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Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:10 PM

 

Please stop calling Dems "weak" because we don't have many options for stopping Supreme Court nomine

This is not a sign of weakness. Itís arithmetic. We just donít have the numbers. And we donít have the White House.

And we donít have the numbers because too many of us decided to ďteach Obama a lessonĒ by not voting in 2010 and 2014, thereby paving the way for Republicans to take majority control of the Senate.

We donít have the White House because, while Republicans saw the federal courts as so all-important they were willing to stand by the most corrupt, hateful, unfit and unqualified presidential candidate in history, too many Democrats didnít think the federal courts were important to vote for a candidate they saw as less than perfect (ďShe WAS a flawed candidate, after all ...Ē).

It was not a failure of leadership or our partyís ďweaknessĒ that put us in this situation.

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Reply Please stop calling Dems "weak" because we don't have many options for stopping Supreme Court nomine (Original post)
EffieBlack Jul 2018 OP
Kentonio Jul 2018 #1
leftstreet Jul 2018 #3
JI7 Jul 2018 #4
Kentonio Jul 2018 #8
Trumpocalypse Jul 2018 #175
Wwcd Jul 2018 #12
JI7 Jul 2018 #14
Kentonio Jul 2018 #22
Wwcd Jul 2018 #28
Kentonio Jul 2018 #43
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #97
KitSileya Jul 2018 #85
Kentonio Jul 2018 #87
treestar Jul 2018 #126
Kentonio Jul 2018 #143
bettyellen Jul 2018 #151
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #98
whopis01 Jul 2018 #138
Hortensis Jul 2018 #184
betsuni Jul 2018 #83
treestar Jul 2018 #123
Kentonio Jul 2018 #125
treestar Jul 2018 #130
Kentonio Jul 2018 #142
whopis01 Jul 2018 #139
Cha Jul 2018 #62
Wwcd Jul 2018 #65
Cha Jul 2018 #67
Wwcd Jul 2018 #71
Cha Jul 2018 #72
treestar Jul 2018 #121
sheshe2 Jul 2018 #19
Cha Jul 2018 #64
qazplm135 Jul 2018 #27
Kentonio Jul 2018 #44
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #99
qazplm135 Jul 2018 #206
Kentonio Jul 2018 #207
qazplm135 Jul 2018 #208
Kentonio Jul 2018 #209
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #212
Cha Jul 2018 #60
Cha Jul 2018 #58
Eko Jul 2018 #61
Kentonio Jul 2018 #63
Eko Jul 2018 #66
Kentonio Jul 2018 #74
Eko Jul 2018 #81
JI7 Jul 2018 #84
Eko Jul 2018 #173
Eko Jul 2018 #69
Kentonio Jul 2018 #73
Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2018 #109
betsuni Jul 2018 #113
Eko Jul 2018 #167
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #168
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #101
certainot Jul 2018 #76
Kentonio Jul 2018 #80
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #102
certainot Jul 2018 #116
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #137
certainot Jul 2018 #145
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #146
kcr Jul 2018 #89
Kentonio Jul 2018 #94
kcr Jul 2018 #100
Kentonio Jul 2018 #119
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #105
BlueWI Jul 2018 #181
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #103
betsuni Jul 2018 #104
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #95
treestar Jul 2018 #120
Kentonio Jul 2018 #122
Act_of_Reparation Jul 2018 #129
Kentonio Jul 2018 #141
stevenleser Jul 2018 #144
Act_of_Reparation Jul 2018 #164
Locrian Jul 2018 #154
yurbud Jul 2018 #166
Trumpocalypse Jul 2018 #172
Lordquinton Jul 2018 #201
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #211
RandySF Jul 2018 #2
Kentonio Jul 2018 #10
JI7 Jul 2018 #11
Kentonio Jul 2018 #25
Wwcd Jul 2018 #35
Kentonio Jul 2018 #45
R B Garr Jul 2018 #47
betsuni Jul 2018 #78
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #106
Civic Justice Jul 2018 #152
Cha Jul 2018 #68
treestar Jul 2018 #127
Kentonio Jul 2018 #140
treestar Jul 2018 #153
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2018 #174
sheshe2 Jul 2018 #176
Wwcd Jul 2018 #5
TheRealNorth Jul 2018 #33
JI7 Jul 2018 #6
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #16
leftstreet Jul 2018 #7
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #17
sheshe2 Jul 2018 #18
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #42
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #107
treestar Jul 2018 #128
yardwork Jul 2018 #189
treestar Jul 2018 #197
yardwork Jul 2018 #198
JI7 Jul 2018 #9
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #108
JI7 Jul 2018 #13
stonecutter357 Jul 2018 #15
BlueTsunami2018 Jul 2018 #20
Orangepeel Jul 2018 #21
BlueTsunami2018 Jul 2018 #23
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #26
pnwmom Jul 2018 #32
ArchTeryx Jul 2018 #40
JI7 Jul 2018 #51
pelerin Jul 2018 #55
BlueTsunami2018 Jul 2018 #75
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #24
pnwmom Jul 2018 #31
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #34
betsuni Jul 2018 #52
BlueTsunami2018 Jul 2018 #77
pnwmom Jul 2018 #86
BlueTsunami2018 Jul 2018 #88
LenaBaby61 Jul 2018 #132
kcr Jul 2018 #96
leftstreet Jul 2018 #57
Crunchy Frog Jul 2018 #82
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #110
BlueTsunami2018 Jul 2018 #124
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #135
BlueTsunami2018 Jul 2018 #165
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #171
pnwmom Jul 2018 #29
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #111
greatauntoftriplets Jul 2018 #30
secondwind Jul 2018 #36
radius777 Jul 2018 #37
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #38
radius777 Jul 2018 #48
pelerin Jul 2018 #56
Raster Jul 2018 #117
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #147
Raster Jul 2018 #90
BlueWI Jul 2018 #182
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #112
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #148
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #149
melman Jul 2018 #150
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #156
amywalk Jul 2018 #39
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #41
BeyondGeography Jul 2018 #46
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #157
Recursion Jul 2018 #115
betsuni Jul 2018 #118
BlueWI Jul 2018 #183
Recursion Jul 2018 #193
BlueWI Jul 2018 #214
BlueWI Jul 2018 #185
Recursion Jul 2018 #194
BlueWI Jul 2018 #215
BigmanPigman Jul 2018 #49
fescuerescue Jul 2018 #50
Thekaspervote Jul 2018 #53
applegrove Jul 2018 #54
betsuni Jul 2018 #59
pelerin Jul 2018 #70
RandySF Jul 2018 #79
Oneironaut Jul 2018 #136
NurseJackie Jul 2018 #91
Vinca Jul 2018 #92
Demsrule86 Jul 2018 #93
Orsino Jul 2018 #114
treestar Jul 2018 #131
mcar Jul 2018 #133
Gothmog Jul 2018 #134
cloudythescribbler Jul 2018 #155
Gothmog Jul 2018 #162
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #170
Gothmog Jul 2018 #180
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #187
Gothmog Jul 2018 #190
Recursion Jul 2018 #195
Hekate Jul 2018 #204
Jakes Progress Jul 2018 #158
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #160
Gothmog Jul 2018 #163
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #169
Jakes Progress Jul 2018 #191
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #196
Jakes Progress Jul 2018 #199
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #200
Jakes Progress Jul 2018 #205
eleny Jul 2018 #159
Gothmog Jul 2018 #161
Raster Jul 2018 #192
Crutchez_CuiBono Jul 2018 #177
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #178
Crutchez_CuiBono Jul 2018 #179
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #186
Crutchez_CuiBono Jul 2018 #188
GulfCoast66 Jul 2018 #202
EffieBlack Jul 2018 #203
Gothmog Jul 2018 #210
pnwmom Jul 2018 #213

Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:18 PM

1. Blaming the voters is a losing proposition

 

When voters donít turn out, that is absolutely a failure of leadership and weakness on our part. We HAVE to stop acting as if weíre owed votes. Either we convince the country they should go to the polls for us, or else we will lose over and over again.

Yes weíre the good guys. And it doesnít mean a damn unless we can sell our message effectively.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:21 PM

3. +1

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:22 PM

4. Democrats did get more votes

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Response to JI7 (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:25 PM

8. No, we got more votes for the presidency

 

The reason weíre screwed when it comes to stopping the SCOTUS pick is because we didnít get enough votes for all those senate seats that would have made a difference. Weíve lost a shocking number of seats at various levels over the last decade and it needs to stop now.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #8)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 10:29 PM

175. Actually got more voters for Senate too

 

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:30 PM

12. When voters don't turn out it is the fault of the voter.

 

They can play on their phone, sitting on their sofa till someone comes by to drive them to register & vote & stand there & wait to be told who to vote for, or they can give a shit about their 'precious & fragile freedoms' enough to know the candidates, or they can risk losing it.

When there are only 2 final candidates to choose from and no homework has been done to make that choice simple, then we get Dotard & a fascist SC.
Its pretty much that.


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Response to Wwcd (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:34 PM

14. Yup. On this site someone bragged about mary landrieu losing

And how they did not vote for her.

She was a prochoice. Pro lgbt rights, pro civil rights senator from a right wing state.

But none ofthat mattered becausr she voted in ways that benefited industries in her state.

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Response to Wwcd (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 09:45 PM

22. If you want to sit and blame voters, then feel free

 

Just know that it achieves absolutely nothing other than to make you feel better. Politics is sales at its heart, and if people arenít buying our product then itís on us to improve our marketing.

The stakes are too high now, we simply canít afford to just sit around whining about how crappy the people are who didnít vote for us. It doesnít achieve anything.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #22)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:04 PM

28. Who casts the votes kentonio?

 

Who but the voters are responsible for their vote & making sure the vote they cast is in their favor or to their detriment.

It is up to the voter & it is their right & priviledge to know who & what they are castting their vote for.
They can take the word of someone else, or they can educate themselves.

Yes. The voter owns the result of the vote they cast.
Or didn't bother to cast one at all.

'Its not my fault
', is a child's excuse.

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Response to Wwcd (Reply #28)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:34 PM

43. If it's a child's excuse then we shouldn't use it ourselves

 

Or have you completely bought into this self-delusional myth that we did nothing wrong in 16, that it was a perfect campaign, with a perfect down ticket strategy?

