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Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:56 AM

This is the third time dirty tricks have cost us the loss

of a duly elected President.

Al Gore was the first when the recount of the Florida votes was stopped and subsequently the Supreme Court upheld that action and literally selected Bush. That day we stopped being a Constitutional Democracy, but people preferred to pretend it didnít happen. Two of our three branches of government failed as Congress did nothing, and the Judiciary took on powers itís never been given, and the selected winner took up the reins of our third branch.

John Kerry was the second when every dirty trick in the book was used to defame him and no one thought it of importance to set the record straight. People who had seen what happened when Bush was selected had long since decided the selection was OK. Things had happened with the Bush administration that could never be reversed. We had all moved on to the wars. That time it was the media who failed us as well as every branch of government. We, the American people as aa body, believed that the Bush administration would actually have clean voting that time even though they didnít the first time. And so we got Bush again to eventually explode our economy too.

Hillary Clinton is the third. This time it was the combined failure of the above mentioned perpetrators and the added brazen criminality of the Trump/Russia criminal enterprise to gain control of the American government for personal political gain, both for raw power itself and for lucrative gain. Trump sucked the air out of the country and may have blown the last flicker of life out of our shredded Constitution. Congress has long since abdicated all power and lays supine awaiting further instruction. The Judiciary did nothing. Our representatives passed themselves guaranteed untold future wealth and have decided to quit their jobs and go home. Mission accomplished.

As a country calling itself, correctly or not, the United States of America and calling ourselves a Democratically run Constitution we will continue to live our daily lives like thatís true, and for those of us who are white and male it may even feel that way for a while.

But if we actually face the above facts and do something about it there still may be a window of opportunity, not to reverse what has happened since 2000 because thatís water under the bridge and a dark part of our history but to restore Democracy and our Constitution. We must all vote this year, like it were possibly the last time it really counts.

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Reply This is the third time dirty tricks have cost us the loss (Original post)
lunatica Monday OP
Eliot Rosewater Monday #1
unblock Monday #4
lunatica Monday #5
dchill Monday #6
wysimdnwyg Monday #22
trc Monday #2
Sherman A1 Monday #3
lunatica Monday #8
trc Monday #15
lunatica Monday #16
rwsanders Monday #60
lunatica Monday #61
mahina Monday #17
groundloop Monday #31
Still In Wisconsin Monday #49
trc Monday #52
Still In Wisconsin Monday #59
Initech Monday #7
lunatica Monday #10
Eliot Rosewater Monday #24
lunatica Monday #32
modrepub Monday #9
lunatica Monday #12
ProfessorGAC Monday #39
Nitram Monday #11
Freddie Monday #13
planetc Monday #44
mfcorey1 Monday #14
lunatica Monday #18
OMGWTF Monday #19
lunatica Monday #23
certainot Monday #20
Texin Monday #21
lunatica Monday #27
rainy Monday #25
RandomAccess Monday #26
lunatica Monday #29
BadgerMom Monday #28
Eliot Rosewater Monday #30
BadgerMom Monday #41
lunatica Monday #33
Anon-C Monday #34
gopiscrap Monday #35
FailureToCommunicate Monday #36
Demsrule86 Monday #37
Loubee Monday #38
lunatica Monday #40
Jakes Progress Monday #46
lunatica Monday #53
lunamagica Monday #42
lunatica Monday #43
Jakes Progress Monday #45
lunatica Monday #55
enid602 Monday #47
Amaryllis Monday #48
lunatica Monday #50
Amaryllis Monday #51
Demsrule86 Monday #56
rurallib Monday #54
Honeycombe8 Monday #57
TheSmarterDog Monday #58
Hassler Tuesday #62
garybeck Tuesday #63
Rene Tuesday #64
AllaN01Bear Tuesday #65
Orangeutan Tuesday #66
Perseus Tuesday #67
lunatica Tuesday #68

Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:57 AM

1. GOP cant win the presidency without stealing it, likely havent "won" since 1968.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:04 PM

4. we might have to give them 1984.

in isolation i think they "won" that election...

