For your family & friends who "don't talk politics"...

[OneGrassRoot]

Are You a Good German?

(Links to Medium: https://medium.com/@denapatrick/are-you-a-good-german-2894523a122e | posting more than 4 paragraphs, w/permission, but the full piece offers a more complete narrative...these are merely highlights)


It’s Germany, 1933, and you’re a white, heterosexual, non-Jewish, middle-class citizen with no physical disabilities.

You know a lot of other white, hetero, non-Jewish people ’cause you’ve lived there your whole life: former classmates, coworkers, neighbors, various friends and family.

They’re “good” people. They treat you and yours well and care about you. They’re hard workers, don’t get into trouble. You have shared memories, shared interests. You’ve always assumed you have shared values.

<snip>

Do you go along to get along?

Do you agree to just “not talk politics and we’ll be fine”?

Really? Is that really merely politics?

Is it “just politics” when innocent people are publicly humiliated, lose their jobs and are expelled from their homes, put in prisons or camps…eventually killed?

Is it “just politics” when citizens speak up and march in protest when their lives are threatened or the lives of their friends and loved ones, and then fellow citizens demonize them as being uninformed, unpatriotic, just wanting attention, being paid to protest, etc., doing anything to belittle them.

<snip>

This is real life. Not all views and opinions are valid and okay. The Nazi worldview is not acceptable. The KKK worldview is not acceptable. The ISIS worldview is not acceptable. People who embrace such views shouldn’t be condoned either, even if they’re otherwise “good” people. Rapists and serial killers and child molesters are often described as being “good” people in other aspects of their lives. Very few humans are pure good or pure evil; we’re all shades of gray.

But we each have to decide what we’ll tolerate, even from friends and loved ones when we recognize their views or behavior are causing harm — if not to us, to others — and decide how to deal with it.

At some point, going along becomes complicit. Silence becomes consent. You may have agreed not to talk about it, but you know how they really think and feel.

[dembotoz]

1. Being of German heritage this has bothered me for decades

I now sadly better understand.

[OneGrassRoot]

2. ...

[appalachiablue]

3. THE WHITE ROSE- German college student group recognized evil & resisted Nazis

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/revolt/whiterose.html

[OneGrassRoot]

4. There's a link to the leaflets!

I've had The White Rose Society in mind for years, profoundly grateful for their work, horrified by what happened to them.

I was excited to see a link to the leaflets in the link you provided. Thank you!

[Civic Justice]

5. THE RAVAGES OF "NOMADIC MAKE UP OF COMMUNITY" - Now a New Day Arrives

Last edited Tue Mar 27, 2018, 10:20 AM - Edit history (1)

As the great parliamentarian Edmund Burke said.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ,

(( All that is needed for the forces of evil to succeed is for enough good men to remain silent.))

Some people I know have no problem talking about the things of the world that hurt the world's society, others at time have far less to say.
I see people who often attend church on a weekly basis, and some with strong devotion within and unto the church, who say less, and some are vocal and some are with an activist mentality to do what they can to be a strong contributor to society.

I write a great deal and share those writing, some people respond and many may or may not.

In America, we have areas that suffer from various form of decay and some are fully dilapidated, and some areas are like expanding ghetto's. Then in some areas adjacent to the decay, there is new developments, some with gated communities, and other with pass through streets. What I've seen is a variety of things, where average lower income working communities where the kids are out among each other and mingling, interacting, playing community sports, and in some communities that are well kept, the kids are not out mingling, the yards are perfectly manicured, the streets are clean and the people may not even know who their neighbor is.

I've found that mixture in many places and it is certain to exist in many states. The imagery of the media is often a distortion of reality. In a great many average working class and working poor minority communities, people know each other, they wave when they pass those who may be out in the community, and some areas in very inner city areas that have met with challenges, they still have "front porch society" cultures. To passer-by's they make many assumptions about the people. Yet, in these communities that have "front porch societies" "people talk to each other", they talk life and they talk of historical things and they talk of political things. It retains some of the elements of the "Older Americana Community.
When family members lived in a senior community, it was always interesting to visit, the older people had no problem talking about God and Local Politics, and National Politics. They had a first message in what they say, it was always, "Thank The Lord", and in many other moments it conversation was followed up with God Bless You.

