge push that this is just nature. while a lot of the things they produced was guess presented as fact with the purpose of dominance.

that is what i saw and see.

[Smarmie Doofus]

33. +1. Not unlike the revisionism that undid the lessons learned from Viet Nam re. foreign policy.

A whole generation grew to adulthood stupefied... if you will. And not knowing it.

I see it too.

Sorry for the late reply.

[seabeyond]

34. you are right, though. that is exactly what has happened in both situations. agreed.

we grew up right in the time (hubby and i) where lesson was learned and seeing how it could be. so the repeating was very obvious. hubby and i both said, vietnam all over.

what is happening today is even worse. both genders buying into it and total lack of respect. cannot feel disrespect and expect there not to be consequences. action/reaction.

[Odin2005]

26. exactly, us guys are socialized to repress out emotions.

I was bullied a lot not only because of my nerdiness, but also because I was the shy, sensitive "tree hugger" kid.

[RadiationTherapy]

11. Women and Gender Studies have shown over and over that it is unrelated to our birth sex.

So, while people may be "hard wired" to various degrees in regards to emotional experience and expression, it has nothing to do with penis, testicles, ovaries, vaginas, or whatever plumbing we are born with. On top of that, our society conditions - severely in my opinion - emotional expression based on birth plumbing. This causes all sorts of issues.

[Smarmie Doofus]

16. So.... what would that portend for suicide rates , and other psychopathologies, in say.........

.... non-industrialized countries?

Wouldn't male/female rates be comparable?

And are they?

[RadiationTherapy]

23. I am not sure what you are asking.

In nations where emotional expression and the seeking of emotional support from others is encouraged, I imagine it would have more parity. But, really, obviously, I have no idea.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. How can women's studies class show that men are just like women?

It's like physics students asserting that embroidery is all physics.

The fact that teachers learn about boys in women's studies class is a big part of the problem.

[RadiationTherapy]

22. What it shows is there is no correlation between sex, gender, and sexual preference.

It further demonstrates that our ideas of "masculine" and "feminine" gender performances are completely subjective and enforced through various means such as media, education, churches, etc.

"How can women's studies class show that men are just like women?" is a meaningless question since no one in this thread has asserted such a thing. Also, there is no definitive characteristics of "man" and "woman" so I would not know how to address the question at all.

[maggiesfarmer]

28. WAIT. you're claiming you have sources that show

"there is no correlation between sex, gender, and sexual preference". I'd like to see this.

to be clear, you're claiming no correlation exists, as opposed to saying 'sex and gender are not the sole determining factor to sexual preference', is that correct?

[RadiationTherapy]

30. Sorry, I do not have sources for that.

I am paraphrasing semesters worth of lecture and discussion, which, understandably, may not be worth much to you. There are many schools of thought on how much, if any, correlation there is between, bio-sex, gender performance, and sexual orientation.

[Odin2005]

27. Exactly. I'm a guy, but my emotional experience and expression is quite "feminine".

It's one of the reasons most of my friends are women, I relate more to the opposite sex than I do to my own.

[RadiationTherapy]

29. Is it more accurate to say that you hang out with more emotionally communicative people?

Because I hope to do away with notions that there is a connection between bio-sex, gender performance, and sexual preferences. Although, I do understand that society "permits" women to be more emotionally communicative.

[seabeyond]

31. my sons heart was crushed at the end of the summer.

i watched him struggle silently as the months went by until the explosive wealth of emotion came pouring out. it broke my heart. but.... it allowed him to work to healing. the humiliation that he dared break down. i told him, dont you lessen this experience. this is a safe place. he is allowed. never forget that. he has been coming back to me over the months when he starts getting quiet again, and feeling depressed. talking on and on and on. and i listen. then he goes a longer period feeling better.

how dare people say, boys/men are not allowed to feel

i cannot imagine.

