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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBernie admits need to get schooled on African-American incarceration*
Last edited Fri Jun 15, 2018, 02:40 PM - Edit history (3)
I really didn’t know this was happening. I had no idea hundreds of thousands of Americans, particularly African-Americans, were being held in jail, for months or years, even though they’ve never been convicted of a crime, simply because they can’t afford bail,” Sanders told me in a tiny dressing room backstage before the event.“I’ve learned a lot,” he continued. “I see the racial disparities clearer than ever. I want to help – just tell me how I can best help and we’ll do it.” I was touched. He wasn’t reading from a script. He was admitting to me, as he soon would from the stage, in front of thousands of people, that he hasn’t always gotten this quite right.
https://theintercept.com/2018/06/14/bernie-sanders-criminal-justice-reform/
* This OP was originally title "Bernie gets schooled on African-American incarceration AGAIN ... this time by Soledad O'Brien."
I've edited the OP because Soledad O'Brien took down her tweet that responded to a quote from Bernie Sanders by referencing another source regarding the number of African Americans incarcerated without bail in Vermont. Soledad apparently took down her tweet after it was pointed out that, by leaving out the word "proportionally," her tweet may didn't accurately reference @mic's comment.
After O'Brien took down her tweet, I thought about deleting this OP. But I decided to leave it up with a different title and an explanation because: 1) the discussion that followed is interesting; 2) contrary to some of the claims in this thread and elsewhere, Soledad did NOT misquote Bernie or quote him out of context - the quote of his she included in the tweet was accurate. The problem with her tweet involved a different tweet that she may have misinterpreted, but did not in anyway mischaracterize what Bernie said; and 3) Bernie's comment revealed a pretty startling lack of knowledge about a topic he should be well-versed in and that's worthy of discussion.
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Me.
(35,454 posts)Doesn't he keep up with what's going on in this country? God knows, especially in the last couple of years it's been all over the news. Perhaps because he only concerns himself with his misguided perceptions of the economy and urging us not to pay attention to 'identity' politics.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)
Me.
(35,454 posts)maybe 10x is just to small a number for him to bother with...
George II
(67,782 posts)
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)MrPool
(73 posts)that Russian loving alt-left Intercept is really pathetic.
brer cat
(24,629 posts)Not only voted for him, but campaigned for him.
Yet some here have real concerns about the article and the website.
Hmmm
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)As if he hasn't been a backer for a very long time.
The Intercept worships Sanders. They downplay anything that Hillary does, and inflate Sanders - such giving credit to Sanders' endorsement for the win of a black candidate for mayor in a blue district, describing the candidate as "having backed Clinton in the 2016 elections" when he was the Georgia lead for her campaign.
Shaun King is their "proof" that they are inclusive.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Such a phony puff piece. Sanders has been representing Vermont in congress since 1991, in local Vermont government before that. There is no rational or valid reason he would not know this. It was his job and his duty to know it. 76 is a little late to start "evolving" to care enough to, say, read a little article on the subject, forget reading one of the many studies that were submitted to congress over those decades.
Interestingly, Sanders is also bizarrely ignorant about government itself. From his two major 2016 editorial board interviews, we learned that he had no idea how the various laws and departments of government would be used to achieve his promised policies. In a quarter century in DC, did he never think he might need to actually know how to use government make the changes he so passionately demanded happen?
What was he doing all those years besides just voting for whatever the Democratic leadership brought up for a vote? Does he have a hobby?
Few criminal justice scholars or workers in Vermont seem able to explain how this happened. The black incarceration rate grew faster here than in any other in the state between 1993 and 2007, before it leveled out and stayed relatively constant. But shortly before its peak, the Sentencing Project reported that Vermont had the second-highest black-to-white incarceration rate in America — topped only by Iowa, another state with a small black population.
https://mic.com/articles/124341/here-s-how-black-people-actually-fare-in-vermont-with-bernie-sanders-as-their-senator#.w6zO74mt1
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)who was running for President - “had no idea” about this is that he doesn’t care.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Of course 2015-2016 made him "care," and we see his version of caring now, but not about the right things for the right reasons.
lapucelle
(18,372 posts)not the political parties, that determines whether primaries are open or closed.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)to bypass the intellect to trigger the intended emotional response from angry populists and passionate dissidents. Sanders and Sarah Palin, and of course Trump, are very good at it.
disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)goodness...
MrPool
(73 posts)Also see the shoe horn effect. (The extreme left agreeing with extreme right on many issues)
1) Those who deny Russian interference or admire Russia
2)Misogynists(See TYT employee roster)
3)Identity politics not a issue or a real nuisance
4)Spend more time attacking Democrats then Republicans( See Fox State News for this)
5)Glad to been seen with Alt-right types in pics or in agreement on articles
6) Combination of some or all of the above can mean a Alt-Lefter and not a real progressive.
7)Trump did not create this term but picked up on it
8)Liberals and Democrats see this even Never Trumpers(Spoken to quite a few) do as well
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)of Putin in the US. I think they are willing tools.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/25/putin-rt-soviet-propaganda-121734
http://www.thepeoplesview.net/main/epeoplesview.net/2012/04/glenn-greenwald-whores-for-russian.html
And I think that Shaun King is to RT as Ben Carson is the GOP - "proof" that they not "bigoted."
SallyHemmings
(1,823 posts)for far too many folks like Bernie and his "bros." It is too hard for them to consider that life is harder for women and minorities.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,918 posts)A hell of a lot of women supported Sanders in 2016. I know many of them, good strong activists fighting on a number of fronts. It always seems ironic (at best) to me when they are treated as invisible by those who essentially equate "Bernie Bros " with Bernie supporters, while talking about oppression of women.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)
Tom Rinaldo
(22,918 posts)but you might find that chauvinist.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)
kcr
(15,320 posts)Always a good time, isn't it? 
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,123 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts) 
sheshe2
(83,981 posts)kcr
(15,320 posts)Ticking off all the boxes! 
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,123 posts)
Fullduplexxx
(7,873 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Tom Rinaldo
(22,918 posts)Forget clumsy terms like mail carriers, police officers, fire fighters and the like. Let's just go back to calling them what they are; mailmen, firemen, policemen etc. After all the majority of those employed in those professions are male, so it's accurate. Most women voted for Hillary which explains why Sanders supporters should be called "Bernie Bros". Got it.
.
Caliman73
(11,757 posts)The demographic that Bernie won without question was young White men.
I voted for Bernie in the primary but the man has, throughout his political career, had a BIG blind spot for the particular struggles of Black people and women. His main problem is that he falls into the trap of thinking that everything is an economic justice issue without truly understanding that Economic Justice is also about Race and Gender.
The bottom line is that if you legislate things that make life better for Black, Brown, and Yellow women, then you make life at the very least. little better for EVERYONE. The same cannot be said about legislation for other groups. Making life better for working class people will still, because of systemic racism, improve the lives of minority people and women much less than it will White people. Race and Gender, and the hundreds of years of bias against women and minorities HAVE to be taken into consideration when legislating anything and Sanders never really wanted to go there in any major way.
George II
(67,782 posts)stonecutter357
(12,698 posts)
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)sheshe2
(83,981 posts)Interesting. Now it is cool that he is evolving when just the other day some people were saying he has stood firm on his beliefs for the past 60 ( that would be at 18?) and has never waivered....and went on to say that is why they loved him.
How the heck can he not know what is happening in the world around him, not even in his own dayum state. Hell, where was he when Ferguson happened, there were 100's of articles about this.
edit to add
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
brush
(53,930 posts)instead of uniting to fight against trump.
This and the fact that a certain candidate thought AAs were drug dealers should have come out back then.
