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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Pick captains and get it on!
Response to NCTraveler (Reply #1)
ehrnst This message was self-deleted by its author.
George II
(67,782 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)A picture is worth a thousand words.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(32,537 posts)all others in the party and who caucus with the party respected that and presented a unified front.
We would be unbeatable and would control all of government in overwhelming numbers.
arthritisR_US
(7,628 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)Also, many Democrats/liberals are not as likely to follow a leader to the degree that conservatives follow their leader.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,537 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)The party out of power rarely has 1 leader while the party in power had the president.
That is even truer of Democrats when they are out of power. Liberals tend to be less respectful of social hierarchies and less willing to follow their leader.
I agree with the need to fight the Nazis running the government but we need a strategy for doing so that acknowledges liberals for who and what we are.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)dissent whatsoever from from their ideas is justification for that dissenter being shunned as unethical, corrupt or "a corporate shill."
And somehow that's supposed to be a metric for how "liberal" or "progressive" a candidate is.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)so they don't become a "lightning rod.""
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I can't keep track...
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I hadnt noticed.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It's seasonal.
I didn't know Democrats did that kind of thing.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)As though they have jumped into a pool full of unexpectedly cold water.
Demsrule86
(71,033 posts)understand why a person who refuses to join the Democratic party and has been critical over the years of said party feels the need to intervene in party business. His endorsement of any candidate is meaningless to me.
pampango
(24,692 posts)the nominee who emerges from the primary and they support liberal Democrat principles.
Demsrule86
(71,033 posts)Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)I hate to break it to you but that model hasn't always worked out in the past.
lapucelle
(19,575 posts)Demsrule86
(71,033 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... so that's something, I guess.
MineralMan
(147,987 posts)Yay, Team!
Tarheel_Dem
(31,443 posts)sheshe2
(88,147 posts)It was the whole Universe.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,443 posts)Hey she.
sheshe2
(88,147 posts)Not one I have heard of either.
Hey Tarheel.
Demsrule86
(71,033 posts)Gothmog
(155,514 posts)betsuni
(27,308 posts)Revolution.
Cuthbert Allgood
(5,192 posts)When Sanders has big crowds and does big rallies, that doesn't mean any one supports him and he's just in it for the crowds. When he does really small events, it means that nobody supports him and he shouldn't be doing it?
It would be a lot easier if people just picked a position and stayed with it.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)You are upset with the photo. You don't need attack a strawman to express or defend that.
Cuthbert Allgood
(5,192 posts)And I'm not upset about it. I'm glad he's out there trying to get progressives elected. Every speaking engagement doesn't need to be a packed stadium.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Re-read them if you need to.
Cuthbert Allgood
(5,192 posts)Cool cool.
If it isn't there in explicit text, there is no meaning. Got it.
Carry on. Good luck with that approach to winning over people and votes.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)But do carry on with your game of being outraged, and find a few more strawmen to attack.
And you might want to find a new name to call people who don't apologize for you taking offense than "game player."
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)JustAnotherGen
(33,811 posts)Seriously - you and YOU alone can influence non Democratics to vote with your posts.
Two - Don't hate the player - hate the 'game'.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,537 posts)NOT progressive underground.
Cuthbert Allgood
(5,192 posts)Most liberal Democrats would fit into the progressive label.
To each their own, I guess.
I'm liberal, a Democrat, and I'm a progressive.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,537 posts)progressive.
Liberal includes all the positives of a progressive and much more.
sunRISEnow
(217 posts)I haven't heard it stated this simply. I do agree.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Especially on DU, and especially the label "true progressive."
Now who's playing games here? Good way to make people feel included in the party, dude.
(The fish ain't biting....)
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,668 posts)not all Democrats/Liberals are progressives.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,537 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Progressives have a very spotty history and my FDR style Southern Democratic father fought against democratic progressives how supported the likes of Huey Long. And ole Woodrow Wilson was a progressive.
I am by no means putting all modern day self identified progressive in that category. But to many Democrats it has a meaning that cannot be erased.