We canít change voters. We canít change what dirty tricks repukes pull. We canít stop Putin interfering. All we can do is look for ways to improve our own house and make sure that next time we appeal to so many voters that we win regardless of what anyone else does.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #43)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:14 AM

97. I think it is childish and foolish to message vote with so much at stake. (not talking about you).

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Response to Wwcd (Reply #28)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:20 AM

85. In my family, the vote isn't a privilege, it's a duty.

Enfranchisement isn't just an inherent right, it is your duty as a citizen and a duty to your community to vote. Not voting when you are able to is not only a craven act of lazy self-absorbedness, but also an affront to all those who are disenfranchised, either outright by having the right to vote taken from them, or by the government making voting so difficult it is nearly impossible for certain groups of voters.

That is what I was taught by my family before I voted the first time, and so I have voted in every election since I turned 18 - because as a middle-class, university-educated white cis woman, I've never had problems getting to cast my vote. Doesn't matter whether I loved the candidates I voted for, because even if you don't have anyone you want to vote for, there's always someone to vote against. And in the American electoral system, that means voting Dem either because you love the Dem candidate, or because you hate the GOP. No other alternatives are viable.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #85)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:55 AM

87. And if everyone thought that was, the country would be a much better place

 

But sadly they donít, and holding them to that standard isnít likely to win them over. We need to give them hope and encouragement, not censure. It doesnít matter if people think they deserve it or not, itís literally the only way to make sure we win.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #87)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:55 AM

126. How about not simply caving in to that?

And urging people to do their civic duty and to be serious about it?

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Response to treestar (Reply #126)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 11:59 AM

143. It doesn't work.

 

If people donít trust politics and politicians, then why would they listen?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #143)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:12 PM

151. Ive seen it work on many people, and more since Trump came in. They're not likely to talk about

 

Their apathetic past, but theyíre trying to make up for it. And they were incorrigible about it for years. Go figure.
People do have a breaking point.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #85)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:17 AM

98. That is what I told my kids. My son was a Sanders supporter and reluctant to vote for Hillary,

I told him...any vote for a third party candidate or if you don't vote...it all amounts to a vote for Trump. So do as you please, but don't kid yourself, you would be supporting and voting for Trump really. He voted for Hillary, he said he heard my shrill (I am not shrill but doesn't the kid have a great vocabulary?) voice in his head, and he convinced others to vote the same. Proud of that boy.

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Response to Wwcd (Reply #28)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 11:31 AM

138. So how does this get fixed?

Because the people you are blaming are not going to do it.

You are absolutely correct in what you are saying. Anyone who had to opportunity to vote for a different outcome and chose not do so is responsible for the current result.

But the problem is that they don't care. They didn't care back then, and I doubt very many of them care now. And if they don't care in the next election, the outcome is going to be very similar.

I'm not trying to say that this is the fault of the party leadership, or the fault of anyone who is passionate and cares about this. But I am saying that those are the only people who can do something to change this for the next election.

Maybe some can be won over by forcing them to face the fact that they bear the responsibility for this. But I doubt that is very many of them. In order for that strategy to work, they would have to care.

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Response to Wwcd (Reply #28)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 03:12 AM

184. +10,000, Wwcd. Voting and voting well is a citizen's duty.

The power of the people is a real thing that many covet control over. We have an absolute responsibility to put it into the right hands. And then to monitor.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #22)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:37 AM

83. Speaking of advertising, Americans have been receiving the message for decades that

their vote doesn't count; government is the problem, not the solution; all politicians are crooks & liars. Add to that the Republican propaganda against Democrats, of course many people don't vote.

Same as the decades of advertising processed food. We're told that of course we're too busy to cook, cooking is too hard, too much trouble. I think the scam started with cake mixes. Really, it's too hard to measure your own flour, sugar, baking powder and salt? And now people buy overpriced salad in a bag because they can't take a minute to tear up a head of lettuce.

Trump's messaging was often three words: Lock her up, Build that wall, Drain the swamp -- amazing that Make America Great Again made the cut. Four words, imagine. I don't think it's going to matter what the Democratic party's messaging is.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #22)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:53 AM

123. It is not sales

Anyone who looks at it that way is spiting themselves.

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Response to treestar (Reply #123)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:55 AM

125. It is absolutely sales

 

Itís selling a vision of the future.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #125)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 09:06 AM

130. How is not voting going to affect the future?

Who is it that can't see that? It also separates people into classes - apparently, those who can't tell when they have self-government they should exercise it or they will get what others chose for them, and those that are responsible for making these people get it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #130)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 11:58 AM

142. A genuinely scary number of people just don't think politics effects them

 

Put it down to a lack of education, or a lack of understanding or whatever, but itís absolutely true. Convincing them otherwise is a mammoth task.

Then thereís the people who are just completely disillusioned. If they voted repeatedly for someone they believed in, on promises of a better future, and then their lives havenít improved for decades, why would they believe us when we say weíre going to make things better?

I think all we can do is try and put out the clearest strongest messaging we can, be as inclusive as we can (while holding true to our principles), and then try and make damn sure that next time we hold power we do everything we can to come through for all the people who feel left behind and disillusioned. And that doesnít have to be at the expense of racial justice or any of the other things we so desperately need to improve.

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Response to treestar (Reply #123)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 11:43 AM

139. For a great many people it is

For you it is not. For me it is not. I would venture to say for the vast majority (like 99%+) of the people on this board, it is not.

But there are people who vote based on which candidate was best sold to them. Those people are idiots who will spite themselves, and who will allow themselves to be led around. But that doesn't mean that they don't exist, or that their votes can't sway an election.

Years ago there was a local city council election where I live and there were 4 people running for mayor. After the election there was an article in the newspaper where it showed how much each candidate spent on their election. Out of curiosity I took how much each candidate spent and divided by the number of votes they got. It was shocking how close the $/vote number came to for each candidate. That, to me, confirms that for a lot of people, politics is sales.

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Response to Wwcd (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:28 PM

62. Damn Straight it's on the lazy ass person who can't

be bothered to help save their country and their planet.


Sick of anyone trying to protect their ignorance.

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Response to Cha (Reply #62)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:37 PM

65. I'm fed up with that silly game too, Cha 🍃⚘

 



Haaha..I AM that cat!!

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Response to Wwcd (Reply #65)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:43 PM

67. The only way to reverse the insidious fascism that's happening bit by bit is by VOTING this November

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Response to Cha (Reply #67)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:46 PM

71. This should be a great big massive Campaign Ad

 

Saving to my files..thanks Cha

Good night to you my friend

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Response to Wwcd (Reply #71)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:55 PM

72. And, this..



G'night, buddy!

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Response to Wwcd (Reply #12)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:52 AM

121. Exactly.

They don't participate, then they get the results that voters gave them. It is only themselves they are hurting.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 09:18 PM

19. If those voters are so stupid and misinformed it is on them.

When voters donít turn out, that is absolutely a failure of leadership and weakness on our part. We HAVE to stop acting as if weíre owed votes. Either we convince the country they should go to the polls for us, or else we will lose over and over again.


Nope. It is apathetic ill informed people that are to dayum lazy to get off their collective asses and educate themselves.

We HAVE to stop acting as if weíre owed votes.


No. They have to stand up and put their big boy/girl britches on and take a little responsibility for their own lives. They are no longer being suckled at mommies breast any more and no longer need their nappies changed and spoon fed their Cheerios with a pretend spoon as a plane and asking them to open the hanger.

FFS! Supposedly these are grown adults, they need to start acting like one.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #19)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:33 PM

64. There's always someone trying to protect lazy ass

people who can't be bothered to realize how important it is to save our Country and our Planet from the fucking REAL Oligarchs trying to take over the world.


Every damn election.

she

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 09:58 PM

27. I'm sorry

but if someone needs to be convinced to come out and vote against Trump?

come on.

And yes I will blame our voters because THEIR voters will turn out to vote for a monster if it means control and power, while our voters will only turn out when they love a candidate.

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:34 PM

44. Blame them all you like, but it doesn't achieve anything.

 

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #44)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:19 AM

99. What can we achieve with voters who still threaten not to vote? We used to ask what is the matter

Kansas, but now we have self identified progressives voting against their self interest. Tell them the truth. They are enabling monsters who will destroy this country and kill people. as the old verse says, 'the truth shall set you free.'

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #44)

Sun Jul 8, 2018, 01:35 PM

206. nope it doesn't

but the only thing that will get those voters out is THEM deciding to come out. Not finding some mythical message or candidate that will "inspire" them.

Voters are responsible for the government, not the parties.

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #206)

Sun Jul 8, 2018, 05:15 PM

207. It's exactly an inspiring candidate and message that will get them out

 

Thatís literally exactly what happened with President Obama.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #207)

Sun Jul 8, 2018, 08:30 PM

208. and it's literally why we lost nearly every election

that didn't involve literally voting for him.

Meanwhile, despite having a string of deeply uninspiring candidates, the republicans have racked up a ton of victories.

Now, you tell me which model has a better chance for success...finding another Obama, or getting our side to start approaching voting like the other side does?

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #208)

Mon Jul 9, 2018, 12:18 PM

209. Us losing those elections wasn't because we had an inspirational and charismatic leader

 

It was because President Obama and the DNC let his campaigns grassroots organization dissolve instead of turning it into a strong ongoing movement. It was an awful decision and one that cost us a vast number of seats over those 8 years.

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #208)

Mon Jul 9, 2018, 04:42 PM

212. Guest on Meet the Press yesterday (didn't get his name) was asked where the Dems went wrong

 

when they didn't get Garland confirmed in 2016. His answer (paraphrasing): "Where the Democrats went wrong was in losing the Senate in 2014."

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Response to qazplm135 (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:26 PM

60. Exactly, qazplm.. it Means they don't

give a shite about the environment or SCOTUS, or having our country thrown to Russian wolves.

I'm tired of anyone sticking up for these lazy ass people who can't be bothered to help their country.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:24 PM

58. NO, you're Wrong..

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:28 PM

61. Not enough people chose Clinton over Trump.

If Trump winning over Clinton wasnt enough of a reason for voters to turn out, sheesh, what da fuk do you need? Clinton vs a Hitler-Pol pot mixed clone that murders people in debates? Wow. Nice argument.