The primary battle would've been much shorter.
sheshe2
(83,981 posts)Sad, isn't it brush.
brush
(53,930 posts)and Comey and Hillary still got 3m more votes.
It's just infuriating that so much campaign time was wasted fighting a certain candidate's divisiveness who it turns out was so out of touch with the concerns of a huge part of our base.
sheshe2
(83,981 posts)The article does give BS some kudos, yet if you read the whole thing some people winced at some of his remarks.
https://theintercept.com/2018/06/14/bernie-sanders-criminal-justice-reform/
Funny how some are saying the Intercept is a hit piece. The author endorsed Sanders.
JCanete
(5,272 posts), and yet, remarkably, he has been right on the actual policies he advocates for and against in most cases, for instance, when it comes to the prison industrial complex. Perhaps that can be attributed to a compassion that has outstripped his grasp of the magnitude of the injustice that has been occurring in our "justice" system, or perhaps there are other reasons he's on the right side of these issues. That said, its frustrating that there are gaps in his knowledge when it comes to these issues. I'm all for having a choice for a progressive candidate who is less antiquated and more polished than Sanders, but what I care most about is what policies that candidate campaigns on and whether or not I believe that candidate will vocally fight to make them happen. And simply putting something on your website is not a convincing way of showing me that you are going to make something a focal point.
But no, the point couldn't be that its good that sanders has always thought the same way on everything. The point has been that when it comes to his voting and his rhetoric he's (nearly) always been on the right side of history, and that he's typically been ahead of the curve. That he has been consistent when it comes to his position on most issues though, is only good by virtue of them being the right positions to have held. Otherwise, personal evolution is absolutely preferable to consistency.
In terms of opening his eyes to a far more systemic racist system (yes including the assumptions that that system allows the privileged to fall back on) than he realized, I'm all for him evolving. In terms of these carceral black-holes, I certainly hold Sanders to a higher standard than myself, but this was certainly a surprise for me to hear about not soo soo long ago, being naïve enough to think that even in our incredibly sick and broken system that people were not as a matter of common practice, being denied due process and that there were no real checks on that unconstitutional conduct. Seriously though, if this is on every democratic politicians radar, then why isn't it being shouted from the rooftops by them. I'm not sure how knowledge equates to a positive representation of our other government officials in this circumstance.
His compassion outstripped his grasp at the magnitude of the injustice?
What? What compassion weighs more than injustice in our justice system? Oh, you mean economic issues that out weigh social justice. Got it.
Lol....little slip here? Tee Hee. I thought he was a lefty and a true progressive and here you say he is on the right. Ha, sorry had to have some fun there. I know you did not mean he leans right.
Not every politician needs to shout it from the rooftops. This. Yesterday. Protesting. Quietly. Arrest me.
House Democrats risk arrest in protest of Trump admin's family separation policy
Congress members Judy Chu of California, Al Green of Louisiana, Raúl Grijalva of Arizona, Luis Gutiérrez of Illinois, Joe Crowley of New York, Adriano Espaillat of New York, Jimmy Gomez of California, Pramila Jayapal of Washington state, Jan Schakowsky of Illinois and Lewis have all signed a letter calling for the defunding of family separation, but this barbaric practice also called for outrage:
https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6/14/1771923/-House-Democrats-risk-arrest-in-protest-of-Trump-admin-s-family-separation-policy
Sanders holds rallies and numerous town halls. For a 2020 run? House Democrats ask to be arrested for protesting the separation of families torn apart. They are the heros.
JCanete
(5,272 posts)and not necessarily know the extent to which a certain injustice is at play. Then your behavior, I'd guess, if it manifested in progressive positions, would be more a function of being kind and compassionate rather than understanding a grave injustice at the heart of it all...you may believe in rehabilitation or leniency or redemption, or that over-incarceration is bad and a negative. you may believe in restorative justice. You can be on all of those pages and still not realize just how tilted the justice system is against people of color, from the profiling, to the arrests to the convictions to the sentencing. You can believe people of color have not gotten a fair shake, or have the silly carry-over idea(which I've had at some point in my life too before I learned more) that black people commit more crime because the circumstances give them little choice...whereas at the root of that assumption is the fallacy that black people actually commit more crime, versus the reality that people of color are simply more likely to be charged and convicted of a crime.
That Sanders wasn't entirely aware of just how deep some of these wrongs go does disappoint me but also surprises me given his advocacy of policy. But I've never been a hero worshipper and I've certainly been aware that he has had blind spots. If people want to talk about areas where I think he is weak, I'm all for it. If they want to make some shit up and bitch and moan about anything he does and turn it into a negative, or call completely reasonable policies unicorns, fuck yes, I'm going to push back.
What you are talking about regarding detention of immigrants is on everybody's radar today and everybody is talking about it. Credit to those literally out there on the front line. But what of the issues of systemic incarceration and its imbalance that I was talking about, or that Sanders is speaking to in his newfound epiphany? Has that really been a national issue to be hammered home for democrats? Has imprisonment without trial been? When?
as to how people conduct their time as public figures....I suggest they condcuct it the most effective way. Sometimes being among the protestors is the most effective way of using your influence and voice. Sometimes other approaches reach more people, or the right people. I'll grant that it isn't heroism to go around and preech a politicdal philosophy, at least here in America today. That doesn't make it less important or valuable. I'm not sure that our politicians that are risking arrest, are quite putting themselves on the line at the level you suggest either, though I respect their efforts.
sheshe2
(83,981 posts)
JCanete
(5,272 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)
Cha
(297,877 posts)Thank you, she!
Thanks.
msongs
(67,465 posts)Not the Onion.
joshcryer
(62,279 posts)If you watch this video be prepared to cry a little.
Hekate
(90,915 posts)...and not jobs or the minimum wage. Because their adult children were dropping dead of ODs in front of their grandchildren, and stuff like that.
She was right about that, too.
joshcryer
(62,279 posts)Damn shame.
sprinkleeninow
(20,268 posts)💙🇺🇸🌊
out the loiterers!
brush
(53,930 posts)This revealing info seems to have been purposely kept from the rank and file of progressive voters because it would've quickly ended the campaign of a certain candidate from a small state.
I guess being so uninformed prompts one to make comments against "identity politics".
sheshe2
(83,981 posts)
brush
(53,930 posts)JCanete
(5,272 posts)by virtue of a political system that supports, condones, ignores, these conditions because powerful people and corporations have massive influence. We can continue to try to pick up the pieces, attack the symptoms of the problem, and maybe we'll get lucky cure that symptom and the cancer will just move on to a different part of the organism, but its still going to kill us. The profits these companies make through massive exploitation of the american people only happens with the support of the system.
That said, I'm hardly saying stop paying attention to the symptoms. We've got to treat them, but you can't ignore the underlying sickness here and expect to survive it.
all american girl
(1,788 posts)awesome Civil Rights leader there ever was. I knew this back in the 80's, I was a teenager/young adult woman, from Iowa...are you kidding me. This dude is in congress and he never bothered to look into to this. I was told he was looking out for the poor people, but I'm wondering if it's only certain poor people.
The Wielding Truth
(11,415 posts)
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)are from The Sentencing Project.
The point, of course, is that it is Sanders' duty to know about this shocking problem. And to quote correct data if he's going to address a topic. Although he claims to have been ignorant about Vermont, in 2015 Sanders earned 2 Pinocchios from the WaPo for using an old, commonly quoted popular culture claim about national black incarceration that hadn't been valid for almost a decade. The "one in three black males ‘born today’ will end up in jail" one.
He was apparently too disinterested to learn what anyone running for president, as well as be U.S. senator from Vermont, should know. Guessing it was just a talking point for him to hit that was supplied by a similarly disinterested and sloppy staffer.
— Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), interview on “Charlie Rose,” June 11, 2015
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/06/16/the-stale-statistic-that-one-in-three-black-males-has-a-chance-of-ending-up-in-jail/?utm_term=.bcfade846f46
sheshe2
(83,981 posts)For the most part, so is the whole site.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)The author is a well know activist and Bernie Sanders ally.
George II
(67,782 posts).....sometimes I have to shake my head and wonder.
kamalafan
(63 posts)Evolution is a good thing so what am I missing in this?
brush
(53,930 posts)Last edited Thu Jun 14, 2018, 10:07 PM - Edit history (1)
were drug dealers.
kamalafan
(63 posts)brush
(53,930 posts)kamalafan
(63 posts)
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)set that aside.
What do you think about Bernie’s comment?
kamalafan
(63 posts)and I would venture a guess that 95% of American's don't know either.
In the last couple of years, it has really come to light how many people are locked up because they can't afford bail. It's the rise of the new debotor's prisons and one reason why Shaun King started his new PAC to win AG's on the state level so this changes.
I guess I see things differently with what Bernie was saying that being said, admitting you're wrong isn't a bad thing.
brush
(53,930 posts)He's about as informed as everyone else.
Not good.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)a leader on civil rights.
Sorry, but that excuse just doesn’t fly. African Americans don’t need a president who has to be tutored about our issues and concerns.
kamalafan
(63 posts)what he is saying. Go back please and read what he said & try to look past your point of view.
Now taking your POV into context (which I do disagree with), admitting your faults as Bernie has done is not a bad thing especially given many are unwilling or unable to do so.
Did you happen to watch the town hall with Bernie and Rev Barber about income inequality and the Poor People's Campaign? I urge you to do so if you haven't. I think more than likely you'd agree with both Bernie & Rev Barber about the plight POC face today. It's really good, please watch if you've not already.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)somewhat different POV than when he's addressing a more "universal" audience, especially when has dismissed issues that don't directly affect white straight men as peripheral "identity politics."
He has distinguished "identity politics" (which interestingly, aren't as prominent in homogenous Vermont) as separate from "universal economic issues," and less urgent.
That is something he has been very reluctant to address, and simply appearing with a minister of color before a predominantly AA audience and speaking to them about those "non-universal" issues doesn't change that. I have yet to hear him even mention, let alone rebuke his supporters for their treatment of John Lewis at the convention. I will never forget that.
I think it's significant that Mothers of the Movement felt Hillary earned their backing.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)But when one of the faults a 70-something-year-old man who’s been in politics most of his life and positions himself as a civil rights champion and fighter for the downtrodden is that he “had no idea” until 3 years ago that a major, fundamental, egregious and much analyzed, discussed and written about problem of great concern to the African-American community even existed, but now wants to learn and do somethings out it, he’s NOT ready for prime time and doesn’t need to be anywhere near the White House.
Welcome to DU.
kamalafan
(63 posts)I do wonder why you bring Bernie's age into it which is irrelevant and seems rather ageist to me. How many time have you heard other senators bring this up? And who is bringing up? How often are our elected reps talking about POC who are incarcerated not for committing a crime but because they can't afford bail? 3 years ago this wasn't "much written about" as you claim and only within the last year and a half or so has it really come to light. In fact, its only been very recently that Shaun King decided to start a PAC to after AG's across the country in order to fix this very issue--- Real Justice PAC.
We all have our opinions and you are certainly entitled to yours, without question but we are going to disagree on this because I see openly admitting your faults not as a fault but a solid strength and yes, that goes for presidential candidates as well.
Thanks for the welcome!
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)A grown-assed man who has been on earth for 70+ years, lived through and participated in the civil rights movement, should have a range of exposure, experience and understanding. His age IS relevant.
"How many times have I heard senators bring this up?" Are you serious?
LOTS of times. Senators and representatives and local politicians and activists talk about this issue FREQUENTLY. Hell, even some Republican Senators have taken up the cause of incarceration.
How a man of Bernie's age and experience AND a U.S. Senator AND a supposed progressive AND who goes around lecturing everyone else about civil rights didn't know this is beyond me. The only way he couldn't know is if he is totally not paying attention.
Hell, in 2016, we were bombarded with Bernie supporters quoting Michelle Alexander's criticism of Hillary Clinton as proof that African Americans shouldn't support Hillary but should switch to Bernie because he was SO much better than Hillary on these issues. Alexander's book, "The New Jim Crow" is all about the discrimination that black men face in the criminal justice system, including how African American men are incarcerated without trial for because they can't make bail. How in the hell did Bernie - and his supporters - not know any of this? He never even bothered to read her book, the seminal work on African American incarceration and discrimination that was one of THE major talking points surrounding his campaign?
Really?
I'm sorry, but if this is the first time you're hearing about any of this, it's because you just haven't been paying attention. That's fine.
But for a U.S. senator not know any of it is political and social malpractice, demonstrating that he is not ready for prime time.
And your excuse-making for him, frankly, just makes him look even more pathetic. He's SUPPOSED to know these things. And claiming that "well, no one ELSE was talking about hit {which isn't even true} so how could BERNIE be expected to know anything about it" is just laughable.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)sheshe2
(83,981 posts)It's been around since the emancipation proclamation. It was known as slavery by another name. Try reading the book by that name by Douglas Blackmon. It will open your eyes and I hope break your heart as it did mine.
As for your percentages, I do believe that their are far more POC and ally's than 5% that are aware. You insult a persons intelligence by saying only 5% of the population know what is happening in their lives and the history of abuse.
Slavery by Another Name began as an article which Blackmon wrote for The Wall Street Journal detailing the use of black forced labor by U.S. Steel Corporation. Seeing the popular response to the article, he began conducting research for a more comprehensive exploration of the topic. The resulting book was well received by critics and became a New York Times Best Seller. In 2009, it was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction. In 2012, it was adapted as a documentary film for PBS, also titled Slavery by Another Name.
"...as I began to research, even I, as someone who had been paying attention to some of these sorts of things for a long time and was open to alternative explanations, even I was fairly astonished when I put it together, basically by going county by county and finding the criminal arrest records and the jail records in county after county after county from this period of time and seeing that if there had been crime waves, there had to have been records of crimes and people being arrested for crimes. And in reality, it's just not there.
"There's no evidence that that ever happened. In fact, it's the opposite. The crime waves that occurred by and large were the aftermath of the war and whites coming back from fighting in the Civil War and settling scores with people and all sorts of renegade activity that didn't involve black people at all, but they were blamed for it, and that was then used as a kind of ruse for why these incredibly brutal new legal measures then began to be put in place."[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_by_Another_Name
kamalafan
(63 posts)I'm not insulting anybody at all. What I'm saying is that most people are unaware that you can be held in jail for debts unpaid or abloe to afford bail.
Man arrested by U.S. Marshals for unpaid student loan
http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/16/pf/college/arrested-student-loan-marshals/index.html
"A Texas man was arrested by U.S. Marshals last week for not paying his $1,500 federal student loan -- for 29 years.
Paul Aker was arrested at his home and later brought before a judge to sign a payment plan for a loan he said he borrowed in 1987.
"I was unaware of any outstanding debt," Aker told CNNMoney on Tuesday. "I paid two other student loans and thought I had consolidated everything and paid it all off."
The U.S. Marshals Service made several attempts to serve Aker with a court order requesting that he appear in federal court and searched numerous known addresses, the agency said in a statement. The Marshals Service said it spoke with him by phone in 2012 requesting he appear in court, but he refused."
There are many examples of this making a comeback and it's damn scary.
Slate had a really good article on how people who are poor are at the mercy of the courts and get locked up because they have no way of affording cash bail.