Historically progressives only focused on economic issues and social issues be damned. 3 years ago I thought the title might have been rehabilitated. Then I watched a bunch of progressives boo John Lewis almost off a stage.
If you call yourself a progressive and this sounds wrong to you, please read some history. But we Southerners, and I would guess African-American Southerners remember as well. Not trying to speak for African-Americans and if Im wrong I apologize.
I am a liberal Democrat. Do not call me a progressive.
Eliot Rosewater
(32,537 posts)JCanete
(5,272 posts)crowds how you judge a candidate? It isn't how I judge a candidate. It may speak to the excitement that candidate brings. It certainly may speak to their likelihood of being elected. It doesn't itself speak to whether or not this is a candidate we should support. If you think its good that this candidate doesn't bring excitement, then hell, lay that out, but all you are really doing is pointing to a character you don't like, Sanders, and his association, and laughing at the fact that there's nobody at the rally.
Do you not like Ben Jealous for some reason? If you don't know what kind of candidate he is, then why is this funny to you, and no, don't tell me that isn't your point or that I'm reading into your intentions. If you don't like Jealous or what he stands for, reveling in his poor rally numbers makes sense. I get it, but I'm guessing the fact that Sanders put his support behind him is enough for you take glee in the small crowd at this particular event.
Am I wrong? You could just post how that's not what you literally said, but that's hardly a denial.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)that I "judge a candidate by the crowd size."
That I "don't like" Ben Jealous.
Yes, you are wrong.
Yes, you are reading into my intentions.
Are you going to tell me next that I have no ability to judge a good candidate that doesn't have big donors?
Or that somehow getting fewer votes indicates that they are actually the better candidate? Because that's what you have been saying about the OR endorsed candidates that lost.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)the OR candidates and that I certainly wouldn't go on record across the board to say that they were better in every case than other options. What I was saying is that support or lack-thereof doesn't in itself indicate whether or not there should be support for a candidate.
Of course you don't want to actually say what your intentions were, although damn if I'm not interested.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)candidate."
Now there's some pretzel logic.
Why is it that you think that these poor candidates that OR endorsed "didn't have support, because they didn't have support?"
George II
(67,782 posts)Big crowd, lots of support. Small crowd, little support.
A candidate can't accomplish anything unless he/she gets elected.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)deserved attention? Is that what was going on here? OHHHHH! of course that's what this is all about.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)..."lack of support."
Granted, many here on DU have proposed that huge crowds, especially those near or on college campuses where it is easier to get an enthusiastic crowd, are an indication of the fitness of a candidate, or the efficacy of a candidate.
I assume that you are not one of those?
Or perhaps you have had a change of heart?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10029301163#post160
That sure sounds like you're saying that "support" (couched as popularity) is a proof of why we should "support" a candidate, JCanete....
Which is it?
JCanete
(5,272 posts)that he may in fact be able to help move the dialogue in a direction towards things that me and hortensis seemed to be aligned on. That he had brought some of these talking points to the forefront of political discussion.
What do you mean by fitness? Popularity as justification in and of itself for a candidate? Popular therefore good? Or viability? Those are two very different things. As to the latter, of course name recognition and popularity matters. It doesn't mean that somebody achieved it for the right reasons, since money buys exposure.
And no, there's nothing circular about pointing out that financial support(by the few) is often the progeneter of larger public support. Please don't try to tell me money doesn't have a significant footprint in politics.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)or clarifying it finally.
Strawman - you don't define "support" then you criticize me when I assume you are still talking about popularity..... Of course money has an effect. You can't run without it. That is what EMILY's List is about.
You are saying that politicians with the most money should not neccessarily get the most POPULAR support, but you think that they do.
Are you saying that a politician that has less money has no chance of getting as much popular support as a candidate with more money?
JCanete
(5,272 posts)money or pre-established clout/name recognition/etc. may catch fire in a fluke
conflation of circumstances and thus raise a whole lot of money from individual donors, which is what happened to Sanders, allowing him to propel that message forward and in turn, get more funding to do so and to run his campaign. What positions can get corporate funding and what positions cannot is kind of what is at play here. There is no big money to be had if you have a certain ideology, particularly if it puts a target on the back of those with the purse strings. They don't like it there.