This is real life. It still exist in a great many minority communities. It is far more interactive among community member on a non formal everyday manner.

Conversely, I've seen:
In the more economic prospering areas, often unless there is a meeting of some sort, people don't talk about the politics, because society seems to have built up a mentality that does not discuss religion or politics. people may and may not wave as they pass by, and sadly in some that have transition of new owners or people who lease, many have no idea whom their neighbors are, and certainly not any awareness of who the people are in the next block.

In some areas, one can look and make concepts about community safety, by the view of senior citizens walking, or women walking for exercise and strolling through the community.

The same can be said of parks... the sad thing is some parks that are well kept, yet no one is there. Often there is some element in the community that has not made it a park friendly community.

THE RAVAGES OF "NOMADIC MAKE UP OF COMMUNITY"


We've become in someways "a Transition Community Nation", people are always moving from one location to the next within a few years, and the change up of communities that were once "homeowner communities" have now become "transitioned" with a nomadic elements, because of the volume of 'renters and leaser's who have no deep investment in the community, even some of the owners who rent and lease, and they may move more frequently. Even with some of the landlords who no longer live in the community, but keep their home as a rental or lease property, seem to have more and more who change their concept of pride about their property, and care only to keep it occupied to keep the rent checks coming, and the upkeep of the property declines, as if they have ignored the fact, its an investment they still own.

These things have an impact on whether people talk politics, and in some cases it has an impact of how people vote or do not vote, it certainly has a local impact on how people support the city council or do not support the city council.

The communities that have vested members who own homes and are stable long term residents, seem more likely to be involved in concerns about city politics, and how their council members perform for the city. I find it is less so, in "transitional communities", much like communities that have lots of "Apartments", when tenants change frequently.

The same seems to happen to Schools, when there is high transition, the kids may not get to grow up knowing the same group through their school years, this brings sometimes the "lack of unity within the student bonding".... some kids may find they have moved several times before they get to middle school. Some find even after middle school, they have moved several times.

Not only does these things bring a break down in what is "community cohesion", it has a vacuum in the political nature and mentality of community.

Much is to do with "job changes", "closing factories", "forced job transfers to maintain and income", as well as low paying jobs that force people to abandon homes. We no longer have a "stability" in society, yet we see corporations talking about "how many $$ billions they are worth, and how many $billions they profit" and how one company wants to gobble up another and the extended impact of this, has destabilized the American Concepts of Community. When that happens, the discussion of politics within a community takes a serious hit, became the transition it invokes within the community, brings and unfamiliarity among the inhabitants that make up community, thus making it challenging for people to talk about God or Politics.

The bigger the city and the more transitional moving people do... the less it is likely that a thread of communication exist to build commonest in discussing God and/or politics.

We need to become a society that is about PEOPLE before it is About the Concerns of Business and their Lobbyist Buying up the politicians, and pushing policies that in the big picture, bring Industry to rapidly come and go, and some simply leave, and in leaving they leave the "Business and Industrial Blight". Community Politic's Decay, and there is no unified force to help repair and rebuild.

American Business forgot its responsibility to the same community that helped it grow. The people provided labor and they became the consumers, and the business take the profits and focus solely on "how big they can become" rather than how stable they can be. The impacts of such ideology in business has had a devastating impact on communities, and creates a "Nomadic Community". Political awareness suffers and the discussion of politics in the local and even the county and state political concerns within conversations evaporate. The youth are in a perpetual displacement and find difficullty building lasting friendship and associate bonds.

"Nomadic Movements" become a big challenge. Then we have an element of "white flight" which changes the community, when people move and take business with them. Banks close, and Markets of Various sorts move and leave a trail of decimation. It affects not only the political climate, but the spirit of continuity in how of if God is discussed, and the children suffer, because of the continual "Nomadic movements". (white flight does not just happen when whites move because minorities move it, there is a white flight that happens when lower incomes whites work their way to afford to move into communities where middle class and somewhat higher middle class live).

In big cities sometimes Diversity is not so much the problem, it become to strengthen some communities, as I've seen in some locations. In other locations, people have opposition mentalities toward diversity, and "Nomadic Movements" accelerate when Diversity comes.

The challenges to communities - when people run from Diversity.

Many communities of the 1940's 1950's and 1960's - changed when people ran from Diversity.