[link:http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/trials_and_error/2017/03/poor_defendants_get_locked_up_because_they_can_t_afford_cash_bail_here_s.html|http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/trials_and_error/2017/03/poor_defendants_get_locked_up_because_they_can_t_afford_cash_bail_here_s.html
]
Perhaps one of the most "in your face" articles is this one. It's brutal with what's happening and it MUST STOP.
Our Bail System Is Leaving Innocent People To Die In Jail Because They’re Poor
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2017/feb/24/our-bail-system-leaving-innocent-people-die-jail-because-theyre-poor/
"Of the nearly 750,000 inmates confined in jails around the U.S. at any time, between 60 and 70 percent haven’t been convicted. They are legally innocent. Jail deaths disproportionately impact poor defendants, according to a months-long investigation published by The Huffington Post this week, which documents more than 800 fatalities in the past year across the nation’s more than 3,000 city and local lockups. These facilities typically hold inmates who are awaiting trial or serving shorter sentences for misdemeanor offenses.
Our investigation also speaks to the issues jails face in caring for the people in their custody, many of whom stay incarcerated thanks in large part to a bail system that requires the accused to pay to get out of jail while they await their day in court. Most of the incidents we uncovered involved defendants who had not been found guilty of a crime, and were therefore legally innocent. They were only in jail because they couldn’t post bail.
Among those, we documented dozens of incidents where people died while facing low-level or nonviolent charges, like drug possession, traffic offenses or probation violations, which themselves may not have led to prison time. Many faced bail amounts ranging between a few hundred and few thousand dollars. In other cases, defendants were given high bail amounts for seemingly minor charges."
Sandra Bland, who died in custody a year ago this week, found herself in a similarly distressing situation after being arrested in Texas last summer, though she faced a more serious “assault” charge after being dragged out of her car and thrown on the ground by a police officer. Unable to pay her $5,000 bail ― or even a smaller percentage of that to cover a non-refundable bail bonds fee ― the 28-year-old black woman sat in a holding cell for days before allegedly hanging herself. If she’d have been wealthier, her fate might have been different.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)kamalafan
(63 posts)If they weren't, don't you think they'd be talking about it? They aren't.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I love how Bernie's supporters insist that he's SO special, SO different, SO unique, SO heads and shoulders above the mere mortals in politics. But when he shows himself to be clueless or incompetent or not quite so pure as he claims, their response is "but ... but ... but ... he's no different than the OTHERS!!!"
I call bullshit on this excuse. I don't care whether "most senators" are unaware of something. Bernie's not "most senators." He's a progressive senator claiming to be a civil rights champion who wants to be president of the United States who allowed his supporters to taunt and belittle TRUE champions because they didn't support him, whose supporters insist that Sanders deserves some special accolades because he protested for civil rights 50 years ago, yet, who is admitting he doesn't know a basic fact that has been covered and discussed and called out for years by the very people he wants to support him but obviously has never bothered to listen to or learn anything about.
sheshe2
(83,981 posts)Link to tweet
Evolution is a good thing. However
The idea that he hadn't changed since 1970 was sold as a positive (& was never accurate).
…
There was a lot of talk on a thread here a day or so ago about how positive it was that he has never had to change, because gosh darn he was always right and steadfast. In fact on that thread Obama and Hillary were trashed for evolving. Now here we are with Sanders 'evolution' and it is a wonderful and brilliant thing. I wonder why no other politician has thought to do that. Oh wait.
Do you see the spin and double standard here? Once again the rhetoric has changed and he is now a hero for 'evolving'. I wonder if an apology will be issued to Obama and Hill now...lol, never mind.
kamalafan
(63 posts)because nobody is going to find someone who hasn't evolved on issues so this whole thing seems rather odd to me and a bit blown out of proportion.
I missed that thread but it seems to me that people playing the "game" you mentioned are engaging in drama more than anything. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong here. *shrug*
sheshe2
(83,981 posts)Here and elsewhere on the net. It is not drama, it is divisive. Trash Obama and Hill for evolving. Praise Sanders for never having to evolve on any issue ever. Then when Sanders said an oopsie and attempts to correct it, his evolution is heaven sent. Amen.
mcar
(42,425 posts)the "fact" that he hasn't wavered in his positions and viewpoints, ever, makes him a strong leader. Other politicians whose viewpoints evolved have been derided as weak, among other perjoratives.
Now we're being told he was unaware of something he very much should have known but it's A OK because he's evolving.
sheshe2
(83,981 posts)I said the same above.
I am so sick of this shit. I am getting whiplash.
Cha
(297,877 posts)Mahalo, mcar
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)and "proof" of insincere pandering, and simply parroting Bernie to poach votes.
Or they have been "inspired" by Bernie, who seems to be the source from which all ethical and social justice theory originates.
When John Lewis and other congresspersons organized the sit-in for gun safety, and millenials on social media were gushing "Bernie gave them the courage to do this. Bernie has created the atmosphere where protest can flourish" made my jaw hit the floor. Especially when Sanders showed up long enough for photos to be taken.
But it shouldn't have after hearing John Lewis booed by Sanders supporters at the Convention, and were never, ever rebuked or even mentioned by Sanders for that.
I will never forget that.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)
spooky3
(34,508 posts)I guess it depends on what she means by "walking its streets."
According to this article, "Cobb says racial disparities in the inmate population in — one out of every 14 black men in Vermont are in jail — are more pronounced than in any other state in the country."
http://digital.vpr.net/post/vermont-aclu-looks-cut-states-prison-population-half#stream/0
Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)Too bad the article that the quote was taken from was actually a positive interview about Bernie written by Shaun King who focuses on civil and human rights, racial justice, mass incarceration, and law enforcement misconduct.
[link:https://theintercept.com/2018/06/14/bernie-sanders-criminal-justice-reform/|]
Soledad takes the quote out of context. Bernie was surprised about the overall number of African-Americans nationwide who were incarcerated because they couldn't afford bail and had not been convicted of a crime.He wasn't saying he was surprised that a disproportionate number of African-Americans are incarcerated.
Just realize that looking for division will not help our cause to elect Democrats in November or in 2020. It makes no sense to keep fighting the 2016 primaries. Keep mining though.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)all the papers about the police there. He didn’t bother to find out about Mike Brown’s life, either. He assumed he was not going back to school. Lots of ignorance in that.
Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)Tilting at windmills.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and neither does Sanders.
Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)Soledad O'Brien sends an ill informed tweet confusing two separate issues? That's not news.
chwaliszewski
(1,514 posts)The Bernie hate is strong here which is too bad, really.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Ok ....
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)Misrepresented, and criticized (inaccurately) based on that incorrect representation of what he said? Yes. Yes it is.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Nice try at deflection.
MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)cutting him some slack.
The great divider has earned every bit of scorn that comes his way.
chwaliszewski
(1,514 posts)The truth is that as an Independent, he regularly votes with the Democrats. I support him & the Dems. Conversely, I loathe the Republicans and their ilk. There's a big difference between Republican criticism of the Democratic party and that from an ally like Bernie but he is treated as if he's a Republican here at DU. I think that's a terrible mistake to be making.
MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)He votes regularly with Democrats because he uses the Democratic Party to stay in office. (but hey what about those Russian sanctions and gun control!?) Then he separates himself from Democrats and repeatedly flogs them publicly. All the while, he, his family and his pac make demands and continue to fuel a divide he created a couple years ago.
He isn't treated as a Republican. He is treated more like Nader. Another great divider.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)campaigns. Which is how I saw Sanders insult Michael Brown.
musette_sf
(10,206 posts)Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)That's why we have to stop the infighting.
musette_sf
(10,206 posts)
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Because their lives wouldn't be any worse off than under the Rump. There, that is some solid reasoning.