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Response to Eko (Reply #61)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:30 PM

63. Cool. Throw your hands up in the airs and call them all fucking losers.

 

Great, feel better now? Now tell me how many votes you just earned us for November?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #63)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:38 PM

66. when someone makes a mistake,

to call them out on it is a teachable moment. It helps people grow. Would you let people escape the responsibility their vote or non-vote entails? Or would you just ignore it and move on hoping that they actually got your back?

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Response to Eko (Reply #66)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:00 AM

74. The last thing the electorate will accept is being lectured by a political party

 

Convince them why they should vote for us next time, or weíll lose again. Thatís the simple truth of it.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #74)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:27 AM

81. I didnt know I was a political party!

Thanks!!!Lol. When you say convince and lecture I dont see a whole lot of sunshine between the two. Lecture: "hey, you lost your health insurance because of the republicans and you voting for them, vote demo and we will work to reinstating them". Convince: "Hey, we will reinstate your health insurance. vote for us". People should be responsible for their actions, not sure why you have such a problem with this. Some might think that responding to why we are where we is more important than winning one election, because if its a systemic problem then we are only pushing off the actual problem regardless if we win the next one.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #74)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:51 AM

84. Kids are being torn away from parents and hidden . Voters SHOULD be blamed if they don't think

that is worth voting over .

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #74)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 10:21 PM

173. So, since you are the arbiter of what we can say to voters,

exactly what are we allowed to say to them?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #63)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:44 PM

69. I manage a large store.

The 2 things a bad manager does is excuse bad behavior and not have accountability for everyone. It seems an awful lot like that is what you are advocating. Not good.

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Response to Eko (Reply #69)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:59 PM

73. Voters are not your employees

 

Voters are your customers. Now does it seem like a good business plan to insult your customers if they donít buy your products? Will that make them buy next time?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #73)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:42 AM

109. Wow. Can't believe that needed to be said. But there it is.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #73)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:00 AM

113. Trump voters love to be insulted, yes they will buy next time.

Told they're so stupid "I could shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose my voters,' "How stupid are the people in Iowa?" etc.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #73)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 06:30 PM

167. Dont see where I said we should insult them at all.

I also didn't call them fucking losers, I let the first straw man go by but Im not going to let a second one.
If the voters are my customers, when they come in and say "hey I want Trump" Ill say, "You should get something good, not something that will break on you in a short while or that you wont like". When they come back to order something to replace it because it broke or they dont like it Ill tell them they should have listened to me the first time and got the Clinton, they would be happy with that because of this and that,,,,,, if you just say, cool, lets get you something else, you are a clerk. You are not reinforcing your original pitch and they are not going to trust you from then on. If you want to be a clerk of life, go ahead, I wont.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #73)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:56 PM

168. Voters aren't "customers."

 

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #63)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:22 AM

101. If they don't vote in the midterm with baby jails and all the other shit

Trump has foisted on us ...then they never would have anyway.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:04 AM

76. dems can't sell shit if they keep ignoring 1500 radio stations - that can now be negated

at $1000/hr x 15 hrs/day = 18MIL/day or $5 BIL/yr

how the fuck dems even think they can message anything while ignoring that is weird.

high paid pr sit in the think tanks and cherry pick and send out daily talking points to 300 ignorant lying racist assholes on 1500 radio radio stations and the left calls that free speech and ignores it and blames fox

that is really fucking stupid

but artificial intelligence just made it cheaper easier and faster by an order of magnitude to transcribe talk radio

sonix.ai does it for $5/hr and is fast and accurate
limbaugh and sons can be recorded with quicktime/mac for instance, transcribed, and advertisers listed easily and quickly by website and without listening.

advertisers and ad agencies will flee when they find out the left is doing that - that can happen quickly

and if any of these 88 universities were pushed to start looking for alts for broadcasting sports many others would follow and advertisers would also

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Response to certainot (Reply #76)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:22 AM

80. Completely agree

 

It feels like weíve basically just conceded the PR ground war to the pukes for a very long time, and we desperately need to start fighting back on a comparable level.

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Response to certainot (Reply #76)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:23 AM

102. I agree with you, but the big money who used to donate have been chased out by the pure people...who

is going to fund it? Talk radio doesn't make money, it is subsidized. And we could use a TV channel too...but who on our side would do it.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #102)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:14 AM

116. 30 yrs ago RW put racist assholes on every corner and stump in the country yelling

youir sister's a whore, your brother's a thief, and your ideas are treasonous, and liberals just walk by, waiting for rich liberals to bail them out?

the only reason we're in this mess is the left has been ignoring talk radio instead of protesting and boycotting the hell out of it, monitoring it with cheap accurate transcription, complaining to the universities it depends on, etc.....

- that would be the most effective activism the left could do, compared with letting 300 think tank coordinated blowhards yell over them and kick our ass every year.

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Response to certainot (Reply #116)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 10:10 AM

137. The wealthy conservatives did this...and it takes money...what is your suggestion?

When something is subsidized...a boycott is not going to be effective.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #137)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:22 PM

145. those stations need money from advertisers, and support from uni and pro sports

transcription of a limbaugh show will provide the web sites of maybe 50 national and local advertisers - when advertisers and ad agencies realize how easy it is now to associate them with the crap coming out of those stations the only adverttisers will be trump supporters and subsidizers and the rw monopoly will fall apart.

the left can do that before november

and there are over also 88 major universities

that need to be pushed to quit broadcasting sports on 260 limbaugh stations (republiconradio.org)

when the left stops ignoring rw radio the right will have nothing.

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Response to certainot (Reply #145)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:28 PM

146. Advertisers have not been paying for Limbaugh for years now.

If you listen to the shows (gag), you will see most are right wing...and won't be swayed but there are few ads these days ...supported by RW money people.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 05:42 AM

89. Then why does it make sense to blame Dems in the face of simple math?

Don't blame the voters, but blame the Dems they didn't vote in. Then don't blame the voters again! Rinse, repeat. That's a great strategy, Kentonio.

The point you're failing to get is having a solid reliable voting base is key. Republicans get it. But you can die on your hill of We're Not Owed Votes! And we can all die under Republican Rule.

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Response to kcr (Reply #89)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:10 AM

94. You are making absolutely no sense

 

We lost the house and the senate and the White House. Sure there are other factors in play, but if we want to win those back we need more voters, a LOT more voters than we got last time.

How do we get them? By calling them stupid assholes because they didnít vote Dem last time? No, we actually sell our message better and make them understand why we offer something so much better than the filth on the other side.

I donít understand why this is even controversial for goodness sake, itís politics 101.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #94)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:21 AM

100. I'm making no sense?

You acknowledge we need more votes. Yet you are the one going around flinging spittle about the right to stay home because votes must be earned. Okay then.

I guess you think everyone operates under the delusion that there are laws compelling people to vote, and that politicians regularly slam people for not voting. That's unfortunate. But the rest of us don't. We're simply saying that more votes are needed and we're frustrated that we don't have the voting base the Rs do. There are many reasons for that, and one of them is the anti- Hold Your Nose! crowd. I'm not a politician, so I get to show my disdain for them. Sorry if you don't like it. Oh, yes I blame them because if they got off their asses and voted too, we wouldn't be in this mess. Math!

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Response to kcr (Reply #100)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:50 AM

119. What are you even talking about?!

 

Iím not defending people staying home, Iím saying the way to stop them doing it next time is to engage with them and offer them something they can believe it. Not sitting calling them assholes because they didnít come out last time. That achieves NOTHING.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #94)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:29 AM

105. They should be called out because saying oh...it is not your fault can only reinforce what they did

The voters blew it and we will face terrible consequences because of it...if they don't feel bad than I question whether they were ever progressive. We are now looking at the possibility that Lawrence VS Texas may be overturned. My hubs is first generation Irish...his parents came over in the 50's he is the baby in a large Irish family. My youngest daughter is Gay. My kids have the right of return...and it may come to that. We will send her to Ireland to keep her safe from Trump's brown shirts. We are going to lose Roe as well...those fucking voters should feel bad and vow to never to do anything like that again...but I still see veiled threats here. If Dems, don't do xyz then no support.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #94)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 02:34 AM

181. You are spot on. Don't doubt it.

Strengthening the quality and effectiveness of the national Democratic message will win more votes. I actually think that the DNC is pushing some innovations this cycle as far as voter contact by social media and sharing information with active Democratic voters about their strategies. Still, though, the national message is muddled and not sufficiently ambitious in my opinion. I think we need to work a lot harder to determine the primary issues of immediate concern. It worked for the Republicans with "Contract for America" in 1994 and for Democrats in 2008 with "Hope and Change."

I have never understood why the national party doesn't just hire a cadre of young communication/marketing graduates just out of a quality university program and have them work on new advertising strategies. "A Better Deal"?!? Can we get any more one-dimensional and stale? At least that slogan went away.

Many on DU refuse to acknowledge any Democratic accountability for the cataclysmic election losses in 2016. Instead, they indulge fully in scapegoating: Jill Stein, Bernie Sanders, the Russians, James Comey, white racists, clueless voters who stayed home - did I miss anyone? Fortunately, I think there's more purposeful and reflective thinking and innovative strategy happening elsewhere among candidates, state parties, and even the DNC.

In my county in Wisconsin, we just had some big progressive wins locally in April, and we're pumped for a good run against Scott Walker and the Republican majority in the Wisconsin statehouse. Wish us luck!!

Cheers and all the best as November 2018 approaches!!

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Response to kcr (Reply #89)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:24 AM

103. +1000 It makes perfect sense.

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Response to kcr (Reply #89)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:27 AM

104. +1

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:13 AM

95. Facts are facts...the voters are to blame. Some used their

vote for some sort of message. I also hear the same sort of threats today on various threads...if the Democrats don't do xyz, why then they won't have support. Democrats must do blah blah or else. You would have though most would have learned from 16...we are losing the courts for a generation and it didn't have to happen. Bad enough to lose but to see that your own side voted for Stein with enough numbers to have given Hillary the win, is heartbreaking.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:51 AM

120. Voters who don't vote

Or citizens who don't vote - have no say. That's stupid on their part. Why wait around for "leadership?" We have self-government, created by the Founders. Participate or don't, but if you don't, it is only yourself you are harming. They are responsible to themselves for not participating.