The challenges to communities - when people run from Diversity.
I watched communities that white people up and left to move to "new developments" and those communities were then occupied by Mexican people, who came and bought the homes, they did much refurbishing to the community, established business and they patronized the business in their communities and over time, they became stable and then they became political, and in doing so, they voted in people from their community to administer the politics of the community. These communities went through challenges, as many of the 'once established white owned and run business packed up and left, the community went through the challenges to come to the realization they had to recreate those business, then the community prospered, this cycle has happen over and over and over across American, with Black people, Asian people and other Ethnic people having to face the same challenge and meet the same needs to rebuild, due to the exodus of the existing business that use to be in the community. Sadly, some cities even lost their center, due to the Suburban Sprawl, and when cities loose their center, it weakens the city as a whole, and then only pockets of prospering community are sparsely spread about the area and the heartbeat of the city weakens.

Now, the YOUNGER GENERATION no longer want to Run From Diversity, Nor will they give up communities to the advances of Gentrification which comes and prices them out. They embrace the Diversity and Appreciate the Culture that Diversity Enhances for the Community. These are the people who will rebuild the Political Conversations within Communities and they will rebuild the sense of Spiritual Essences in these communities. It's happening across America, but it does not get much publicity. Young people have come to appreciate the things they learn from a variety of cultures within a community, they find the enrichment they get from and through the diversity, and together they are forging a new political paradigm, of "inclusiveness'. It will over time wipe away the laws of the Jim Crow infections, and they will move across this nation with a political awareness that rewrites the laws to meet with the Constitution and push on to rebuild America to be what the Declaration of Independence Envisioned.

Today, the Marches people engage are Made Up of Diversity - And they March for the Lives and Betterment in Society For ALL PEOPLE.

It has taken a lot to move us from a segregated society built upon ever bias, prejudice and bigoted infection into becoming one that has respect and appreciation for the immense values which Diversity brings, as being the forces which bring a Unified Respect for the Lives of "ALL" People. They will push the Politics of the Future to Become about and for "All The People"

Young people are no longer willing to be silent. Musicians and Rappers have been pushing the voice for Political unity and Human Regard for many decades, not just the new rappers of this decades, but one can go back to the era of James Brown, The Beatles, Bob Dylan, Gil Scott Heron, and Marvin Gaye, Bruce Springsteen, Michael Jackson and Others who have made songs push the conscience of people to think about Society and the Need to Make Civil Liberties Universal and Civility A Bonding Experience among All People.
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/music-that-has-changed-the-world/

Quoted Text:
"Many historians have used song lyrics to help understand the culture and consciousness of the people who sang and listened to them. Especially when considering people who left few written accounts of their lives, song lyrics can give important clues about what people thought and felt, their daily struggles, and their dreams about the future."
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/mse/songs/question5.html

[OneGrassRoot]

6. Thank you, Civic Justice

That was a lot of thoughtful information to share, and I greatly appreciate you doing so.

While I understand the many reasons behind coworkers, neighbors, and others not having the necessary difficult conversations -- many of which you've listed here -- those reasons don't apply to family members who tend to agree not to talk "politics" (religion is also implied or stated explicitly). Basically, it's agreed that nothing deeply meaningful is to be discussed. Heck, people even get into arguments about sports and music and more mundane aspects of life, I figure they might as well talk about the important stuff too, even if conflict arises.

[Civic Justice]

7. "Exploring Reasoning".....

Thank you, I know I spoke on the broader element of society, but I will speak on the "family".

Even thought people grow up in the same house, by the same parental values, the uniqueness of "individualism" can play a big role and part. It has a lot to do with many things, Inclusively of what is the tonality and openess of subject matter within the home, and within the family network...
In families that speak of both religion and politics as topics within the grooming years of siblings, it makes it easier to have such conversation as well as spirited debates without destroying family relations within the home.

Example: President John F. Kennedy's Family - Politic's was part of the narrative in their home, as well as social and civic matters, business matters and such things. In that example, they had those conversation across the extent of their out of house independent family members, therefore these discussions became part of their lives.

In many working class families, a great many topic are not put on the table, nor explored, and family members develop their concepts with their individual peer groups and with the influences they gather from interacting with a mixture of peers, that may be part of other peer groups.