George II
(67,782 posts)
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,995 posts)Last edited Fri Jun 15, 2018, 09:03 AM - Edit history (1)
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)
Sid
George II
(67,782 posts)
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,995 posts)Haven't seen it in a long time. Might have to watch it this weekend.
JustAnotherGen
(31,979 posts)
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)
George II
(67,782 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)
betsuni
(25,728 posts)That's how old the hot sauce is.
Cha
(297,877 posts)
LiberalBob_in_MA
(34 posts)Did Bernie really say this?
Not familiar with the reliability/veracity of the "Intercept" -- but this seems a bit 'fishy' that Bernie would be so out of touch on this issue. What is the context they are quoting him from?
Maybe so, but the skeptical part of me smells BS hit job.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)They know that this will not sound in any way out of touch at all to anyone who reads their website unironically.
George II
(67,782 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)Soledad takes the quote out of context. Bernie was surprised about the overall number of African-Americans nationwide who were incarcerated because they couldn't afford bail and had not been convicted of a crime.He wasn't saying he was surprised that a disproportionate number of African-Americans are incarcerated.
LiberalBob_in_MA
(34 posts)something is being taken out of context here.
Thanx, Power 2 the people.
sheshe2
(83,981 posts)What 'something' is being taken out of context.
49. That's what I think as well
something is being taken out of context here.
Thanx, Power 2 the people.
https://theintercept.com/2018/06/14/bernie-sanders-criminal-justice-reform/
Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)This DU member already answered your question:
39. I would have expected more from Soledad O'Brian
Here from the source:
Black Vermonters make up just 1.2% of the state's general population, but 10.7% of its incarcerated population. This means that, proportionally, there are nearly 10 times more black people locked up in Vermont's jails and prisons on a given day than there are walking its streets.
https://mic.com/articles/124341/here-s-how-black-people-actually-fare-in-vermont-with-bernie-sanders-as-their-senator#.J1gNWTrWT
Note that the statement the comment she quotes leaves out the important word - proportionately. Left out, the sentence is completely untrue.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)She may not have fully quoted a RESPONSE to those comments, but that doesn’t affect what Bernie actually said, which she quoted accurately.
brush
(53,930 posts)It came out yesterday that he thought most drug dealers were African Americans.
Come on, it makes me feel we wasted all that time fighting a divisive campaign in '15-'16 on such a woefully uninformed (about a big part of the party's base) candidate.
Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)Bernie not knowing this statistic must be an indictment of his racial insensitivity. Who knows, maybe next he'll be referring to young African-Americans as super predators.
brush
(53,930 posts)Pls stop circulating misinformation.
Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)PS. I never mentioned Clinton in my post. We don't speak ill of Democrats on this board.
brush
(53,930 posts)Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)Cha
(297,877 posts)brush
(53,930 posts)Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)uponit7771
(90,370 posts)lapucelle
(18,372 posts)of what's happening in his/her home state?
Vermont has one of the worst track records when it comes to the criminal justice system. According to Vermonters for Criminal Justice Reform (VCJR) white people are equally as likely to be involved with drugs as black people are, yet, “on average, black and brown people are incarcerated in Vermont state prisons at a rate 5.1 times higher the imprisonment of whites. Vermont has a higher rate of incarceration of black and brown men than any other state. 1 in 14 black and brown men in the state of Vermont are incarcerated.”
“Drug laws exist to police people of color,” said Joanna Colwell, a community activist. “That is a national issue, though, not just a Vermont issue. It’s a double whammy: the law itself is racist and then you have those racist laws implemented in a way that is even more unfair to people of color.”
According to the 2010 census, while only 1.1 percent of Vermont’s population is black, blacks make up 10.7 percent of the Vermont prison population.
https://middleburycampus.com/37955/local/vermonts-criminal-justice-system-a-series-unveiling-challenges-practices/
http://justiceforallvt.org/2017/02/06/788/
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts) 
leftstreet
(36,117 posts)Cha
(297,877 posts)been pro BS. I'm surprised they're reporting on this.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)
karynnj
(59,507 posts)Here from the source:
Black Vermonters make up just 1.2% of the state's general population, but 10.7% of its incarcerated population. This means that, proportionally, there are nearly 10 times more black people locked up in Vermont's jails and prisons on a given day than there are walking its streets.
https://mic.com/articles/124341/here-s-how-black-people-actually-fare-in-vermont-with-bernie-sanders-as-their-senator#.J1gNWTrWT
Note that the statement the comment she quotes leaves out the important word - proportionately. Left out, the sentence is completely untrue.
mythology
(9,527 posts)More than can be said for those here who claim the tweet was "schooling" Sanders. It's easy to "school" somebody when you just make things up. Sadly some people refuse to admit that they are wrong because it fits their agenda.
Cha
(297,877 posts)Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)Why are we applauding the dissemination of misinformation?
November 2018 is too important. We need to come together and support all who are Democrats and caucus with the Democrats.
Cha
(297,877 posts)Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)Sounds like something Jerome Corsi would say.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,123 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Combine that with the general ignorance of white Americans and it's no wonder Bernie is so clueless.
aeromanKC
(3,330 posts)Pass the torch already!!
Wwcd
(6,288 posts)
Such a great pass!!
Wwcd
(6,288 posts)Scroll down right below this Steinam quote.
The women in the pic are each named & honored for their courage & historic contributions.
A Good Read! 
“The story of women’s struggle for equality belongs to no single feminist nor to any one organization but to the collective efforts of all who care about human rights.” – Gloria Steinem
Meet The 12 Women Of Feminism At Work
http://womenyoushouldknow.net/inspired-illustration-feminism-work-pays-tribute-pioneers-moved-womens-history-forward/
aeromanKC
(3,330 posts)It takes a village, eh. I also like the swing in the pendulum and how successful women have been in recent elections Nationwide. Both at the local and state levels. It's happening.
Wwcd
(6,288 posts)I am so proud of what we are becoming in this next phase of the history of feminism.
We will care for the world.
Cool huh!
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,123 posts)brush
(53,930 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,123 posts)You might want to enlighten YOURSELF on this topic. Surely you know Hillary has said, fairly recently, that she "doesn't know“ if she would run again for President in 2020. She has been quoted also as having said that she has "no plans" to run again... leaving the door well ajar for another run. Hell, EVERY prospective candidate for President in 2020 currently has "no PLANS" right now to run... that doesn't foreclose such plans in the future. So, no "torch" has been passed.
There, consider yourself enlightened.
brush
(53,930 posts)attractive, progressive candidates for 2020.
We don't need any candidates with "been there, done that" baggage, especially one with the added baggage of "constinual party-attacking divisiveness".
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,123 posts)she doesn't know if she would run for President again, and currently has "no plans" to do so, as recently as a few months ago? Sure sounds like she's leaving the door open for another run.
brush
(53,930 posts)aeromanKC
(3,330 posts)After Trump and Pence are Impeached, Hillary, who has been chosen to be the new Speaker of the House after the Dems take back the House becomes Madam President. So now, while having NO plans at this time to run in 2020, she will be the Nominee in 2020 if not primaried.
