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Mortos

(2,390 posts)
Wed Mar 28, 2018, 10:02 AM Mar 2018

1st Amendment v 2nd Amendment

First Amendment v Second Amendment

During the March for Our Lives rallies, there were counter protesters across the United States, mostly men wearing camouflage jackets to cover their concealed carry weapons, who held signs with variants of this: "Without the 2nd Amendment, there would be no 1st Amendment."

History and I beg to differ.

First things first. I hate to get petty and literal (literally) but the founding fathers wrote the bill of rights and their very first, and by way of rank, most important right was the ability of a free people to speak their minds, organize, meetup, march, criticize and ask their elected representatives for change. It also forbade government from establishing a national religion and gave "Fake News" the right to report on affairs with porn stars, bribes, abuses of power, and illegal in kind campaign contributions, but I digress.

Here is the first amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Theses rights of expression and assembly were on full display across our country on March 24, 2018 as over a million children, men and women, joined the March for Our Lives movement across the world. It was not a well regulated militia that caused these events to take place, it was a well organized group of young people who have grown tired of being victims of cowards with guns who are armed with weapons of war by cowards at our capitols, afraid to do anything that would anger their NRA benefactors. It was not the second amendment on display and fostering change, but the first.

If we look back at United States history, we see the same pattern repeated over and over again. In the late 1800's to early 1900's, women in America met, organized and protested in order to gain the right to vote. They utilized their first amendment rights to redress their grievances and ultimately won the right to vote with the passage of the 19th amendment in 1919. They were not a well armed militia. They were a well organized group who used civil disobedience and press coverage of their plight to achieve their goals, not an AK47.

In the 1960's, civil rights leaders adopting the non-violent civil disobedience of India's Mahatma Gandhi, began a campaign to grant black Americans civil rights. Under the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr., hundreds of thousands marched and protested against immoral laws that subjugated an entire race. This national, first amendment based movement, eventually resulted in the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It was non-violent civil disobedience and press coverage of human rights violations and violence towards peaceful protesters that changed a domineering government, not an AR15

Women fought for rights over their bodies, their finances, their career options and reproductive autonomy in the 1960's and 70's resulting in the passage of the Equal Rights Amendment in 1972 and the. Supreme Court Decision, Roe v Wade, in 1973. The women and men in this movement used their rights under the first amendment to achieve their goals and aims, not a ArmaLite rifle.

The LGBTQ community, long oppressed, physically and mentally tortured, with few rights and many criminalizing legal barriers put in place by an entrenched homophobic system, began their revolution with a riot. The Stonewall Uprising in New York, on June 28, 1969 began with a fed up community who were doing nothing more than assembling and living their lives, albeit in violation of unconstitutional laws, grew tired of being abused and victimized and decided to fight back. First with purses and pennies and then with bottles and bricks. This catalyst to the gay rights movement, began violently but only in response to centuries of violence directed at the gay community and quickly became nonviolent. The LGBTQ community adopted the same civil disobedience that many oppressed minorities had adopted before them. They utilized court action over physical action and eventually and slowly still have achieved some parity and equality in our country. On June 26, 2015, the Supreme Court of the United States decided in the landmark civil rights case, Obergefell v Hodges that gay people had the Constitutional right to marry. The LGBTQ community used free speech, pride parades, and petitions to the courts to achieve their goals, not Bushmasters and bump stocks.

The power of the first amendment has been used time and time again by marginalized people being abused and dominated by a tyrannical government in the 250 year history of our country. People who are wronged have utilized the right to assemble, address the government for redress of grievances, speak freely and be documented and highlighted by a free and truthful press to change our country for the better, not with violence and weaponry, but with words and non peaceful action.

Some may say our armed forces and trillion dollar military industrial complex protect our standing and rights as Americans but, in doing so, you would A: Ignore the arguments of the founding fathers and Anti-Federalists who lobbied for the bill of rights and against a standing nationally funded military and, B: Contradict your own arguments for arming poorly organized and regulated civilian militias and individuals with weapons to defend against tyranny or an infinitely superior armed and better regulated federal militia. One negates the other.