When family members grow over the years and various subject matter is not put to commonality within the home, not only does it create a situation where 'talk is with many challenges", in some "arguments escalate" and people can become estranged from each other, based on the views.
Another matter that happens when there is not "Open Discussion where Opinions Are Allowed", voices become repressed, suppressed and even distressed and this can open the door to a great deal of "competitiveness" to be heard, and when the competitiveness is with the wrong tonality, it can lead into contemptuous engagements, that lead people to 'take subjects off the table'.

I engaged some friends who were a mixtures of associates of a friend, many I did not know as well as my friend knew them, and we started to talk about "Church"... I made a statement that, I was not an advocate of "Pastors Anniversary", as in the church raising up volumes of money to give to the pastor".... I stated that, I grew up understanding that many who claimed to be pastors, did so because they felt a calling. I further said, each Sunday, the pastor is compensated.

Well, one can imagine this did not set well with some who were self invested in contributing to Pastors Anniversary. It was easy to see the uneasiness this conversation aroused. We continued the interactions, during the course, some came to speak that they participated, as a means to avoid conflict, some to avoid feeling ostracized by others in the church, and a variety of motivations as to why they participate. I interjected, the element of "being a cheerful giver"... as well as within the Church, the dealing with "truth's" and the element of "heart honesty". That if one is giving for reasons to avoid conflict, or avoid feeling of being ostracized, then one may inquire if this is upholding the values of Gods teaching? Also, the conversation involved people being "measured" by "how much they give to the Pastors Anniversary". Such conversations are very challenging for people within a great many Church Organizations, and the many individualized Church Congregations.

They avoid this nature of inquiry and instead follow the process of tradition without discussion or inquiry as to the nature and principles that created the programming of "Pastors Anniversary".

I spoke with others about another matter of Church formatting. Which addressed the point that Jesus said, come as your are !!! So, I asked, if a person who did not have a fancy set of clothing came in and 'sat on the front row", what do you think will happen? We know the answer is common that the Usher's will lead them to other seats, because the hierarchy of front row sitter's if often related to the value and volume of their monetary contribution to the church. in some cases it is related equally so to the long term members of the church. this is absurdly similar to implying who is the greatest among the congregation.
.... again... the Bible speaks:
Luke 9:46 - Luke 9:48

As to Religion, consider the many Denomination and the Many, Many variations within each Denomination. One can even look at the same variable regarding Islam, one group follows based on who "was the descendant of Mohammed, and another group stand with challenge as to who should be head that is not necessarily a descendant of Mohammed. This is a conflict that will never find resolution, because the divisiveness is more about "A Man", than about God. From that such things many dogma's are put forth... it becomes confounding.

Mankind should be able to speak about Faith and Religiousness, without the need to decry other man. IF the premise is about a "Singular God". But, there again, is the nature of "Congregations" and the ungodly competitiveness among Denominational Congregations as well as within the make of Intra-Denominational factions.

Thus so, within Families as well as among Friends, there are those who engage subjects of Religion and Politics, and there are those who aspire to it being a taboo subject.

I don't think there is a conclusive answer of one size fits all. Because people are very sensitive when it comes to their Faith.

I can post a link: https://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10416910
Read the link at the bottom discussing people faith within the Evangelical organization.
.... it references a mixture of faith and politics..... >
"Falwell is explicitly and proudly saying that white evangelicals voted for Trump not in spite of his racist and xenophobic rhetoric, but because of it."

The issue here is not Christians voting differently from each other. That is normal and likely healthy given the independence that people of faith should show over partisan loyalties. This is about the moral hypocrisy of white American evangelical religious right leaders like Jerry Falwell, Jr. causing a crisis in the church, dividing American Christians on racial lines, and astonishing the worldwide body of Christ — the international majority of evangelical Christians who are people of color — and whose leaders keep asking many of us what in the world is going on with white American evangelicals.

That number, 81 percent, has become an international symbol that tragically now represents what white American evangelicalism stands for. It dramatically and painfully symbolizes the white ethno-nationalism that Donald Trump appeals to and continues to draw support from among white American evangelicals. It is the most revealing and hurtful metric of what I will call the racial idolatry of white American evangelical Christianity, which clearly excludes American evangelicals of color and the global majority of evangelicals. The 81 percent number ultimately signifies a betrayal of the body of Christ — which is the most racially inclusive and diverse community in the world today.