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Response to treestar (Reply #120)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:52 AM

122. This is true

 

But our job is to try and persuade them to come out next time. Itís in our own interests, as well as theirs.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 09:04 AM

129. It's amazing we're still having these discussions.

Do we still think people are generally reasonable? That they make sensible, objective, informed decisions? Fucking Budweiser doesn't trust people to make reasoned decisions regarding the buying of beer. Why in the hell would we expect better with politics?

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #129)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 11:50 AM

141. Indeed.

 

And Iíd be willing to bet that not 1 in 50 people who actually did come out and vote for us actually read the party platform. Expecting traditional non-voters to know what weíre about unless we pitch it extremely well is just fantasy-land stuff.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:00 PM

144. Failed use of responsibility deserves blame. Voting is a responsibility. nt

 

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #144)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 05:06 PM

164. To what end?

I mean, apart from making you feel morally and intellectually superior, of course.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:36 PM

154. +1 this is a fundamental fact that is being distorted and ignored by many - n/t

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 05:58 PM

166. yep. It would help if Democrats were willing to lose some big donors to serve their actual voters

but that would cost not just donations but jobs as lobbyist and the like when they leave office. Why would they voluntarily give that up?

So essentially, any politician who blames voters needs to be primaried and replaced.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 10:20 PM

172. It is every citizen's responsibility to vote

 

And not sit home like a spoiled teenager who didnít get wooed sufficiently to go to the prom.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 08:36 PM

201. I applaud your efforts

There's a lot of chastising, and completely unaware comments in just your subthread. Votes aren't owed, they are earned, and people didn't think that the Dems have earned them. It's not just 2016 either, we've lost so many seats across the board, and no one wants to even think that maybe the party has done something wrong, let alone talk about ways to do better.

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Response to Lordquinton (Reply #201)

Mon Jul 9, 2018, 04:37 PM

211. You sound like you think that voting is doing a favor for the candidates are

 

And if they don't "earn" it, we're not going to bestow our "gift" on them, as if we have nothing to gain or lose

Voting isn't a gift or a favor. It produces outcomes that can benefit or damage us, regardless whether we think a particular candidate has proven themselves worthy of our largesse.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:19 PM

2. We could stop 10 judges

And someone will still complain while praising someone whoís accomplishes nothing over a 20+ year career.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:27 PM

10. Oh give it a fucking rest

 

Do we really not have enough Republicans to attack right now, without having to carry on this endless goddamn circular firing squad?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:30 PM

11. The ones attacking Democrats usually want republicans to win

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Response to JI7 (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 09:51 PM

25. Bernie supporters ARE democrats

 

Attacking him is just attacking them by proxy. We got our asses kicked in 16 in case you missed it, and Iíd really like to avoid a repeat of that in November. This Ďbut Bernie is so mean!í bullshit is not helping anyone but the GOP.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:18 PM

35. Who brought bernie's name into this? We're discussing VOTERS.

 

Voters, & their responsibility to find out & know what they're voting for rather than relying on someone, friend or stranger, to tell them what to do with their vote & when to do it.


Not everything is about bernie.
You brought his name into this conversation in a defensive & divisive way.
We're talking about the responsibility of each voter.
Stop it.

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Response to Wwcd (Reply #35)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:36 PM

45. Did you actually bother reading the posts you replied to?

 

The first post was exactly an attack on Bernie which is why I asked him to fucking stop it.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #45)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:44 PM

47. Your response is confirmation that attacks are damaging,

so why should attacks on Democrats he tolerated....? The Mueller indictments show who was helped by the Russians because the attacks on Democrats helped the GOP.

If youíre going to talk about the Ď16 GE, no revisionist history, please.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #45)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:11 AM

78. Not that much difference between saying someone accomplished nothing

and saying someone's a failure at leadership or weak.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #25)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:36 AM

106. I don't get that...unless you live in Vermont...why are there still Bernie supporters...I tell you,

I don't think he will run in 20, but if I am wrong...he won't win a Democratic primary and will be out quickly. I am beginning to have hope that his running won't re-elect Trump as well...I just do't think the support for Sen. Sanders is there now for a presidential run. And it is not because I dislike Sen. Sanders that I say this. Anyone associated with the 16 loss is tainted with the worst, most bitter defeat in my lifetime. Trump is a monster. Personally, I want all new candidates...not even O'malley...and a fresh start.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #11)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:21 PM

152. Democrats need to know where they stand, if they stand firm as Democrats, then...

 

they should have enough firmness to face the truth!!! and Remain Standing as DEMOCRATS... Calling them out and telling the truth, should not make any committed Democrat change anything about their stand and position or their vote.
No one needs to be appeasing by lying to Democrats, its time Democrats face the fact, we don't have a dominant public message, we don't control any public narrative... all we have is "I hate Trump and Trumps Administration". We better WAKE UP and tell the people what we want, how we expect to get it, and what we expect to do with it when we get it, and how it can help and benefit the people. ANYONE who does not understand those simple fact... may turn out to be a repeat problem of 2016.

Remember, MLK said:
In ďLetter From a Birmingham Jail,Ē King offered a scathing critique of ďwhite moderatesĒ unwilling to do the right thing that still resonates today:

He wrote:

"First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negroís great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizenís Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ďorderĒ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ďI agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct actionĒ; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another manís freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ďmore convenient season.Ē Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

To read the whole letter, which is archived at Stanford Universityís Martin Luther King Jr. Research and Education Institute, go here. Or you can listen to a recording of King reading the letter [link:http://|here].


Now, its not just about the black person, its about poor whites too !!! Republican see One Group they stand against, which is THE POOR... and within that group, the right wing white people care most about preserving white privilege, and trying to promote white dominance, therefore... among the Poor, they have even less concern and regard for black people and any other non white people.

Our question is... and should be... "what is the mindset of the White Moderates? are they more concerned about preserving "white privilege" or promoting the Democratic Policy of 'EQUALITY" ? and we better find that out before November.

We've already lost the Supreme Court and many Federal Courts and many Appeal Courts, and considering Republicans Control the Congress, the Presidency and the Courts.....

we don't have time for Democrats to be waffling nor for any trying to act confused, so they can stand on the fence, with a leaning toward trying to protect "white privilege" and running to the side of independent and libertarians.... We need "Solid Democrats" who stand FIRM FOR EQUALITY....

The woman that won in New York, won because she 'actually went out and talked to people and she had a message, and made that message the public narrative in the district she won. It did not take her to have $$Millions of dollars, it took her "having a message and spreading the message, to tell people what she propose, what she stands for and how she plan to govern with policy decisions.
The people "heard her"... and they voted for her.... 'THAT'S HOW CAMPAIGNING IS WON"

We should know that in how Obama won, when the Republican Spent over a $BILLION , but Obama along with spending money, 'stayed on message" and "delivered his message" he canvased the country delivering his message.

Trump won, by 'delivering his message"... and if we don't wake up and "deliver our message" then we are our own fault makers.

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:44 PM

68. "Oh give it a fucking rest"

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #10)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:57 AM

127. You start it by saying our leaders are not good enough

to attract people who don't vote.

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Response to treestar (Reply #127)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 11:44 AM

140. Our leaders are not delicate little flowers

 

If theyíre not bringing in enough votes, then yes they need to be encouraged to work harder or change strategy if necessary. A lot more people like Democratic policies than like Repuke policies, so why are we losing elections?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #140)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:27 PM

153. They need to be supported

so others will see they are stronger. We need to support them, not "encourage them to work harder." Why are these "sell-Me" apathetic people going to go and vote because of how hard they work? They may even be turned off by the constant criticism they get. See as with Hillary, it sticks even if it is a lie. The circular firing squad has that effect. They see how even Democrats don't support them, so why should they get out and vote for them?

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Response to Kentonio (Reply #140)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 10:23 PM

174. So, is Bernie a "delicate little flower"?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #174)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 10:33 PM

176. Ya beat me to it.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:22 PM

5. Some just beat that 'Dems are week! Dems in Dissaray!' old drum to anything they can find to

 

Last edited Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:24 PM - Edit history (1)

attach it to.

Its by design.
They aren't Dems who say this, they've never been Dems & don't intent to ever be.

The intent behind the meme is to discredit until someone believes it.

Its intent is to weaken the Dem voting block & thats it.

It comes in the form of a broadbrushed statement, a headline, for impact with scant to none, proof behind the accusatiin.
They don't care about an honest reason.

Easy to spot them. And to ignore them.
We Democrats know our worth to society.

💕🍃 Effie , we'll be just fine. We are strong & sure of who we advocate & do battle for.
Human Rights is the basic tenet of our Democratic Party.
We know our cause in life.
They do not.



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Response to Wwcd (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:13 PM

33. +1

The #1 goal of Republicans is to reduce Dem turnout and they will throw as much $hit out there as possible to confuse and depress turnout.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:24 PM

6. I find the ones whose conscience troubles them to vote for democrats

Are the same ones who spend their time attacking the party for not doing enough.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:51 PM

16. And then whine like babies about "divisiveness" whenever they're called on it.

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:25 PM

7. I don't think anyone was trying to 'teach Obama a lesson'

in 2010 and 2014

Obama's tenure as POTUS seemed to be that of a statesman...not a politician, campaigner or party 'leader' in the sense of getting out votes

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:56 PM

17. Then you weren't paying attention

 

That was exactly the terminology frequently used here and elsewhere. I remember it well.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 09:00 PM

18. I do.

He walked knowingly into the worst recession a near depression and fixed it quietly. That took time. We were draining jobs by the hundreds of thousands and he fixed that as voters screamed what about me!!! He never did it fast enough for some. He gave us a life saving healthcare and survived a threat by the GOP to make that uppity black man a one term President.

The voters hated him for not fixing "the what about memes" fast enough.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #18)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:32 PM

42. Remember the "he should have held out for universal Healthcare" complaints

 

Totally ignoring the fact that he and Pelosi just barely got ACA over the finish line by the skin of its teeth as it was.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #7)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:39 AM

107. Yes they were...tons of post whining about the failure to get single payer....they taught him

a lesson alright and we lost any chance of advancing progressive policy ...did the same thing in 14 and we lost a Scotus pick. It all boils done to the voters...you saw the same thing in the 70's where we also mostly lost.

