When Two Control-Hungry Narcissists Meet, There Is Impasse.

[MineralMan]

Anything can happen, or nothing. Both believe they are right, and both believe they are capable of forcing their own position. From the initial handshake, when both attempt to assert their dominance, to the parting at the end of the meeting, it is a battle between two people who cannot see any point of view but their own.

This is the Trump/Kim meeting, in a nutshell. Both men are pathological narcissists. Both are used to getting their own way in any setting. Those attitudes do not make for a productive meeting. Each will feel insulted by the other and will feel the need for retaliation.

Trump has just left a meeting of national leaders where he was the odd man out and was not, apparently, shown the deference he always believes he is owed. Now, he'll be meeting another national leader who is, perhaps, even more narcissistic than himself. A leader who thinks nothing of having his opponents summarily executed.

I expect a show of smiles at the beginning, followed by a steady exchange of scowls and disagreement. Both need a positive conclusion to the meeting, but neither will be willing to give ground. I can't imagine that this will end well, unless...

The catch is this: Both men are subject to control by people who are more powerful than themselves. For Trump, that person is Putin. For Kim, it is Xi. It may well happen that both Kim and Trump have been informed of expectations and will have to accept their orders.

We shall see. Sadly, we will not be able to watch as this occur, and will only have official photos and a public statement once decisions have been made. We will not know what actually transpired.

[underpants]

1. I won't be surprised if we have a F You moment

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10181087917

but as you say both are getting direction from their overlords.

[MineralMan]

2. Neither Kim nor Trump are comfortable with standard diplomatic

language. Both are likely to say almost anything, particularly when thwarted.

[bdamomma]

3. Your last comment is very worrying

we should know what is being said if anything at all. Well, I would like to know are they going to say to each other or will they just gawk at each other and tRump lie as usual that it was a good meeting.

[MineralMan]

4. I'm sure that all meetings will be behind closed doors.

Official photos only. That's normally the way such things are done. Watching sausage being made is not good for the appetite.

[bdamomma]

5. like your analogy!!

nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Neither of them can stand to lose.

Or, more accurately, to be perceived as having lost. For Trump, and most likely for Kim as well, everything from a round of golf to nuclear disarmament is a zero-sum game that he can't bear to lose, or for anyone to see that he lost. Kim often manages that problem by just killing people. Trump probably would like to be able to do that, too, but he manages by lying, and that has been fairly effective for him so far. If Trump and Kim are the puppets of Putin and Xi respectively, the question is whether the puppet masters can control their puppets. Trump doesn't think strategically, and in the moment will place the insatiable needs of his own ego even ahead of the desires of his handler. We will never get an accurate account of the meeting but the consequences will become evident sooner or later. There will either be an agreement by Kim to verifiably denuclearize, or there won't. I'm voting for the latter outcome. Spanky will try to spin whatever they come up with, but the way the meeting really went down can be figured out by the tone of his tweets. One thing about our Dear Leader is that he can't keep secrets.

[MineralMan]

7. Exactly. Both are pretending to be in control, while neither actually is.

We're going to see what happens, perhaps. Still, what is released publicly will almost certainly not be the entire story.

[Squinch]

8. Alternatively, they are mirror images. They might fall deeply in love.

[MineralMan]

9. Unlikely, I think.

However, one never can be sure.

[ismnotwasm]

10. So racking my brains, I seem to remember learning

That culturally, China is a huge influence on all of East nations, as well as a powerful influence. In fact, I had an professor whose opinion was that China considered itself a benevolent de facto leader over all the East. (Which is why we use culturally competent diplomats in negotiations because the expectations of cultures are quite different.)

There is zero chance that Trump won’t offer, even inadvertently, some insult, and while I’m reading reports that China is “nervous” I doubt this is the case, I believe China will have a better scope on the reaction of the North Korean government than we ever could.

If this is a path to peace, great, but I suspect this will lead to more economic erosion of American influence, because China is a big damn deal.

No NK will keep its nukes, because of course they will. What I know is Trump seems to screw up everything, and I have no expectation of this being different.

[MineralMan]

11. Right now, relations between Russia and China are pretty good.

What's interesting about that is that Putin will be telling Trump what to do and Xi will be telling Kim. In the background, though, Russia and China are talking as allies, rather than adversaries. So, what advice will they be offering? What are their goals for the US and North Korea? Those questions are key, really.

Those and the question of whether Trump or Kim or both of them might go against advice and do something unpredictable. All of this is very complicated. I don't pretend to understand it. We're going to have to wait and see what transpires.