... though of course reagan wouldn't have been running as an incumbent had it not been for them bribing iran in 1980 to keep americans hostage until it suited their campaign.

yes, people focus on the "trading arms" part, trying to argue that it was merely a policy decision.


but apart from all else, they paid iranians to refuse to release american hostages until after the election and even after reagan was inaugurated.

they paid foreign criminals to extend a kidnapping of americans.

they explicitly sponsored an overtly criminal act against americans.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:04 PM

5. I agree

and Obama got elected twice because we voted like never before. We can do it again, but we have to restore the Constitution too.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:05 PM

6. 1968 is arguable.

So is 1980.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:23 PM

22. I would argue '68 was stolen as well

Perhaps not directly (although the Vietnamese discussions present a possibility there), but even if Nixon and his cohorts did not directly order it, the RFK assassination almost certainly changed the result. Kennedy would very likely have beaten Nixon had it come down to it, so Nixon's win was tainted, regardless of any possible conspiracy around Kennedy's murder.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:01 PM

2. There were others

Nixon promised the South Vietnamese government that if they slowed the peace talks in 1968 until after the election he would give them money. Reagan made a deal with the Iranians promising weapons parts and arms if they would not release the hostages until after the election.

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Response to trc (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:03 PM

3. Precisely

politics is a dirty game and is not likely to get better in the foreseeable future.

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Response to trc (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:10 PM

8. Were those deals considered violations of the Constitution?

If they were then they indeed were criminal acts.

My question is sincere. They were definitely dirty though.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #8)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:37 PM

15. President Johnson called Nixon's actions treason

And Reagan's actions were part of the Iran/Contra illegal activity throughout his presidency. Yes, both were working with a foreign power to effect the outcome of a US election. Treason. Lessons in Republican electioneering taken to heart by the current "president".

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Response to trc (Reply #15)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:40 PM

16. Thanks for the explanation.

Youíve enlightened me!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:08 PM

60. It goes even further than that...

Nixon promised them money and Vietnam expected that to release the POW's that they were holding (about 1750). When Nixon failed to come through (he knew congress would never authorize the money), they held the POW's.
https://www.thenation.com/article/why-has-john-mccain-blocked-info-mias/
It makes me sick to see how many Vietnam vets support the Republicans.

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Response to rwsanders (Reply #60)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 11:34 PM

61. That is horrible!

Itís disgusting. Nixon is even worse than most people think.

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Response to trc (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:42 PM

17. ++++

^^^^^^^

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Response to trc (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:38 PM

31. I'm glad you mentioned Reagan...... people often forget that tidbit about Saint Ronnie

Ronnie RayGuns ran an extremely corrupt White House, the total number of prosecutions against members of his staff is one of the highest in history.

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Response to trc (Reply #2)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:17 PM

49. So the last legitimately elected Republican was who... Bush 41 I guess?

Or can we blame that one on the "Dukakis in a Tank" video?

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Response to Still In Wisconsin (Reply #49)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:33 PM

52. yep, but even in that election there were shenanigans...

remember this?

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Response to trc (Reply #52)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 09:31 PM

59. Now I do. One of the most blatant appeals to collective racism ever.


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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:06 PM

7. Just remember - every single network called Florida for Gore but one.

And guess which one that was?

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Response to Initech (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:14 PM

10. My recollection is similar, but they backed off quickly

Last edited Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:17 PM - Edit history (2)

As soon as Bush claimed it wasnít possible for him to lose Florida because Jeb had quaranteed he would win it.