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #7)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:58 AM

128. Yes they were - the ACA was not good enough

Obama had some preacher pray at his inauguration - it started right away.

"Obama's lost my vote if he escalates in Afghanistan" - I well remember that one. Which he had said he was going to do in the campaign.

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Response to treestar (Reply #128)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 07:43 AM

189. Hold up. I was angry about the homophobic preacher at the inauguration, but I never stopped voting D

Gay people spoke out loudly - as did many straight allies - and Obama "evolved" on equal rights. That's how rights are won. And the night Obergefell was decided by the Supreme Court, President Obama had the White House lit with the rainbow flag. Brought me to tears. I'll never forget it.

And I never, ever stopped voting for every Democrat in every election. I never miss one.

Don't blame gay voters. We're one of the most reliable Democratic voting blocs.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #189)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 12:17 PM

197. I don't blame them but the purists

who would not even give Obama any credit whatsoever due to that error of "inclusion" on Obama's part. When he undid DADT there were a couple of posters who refused to believe it and even alleged there was some sort of fail-safe in the order that it didn't really end.

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Response to treestar (Reply #197)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 04:13 PM

198. Those posters had agendas other than achieving equal rights, IMO.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:26 PM

9. I remember there was someone that bragged about not voting for mary landrieu

And were celebrating her losing and a bunch of others joined in. Same ones who said obama was a piece of shit.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #9)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:40 AM

108. I was a lurker than...and saw the same thing...and we have never had a working majority since those

losses.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:32 PM

13. Just yesterday i said voting is the most important thing

But some want to be entertained.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 08:42 PM

15. Please stop calling Dems "weak" !

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 09:40 PM

20. That's not why they're weak.

Theyíre weak because they donít want it as badly. Theyíre weak because they wonít play the game to win like the GOP does. Those bastards will step over their motherís corpse to get another tax cut, another regulation gone, another discriminatory bill passed. Democrats wonít do that, they wonít rig elections, they wonít scheme to suppress Republican voters, they wonít shiv a blue haired old racist lady to get Medicare for all or card check. They do not pull out all the stops, publicly shame each other for not walking in lockstep or bend the rules past the breaking point to get what they claim to want. Because I just donít believe they really want those things. I think many of them are perfectly happy to put up a show fight and let the GOP have their way. Itís hard not to think that way after seeing things unfold over the past thirty years.

Remember during the W years when theyíd put Democrats in the basement to hold meetings and then cut the mics and shut off the lights and walk away? Then when Dems ďwonĒ in 2006 the right begged Democrats not to treat them like that and they didnít. They let Republicans walk all over them, punk them and bully them whether theyíre in power or not. Remember John Boehner standing up in the House and screaming ďHell No You Canít!!Ē at Legitimate President Obama over his agenda after they just got crushed in the 2008 elections? They didnít give an inch. They fight like cornered rats. They rule the media cycles with outrageous claims and flat out lies and our guys bumble and mumble and wonít even call a liar a liar, a fraud a fraud and a criminal a criminal. Why do they get to defame and character assassinate people at will and our guys will not? The powder is always dry. Thatís weak.

And then if one of our guys does bring a gun to a gun fight they donít back them. They call them uncivil and un-American. Republicans make openly racist statements and their teammates wonít even comment on it, let alone condemn it. They have a focus, a goal, and they all go in on it eventually. Look at the people theyíve confirmed for cabinet positions, look at the judges. Some of them are just far right bloggers. They donít care, they push their agenda. If thereís ever a problem with them itís because the bills arenít far right enough.

Elected Democrats show their bellies in submission far too often. Sure, the supreme court justice is an unwinnable fight but they should fight tooth and nail anyway. Call it what it is, a setup orchestrated by Тяцмр to assure heís never made to face the crimes heís going to be charged with. Make that foregone conclusion. Pull out every arcane rule in the book to delay it as long as possible, make a stink, cause a scene, appeal to anger and outrage, act like you give a damn.

Thereís a time to fight with honor and thereís a time to kick your opponent in the balls when the judges arenít looking. Weíre long past that time.

Iím a pro-labor, blue collar construction worker, full on liberal Democrat. Iíll always be that. Iíll never vote third party or Republican and Iím livid at what is taking place under this asshole squatting in the White House. I was at OWS, I go to the rallies and marches, I punch Nazis when they show up. I just want to see that same fight in the party. The very soul of the nation is on the line here. I want more from our leaders. Iím tired of mealy mouthed, timid bullshit.

Iím just extra angry today. I feel like the torture never stops. Iím mad at a hundred things. Democratic weakness, foot shooting and mixed messaging is one of them.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 09:44 PM

21. You want to rig elections and shiv old ladies?

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Response to Orangepeel (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 09:48 PM

23. Want to? No. But if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.

The Republicans have no qualms about doing just that to do exactly what theyíre doing right now. Sometimes good people have to do hard things to make life better for everyone.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 09:52 PM

26. That's the excuse Republicans give

 

If we do whatever it takes to win, how do we tell ourselves apart from them?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #26)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:08 PM

32. +100. n/t

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #26)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:28 PM

40. Sometimes, power is the only antidote to power.

When fighting a wildfire, sometimes you have to set a fire of your own. Fighting fire with fire is sometimes the only option.

In response to Nazi atrocities, we burned their country to the ground and killed hundreds of thousands of their civilians. THAT is what it took to defeat Hitler. Only when the bombs finally stopped falling and Hitler was dead did we step in to rebuild.

And similarly immoral choices may be what it takes to defeat the malignant tumor that the Republican party has become.

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Response to ArchTeryx (Reply #40)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:55 PM

51. the Republicans appeal to Bigotry . it's a Bigoted Straight White Xtian Party that hates everyone

else.

you can't equate with the democrats because people vote for democrats for different reasons. and behaving like bigoted republicans will turn off most other democrats.



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Response to ArchTeryx (Reply #40)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:06 PM

55. BlueTsunami2018 and ArchTeryx--THANK YOU!

I will sleep better tonight knowing that some Dems are not afraid to think and act like this. It's OK to hate hate. Fighting dirty doesn't feel natural to many progressives, but a few judiciously applied (figurative) rabbit punches are OK if they are the only way to achieve concrete results against hateful people.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #26)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:04 AM

75. By having better policies.

You donít get to implement those policies if you donít win. They know how to win. We need to win by hook or by crook or we watch everything weíve worked so hard for over the past 75 years gone forever.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 09:50 PM

24. These Members and Senators answer to their constituents

 

If their constituents pushed harder and supported them more strongly, they wouldnít have to worry about toeing the line in order not to piss off people at home.

For example, whenever I criticize a Senator like McGaskill for being to conservative, I get lecture from here to Sunday about how conservative her district is, how she must represent her constituents, she canít get too far out there, ďwould you rather have a Republican?!Ē etc.

If the members arenít pushing hard enough for your taste, you need to jump on their constituents, not them.

Iím tired of Dems trying to have it both ways. We demand our leaders fall on their swords, but we donít support them when they do. We whine about leadership not getting in Republicansí faces, but then call for Nancy Pelosiís ouster because Republicans donít like her. We complain about being in the minority, but then find every excuse in the book not to vote for Democrats when it matters.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:07 PM

31. It's not that they don't want it as badly. It's that they ALSO value the democratic process

and the system of law, and are trying to abide by it.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:17 PM

34. Exactly!

 

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:56 PM

52. Yes! If Dems got anywhere near bending, let alone breaking a law ...

there'd be a full investigation underway in two seconds, top story breaking news.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #31)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:09 AM

77. Well then prepare for right wing, iron fisted rule for the rest of your life.

Because they donít give a fuck about any of that, they just control everything because they win by whatever means are necessary.

It doesnít help to be nice and honorable while the other guy cheats and wins and no one calls them out on it.

This isnít tiddlywinks, this is life and death for everything we hold dear.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #77)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:33 AM

86. I don't want left or right iron-fisted rule for the rest of my life.

I'm going to keep fighting for the democratic system of laws that we've had for more than 200 years.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #86)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 03:19 AM

88. I don't want left wing iron fisted rule either.

But we have to wrest the power back from these fascist sons of bitches to restore that rule of law. Because thatís just about to slip away from us. We must do what we must do. Itís fight or die time and our guys keep thinking the idea of a fair system is going to save us. It isnít.

This piece of shit is going to get away with it all. The Supreme Court is going to rule in his favor regardless of what comes out of the Mueller probe. This isnít like the Nixon days. His cult will not turn on him for conspiring with Russia, theyíre just not going to believe it. And as long as those Republican voters hang with him, so will the GOP elected officials.

The situation is that dire. Unless weíre ready to do what needs to be done, by whatever means are necessary, the American Experiment is over. We will have failed to keep our republic.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #77)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 09:17 AM

132. Excellent Post.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #31)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:13 AM

96. Yes! And THAT'S why they get called weak

along with every other damn thing because the people who do this will find every excuse to do so. Every reason other than the one they're trying to excuse, which is to protect their precious right to withhold their vote because it has to be EARNED, wah!!

Republicans win because their voters vote for them. Republican voters vote. They vote and they vote and they vote. And they vote for the R. And their candidates win. They then have the power to enact their policies that favor their side, while our side whines even more about how weak our side is and stays home and further entrenches the Republicans. Then more whining about how weak Dems are. Then when you point out about how voting would help? Wah, don't tell me what to do! EARN MY VOTE!!! GRWAHHHH!

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:15 PM

57. Welcome to DU

Nicely stated!

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:36 AM

82. I know it's not a popular sentiment here, but...

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:43 AM

110. They are not weak. It is simply math...nothing they do can stop the SCOTUS pick...and it

is pointless to risk losing the midterm over a losing battle. The GOP behavior is unprecedented...I have no doubt when the Dems get the math right...and have a working majority...they will make sure to pay Republicans back. I have been proud of their efforts after Trump (and before) . We have no power...and by definition are weakened. It is not the elected's fault, but the voters who failed to support Democrats.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #110)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:53 AM

124. Really? When did they ever "pay them back"?

Never. It never happens. The Republicans treat the Dems like shit when they have power and when the tables turn itís all nicey nice while the GOP still plays the hardest of ball.