But with that silly but possible scenario, I can't believe anyone would back Hillary in 2020. NOT Me!!! (even though I was a hundred million zillion percent behind her in 2016.)
dsc
(52,170 posts)what is actually true is that blacks are 10 times more likely to be locked up than whites that isn't the same as saying that something like 90% of black people are locked up (that would be a 90 to 10 split). I get her point but she should be more careful in her use of math.
karynnj
(59,507 posts)out of state. Because Vermont is whiter than other states near it, this means the ratio of those percents can not be used to measure the relative probability of a Vermont black being incarcerated vs a Vermont Caucasian. Where the numerator reflects the people in prison - both instaters and out of staters, the denominators reflect just the instate population.
dsc
(52,170 posts)yes, both New York and Massachusetts have a way greater proportion of black population than Vermont but the parts of those states which border Vermont don't.
drray23
(7,638 posts)I am not a politician and I knew that. It has been discussed many times in the press, on the internet, etc.. and the information is there for those who follow politics. You would think a former candidate for president would be informed of that.
brer cat
(24,629 posts)
barbtries
(28,815 posts)i'm reading the New Jim Crow.
trump is president.
this is not the greatest country.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)And on this website, it says 0.5% of Vermont residents are African-American.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/comprehensive-census-data-state/demographic-statistics-298
The incarceration of African-Americans can't be a big problem or a common problem or at least not a problem that gets much attention in Vermont because the population of African-Americans in Vermont is very small. Even if the percentage of African-Americans in Vermont who are incarcerated because of poverty is relatively high among that population, very few people are affected compared to other states.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Imprisonment by Race/Ethnicity (2014)
White imprisonment rate (per 100,000)225
Black imprisonment rate (per 100,000)2,357
https://www.sentencingproject.org/the-facts/#map
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)Therefore, while the rate of incarceration may be high, not very many people are affected by it. The black imprisonment rate would be per 1,000 about 23 or 24 people. Multiply by 3 and you get at most 80 people.
It's too many, but it is not a major problem for the state.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/comprehensive-census-data-state/demographic-statistics-298
My math. The imprisonment rate is 2,357 per 100,000 or 235.7 per 10,000 or 23.57 per 1,000. There are 3,000 plus 63 African-Americans in Vermont per Info please, so you multiply 23.57 X 3 and you get maybe 75-80 people.
That is not a very large number. Especially compared to other states.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)It's a problem no matter how small the number is since it far outpaces white incarceration.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)Bernie is a senator at the federal level.
What changes in the laws at the federal level would you suggest that could improve the situation for African-Americans with regard to imprisonment in state and local facilities in Vermont?
Note that overall, African-Americans in Vermont are more likely to own their houses than white people in Vermont and better educated than white people in Vermont. So the fact that more African-Americans are in prison is very strange.
Please see my post # 186 for the links on these statistics.
Demsrule86
(68,735 posts)population because not that 'many' are affected by it'...I am seriously speechless. Civil rights if for everyone even in a small white white state with low population of POC.
"Black Vermonters make up just 1.2% of the state's general population, but 10.7% of its incarcerated population. This means that, proportionally, there are nearly 10 times more black people locked up in Vermont's jails and prisons on a given day than there are walking its streets.
Few criminal justice scholars or workers in Vermont seem able to explain how this happened. The black incarceration rate grew faster here than in any other in the state between 1993 and 2007, before it leveled out and stayed relatively constant. But shortly before its peak, the Sentencing Project reported that Vermont had the second-highest black-to-white incarceration rate in America — topped only by Iowa, another state with a small black population"
https://mic.com/articles/124341/here-s-how-black-people-actually-fare-in-vermont-with-bernie-sanders-as-their-senator#.7DKyIxw7V
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)But because it affects very few individuals, it goes unnoticed.
The same problem exists in larger states, say California, but here, it affects so many people that it is noticeable.
Further, most of these prisoners are probably in state prisons or local jails.
The OP is critical of Bernie Sanders, a senator who works in D.C. at the federal level. While civil rights and equality for African-Americans are issues at all levels, federal, state and local, the laws that are being imposed inequitably on African-Americans are probably state and local, not federal. Bernie is probably more aware of the impact of federal laws and better able to work to change those. He doesn't have a lot of ability to change state and local laws. And he probably does not meet a lot of African-Americans whose family members are incarcerated.
According to the charts at this website, only 200 people, white or Hispanic or African-American, from Vermont are in federal prison. So this is a state problem. 2,000 are in state prisons. This is a state problem. It needs to be dealt with, but it is not specifically a federal problem.
What change in federal law would you suggest that could affect the incarceration rate of African-Americans in Vermont? Remember. Government deals with laws, and sometimes it is difficult to deal with a social problem with changing laws.
Also, here is some good news about the status of African-Americans in Vermont:
49. Vermont
> Pct. residents black: 0.9% (3rd lowest)
> Black homeownership rate: 24.6% (9th lowest)
> Black incarceration rate: 2,214 per 100,000 (19th lowest)
> Black unemployment rate: N/A
Vermont is the only state in which a larger share of African American adults have graduated from college than white adults. Across the state, 37.0% of African American adults have at least a bachelor’s degree — the highest share of any state — and higher than the 35.1% of white residents with similar educational attainment. Additionally, the difference in incomes between white and black residents is the smallest in the country. The typical African American household in Vermont earns $50,933 annually, the third most of any state and about $4,000 less than the state’s typical white household. By comparison, the national income gap between white and black Americans is roughly $24,000.
Vermont is one of just two states that allows citizens incarcerated on a felony charge to vote while in prison. As a result, Vermont effectively has no legally disenfranchised black Americans, compared to roughly one in every 13 African Americans nationwide. By contrast, over half-a-million black individuals living in Florida are disenfranchised.
https://vermontbiz.com/news/august/black-americans-better-vermont-most-states
Demsrule86
(68,735 posts)There are move Black folks in jail than walking the streets...think about that according to the article I posted
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)And across the country.
Demsrule86
(68,735 posts) Sophia4
(3,515 posts)Black Vermonters make up just 1.2% of the state's general population, but 10.7% of its incarcerated population. This means that, proportionally, there are nearly 10 times more black people locked up in Vermont's jails and prisons on a given day than there are walking its streets.
https://mic.com/articles/124341/here-s-how-black-people-actually-fare-in-vermont-with-bernie-sanders-as-their-senator#.gGLBeOHxn
A large percentage of African-Americans who live in Vermont are incarcerated.
But because so few African-Americans live in Vermont, it does not affect very many people.
In other words, the percentage of African-Americans in Vermont is very high among that population, but so few African-Americans live in Vermont, that this troubling statistic does not affect very many individuals.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)He has no idea of what's going on in his own state.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)Sophia4
(3,515 posts)The statistic per 100,000 is correct, but it does not tell the story.
There are nowhere near 100,000 African-
Americans in Vermont.
I have found various numbers for the number of African-Americans in Vermont.
Here is the number from the census bureau for 2017 --623,657 people in Vermont of which 1.3% or around 7,005 are African-American.
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/VT/AGE775216or
I find various numbers, but if the incarceration rate is 2,357 per 100,000, the actual number of people imprisoned is low. And some of them may be imprisoned because of an actually high crime rate. Just looking at numbers does not tell the whole story.
Also, this is primarily a state issue, not a federal issue that Bernie would prioritize.
It is still far too many African-Americans in prison. I agree about that. But there is no reason to exaggerate or to blame it on Bernie. There are a lot of people in Vermont who should be doing something about this problem which I agree may be very serious.
George II
(67,782 posts)That's 304 whites per 100,000 residents, 3797 blacks per 100,000.
And Vermont has the second highest black to white incarceration ration in the country, second only to Iowa.
These numbers are 10 years old but the rate hasn't changed much over the years. In fact, back when this report was published Vermont was 4th, now up to 2nd.
http://www.sentencingproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Uneven-Justice-State-Rates-of-Incarceration-by-Race-and-Ethnicity.pdf
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)3797 per 100,000 residents, and you have only (I have read different numbers on this) 6,139 African American residents of Vermont. That is no where near 100,000.
it is about .06 percent of 100,000. So .06 percent of 3797 is maybe 226 individuals. The excess imprisonment (under state not federal law most likely) is not all 226 or so because a certain amount of the imprisonment can be due to a higher crime rate.