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Response to Initech (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:26 PM

24. The 90,000 voters who happened to be black who were targeted to not vote

by Katherine Harris didnt help either.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #24)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:39 PM

32. Ah yes. I forgot about her

Maybe because the Bush family threw her away so fast. We hardly got to know her.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:13 PM

9. Electoral College

We need to get rid of that thing. The Presidency should be decided by a simple majority of all eligible US citizens (I'm including all territories and overseas military bases). Every other office in this country is decided by a majority vote, why do we should the Presidency be any different. And if the small states complain then tell them they still have the Senate.

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Response to modrepub (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:16 PM

12. Let the small states complain all they want

Their individual vote is as powerful as the vote in any large state.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #12)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:16 PM

39. I'm With You

It's an anachronism. Besides, the first 3 words of the Constitution are "we the people". The EC makes territory more important than the citizens.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:15 PM

11. That's right.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:19 PM

13. 2004

A couple more votes in Ohio and we would have won the EC but not the popular vote. Would have been delicious.

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Response to Freddie (Reply #13)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 03:30 PM

44. The 2004 Ohio vote was audited, and Kerry seems to have won. But that was probably the only state

that was audited, which means that we cannot be sure how the popular vote went, either. Many of our state elections cannot be audited.

This means that we can have no confidence in the announced winners of many state elections, and thus, no idea which of two candidates for an open seat won. Perhaps the Republicans haven't controlled anything except the balloting process for a very long time.

To repeat: we have no way of knowing who won any given election unless we can audit it, and we can only audit the ones using paper ballots, hand counted. The electoral process is rather like ordering a sweater we liked online, in green, and getting shipped a brown one in the wrong size, and then being told to shut up and like it.

Unless the people control the means by which the vote is collected and counted, it won't matter how many Democrats turn out, because the people who control the balloting will announce the results. We cannot audit the announced results. Many of us have no confidence left in the announced results of any state or national election unless the ballot process is a) paper ballots, b) hand counted.

The American people have been ill served especially by the press, who keep assuring us, even up to election night in 2016, that it's impossible to steal an American election. It's not impossible; it has certainly been done; all we lack are the specific numbers. As you recall, the press in 2015 and 2016 assured us, ad nauseam, that Mr. Trump's sexism was significant (true) and Mrs. Clinton's email server was important (false). None of them had more than a few carefully crafted words to say about the safety of that election, and we were assured that tampering with electronic voting machines was "unlikely." Bullfeathers.

We're neither a republic nor a democracy at the moment. We're a captive population. To the New York Times and the Washington Post I say: do your jobs. Tell us how safe our national and state elections are, and then face the large quantity of feathers that will be blown in your faces by outraged but uninformed ninnies. Your newspapers may close, but you will have gone down fighting.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:22 PM

14. So true!!!!

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 12:58 PM

18. Our future tax dollars could be going to Putin

We would pay for our own demise and for Russiaís rise to untold power. That thought is sickening.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:20 PM

19. This Sh!t has Also Cost the Dems THREE SCOTUS Seats!

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Response to OMGWTF (Reply #19)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:25 PM

23. Yes. All part of the consequences and collateral damage

Welcome to DU. These are some of the unintended, or perhaps intended outcomes. No one can claim the Republicans arenít experts at taking advantage of every opportunity they get, be it legal or illegal.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:22 PM

20. the way these events are interpreted and spun so nothing gets done and it gets worse is directly

related to the incredible idiocy of dems/liberals/the left in continuing to ignore the talk radio propaganda monopoly

from swiftboating, making bush, palin, trump even 'acceptable', trashing anita hill to get thomas in to selling voter fraud fraud to pass voter suppression to benghazi to providing most of the material for russian trolling.

ignoring it has been the biggest political fuck up in history and it continues today.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:23 PM

21. Well, the POTUS can't gut the government without a majority in Congress.

The loss of both houses in D.C. has been the single most damaging to the country long-term. It's of far greater consequence to democracy, as well as the repetitive loss of state and local seats in so many states across the country. With rethugs in control of state and local legislative bodies, they've been able to eviscerate laws governing fair play, public schools, election processes through gerrymandering and other mechanisms in order to seize control of those bodies and ensure a permanent rethuglican stranglehold.