Weíre nearly at the point where it doesnít matter anymore. If Russia helps them steal November, and this administration has done less than nothing to prevent it, itís all over.

The time to step on their necks was 2007- 2011. The Democrats didnít do it. And here we are, with the boot on ours and an adversary without mercy.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #124)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 09:45 AM

135. you are incorrect and this looks like an attempt to discourage Democratic voters.

Thus, I will merely say...enjoy your stay and end this conversation.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #135)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 05:55 PM

165. Typical.

Iím trying to encourage Democrats to fight the same way the other side does and that includes voting like your life depends on it, because it does.
Donít try to pretend Iím doing anything other than that because you donít like the ugly truth. You need to wake up and see what weíre dealing with here.

These people are about to kill us off. We need to be every bit as nasty and underhanded as they are, and then some.

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Response to BlueTsunami2018 (Reply #165)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 10:15 PM

171. I don't get that from your post... and I never pretend...

" It is all nicey nice"... A little trashing of Obama always helps turn out voters for sure (sarcasm)...and then basically calling Democrats wimps..a prove formula no doubt...(sarcasm) Of course it won't matter because the Russian will not doubt steal the election -that is how you think voters can be inspired? I get a why bother meme from your post. Perhaps you meant it differently but that is how it sounds to me.








































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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:05 PM

29. And the meme that Dems are "weak" encourages anti-Trump people not to bother voting at all.

It's defeatist.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #29)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:46 AM

111. Yes it does. I know some who whined about holding their nose and voting for Hillary...and they

are surprised to find I don't admire them in the least...my response is you voted for Hillary but how many decided not to vote for her because of your words? Those who want 'constructive' criticism' ...no such thing my opinion...hurt the party and drive voters away. No one wants to vote for a party where even their own members say it is shit.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:06 PM

30. Thank you.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:18 PM

36. We should look forward and not backward.

There are no finer people than Democrats!! Stand tall and be proud, and fight the good fight!!!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:20 PM

37. Dem leaders just threw Maxine under the bus.

That's the problem with our leadership for a long time, dedicated to civility instead of justice, even in the face of fascism.

We wimp out on everything, from the 2000 election theft, to the Iraq War, to many issues during the Obama era, and the 2016 election theft.

I agree the Obama/Hillary-hating alt-left is much to blame for our institutional weakness, but it's also about Dem leadership.. we need new leaders who are more in-touch with cable news, social media and the base overall.

Sure, Dems don't have the votes to stop Trump's pick ... but once Trump took office Dems should've delcared him illegitimate, i.e. 'We refuse to work with an individual who may've been installed by a foreign power. We await the outcome of Mueller's investigation before considering working with him on anything, much less SCOTUS. We implore all Republicans of good faith to do the same.'

Politics is the art of framing narratives and driving public opinion more than anything else... you create an uproar that lights a fire under the moderate Repubs and conservative Dems, then maybe you stand a chance.

Sitting back and playing nice gets us nothing.

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Response to radius777 (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:25 PM

38. You're expecting Dem leadership to govern like Trump

 

i.e., cater to the most extreme wing of the party and ignore everyone else. Most Democrats didn't and still don't want leadership to govern that way. While your approach may be satisfactory to the further left on our base (I, myself, would love it!), that's not responsive to or reflective of the party as a whole.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #38)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:45 PM

48. Not like Trump - more like Maxine Waters,

Sheila Jackson Lee, Ted Lieu, Eric Swalwell, Adam Schiff... or past fiery leaders like Al Franken, Howard Dean.

Dems who stand up and focus a message, and come to the defense of fellow Dems when they're taking incoming fire.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #38)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:14 PM

56. Maybe you didn't mean it like this, but...

Maxine Waters isn't even close to extreme; she's just courageous.

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Response to pelerin (Reply #56)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:28 AM

117. Hell YES!

I PROUDLY STAND WITH MAXINE!!!

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Response to pelerin (Reply #56)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 01:05 PM

147. I wasn't referring to Maxine.

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #38)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 06:07 AM

90. And that, Effie, is the problem...

...Maxine Waters is NOT the most extreme wing of the Democratic Party, she's just a bit louder and more out-front than most. She tells the truth. I am OVER the "we don't want to be like tRump*" rationalizations and justifications. If you are going to be in a knife right, YOU BRING A BIGGER KNIFE... you leave your civility and manners at the door.

I agree with Maxine: EVERY TIME a tRumplethinskin* goes to a restaurant, they should be harassed. EVERY TIME another bold-faced lie is told or trotted out as truth, it should be heartily and loudly denounced.

As for the Merrick Garland affair... I called my two Senators, I emailed my two Senators (McCain and Flakey). I made a downright nuisance of myself. Don't get me wrong, I love POTUS B.O., but he should have gone to the mattresses fighting for his Supreme Court pick. Comrade McConnell spit in his face and basically called him "boy." He should have kicked the turtle's political ass. A fight on the Hill should have been forced.

You don't get rid of bullies and thugs by politely asking them to leave. You physically throw their asses out.

What we can do:

1. Let Chuck Schummer and Nancy Pelosi and every other Democratic Congressperson know you have Maxine's back, and ask the question, "why the hell aren't they as loud and out front as Maxine"?

2. Find out who represents you in Congress. Get their numbers and USE THEM. USE THEM AGAIN AND AGAIN.

3. Register to vote. If you are already registered, go out of your way to make sure your registration is correct and accurate. Check again. And if you live in one of the fuckwad states that is attempting to hamper or limit voting, CHECK AGAIN AND BE LOUD ABOUT IT.

4. Make it your responsibility to make sure everyone you love and care for is registered to vote.

5. Get on the Net, find an INDIVISIBLE Group, join it. Hook up with other patriots. There is power in numbers.

6. And again, make sure you let the Democratic Leaders know that you EXPECT THEM to be firm and solid, JUST LIKE MAXINE!

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Response to Raster (Reply #90)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 02:49 AM

182. amen!

GREAT reminders about the tactics needed now, with critical midterms around the corner!!

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Response to radius777 (Reply #37)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:49 AM

112. No they didn't. And the Dem leaders are in charge and working to try to win the mid term...they

did what they thought was right...and your second guessing this and complaining about it, only helps the other side.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #112)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 01:07 PM

148. The same people who insist that Pelosi needs to go because she antagonizes Republicans

 

turn around and scream bloody murder when she and other leadership try to play "good guy bad guy" in order not to unnecessarily antagonize Republicans.n

Pick one, people.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #148)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 01:54 PM

149. Yep...I don't think that some understand the reality of politics.

We need to win folks. We have talked math since 16..we have no house, no senate and no presidency...3-0-math trumps talking points every time.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #148)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:03 PM

150. 'the same people who insist that Pelosi needs to go because she antagonizes Republicans'

 

Nobody says that.

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Response to melman (Reply #150)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:48 PM

156. You must not have been paying attention

 

Otherwise, you wouldn't have missed the spate of "Pelosi's a lightning rod" posts that keep popping up around here at opportune times.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:27 PM

39. We didn't do anything to the Republicans for not letting us name a SCJ.

We clutched our pearls and complained on social media. The Republicans, on the other hand, had a fully funded machine pumping propaganda to the masses that there was some rule that no SCJís can not be named in an election year. This was complete poppycock. We just always roll over and seed the fight. It is a morale vampire and those of us who want a fight, but have been disappointed at every turn, donít even try anymore. Fight motherfuckers. Fight.

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Response to amywalk (Reply #39)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:30 PM

41. What did YOU do to fight for Garland in 2016?

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #41)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:38 PM

46. What did our President do?

Or any elected Democrat, for that matter. Forget some anonymous poster on the Internet. Was there ever a fight, or did we just get our asses kicked?

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #46)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:49 PM

157. What did YOU do?

 

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Response to amywalk (Reply #39)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:10 AM

115. What did you want Democratic politicians to do? Tweak Mitch McConnell's nose?

Go on a hunger strike? What?

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Response to Recursion (Reply #115)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:45 AM

118. +1

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Response to Recursion (Reply #115)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 03:02 AM

183. Dispatch every rep to every news outlet.

Convene a party summit to discuss messaging and strategy. Plan your response.

Use the strongest possible language publicly and vociferously to call out the undermining of democracy.

Schedule a presidential address, demand network coverage, and make your best pitch to voters.

Have Chuck Schumer assemble 38 Democratic senators to make a statement (as was done so quickly in the Al Franken railroading).

That would be a start. If you are paid to be a Democratic leader and national patriot, it was time to stand up or get called out.

As time passes, look back at what Republicans did. Find a game plan for next time. Or prepare to get punked again.

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Response to BlueWI (Reply #183)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 10:54 AM

193. Ah, the "strongest possible language"

Yes, yes. That would change Republican behavior.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #193)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 04:21 PM

214. It's part of a suite of actions.

Or maybe you think it's better to sit on your hands and be silent.

What about the whole list of actions that I listed here?

Plus, there are audiences other than Republicans when you speak out. Assuring your own current and potential supporters that you have a spine will help you on election day.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #115)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 03:17 AM

185. And maybe most importantly

stop making excuses.

Be earnest enough to admit that you got punked by a bully who stole your lunch money, threw your books on the floor, shoved you down, and walked away laughing.

What's the best response? High road, low road, better do something, or prepare for a very bad year at school.

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Response to BlueWI (Reply #185)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 10:55 AM

194. Prepare for a very bad year at school. This is what we were warning you about in 2010 and 2014

Because going on TV will not ever make Mitch McConnell change his strategy.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #194)

Thu Jul 12, 2018, 04:24 PM

215. So what's your suggestion?

Capitulate and be silent? The current state of affairs with a court packed with conservatives calls for better strategy. Apparently, you have none, and you prefer to dismiss or ignore suggestions.

So be it.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:48 PM

49. Together, United, We'll Never Be Divided!

We are unified by our desire to fight the greedy sociopaths who comprise the GOP. We have just begun the Summer Of Resistance! CALL! WRITE! TALK! PROTEST! ORGANIZE! Is that so hard? FUCK NO!