I have found different numbers on this issue on different websites. I am not an expert on it. But numbers per 100,000 gives an exaggerated idea of the number of individuals out of a group of between 6,139 and 3,063 (approximate, depending on the website you use as a source) is not 3,797, not by a long shot.
"The census shows the number of black Vermonters has doubled in the past 15 years. Then again, the actual figures rose from 3,063 in the year 2000 to 6,435 today — up from 0.5 percent to 1 percent of the state’s roughly 626,000 residents."
https://statisticalatlas.com/state/Vermont/Race-and-Ethnicity
https://www.infoplease.com/us/comprehensive-census-data-state/demographic-statistics-298
https://vtdigger.org/2016/01/17/is-vermont-the-whitest-state-in-the-union/
The vtdigger has the highest statistic for African-Americans in Vermont at 6,435.
Hard to say but it is clear that in spite of the high incarceration rate, the statistics on African-Americans in Vermont are going up.
As for the prison, jail statistics, we would need to know what the people are in prison for.
I am very opposed to imprisoning African-Americans at higher rates than whites, but when not many people are involved, and that is the case in a state with a small population like Vermont, it may not be a problem that gets a lot of attention. It is likely that many, many people in Vermont have been unaware of the problem. The fact that the ratio is so disadvantageous to African-Americans suggests that this is a problem that has been ignored for a long time.
I am not taking issue with the fact that it is a problem, an important problem. I am taking issue with the fact that, of all the politicians in Vermont, especially those active at the state level and able to change the state laws and state enforcement that causes this injustice and disparity, the OP criticizes Bernie about it.
Bernie is a federal senator. He deals with federal law. It's great that he is the clear voice for social justice that he is.
But the problem, and it is a serious one although it does not result in the incarceration of over 3,000 individuals, is not Bernie's. It is the problem of the state politicians and law enforcement in Vermont. Bernie is not among them. He may be able to help deal with the problem, but he is not to blame for it.
George II
(67,782 posts)That "per 100,000" isn't with respect to ALL residents, it's with respect to residents of the two races under discussion. There aren't 100,000 black residents in Vermont, there are only 8,000, so the number of blacks in prison in Vermont (about 300) has to be multiplied by 12.5 to get a "per 100,000" rate (100,000 / 8,000 = 12.5).
That's how to get to the two numbers in the report - about 300 per 100,000 for whites, and about 3700 per 100,000 for blacks - 11 times the rate.
Let's look at it in raw numbers rather than "rate".
There are 625,000 residents in Vermont
There are 595,000 white residents in Vermont, 2,000 of which are in prison.
There are 8,000 black residents in Vermont, 300 of which are in prison.
So:
The % of white residents in prison is 0.3% of all white residents (2,000 / 595,000 )
The % of black residents in prison is 3.7% of all black residents (300 / 8,000 )
That 3.7% is the previously mentioned 11X the number of black residents that are in prison.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)The numbers I found on the internet are considerably lower.
I gave the links. If the number of African-Americans in Vermont has increased that quickly in recent years, it may explain some of the lack of awareness of a problem.
Something here doesn't make sense. I agree with you about how to figure the rate.
The rate of African-Americans in prison in Vermont is far too high. But the number of individuals affected, compared to a state like California where the rate may be lower (I don't know because I haven't done the numbers), but the problem very noticeable because so many, many people are affected.
George II
(67,782 posts)Population July 1, 2017 - 623,657
White alone 94.6% - 590,603
Black or AA 1.3% - 8,107
The rate of AA in prison in Vermont is the second highest in the United States. Other than the fact that they're in prison, I don't care about the "number" affected, I care about what portion of those who are AA are affected.
So, if you're only worried about the number affected, if ALL 8,107 blacks in Vermont were in prison you wouldn't be as concerned because in California 39,500 blacks are in prison, more than in Vermont? Not to worry about the fact that there are only 623,000 people in Vermont and 40 MILLION in California?
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)number gets. It would not be as widely known.
This thread, to my understanding, is about how Bernie had to be schooled about the plight of imprisoned African-Americans in Vermont, not about the terrible problem of our having a far too high percentage of Americans and especially African-Americans in prison across our country.
In every state, we need to change our laws to do something about this problem. Vermont is, percentage wise, one of the worst states in this respect. But it is much better for African-Americans in some other respects, such as the numbers of very well educated African-Americans in Vermont.
I just objected to the singling out and blaming of Bernie.
If you have not watched the movie I mention in my signature line, please do. It is on the very topic of the abuses ain our prisons.
This is an important topic to me, whether in Vermont or California. Our prisons are a scandal that goes unmentioned far too often. Please watch the film I mention in my signature line (it is available on Netflix and perhaps elsewhere). Thanks.
aikoaiko
(34,185 posts) dlk
(11,585 posts)cynatnite
(31,011 posts)The stats are easy to find.
Imprisonment by Race/Ethnicity (2014)
White imprisonment rate (per 100,000)225
Black imprisonment rate (per 100,000)2,357
https://www.sentencingproject.org/the-facts/#map
mcar
(42,425 posts)Clueless.
betsuni
(25,728 posts)"Taken out of context" evidently has acquired a new meaning. Also in this thread, the Whatabout Bingo words "super predator" and "hot sauce."
kcr
(15,320 posts)Bernie isn't listening. He isn't part of the national conversation. So, don't even bother with him. You heard it here, folks. No wonder he's so clueless on this stuff.
Response to EffieBlack (Original post)
redgreenandblue This message was self-deleted by its author.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)can pull a statement completely out of context to dramatize the "revelation" that a white Democrat/left-of-center politician (get over it) lacks the depth of understanding of the urban genocide being perpetrated through our criminal justice system to express their outrage without tripping over their own tongue.
What is surprising is that there are people who actually believe that ANY white Democrat/left-of-center politician does have that depth of understanding. (Some folks seriously need to read what Michael Harriot says about Wypipo and not the bastardized discussion used here.) It is also surprising how many people have chosen to attack the only one among this group who is regularly speaking to a national audience on the subject. What message do you think it sends to the people most affected by the nationwide Parchman Plantation that is the federal criminal justice system to hear folks spend 99.9% of their time talking about Comey and Putin attempting to silence the only person regularly talking about how they are still being put in chains?
Could it be that this isn't about them at all?
disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)
Oh, & by the way....
"Thanks to @soledadobrien for deleting the inaccurate tweet about Vermont and Bernie."
Link to tweet
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Apology forthcoming?
ProfessorGAC
(65,301 posts)I don't think we'll see either.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)She quoted him accurately.
“I really didn’t know this was happening. I had no idea hundreds of thousands of Americans, particularly African-Americans, were being held in jail, for months or years, even though they’ve never been convicted of a crime, simply because they can’t afford bail.”
You’re ok with what he said?
https://theintercept.com/2018/06/14/bernie-sanders-criminal-justice-reform/
R B Garr
(16,999 posts)context, they are a disturbing glimpse into his uninformed mindset, while simultaneously passing himself as a civil rights leader. All our suspicions confirmed —-again.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Soledad wrong Apology forthcoming?"
Her dire sin is almost as bad as calling 'delusional' those who believed Roy Moore would lose.
But I get it... holding others to a higher standard than ourselves is part and parcel of our personal, and ethically convenient pathways towards absolution.
Quixote1818
(29,002 posts)Purple Mountain Maje
(41 posts)No point in continuing a debunked thread.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts) Purple Mountain Maje
(41 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)She didn't fully contextualize the commends of someone who responded to his quote. But she quoted Bernie accurately - q - it's exactly what he said.
I know it's frustrating for some Bernie supporters to have to try to defend him after he puts his foot in his mouth - and sometimes all they can come up with is to attack people who call him on it (as in characterizing presentation of exact quotes as "Bernie hate"
.