At some level how much money a campaign has versus one's opponent stops being as much of a factor. Or at least there's going to be a point of diminishing returns...but there is a whole lot of other capital that exists, and how that capital is achieved is worth at least exploring. One could argue that people who have a lot of backing from arms of the corporate media, have it because they have generated that good will and have come out the best from rigorous journalistic vetting. One could argue as a counter-point that those who get that media blessing(positive free press and the negative or absence of press for their opponents) get it because of the hiring choices these media institutions make in the first place, which reflect the mindset or desires of their hirers. Also, that individuals in media and those organizations they work for fear crossing front-runner candidates because to do so could limit access, which could directly impact their bottom line.
One could point to direct intervention of media owners into what message will be sold to the public and what message will be ignored. The most obvious examples have to do with Sinclair broadcasting and FOX news and its infamous memos. I think this is the least common and most egregious form of media manipulation, and there are examples to be cited at MSNBC and I'm sure elsewhere as well, but they aren't by any stretch the most pervasive way in which the candidates with the most financial support from industries get the most attention. For one thing, it is popular for journalists to report on viable candidates based upon their ability to secure that kind of funding. By virtue of impressing corporate donors and getting them on your side, you are already considered by the media to be the legitimate candidate in the race from early on.
So much journalism doesn't even dig deeper at this stage of a race. They're already picking winners and that ultimately has an impact on who people will put their vote behind. Sure, the very fact that these candidates did secure that money is evidence that they will be better situated to take a nomination, but I'm not sure it is the media's job to simply report that person as the serious candidate...the media's job should be to look into the candidates and to determine what their platforms are and what their ideals and records are and to bring that information to the public so that the money itself isn't the biggest thing that weighs on who is viable.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)JCanete
(5,272 posts)Which specific thing that I mentioned to you want an example of? Sinclair? Access? The clamped range of mainstream editorial and punditry when it comes to big media institutions? Media reporting on candidate viability based on ability to fundraise?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)You seem to forget that candidates have many choices about the funding they get.
Some candidates get the financial backing of superpacs they have nothing to do with, in the form of expensive media attack ads against their opponent. Those $ aren't counted as donations, or financial support but they certainly work for the candidate.
I do agree that the media played a part in the elections - they went on the attack on Hillary, using "Clinton rules" even for nothingburgers, because they were fed by clicks and shares those who were furious that she had the nerve to think that she was more qualified to be the leader of the free world than any man who opposed her. So yes, the media did have a huge effect on HRC's candidacy. And even so - she still won the people's vote. She persisted despite the media.
Imagine if a man had done that.
Your turn:
Do you have an example of an "avowed Socialist" who is also millionaire?
JCanete
(5,272 posts)Sanders brought in tons of money from small donors. He was the exception to the typical tree falling in the forest conundrum. I should not have said socialist because there are so very few to even draw from, but then that's because socialists rarely make a peep given the amplification required to do so. I should have said any politician who is considered an enemy to the elite or to "business." Anybody who is not simply going to try to work within Washington with these companies to reign in their excesses, but is going to take that message to the people, will not get a dime and if they make enough noise somehow, many dimes will be spent destroying them. Sure, if somehow they manage to get the GE nom anyway then some money may flow in as a hedging of bets, but I doubt it. I'm pretty sure if Sanders had gotten the nod we would have seen some serious scorched earth(and that isn't meant to belittle the damage the media did to Clinton, its a statement more to the fact that Clinton who would have been a capable, knowledgeable and responsible leader, would have come in to work with the system as it is, whereas Sanders would have tried to put a wrench in it and would have made it a war, and being fair, would probably have lost that war.)
Really though, while I agree with you that misogyny played a role in how Clinton has been attacked over the years, and would agree that it certainly affected those voters who have absurdly patriarchal views about what a woman should be or is capable of and even many who don't realize they have that bias and are perfectly oblivious to the sexism intrinsic in attacks of "shrill" or those going to Clinton's appearance, etc., the trend is the same. If you are a democrat the media will find some reason to drag you though the mud, and it will not do the same thing to Republicans. Hell, Palin...also a woman. It happened with Kerry, it happened with Gore, Dean, it was tried with Obama with Reverend Wright (he was just uniquely up to the challenge and there was precious little else they could find), I assume it happened with Bill pre Lewinsky, but certainly during.
