Were Alamo defenders 'heroic'? Committee suggests removing the word from Texas curriculum.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

Last edited Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:57 PM - Edit history (1)

Lt. Col. William B. Travis was nine days from his death at the Alamo, alongside about 200 others, when he wrote a desperate appeal for help in the struggle of Texas independence from Mexico.

Mexican Gen. Antonio López de Santa Anna had laid siege to the mission, he wrote, and Travis had already declined to lay down his arms. “I have answered the demand with a cannon shot, & our flag still waves proudly from the walls — I shall never surrender or retreat.”

There was no retreat. The defenders were killed within two hours on Mar. 6, 1836, and the few survivors were executed. Initially forgotten, the battle site later became a shrine of Texan pride, with the defenders often likened to Greek warriors tragically bested at Thermopylae.

But were the defenders heroes?

That is something the Texas Board of Education will decide in the coming months after a working group recommended it strike requirements to teach “heroic” acts of the defenders, touching off a fierce debate about history and education that reached the governor's office.

Until now, Texas state curriculum has urged the idea of heroics taught to seventh graders in a required history course, along with a careful study of Travis's letter written in the year Texas gained independence from Mexico.

But working groups of educators and historians, tasked with streamlining social studies standards, have advised the Texas Board of Education to remove a focus on “heroic” acts at the Alamo, calling the term “value-loaded,” according to a draft of their recommendations. Those change should free up about 90 minutes of class time, the working group said.

Current curriculum requires study of “all the heroic defenders.” That language makes the list of figures — which include legendary frontiersmen Davy Crockett and James Bowie — too long to cover, the working groups said. The groups also suggested much less focus on Travis's letter.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/were-alamo-defenders-heroic-committee-suggests-removing-the-word-from-texas-curriculum/ar-BBN3yy7?li=BBnb7Kz

[oasis]

1. Any candidate running for office in Texas, had better call them "heroes".

Just sayin'.

[texasfiddler]

2. I think Trump should weigh in on this

I imagine he would say something like:

-I prefer heroes who aren't killed.
-If I was at the Alamo, the Mexicans would have been defeated. Believe me!

The Trump supporters in Texas would eat it up.

[riversedge]

26. The Alamo would fit perfectly with his guns and flag rhetoric. But lets keep it quiet.

[Aristus]

3. No, they weren't 'heroic'. It's about damned time this issue was addressed.

I was born and raised in Texas. And Texas history classes teach the 'heroism' of the Alamo the way science classes teach gravity, or the speed of light. They elevate historical figures in a way that sounds like hagiography.

I didn't understand until I was in my teens, and far from the poisonous atmosphere of the Texas public school system that most of the leaders of the Alamo defenders were slave owners whose sole purpose in seeking Texan independence from Mexico was to expand the institution of slavery. Mexico had banned slavery some fifteen years previously.

Anyone not convinced of Texas' love of its own mythology should take a look at the typical textbook on Texas State history. When I was attending school down there, that book was three times the size of the U.S History textbook.

[braddy]

4. It is undeniable that they died heroically.

[Aristus]

5. Not if I'm denying it.

If one chooses to die for a vile cause, one is not a hero, but a vile person. No need to genuflect.

[braddy]

6. You seem incapable of recognizing heroism, they earned their place among history's bravest

warriors and are known as such by the warriors of the world.

[Aristus]

10. See what I mean? Hagiography.

I recognize heroism for what it is, and this ain't it.

Celebrating slave owners seems to be a very un-DU thing. There are other websites for that...

[braddy]

12. Heroism is what they did in battle, not in what you dislike about a few of them. You might also

ask yourself how the Mexicans treated the POWs and wounded who survived the heroic last stand.

[Aristus]

13. They treated them abominably. I'm sure we would have done the same.

As far as the Mexican soldiers were concerned, they were fighting for Mexico, their own nation. They were analogous to the Federal troops in our Civil War. Now of course, Grant offered the defeated rebels the most generous surrender terms in all of recorded history. But the days of the Americans being the ones “you wanted to surrender to”, are long-gone. We treat our POW’s shamefully. So we’re in no position to castigate the Mexicans for their treatment of white supremacist slave-owners.

[braddy]

14. They murdered them just as they did in other battles of the war, and we didn't do that

when we defeated Mexicans.

You seem to think the Alamo defenders were all white and all slave owners and evidently that one of histories greatest last stands wasn't heroic, oh well.

[Aristus]

15. Well, the event didn't change. The historical perspective is what changed.

It’s the same with Custer’s Last Stand. It was viewed as heroic for generations. Until people realized that it was simply a righteous ass-kicking by a people who were being deliberately subjected to an attempt at genocide.

Thanks to the emerging historical narratives by Lakota historians, and films like ‘Little Big Man’, we can now see Custer and his men for the murderous thugs they were.