I challenge anyone to come up with similar landmark progressive nationwide changes and defense of civil rights brought about by citizen militias with semi-automatic weapons. The second amendment has not brought about our ability to express our first amendment rights, rather the opposite is true. The first amendment has been used to consistently, bravely, and unflinchingly protect, restore, and continuously right wrongs of an overreaching government and representatives who used their power to strip away liberty. It has been used to restore the dignity and legal standing of oppressed and marginalized people.

To paraphrase Margaret Mead, never doubt that a small well organized group of unarmed and victimized people of color, women, LGBTQ folks, high school kids and parents of murdered children can change our world; indeed, they are the only thing that ever has.

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central scrutinizer

(11,648 posts)
2. Indeed, the second amendment zealots are trying to stifle the first amendment
Wed Mar 28, 2018, 11:45 AM
Mar 2018

Who knows how many are afraid to raise their voices when confronted with open carry, stand your ground, confrontational jerks. You never know how close to the edge some of them may be. Heavily armed cowards are dangerous. Which makes the bravery of the kids even more exemplary.

sl8

(13,768 posts)
3. As long as we're delving into the petty and literal ...
Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:13 PM
Mar 2018
"... the founding fathers wrote the bill of rights and their very first, and by way of rank, most important right was the ability of a free people to speak their minds, organize, meetup, march, criticize and ask their elected representatives for change. It also forbade government from establishing a national religion and gave "Fake News" the right to report on affairs with porn stars, bribes, abuses of power, and illegal in kind campaign contributions, but I digress. "


That wasn't the first amendment proposed by Madison and approved by Congress, this was:

... After the first enumeration required by the first article of the Constitution, there shall be one Representative for every thirty thousand, until the number shall amount to one hundred, after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall be not less than one hundred Representatives, nor less than one Representative for every forty thousand persons, until the number of Representatives shall amount to two hundred; after which the proportion shall be so regulated by Congress, that there shall not be less than two hundred Representatives, nor more than one Representative for every fifty thousand persons.


Link to image:
https://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsj&fileName=001/llsj001.db&recNum=93

Of course, the first two proposed amendments weren't ratified by the States, but the amendment we know know as the first was originally the third.



Mortos

(2,390 posts)
4. Where did the regulated militia's right to bear arms place in your rebuttal information?
Wed Mar 28, 2018, 12:59 PM
Mar 2018

And I believe we refer to and rely on the ratified version of the Constitution, not the hypothetical whatabout version.

And, really, this is your rebuttal to my argument? That the Amendments were ordered differently in the proposed bill of rights?

sl8

(13,768 posts)
5. Why do you think I was trying to rebut anything you said about militias?
Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:21 PM
Mar 2018

I wasn't.

The only part of your post I was addressing was the part I quoted. You suggested that the founding fathers placed the amendment regarding freedom of speech/assembly/religion first because it was the most important. Well, they didn't place it first, they placed it third. It ended up first.

Of course, you could argue that the various state legislatures were just as much founding fathers as Madison and the Congress. Even so, the States didn't determine the order of the amendments, Madison & Congress did.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
7. I call things that don't validate my bias 'petty' as well.
Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:41 PM
Mar 2018

I call things that don't validate my bias 'petty' as well.

And like you, I provide no evidence at all of the alleged 'pettiness.'

Mortos

(2,390 posts)
6. I inferred by your use of "petty and literal" in reference to my writing
Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:34 PM
Mar 2018

before bringing up your criticism that you were attempting to minimize my words by completely missing the point of the post or worse using a tried and true tactic of gun humpers of changing the subject or criticizing some tiny detail someone you disagree with got wrong. If this was not your intent, and you don't hump guns, please accept my apology.

sl8

(13,768 posts)
8. I think this is a reply to me.
Wed Mar 28, 2018, 01:44 PM
Mar 2018

If so, no, I was not trying to minimize your post by including "petty and literal" in my reply.

I included it as a sort of faux excuse for my nitpicking reply. That is, if you could write a "petty and literal" OP, that gave me cover to write a "petty and literal" reply.

Honestly, I don't think either the OP or my response was "petty and literal".

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