Also, if you can point to an argument somebody has made about millionaires automatically being bad people for being millionaires, or to anybody saying that there should be no millionaires , I suggest you do so. Sanders book put him over into the millionaire mark. That is first, nowhere near billionaire status and I don't even know that anybody is saying billionaires should not be possible, and second, has nothing at all to do with whether or not he supports a progressive tax, or more taxes on millionaires and billionaires or regulations on how they do business. This is the kind of take-down the right engages in..and I'm not accusing you here of being of the right, but don't you remember that old term limousine liberal? The point being you can't have wealth and still rail against inequality, because doing so automatically makes you a hypocrite?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I didn't make that argument - I just asked you for an example of an "avowed socialist" being a millionaire. I am not sure how those two exist together in one. Maybe you could tell me?
But, since you asked, the morning after Joseph Kennedy 3 gave the democratic response to SOTU, on FB and right here on DU, very high end, professionally designed graphic memes trashing him as a 2020 presidential candidate - with his personal worth being listed as a deal breaker, along with not signing onto Medicare for All. Clearly, many Sanders supporters saw something threatening about his compelling presence and progressive message, and Kennedy hadn't even said anything about running for POTUS.
Those posts were removed, and I won't repost it here - PM me if you want to see it.
I'm not in the camp that says that personal wealth is a deal breaker in a progressive leader, but many who are "avowed Socialists" hold Bernie up as a shining example of someone who is above going after filthy lucre, and that's why they are convinced that there is nothing whatsoever is worth looking at in his financials.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)his own Democratic Socialism is, doesn't necessarily seem to be a direct contradiction to any capitalistic mechanisms, but second, this is the society we do live in. One person could choose to live by their own values ...maybe go off and live on a commune...but you could instead, live one way and still advocate for a world that is different. In fact, going off and living in your little micro-culture would make you less capable of engaging in the work of making change.
I would also say Sanders has mostly been above that. There are those who go where the money is, and there are those who stick to their art or principles or whatever, and just happen to win by doing so. In Sanders case, he's been in politics many many long years, and you can make a lot of rich powerful friends in politics, particularly if you aren't going around alienating them. Only now at this late hour has he really cashed in, and its not exactly because he's hopped onto some new bandwagon.
By the way, I'm not attempting to put words in your mouth...I'm trying to get at what you are saying. I'm trying to figure out what your point is, and sometimes I take a stab at it when it seems to point a certain way. I'm all for being corrected if I'm wrong. I'm not sure that that is strawmanning.
As to what other people have said about wealth being a deal breaker, the problem is that that has never come out of my mouth nor is it my sentiment. I believe you that somebody here said it. That seems more like a strawman than anything I"ve said, because it represents only random people who's posts were removed. Now, how a person has made his millions or billions, or how that person has used them towards what ends is important. Whether a person's advocacy seems soft on his own wealthy demographic is important.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Cuthbert Allgood
(5,192 posts)Care to explain your "oh dear" post then in the light that "nobody is saying that"?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"a picture is worth a thousand words."
Sound like you are looking for a shoe that fits.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It a far stretch for any reasonable and fair-minded person to interpret "Oh dear" as meaning the same thing you wrote in post #9. And if they do truly believe that... if they're so delicate and offended when someone acknowledges the truth about the minuscule crowd size... well, that's their problem and not mine.
It really serves no good purpose to try and ascribe some sinister meaning to something as simple as an "oh dear" exclamation.
All I'm saying is that I can't be held accountable for such wild imaginings and hurt feelings.
Cuthbert Allgood
(5,192 posts)I suspect that will result in another election where people are mystified as to why some people don't feel welcome in the Dem party. Hopefully that doesn't happen.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)the party itself!
And you want to call other people "divisive?"