[Adrahil]

18. But let's not over-romanticize Mexico.....

Mexico exploited native peoples throughout the 19th century. It was one of the causes of the revolution.

Having said that, I don’t personally think the use of words that imply judgement is good practice in history. Present the favts as best we know them, leave judgment to the individual reader. Otherwise, we have indoctrination, not education.

[Aristus]

22. That's valid.

And I don’t over-romanticize the Mexicans. Santa Anna was Mexico’s George W. Bush, the abysmally incompetent scion of a politically powerful family.

But Mexico did abolish slavery before we did. They have that in their favor.

[Drahthaardogs]

31. Mexico outlawed slavery long before the U.S

And even slavery in Mexico was kinder and gentler. Children of slaves were born free

The British we're sick fucks and no one practiced slavery with the cruelty and meanness of the Brits. Sometimes I wonder if the Romans would have just put every last Sazin to the sword how the world would look

[Adrahil]

32. Errr.... okay?

I speaking of the exploitation of natives, which continued throughout the 19th century.

[Drahthaardogs]

34. So am I.

I meant Saxon. The British empire was cruel. If the Romans had just wiped them out, I wonder what the world would be like. Probably better. ..

[HAB911]

9. I lived in Virginia for a few years

same situation there, they are eat up with it

[raccoon]

17. I didn't know that until a few years ago.

most of the leaders of the Alamo defenders were slave owners whose sole purpose in seeking Texan independence from Mexico was to expand the institution of slavery. Mexico had banned slavery some fifteen years previously.

[Hoyt]

27. Agree completely. I live among those who think confederate soldiers were heroes, fighting for state

rights . . . . . to own, beat, and rape people. Nothing heroic about that.

[unblock]

7. I just think they should give equal time for the battles of hertz and avis

[dalton99a]

8. and Cpt Kirk of the Enterprise

[dembotoz]

11. heroes seem to be reserved for the side that wins

just being capt obvious

to use the alamo as a template wouldn't the Japanese troops on Iwo Jima also deserve such a title?

[Kaleva]

16. I don't see an issue with calling the Japanese defenders on Iwo Jima heroic.

[dembotoz]

19. i don't either, but i do not think we are in the majority on this

[Kaleva]

25. If you go by the definition of "heroirc" as found in any dictionary, we are in the majority.

[Adrahil]

21. "Heroic" is laden with values, though.

Brave? Sure. Valorous? Fancy, but yeah. But heroism, in my boew, is a term that validates their cause. It’s not good historical practice.

At the least, we have to separate opinion fron history.

[Kaleva]

24. Some synonyms of heroic.

Brave, courageous, valiant, valorous, lionhearted, superhuman, intrepid, bold, fearless, daring, and audacious.

"Definition of heroic
1 : of or relating to courageous people or the mythological or legendary figures of antiquity : of, relating to, resembling, or suggesting heroes especially of antiquity

heroic legends

the heroic age

2 a : exhibiting or marked by courage and daring

It was a heroic decision.

b : supremely noble or self-sacrificing

a heroic gesture

received medals for their heroic actions

3 a : of impressive size, power, extent, or effect

a heroic voice

b (1) : of great intensity : extreme

heroic effort

(2) : of a kind that is likely only to be undertaken to save a life

heroic surgery

4 : of, relating to, or constituting drama written during the Restoration in heroic couplets and concerned with a conflict between love and honor"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heroic

[Spider Jerusalem]

20. They were brave, but not heroic

The Texas war of independence was over slavery. Mexico abolished it; the American settlers in Texas wanted to keep it.

[Aristus]

23. Thank you for putting it that way.

I think I failed to convey exactly that in my posts above.

[keithbvadu2]

28. Alamo? This guy better never drive to Texas.

Alamo? This guy better never drive to Texas.

I think the lady is from the other vehicle.

[Trueblue Texan]

29. I'm a proud Texan, BUT...

...I've always thought the battle of the Alamo was waged by damned fools. They were told not to stay, that they were sitting ducks. Sure enough, they were. What's so damned heroic about foolishness?

[blue cat]

30. I am a descendant of both sides of the Alamo

And my mother accepted some kind of reward having to do with the Alamo when I was a kid and she was 100% Mexican American. I’m sorry now that I didn’t ask her more about it but I was a kid and remember feeling proud.

[TygrBright]

33. The difference between "gallantry" and "heroism" is often misunderstood.

Gallantry leads people to die for their beliefs.

Even racist traitor losers like the Confederate rebels could die gallantly.

Heroism leads people to die for the salvation of others.

Many of those who've been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously, died heroically.

The defenders of the Alamo died gallantly.

They did not die heroically.

helpfully,
Bright