[Odin2005]

32. That could be.

[Brickbat]

3. Stop treating displays of emotion as weak, undesireable, shameful and worthy of mocking.

From birth on. That would help, I think.

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. You write the memo. I'll sign it.

Where the hell are the emoticons?

Ahhh... wtf:

smiley face

[seabeyond]

4. this is why i am throwing my tantrums daily on du. what can be done? don't raise our boys with

this societal conditioning of what a boy/man is suppose to be. it is wrong. it is not healthy. it does not allow a man to be his authentic self. i can think of no greater wrong to do to another human being, to not allow him to be his authentic self.

i was on a thread last night about prostitutes. i was told, AGAIN, boys/men only want sex. they have no emotional connection in sex. women ONLY have emotional connection in sex. maybe if a man is married a very long time in a relationship, then there MIGHT me something more in the sex.

bullshit.

we continually play these manipulative games with out kids to keep them well defined in a warped role of gender. both genders. adn it DAMAGES both genders.

this is one result. a higher rate of suicide with boys. gee.... not hard to figure out.

thanks for article. bookmarking to read more, later.

[stillwaiting]

6. Men are not socially and culturally encouraged to develop in ways that...

... could help them cope with many of life's struggles. Many men don't have social networks where they can reach out and seek the emotional help and support they need when they encounter many of these struggles. Internalizing all of the pain of life's challenges clearly can have devastating effects. The sense of isolation that must be felt by so many is frightening to consider.

The solution will have to come, if it ever does, on a cultural level. By changing cultural norms to allow men to be able to share their pain with others and be able to receive the emotional support that many need during times of distress, I believe these sobering statistics would improve for men and boys in relation to women and girls.

Sadly, we'll need a lot of good luck with that!!

[Smarmie Doofus]

9. That kind of cultural change is going to take forever.

>>>>By changing cultural norms to allow men to be able to share their pain with others and be able to receive the emotional support that many need during times of distress, I believe these sobering statistics would improve for men and boys in relation to women and girls. >>>>>>

I can remember this observation being made in connection to the feminist renaissance..... if you will ( And even if you won't, come to think of it.).... of circa 1970.

It appears that much has changed for American women... psychologically AND socioeconomically.... in the last 40 years but very little has changed for men in either realm.

I guess we're ALL 'stillwaiting'.

[bemildred]

8. Maybe pretending we all ought to be Rambo is part of it.

Or that any of us ought to be Rambo. Would you want to be Rambo? He doesn't look happy to me.

[datasuspect]

12. If you watch First Blood

John Rambo is actually a very sensitive, vulnerable man.

[Smarmie Doofus]

17. "He's a LOUSE."

>>>John Rambo is actually a very sensitive, vulnerable man. >>>

Sorry. Also from All About Eve.

I couldn't resist it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

19. Step one: do exactly as the link suggests, create a White House Council on Boys and Men.

Part two: single gender classrooms.

Boys are more likely to cooperate instead of competing with one another for the attention of the girls in the room.

It has been proven to improve education, and strongly correlated with improved emotional health.

In aggregate, men and boys are different than girls and women. Efforts to prove that they are not have done significant harm.

In the past, our dads learned from their dads what to do in the fields, or what to do as an apprentice. It was our dads’ job to do, not to feel. The messages to our dads from their dad, mom, church and community were both clear and unified. And for dads who could fit in, that enhanced emotional stability. Today, with so many boys raised in non-intact families, there is neither clarity nor unity; neither dad nor mentor. And that can create emotional insecurity.

This^

[RadiationTherapy]

24. So people who are born a certain way have to follow strict social norms?

Just a quick peek in the diaper and their role models and expectations of behavior are established?

I am of the opinion that young people, regardless of whom they are attracted to, would do well to learn how to cope with their sexuality. The ability to focus beyond the situations you describe is important.

[treestar]

21. that old fashioned conditioning

Needs to go. There are ways in which it is destructive to men.