RESISTANCE WORKS! We did it with the ACA and we are doing it again...WE ARE THE REAL PATRIOTS! WE THE PEOPLE will win this war. Make no mistake about it...this is a war and we are fighting to save our country and we have just begun to fight the GOP bastards. Go to your local reps offices and homes THIS WEEK while they are on recess. If they don't show, do it without them like they did with Schumer today. Call non stop next week and hold town halls. This whole Summer is The Summer Of Resistance. It is our victory that is in our sites. We are going to save the USA for future generations!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:54 PM

50. Just because word "weak" has some stigma and baggage doesn't mean its wrong.

You used 4 paragraphs to describe what could be described with one word.

Unfortunately, our presence in the Senate, House and Whitehouse isn't strong right now. And we all know what the opposite of strong is.

This isn't about insults, it's about acknowledging the way the world is, instead of how we want it to be....and then proceeding from that place to get it where we want it.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 10:59 PM

53. Amen to that!!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:05 PM

54. What is with the "democrats" and "weak" threads?

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:25 PM

59. I know! Not enough votes means not enough votes.

Politicians aren't activists or entertainers or superheroes. I don't know what people expect them to do.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 2, 2018, 11:45 PM

70. We ARE weak if we give up before anyone's even been nominated. But we're better than that!.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 12:12 AM

79. People need to complain

How else will they find an excuse to sit out the election. Helps the hip, emo image.

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Response to RandySF (Reply #79)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 10:08 AM

136. "Voting is useless! Your vote doesn't matter! It's all rigged!" etc. etc.

Then, these same people whine on Facebook about this countryís leadership. They usually use the logic that, unless our voting system is 100% perfect, our country is a dictatorship and all of our elections are shams.

I think the truth is that theyíre too lazy to vote, and look for excuses to justify their laziness. That, or theyíre so deluded that they truly believe not voting is a legitimate protest.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 06:33 AM

91. It's just another way to smear and attack Democrats and the Democratic party...

This is not a sign of weakness. Itís arithmetic. We just donít have the numbers. And we donít have the White House.
It's just another way to smear and attack Democrats and the Democratic party. Those who smear and attack Democrats know this... they just don't care... they just want to any excuse to denigrate the party.

It was not a failure of leadership or our partyís ďweaknessĒ that put us in this situation.
True! I have my own ideas about the reason we're in this position... only, for obvious reasons, it's best that I not go into details. Besides, my opinions on this matter are already well known.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 06:37 AM

92. Sadly, this is our lesson in why everyone needs to vote.

And sometimes you have to suck it up and vote for a candidate you aren't madly in love with. There will only be one Barack Obama.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 07:06 AM

93. +1000 Effie! This is the same sort of thing that happened in 2000 where we got two wars, two

conservative justices, United and an economic debacle shoved down our throats by Bush...and why because the left left green slimes and the Democrats they convinced didn't vote for the Democratic nominee...this time it was worse...those whining are the same folks I saw whining about emails during the general and how our candidate was a 'war hawk'. We lost six years of possible progressive laws and a justice because of those who sent Obama a 'message' in 10 and 14, and now those same folks call Democrats weak... No you have to vote Democratic always if you want a shot at passing legislation. We have such a pure platform. I like it. Many fought so hard for it...why it was divisive even...but it is also irrelevant because we lost. Winning is not everything, it is the only thing.

We need to take back the House or this country will be unrecognizable when and if Trump leaves office. We can't advance legislation, but we can stop Trump shit. Instead of wasting money on primarying Democrats, let's go all out on retaking the Senate, we can stop judges then. It is the only way to stop Trump's judges and if we make an all out attempt now to block Trump's pick which would include forcing conservadems to vote for this. We will still fail in my opinion. More importantly, we could lose more Senators and not retake the house in 18. You have to think about the midterms.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:03 AM

114. Yep. Blame the weak-ass Republicans...

...for their eagerness to rubber-stamp the Heritage Foundation's picks.

Money is their only strength.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 09:08 AM

131. If the Dems are "weak" it is not having numbers and it is

ultimately on people who did not get out and vote - it is funny to demand a party be strong and then not support it. It is the support that makes it strong. People who "taught" Obama and us a "lesson" are only getting threats of repeal of the ACA, not single payer. So who got "taught?" It should be themselves!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 09:21 AM

133. K&R

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 09:22 AM

134. There is very little can be done

From John Oliver

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 02:43 PM

155. DEM LEADERSHIP (& MSM) ARE to blame for their silence about Greg Palast reports on '16 elections!

There were crickets of silence (and still are) in response to the very cogent reports by Greg Palast about massive voter suppression, especially in GOP-controlled swing states (and there were a LOT of them, including but not limited to WI, MI, and PA) was decisive in shifting the electoral college (and possibly a number of House & Senate seats) to the GOP. These VERY cogent reports, including Palast's warning in RollingStone in August of 16 were ignored by the feckless/obedient Democrats and MSM. Such is how the REAL America functions, especially when the chips are down.

Russia surely spied on and did what they could to sow confusion in the US election, tho the scale and decisiveness of it are orders of magnitude less cogent than Palast's systematically ignored reports. It is also true US has interfered BIGTIME (not just supporting overthrow of a long string of democratically elected leaders) as in the Russian elections of '96. Should every precaution against such interference be mobilized? Yes. Should this be arguably the MOST oxygen-absorbing issue in the mainstream media concerning Trump 2017-18? NO!. And Palast's reportage actually deserves as much attention (not rubberstamping agreement but coverage, debate, investigation, and pursuit by a NONFECKLESS Democratic Party) as RussiaRussiaRussia

Sorry if this is too harsh a criticism of the Democrats for some -- but only this kind of confrontation with truth will get us anywhere -- and since such is all too rare, we are in serious trouble

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Response to cloudythescribbler (Reply #155)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 04:29 PM

162. Are you serious?

I volunteer a great deal of time on voter suppression efforts. For example, I helped to train over 200 poll watchers and I helped organized and run a statewide hotline for voter protection. I was a member of the Obama Voter Protection team and the Clinton Victory Counsel program. The DNC and the Democratic Party were both well aware of GOP voter suppression and fought like crazy to stop it. Several thousand Democratic lawyers across the nation volunteered to fight voter suppression. I nearly went to Wisconsin as part of the Victory Counsel program but I ended staying in Texas to run the statewide hotline. The Victory Counsel program had 100s of lawyers on the ground in each of Florida, Wisconsin, Penn., North Carolina, Michigan and Ohio.

In my county, our poll watchers were at the GOP controlled precincts and stopped the GOP greeters from lying to voters about the Texas voter id law and the new reasonable impediment declaration (RID) system that came out of a lawsuit filed by Chad Dunn (general counsel to the Texas Democratic Party and Congressman Marc Veasey). We had poll watchers in several dozen counties including Bexar stop election officials from using old posters on the Texas voter id law that did not describe the RID process. At one point I was arguing with the Texas secretary of state about armed guards being stationed outside a polling location in San Antonio due to claims of Isis (we got several poll watchers to that site).

While Russia can hack voter registration files, there is no way to hack election machines in most district. These machines are never hooked to the internet and are connected by wire connections to a machine called a judge booth controller that records the votes. The JBC has been be transported to the election office where seals are removed from the JBC and the votes counted. We have watchers observe the certification and testing of each machines each cycle. While some machines may be hackable most are not hackable.

In 2016, we turned Harris county blue and swept most of the races We have a Democratic district attorney in Harris County which has led to bail reform and decriminalization of small amounts of pot. A lady who I trained as a poll watcher in 2012 was elected to be in charge of voter registration. Every cycle we used to have to sue to get sufficient voter registration forms in languages other than English.

I am curious what the heck more do you think could be done. No one in the real world ignored GOP voter suppression and there a ton of good Democratic lawyers do what could be done to protect the vote. There is only so much that can be done under the current laws but I assure you that the DNC, the Clinton campaign and the relevant state and local Democratic Parties did what could be legally done.

No one ignored warnings about voter suppression. What do you think could have been done under the law that was not done?

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #162)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:02 PM

170. Thank you for the well-explained and supported reality check

 

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #170)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 11:42 PM

180. Election law is my hobby and I spend a great deal of time volunteering in this area

Democratic lawyers are fighting GOP voter suppression like crazy. Chad Dunn got mad after the SCOTUS gutted the Voting Rights Act and figured a way to challenge and eventually gut the Texas voter id law. Now anyone can vote using ids such as a bill or bank statement so long as they sign a Reasonable Impediment Declaration.

The GOP will try to suppress the vote and Democratic lawyers will fight these efforts.

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #180)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 07:04 AM

187. I also worked on election protection, so I totally get what you're saying

 

It's easy to assume nothing's being done or that large conspiracies are at work if you don't actually see everything in action.

Several years ago, when I was working election protection for a presidential election, someone called the boiler room in near hysteria to report that they were witnessing in real time, ballots being stolen. She said she had witnessed two people loading boxes of ballots into a car at a polling precinct and drive to a warehouse where the boxes were unloaded and placed into a van. The van pulled off, trailed by two cars. The caller was following the van as they called us.

We tried to explain that this wasn't a "theft" but this was actually the protocol for transferring the ballots to the Board of Elections. The two people loading the ballots were BOE election officials - one Republican, one Democrat - and they drove the ballots to the designated transfer location where they were collected by other BOE employees and then driven to election headquarters to be counted. The people following the van were also election officials (including the two people who had loaded them into the cars) and election protection attorneys. This was all part of maintaining a non-partisan "chain of custody."

But she was having none of it. She was furious and upset and insisted that something needed to be done NOW to stop the "theft" and we could not convince her otherwise. She hung up and I heard later that she called a local radio station and, I have no doubt that her story eventually ended up somewhere on the internet where rumors go to live and grow and morph.

It's frustrating because there are enough things actually going wrong without us manufacturing and getting distracted by conspiracies where they don't exist. But, as you said, our election system generally works pretty well and I fear that this kind of paranoia will result in "fixes" that screw it up beyond repair.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #187)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 09:22 AM

190. Once a cycle, I serve as an election judge

It is good way to see the process in operation. It is a long day but you get to see the process up close. My youngest child has been an election judge for several years now and when I can not be a judge, I sit in on her class on election procedure.

There are a ton of good Democratic lawyers like yourself who are doing everything possible to protect the vote.

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Response to cloudythescribbler (Reply #155)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 10:56 AM

195. What "silence"? They talk about it all the time. Eric Holder formed a damn NGO

to try to actually undo some of it, and is having some success.