The pearl clutching on this thread is really out of control.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)tonedevil
(3,022 posts)and that's what I see you trying to flight. I'd call it group think, but I don't believe anyone in that group is thnking.
sheshe2
(88,147 posts)Nurse Jackie said "Oh Dear" and...
Cuthbert Allgood
Continue doing what you are doing.
I suspect that will result in another election where people are mystified as to why some people don't feel welcome in the Dem party. Hopefully that doesn't happen.
And now some people will not feel welcome in the Democratic Party? Perhaps they do not belong if Nurse Jackie said "Oh Dear" and that upsets them. Are these people so tone deaf and uneducated that makes it impossible for them to vote in their best interests?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)that they have.
Trying to rationalize one's own personal discomfort and irritation at a post by equating it with "DAMAGING THE DEMOCRATS AND COSTING US THE ELECTION, YOU'D BETTER STOP RIGHT NOW!!!" is getting old.
You've been called out on it several times on one thread.
You also seem to give your political prophetic powers about Democrats and the 2018 elections way more credence that they have.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Obviously they were expecting a big crowd which never materialized.
Response to ehrnst (Original post)
Post removed
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Why don't you tell us what that is?
Seems like I'm not the one doing the "stirring" here.
Response to ehrnst (Reply #15)
Post removed
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)That glass house of yours let in a little too much light this morning?
Y'all get some coffee, and you'll feel better.
Then lace up those nice-fitting shoes and take a walk.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It's a great day!
Cha
(305,853 posts)R B Garr
(17,413 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)R B Garr
(17,413 posts)unsolicited emails. Some people just see stories in the news and post about them. Time moves on. It's been two years since the loss. No need to make things personal.
You too?
R B Garr
(17,413 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(32,537 posts)R B Garr
(17,413 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... emphasis on the word "former". That type of unwelcome and aggressive behavior is not without risks or consequences.
All I'm saying is that there's a very thin line between what's reasonable and what's considered to be harassment.
R B Garr
(17,413 posts)You describe the behavior very well.
Tom Rinaldo
(23,015 posts)Do you find him worthy of support, by Sanders or anyone else?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)and the full range of Democratic candidates to determine if I would support him in a primary.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Being from outside the state and not knowing much.
I think as a candidate he should take a different path for organizing rallies. I organize more people than that for a beach clean-up in 95 degree heat with one weeks notice.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)sunRISEnow
(217 posts)Jealous is active and has put himself out there. Self promoting isn't a bad thing if he gets stuff done. He didn't draw much of a crowd either. I am curious about that. I hear Republican Holden has a strong hold and leads about the same with all seven Democrats. No Democrat really has a lead. The race appears open.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)of her job without first checking the facts or getting her side of the story (and claiming he'd been "snookered by Breitbart) still sticks in my craw.
mythology
(9,527 posts)His message didnt resonate with many minority voters, specifically black voters. The party base is moving leftward, and I think it's good for there to be greater links and partnership between the further left which is predominantly white and the base of the party which is heavily minority.
sunRISEnow
(217 posts)I do not know anything about the Maryland governor race but Jealous seems to be a good man. I get the comic factor of Sanders talking to an empty room, but from what I read about Jealous, Sanders support should not be used against him.
Youngest NAACP, civil rights activist. That works for me. Maryland is a far ways from where I am.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Why would you think that it is?
sunRISEnow
(217 posts)There are only a few people there. Jealous seems to be a good, solid Democrat. He does not seem to be able to draw a crowd, either. I mean, this is significantly small.
I saw someone tweet about getting a bird.
RandySF
(71,149 posts)Orangepeel
(13,970 posts)Maryland passed a LOT of progressive legislation in the past few years, and Rich was at the forefront of ALL of it.
http://madalenoformaryland.com/meet-rich/
oasis
(51,797 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)The thing that had Sanders going for him a couple of years ago was that he was seen as "fresh" and "new". I never understood how could that be with a guy who had been in congress for 30 years. I guess it was he had accomplished so little that nobody knew who he was.
But you know that old saying, familiarity breeds contempt. The excitement is gone. It'd be better for him to forget about 2020