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Response to Texin (Reply #21)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:33 PM

27. I think all you say is just the natural fallout of the stolen elections

These things wouldnít happen if our Constitution had been defended in the first place. But once the door to legalized crime has been opened anything is OK.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:28 PM

25. Its solely because of donor money period

Republicans easily get funding for elections because they share the same corrupt values, lie, cheat steal. Democrats just have to not stir the pot so remain silent even when they get screwed to make sure they get enough money for re-election. Corporate media are none too happy to assist donorís preferences for policy.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:32 PM

26. I don't think it ought to be JUST up to us

I'm enormously frustrated by the fact that our elected leaders aren't more cognizant, more outraged and more activist of all this.

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Response to RandomAccess (Reply #26)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:35 PM

29. Well were the ones who elect them

so we should fire them by electing new ones.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:34 PM

28. Merrick Garland, as well

Last edited Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:38 PM - Edit history (1)

I realize the OP is about election theft, but Garland was a theft, too, although of a different nature.

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Response to BadgerMom (Reply #28)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:36 PM

30. Merrick, but yes, very much stolen and a clear violation of the duty of the Senate.

McConnell basically told the American people to fuck off, that his mandate under the Constitution meant nothing to him.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #30)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:40 PM

41. Thank you!

I edited my reply above. I knew his name but Iím a total failure as a proofreader. And autocorrect seldom lives up to its name. I should know better than to let it have its way.

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Response to BadgerMom (Reply #28)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:43 PM

33. Hes living proof of the direct results of those Presidential derailments

The collateral fallout directly linked to the failure of Congress to do its job.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:46 PM

34. Bush v. Gore was likely partly Russia, too, in funneling money to Ralph Nader and the Green Party.

Putin had just come on the international stage in late 1999, and the Clinton Administration had essentially contested Russia in the former Yugoslavia. This was also the exact time-frame that the Koch Bros. started building and expanding their network and spending big money on elections. That is no coincidence.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 01:53 PM

35. don't foget Nixon and Reagan and their dirty bullshit during the campaign season also

we haven't had a clean republican president since Eisenhower

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:04 PM

36. "Hey! Don't forget to mention us...!

We practically invented dirty tricks!"

Nixon's tricksters, Donald Segretti, Lee Atwater, et al:

?w=611&h=404&crop=1


http://swampland.time.com/2012/01/19/top-10-dirty-political-tricks-2/slide/donald-segretti-and-the-nixon-gang/

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:04 PM

37. An in each of those years the left left Green slime were involved....Nader in 2000.

Kerry was very much attacked early in the campaign and never had the support of the usual suspects named above...and in 16 ...well we all know what happened then...same old same old. The left left green slime (so called not progressive at all) and the purist didn't vote for Hillary so we got Trump...until we always vote Democratic in a general we will continue to lose.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:12 PM

38. You can go back farther than that.

Nixon and Reagan arguably committed treason to get elected to their first terms

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Response to Loubee (Reply #38)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:21 PM

40. Yes.

I think they did commit treason. They actively committed crimes by inviting foreign countries to throw the elections.

Their elections are the foundation for every stolen election in the 21st Century. Reagan especially set the ball rolling that has us where we are today.

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Response to Loubee (Reply #38)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 04:26 PM

46. I would count using russian agents to steal the election

as treason.

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #46)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:37 PM

53. It is treason

Thatís why Trump is so determined to claim no collusion.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:51 PM

42. That's why whenever I see posts saying "so and so should be the Dem candidate. S/he will

wipe the floor with trump!", I reply that it doesn't matter if we nominate Flawless Charismatic Superstar. As long as the repugs keep getting away with their dirty tactics, they'll keep "winning" elections.