The bottom line is that Bernie Sanders committed the ultimate gaffe - he said what he meant and what he meant reflects terribly on him. He admitted that he's completely clueless about an issue of tremendous importance, not only to the African-American community, but to anyone who cares about and is interested in social justice in America. No one tricked him into saying it. No one misquoted him. No one twisted his words. He said what he said and it is what it is. And attacking Soledad or anyone who else who calls him on it only makes his defenders look silly.
Gothmog
(145,736 posts)jalan48
(13,905 posts)KitSileya
(4,035 posts)authored a bill that specifically helps women or people of color. That says something about him as a politician, I think. At what it says won't win him the support of the base of the party.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I've looked on his dot-gov page, but there's nothing there that I can easily find.
All I can say about that is that he must be a VERY humble man. All I'm trying to say is that most presidential candidates (even the "undeclared" ones) like to have a page that brags on their accomplishments, even a low-key page.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)yet end up sinking Bernie for using the worst clickbait quote possible...
Jesus H. Christ how is a news outlet with practically unlimited funding and resources this much of an amateur hour shitshow? Remember the good old days when the Intercept was going to be THE game-changer to completely redefine journalism??
niyad
(113,693 posts)populistdriven
(5,644 posts)GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)Revealing? Yes.
The false implication of the original tweet (the one repeated by many here) remains, i.e., that Sanders is more oblivious when it comes to the (historical AND current) impact of the justice system on black people (or is less concerned about it) than every single other white prominent Democratic and/or left-of center politician/former politician even hinting at seeking national office (and far too many non-white prominent Democratic and/or left-of center politician/former politicians). What's more, the excuses made for singling out a single politician (e.g., if he's going to talk about the criminal justice system and race, he needs to respect the problem enough to not to fuck up the numbers when he speaks) exposes the MUCH GREATER problem that the establishment politicians AREN'T TALKING ABOUT IT AT ALL, or, when they do, they spew out platitudes like we heard in 2015 about how the FBOP's surplus of black inmates serving inhumanely long sentences is because our drug laws have swept up people THEY describe as "non-violent" and "first offenders"
Sorry folks, the reason so many black and brown inmates are facing inhumane prison sentences is because establishment politicians (like the ones escaping any criticism) have defined "dangerous offenders" in such a way that it includes virtually anyone involved in drugs AND the drug crimes being prosecuted in federal court are almost all being prosecuted against black and brown males. What's more, not only are these definitions being left untouched, they are actually being cheered.
There are two main vehicles in the federal system for imposing these bullshit sentences.
The first is the ACCA. Basically what it says is that if (1) you have two prior convictions for a "violent" crime (and, btw, the prior crime doesn't have to actually involve violence, it just has to be defined by ***** legislators as "violent." ) OR FOR A PRIOR DRUG CRIME; and (2) you possess a gun in a subsequent crime (don't even have to use it), you will not see the street until you are an old man. In case folks don't know it (and for most there is no reason they would), let me say, "If you're dealing drugs (even at the street level) in the places where the cops are targeting, you better f-ing well carry a gun." If that shocks your sensibilities, I apologize, but it's the truth.
So, when someone says out of one side of their mouth that they "care" about black folks serving outrageously long sentences, while out of the other side of their mouth say that we need to be tough on guns so we need the ACCA, what they are REALLY saying is either "We don't care about black people serving outrageous prison sentences and we think you're stupid" OR they are saying "We are even more oblivious than Sanders about why there are so many black people in federal prison."
The second is the "non-binding" (but they really are from a practical standpoint) Career Offender Guidelines. Under the Career Offender Guidelines, persons with two prior violent felonies OR felony drug convictions who are caught delivering as little as 5 grams of rock are looking at sentences so long they will probably die in prison. Hmm, now what do a hugely disproportionate percentage of the people who BOTH qualify for "Career Offender" AND get targeted by the cops look like? Do I have to answer?
So, as with the first vehicle for putting black folks back in chains, when someone says out of one side of their mouth that they "care" about black folks serving outrageously long sentences, while out of the other side of their mouth say that need to go easy on "first offenders" and then cheer harsh sentences for repeat offenders what they are REALLY saying is either "We don't care about black people serving outrageous prison sentences and we think you're stupid" OR they are saying "We are even more oblivious than Sanders about why there are so many black people in federal prison."
Those of us who remember what was said in 2015, and who actually know about what fuels urban genocide, know Sanders is not alone when it comes to not feeling what we are facing, but at least he's trying to get educated. We also know that what was said in 2015 was just a dressed up version of what was said in 2008 and before.
We are the "Armed Career Criminals"
We are the "Career Offenders"
We are the "Super-predators"
Find another prop.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)It doesn’t change one whit the fact that Bernie Sanders is a sanctimonious, out-of-touch “Establishment” politician who positions himself as a courageous, cutting-edge, civil rights champion despite not knowing or bothering to learn jack squat about many issues of great importance to African Americans, including - as he himself admits - the incarceration crisis facing African-American men.
Nothing you say, no matter how much you say it, obscures that fact.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)can obscure why those black and brown men are in federal prison for decades in the first place AND how politicians who talk like first timers and white-defined "non-violent offenders" are the only victims of our past mistakes are just throwing away the key.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)and, not only because, by his own admission, he didn’t even know some of these problems existed until a couple of years ago and now finds himself in small backstage rooms begging an activist fan to tell him what he can do to help.
GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)But I have to question how anyone can say it's any worse than the status quo where issues like punishing gun offenders and being tough on gangs/drugs etc. push black incarceration to the back burner.
It's a tough situation. Obama was the best because his heart was in it and by his second term he was done taking shit from . . . yea, I'm sure you knew already . . . Wypipo
Take care
Response to GaryCnf (Reply #211)
George II This message was self-deleted by its author.
George II
(67,782 posts)GaryCnf
(1,399 posts)Not only was context provided by 2008, I specifically addressed how the speakers at the 2015 event displayed similar ignorance regarding who is serving these unspeakably long drug and gun sentences and how proposed solutions which may sound true to what Michael Harriot described as Wypipo are just white noise to the people who are being victimized.
I will give that it is pretty close to ridiculous to treat Sanders as some sort of civil rights champion for what he did 50 years ago, or the fact that he is trying to learn now. But it's equally ridiculous to claim that politicians fighting for first offenders and (what Wypipo define as) "non-violent offenders" are any better.
Maybe it's time for warring groups of Wypipo to quit using black and brown faces looking at 20 years plus to life in federal prison that neither side has lifted a finger to help (or, to be honest, CAN lift a finger to help in an essentially racist country that STILL falls for "Wille Horton" ) and to find something to bash the other side that is more credible than claiming that there is a meaningful difference between mainstream (and yes I am including Sanders too) liberals when it comes to this issue.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)He saw all the support she got from AA leaders.
I have to wonder if this is evolving or political expediency for a 2020 run.
It's not like it's been pointed out to him before.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)
George II
(67,782 posts)
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)What I'm trying to say is this... in the face of those who want to silence you, you have persisted... you've persevered... and I admire you for that.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts) 
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)Why stir the pot? I supported Bernie for his message. He is history. Do you wish a similar fate for the Democratic Party?
Division is now on my radar, not Madame Clinton, BLM or all that I believe in. I dread every message that divides US Democrats.
Flame away, dear fair weather friends, imo
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Anyone who would be less likely to support the Democratic nominee because someone quoted something Bernie said isn’t a true Democrat.
Not mentioning anything that Bernie says because it might embarrass some of his supporters doesn’t prevent divisions any more than not mentioning race because it makes some people uncomfortable makes racism go away.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Using Bernie's own words is "stirring the pot" against him?
And playing the martyr certainly doesn't give your statements any credibility.