The elements of the subject you are addressing covers a vast amount of history, which includes how society became one that adopted the premise of "not discussing religion and politics".... Even back to the history of religious conflicts. Even when considering the modern day family, the Husband came from one home and its belief, and the Wife came from one home and its beliefs, and often times people did not divulge deeply into discussing their belief... the avoided the subject's details and some did not develop a 'communication framework in the family" for these discussions to be open topic.

One can go back within the history in and of America, consider what impacts the Victorian Age had upon the minds of those who came to America, as well as how various Missionaries spread about the world in aim to convert people. And one can look into the convoluted systems that infected America, when settlers first arrived, the conflict and labeling of Indian's as Savage, to the point of disregard for their Spiritual Beliefs, to the element of encroachment upon lands, and treaties established and broken, and the many acts of promoting the aims to change the belief systems of the Indians, to accept the belief system of Europeans.
This same process was engaged in Africa, when

Lord Macaulay's address to the British Parliament on 2nd Feb 1835.

I have traveled across the length and breath of Africa and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief, such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage and therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the African's think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self-esteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation."

Many say, this excerpt is not true. True or Untrue - Consider the premise of its aimed methodology, and consider that the slaves were "stripped of their culture, their history, their communication, religion, language and everything"... BUT... in all that stripping, Nothing has broken the esteem of Black people to be free, and to become whom they want to be, not what others continue to try and make them become.

When societies have used such techniques for Centuries past, and decades beyond. It made a practice to deny the discussion, because through discussion people can find truths, and they can find the motives behind the distortions and depredations. If one note, During the Slave Trade, the slaver's forbid people from speaking their language, denied people the ability to read, and put constraints upon their ability to communicate. During such time, it was the White Ideology that was "dictated to the people" from a book they could not read. Thus so, much of the word was "TWISTED" AND MALICIOUSLY USED to feed the people Untruthful Words that had been convoluted to try and justify their system of slavery, which was rooted in their own Avarice, driven by the greed, the vain pridefulness, and sloth which made purposeful intent to not do what what they know was spiritually and of God essence truth. During the period, when black men learned to read during slavery and could preach to the people, he was "monitored" to ensure he would not address the passages that speak of the truths of slavery's vile.
This was not only enacted upon black people, we had an early America with a generally Uneducated Population, which gained their initial education via Churches and Churchs being the foundation of the American Schools... promoted a message that did not wholly adress the open flow Truths of Gods Words, but shaped it for Denominational and Intra-Denominational methodology which endeared man, to "Men", before God. As is today, people will speak about their Pastors as if to place them before God, when they are only "deliverer's of the word'. Therefore, it is up to each person, to read and learn of God and to pursue like minded people who are willing to discuss the "Truths" and not submit themselves to the contortions of man. One too can ask the questions... "why were various books left out of the printed and promoted Bible" ?

It's a very big subject.

As to politic's in American, likewise so... When American indulged to become the nation that it is, what were the creation of laws and what influences impacted the laws that resulted in the disenfranchisement of the Indians, and then what perversions of the laws, were enacted for this nations to find means to make Slavery a lawful practices in American. When its own Declaration of Independence had not place are structure designed within it to suggest Slavery or Involuntary Servititude. Nor was such within the United States Constitution.

America was in many parts still with a constrained level of education and in some parts still to this day. We have history books that are driven by inaccuracies by a system that influenced the writers of history to write versions that promoted the concept of white superiority... When true fact is America was built and all advancements in America were always driven by a Multicultural Make Up of People from Around the World.

This young Generation is now -ASKING QUESTIONS - They no longer are willing to accept the old narrative based on assumptions that it is just how it is, they are INQUIRING as to how did it become how it is. They are questioning the left out elements of history and the white washed areas of history, as well as the confabulated tales and finding the fallacies embedded within them. These things indicate "change"...and promote learning, and people are fearful of change, and apprehensive of investing the things they think they know, to learn the truths that may present much different realism's to what they thought they knew.

People are afraid of the unknown and many are afraid to learn truths that may show them that the placement of various values perspectives were done with insufficient and something flawed information.

[OneGrassRoot]

8. Excellent...thank you again!

So much for me to contemplate and explore further.

Yes to everything you said, especially about the kids ASKING QUESTIONS. That's a key point.

Thank you, Civic Justice. Take care.