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #42)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 02:55 PM

43. Exactly.

Our elections are becoming as honest as Putinís, Saddam Husseinís, or every other dictator who still pretends to hold elections.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 04:07 PM

45. Yeah, they stole the elections, but

what irks me is that, in none of those cases, should it have ever been nearly close enough for them to steal. Hillary was right both times. There is a "vast right wing conspiracy" and we do have a basketful of "deplorables".

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #45)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:42 PM

55. I thought it was obviously true to anyone when

Hillary made that comment about the vast right wing conspiracy back in the 1990s.

And since then theyíve used her to advance their agenda. Of course they werenít going to let her be president.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 07:00 PM

47. Fourth

Don't forget Tricky Dick telling the North and South Vietnamese to wait for a few months for a much better deal once he's President. Probably cost Hubie the election, as LBJ was close to a peace treaty.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:14 PM

48. What you say is true, but doesn't take into account all the down ballot races that were lost

in other elections due to same dirty tricks.

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Response to Amaryllis (Reply #48)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:27 PM

50. I wanted to limit it to Presidential election in this century

and specifically, as far as I know with the complicity, deliberate or not of the other branches of government and ultimately the media. A supine Congress, an inactive Judiciary and privatized media with a political agenda serving their owners.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #50)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:28 PM

51. You sure got all that right! Just saying, it was lots more than the presidency.

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Response to Amaryllis (Reply #48)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:43 PM

56. That is a very good point.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:38 PM

54. the last republican to legitimately win a first term was Dwight Eisenhower

and then Hoover before that

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 08:50 PM

57. Well said. Remember November. Like our lives depend on it. nt

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Mon Apr 16, 2018, 09:24 PM

58. Then there was the original October Surprise.

Bill Casey's goons convinced Iran to kill their deal with Carter to release their hostages to help Reagan.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Tue Apr 17, 2018, 12:47 AM

62. You forgot Nixon's and Reagan's treachery. Otherwise, spot on.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Tue Apr 17, 2018, 02:41 AM

63. Voting is a good idea but it's not the whole answer

People keep saying that we have to vote these guys out but you're forgetting that part of the dirty tricks is that they mess with the election system.

Does your vote count?

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Tue Apr 17, 2018, 08:27 AM

64. Also Gore lost when the Ohio SOS computers were switched to RNC servers in Chattanooga

at 10pm at nite, with Gore ahead. Switched back to Ohio server at 10:20 with vote counts flipped to Bush. Anybody staring at the screens wouldn't see that server switch happening in the background. This is the part of vote tampering that tech folks haven't followed up on yet.....and it's happened many times since I'm sure.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Tue Apr 17, 2018, 08:36 AM

65. bookmarked for future reference

ive been feeling this for a long time and couldnt put my finger on it.
my late mom had a saying," they (the rs) feel that they (the rs) own the white house and congress. they (the rs) get upset esp: when a democrat wins the white house .

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Tue Apr 17, 2018, 10:37 AM

66. Flipped votes in Ohio

stole the election from Kerry as he was in the process of drafting his acceptance remarks.

Suspect flipped votes in Wisc, Mich, & Penn in '16.

This may be a permanent thing from now on. Sure hope not.

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Response to lunatica (Original post)

Tue Apr 17, 2018, 11:43 AM

67. The question to ask the DNC

Knowing the GOP is going to cheat, why is it that the DNC has not prevented it? France did a job on the Russians when they tried to meddle in their elections, so knowing that the GOP is going to cheat, why is it that the democratic party doesn't do anything about it?

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Response to Perseus (Reply #67)

Tue Apr 17, 2018, 03:29 PM

68. I agree that the Democratic reps have failed also

Doing nothing has consequences just as powerful as doing something. When it comes to accountability there is no such thing as a pass. Every action and inaction has consequences.

Hopefully if he Democrats become the majority something will be done. One thing that makes this yearís elections more hopeful is the sheer numbers of people running for the first time, specifically because of Trump AND the mass shootings and out of control sales of semi automatic weapons of war in our country.

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