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Response to cloudythescribbler (Reply #155)

Thu Jul 5, 2018, 01:41 AM

204. You are wrong and ill-informed -- and Gothmog is right. I remember Dem preparation & efforts.

I'm sorry if you were not paying attention at the time.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 03:03 PM

158. Of course, we shouldn't have to be stopping an SC nominee.

Hindsight is pretty easy, and in hindsight Merrick Garland should have been a recess appointee.

I truly love that Barack Obama was my president. I do. His only flaw was trusting republicans. To the very end, he kept thinking that they would deal fairly if he did, that they would show respect and decency if he trusted them. It is a lesson that he should have learned much sooner. He simply didn't believe the republicans would be so low or evil as to block the nomination for a year - even when he had the evidence from their lying to him repeatedly and when they had blocked the majority of his lower court nominees.

We can debate about how the party can get the vote, but we shouldn't have to debate or question any longer whether republicans will never do the right thing, never deal honestly, never tell the truth.

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #158)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 03:16 PM

160. A recess appointment would have lapsed in January 2017

 

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #158)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 04:31 PM

163. Congress was kept in technical session after Scalia died

The GOP did not let Congress go out of technical session so there was no opportunity for a recess appointment

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #163)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 08:01 PM

169. I forgot about that

 

A recess appointment wasn't even possible.

But even if it were, it would have expired in the next Congress, so what would be the point? Garland wouldn't have been around long enough to participate in any rulings.

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #191)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 11:53 AM

196. This would have made no difference whatsoever.

 

The Court is in session from the first Monday of October through the end of June. They do 't hear cases in May and June. They are out of session from July through October.

If Obama made a recess appointment of Garland in January 2017, as proposed, he would not be able to rule on any case argued before he joined the Court and the cases argued between October and December 2017 when his appointment ended would not be decided until he was off the Court. In those instances, the cases would be decided by the remaining eight justices or, if the case was close or very important, it would be re-argued in front of the full Court with the newly-installed Trump-appointed Justice. And it is highly unlikely that Chief Justice Roberts would schedule any critical cases for argument and decision within a time frame between January and May that would have allowed Garland - or any recess-appointed justice to participate in both the oral arguments and a decision.

And, even in the highly unlikely chance that he did, the case probably would have been put over for a rehearing after a new justice was appointed.

In other words, a recess appointment would have had no impact on anything that matters.

I wonder why it doesn't occur to some people that President Obama isn't stupid and, even if they think he wasn't smart or savvy enough to figure things out for himself, it doesn't occur to them that he was surrounded by really smart people who considered every single possible option and concluded they would not work to get Garland installed on the bench in any way that would make a difference for the Court.


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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #196)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 05:56 PM

199. Why are you so vested in twisting stuff.

Sure, it would have mattered. And no one - NO ONE - said Obama was stupid.

You do him nor the party any good when you twist and wind everything discussed into an insult and attack.

We disagree about how much a pocket appointment would have been a good thing. But you have to take that disagreement and turn it into me attacking the president that I donated to, canvassed for, and voted for. Shame.

I'll know not to engage you in intellectual discourse again in the future.

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Response to Jakes Progress (Reply #199)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 06:52 PM

200. What you call "twisting" is simply pointing out reality

 

Itís unfortunate that you find that so personally offensive,

FYI, I didnít accuse you of insulting President Obama. You didnít say anything - I was referring to the author of the article you linked to who took it upon himself to lecture the president about what he should do about the nomination as if the President didnít carefully consider all of his options. The author clearly didnít know what he was talking about and didnít understand how the Court calendar works but felt entitled to give instructions to President Obama.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #200)

Thu Jul 5, 2018, 05:04 PM

205. Duck how you will

as you change you point to suit your animus and preset reactions. When called out, you say you didn't mean what you said. You didn't say "I messed up" or "sorry for being imprecise". Just "Oh, I didn't mean what the words said, and you should know that."

Again. We could have debated the value of a pocket veto. It could have been interesting. I have read and agreed with you so many times, but I see that disagreeing with you is a sin you cannot let be.

Peace.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 03:06 PM

159. I agree that this is a major issue

Together with the other issues that people raise it created a toxic cocktail.

I'm not wild for our Dem Senator Bennett. But it's out of the question for me to not vote for him. If he's primaried next time I'll still have to think about what to do. If it will mean a loss to the Republican I'll support Bennett from the start.

I'd like the luxury of being able to always vote my heart. But that isn't always realistic if I want a Dem majority and then keep it. A lot of pragmatism goes into politics.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 04:06 PM

161. From the Last Word-there is no magic way to block a vote

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #161)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 10:51 AM

192. There is no way to block a vote... probably...

...If we can control the House and have 60 votes in the Senate, we can impeach justices from the SCOTUS. NO ONE even wants to talk about this, because it would break protocol and tradition. I say TO HELL with protocol and tradition.

I SAY LOUDLY: If the Mueller investigation shows that tRump* himself colluded with Russia to get elected, then he is an illegitimate POTUS, and his appointments should be removed from office and his actions nullified, JUST THE FUCKING WAY HE IS DOING to nullify everything President Obama did.

Frankly, I would think that if tRump* has shown to be guilty of collusion --or worse, TREASON-- his political appointees, including Justices of the SCOTUS would resign out of respect for the Constitution and the Rule of Law. Unfortunately, these are Rethuglicans we are speaking about, and in their minds, they stole the two SCOTUS seats fair and square.

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 10:47 PM

177. How is it

the gop can resurrect some esoteric congressional rule time after time....and/or lie about it....and we all go along with it? Where's our research staff? Where's our congressional repository of old style gimmicks etc? Sometimes the gop just makes this shit up and it works (if nothing else) to delay the hearings and vote. if a hearing does come...it should be mid-november bc congress (as per their own scheduling history) is booked up months in advance.
If Roe is over turned...every pulpit in every church will sing the praises of dt. They can and will do it, and the gop has implemented laws that say they still pay no tax. Not sure about any of you but, if you gotta punt or stretch the truth to save our country...then...let's pull the pin on that fricken smoke grenade and toss it in to delay the thing. Why does it only work for the gop, and we just go along with it???..."Oh, we found an OLD arcane rule, and we are going to use it." If i had ten dollars for every time something like that was heard on cspan etc...I could buy us all a drink.
OUR COUNTRY IS AT STAKE HERE. THAT"S NO SHIT. TRY EVERYTHING...imo.
We have everything to lose.
And talking about/like what they want, only normalizes the whole affair imo. Say our position and walk away. if the gop has to go it alone, then that in itself is enough.
aside...PLEASE WV,...smarten up enough to know Joe MAnchin is playing you like your daddys home made ukulele. He says he's Democrat to fool you. Stop the Manchin madness, or vote for a repub bc in your heart you know you are.

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Response to Crutchez_CuiBono (Reply #177)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 11:24 PM

178. The GOP isn't resurrecting any esoteric rules. They're BREAKING the rules.

 

And as the minority party, thereís nothing we can do about it since we donít control the rules.

One of the reasons itís stupid to play purity politics and try to get rid of certain members and senators because theyíre not progressive enough. We need to have the numbers, even if some on our side arenít as progressive as we want them to be. Instead, we had a mad and let the Republicans take the majority. Until we get the majority back, we have very few options, no matter how much we scream and yell - and being so pissed at Manchin that we threaten to let his seat go to a Republican means nothing other than the possibility weíll have even less power.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #178)

Tue Jul 3, 2018, 11:31 PM

179. Replace Manchin w another Dem. He doesn't vote w us anyway Effie.

I hear what you're saying and completely on board w what you're saying. I'm suggesting trying new things so the permanent ones don;t happen. Like another nut job SCJ. Just my view of it.
I know the gop seems like they can stop anything...for a while by doing this shit. All we need is 4 months. The closer the election gets the stronger the position to wait until after the election. I dunno. I hear and respect your position. Honestly.
I just think we need to step up the game a bit. We are after all, the learned side of humanity.
Just spitballin Effie.
Happy Independence Day Week!!(By the way)

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Response to Crutchez_CuiBono (Reply #179)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 06:43 AM

186. Exactly how do you propose "replacing him with another Dem" in the next four months?

 

Even if you could figure out a way to force him out of office - which is highly unlikely - the governor of West Virginia is a Republican who, of course, would appoint a Republican to fill the remainder of his term, which runs through 2023.

And that completely ignores the basic fact that he was duly elected by Democrats in his state who don't seem interested in replacing him with another Democrat, certainly not a more liberal one. They got the Senator they voted for who votes the way they want him to. The national leadership and Democrats from other states can't - and shouldn't - change that any more than they can come into my state or yours and tell you that the Senator you voted for is too conservative or too liberal.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #186)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 07:08 AM

188. By wishful thinking...how else?

Just an opinion board so we all stay sane. Wishful thinking....out loud. I don't recall giving a timeline. I mean overall. Bluedog repubs...erm Dems who vote for Repubs aren't really Dems and should'nt be allowed to run as such. I think he should be primaried and replaced with a true democrat WHENEVER the chance arises. That's my point. Short and sweet.
IN THE ORIGINAL POST...the whole Manchin thing was an ASIDE. Just a rejoinder, nothing more Mrs Effie.
Happy 4th of July!

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 08:54 PM

202. I agree with your point. But stop calling democrats...

Or members of the Democratic Party dems.

That is a right wing smear.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #202)

Wed Jul 4, 2018, 10:10 PM

203. Hunh? "Dems" is a smear? That's news to me

 

And probably news to a whole lot of Democrats who use the term, including the House Democratic Caucus(dems.gov), Senate Democrats (#senatedems), and several state Democratic parties (@OHDems, @MichiganDems, @NHDems, @FLADems, @SoDakDems), etc.

Where did you hear that "Dems" is a "right wing smear?"

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 9, 2018, 01:45 PM

210. From Betty Bowers

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Response to EffieBlack (Original post)

Mon Jul 9, 2018, 05:04 PM

213. I wonder what you think about this law professor's article.

Is the lawsuit he describes worth a shot?

P.S. I agree about not calling Democrats weak. That's biting off our nose to spite our face.

http://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/395696-the-mcconnell-rule-is-law-and-senate-democrats-should-sue-to-enforce-it

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