HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Putting Serena Williams i...

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 09:07 AM

Putting Serena Williams into perspective ...

https://www.fastcompany.com/90234350/was-serena-williams-treated-fairly-ask-these-tennis-bad-boys-who-did-much-worse

<big snip>

Would a male player have been treated the same way? Not likely. The Women’s Tennis Association and the U.S. Tennis Association both released statements supporting Williams. (The Guardian notes that while Ramos is a stickler for rules, he has “never penalized a player a game in such a high-stakes match” before.) WTA president Steve Simon noted the “difference in the standards of tolerance provided to the emotions expressed by men versus women” and USTA president Katrina Adams called out the “double standard” in treatment in an interview with ESPN. “I know what Serena did and her behavior was not welcome,” she said. “It’s a judgment call to give that last penalty because she called him a thief. They’ve been called a lot more.”

Adams’s comment speaks to a culture in which women who act out are punished while men are written off as “bad boys” who are just doing what boys do. There is plenty to back up her claim: Male tennis pros James Blake and Andy Roddick both admitted on Twitter to having said far worse to umpires and having no real repercussions. In the interest of keeping the discussion alive, we rounded up a few more examples here:


Novak Djokovic got into an argument with the same umpire, Ramos, at the French Open, and called him “crap”. While he received multiple warnings, he did not have any points or games docked.

Rafael Nadal threatened Ramos at the 2017 French Open. He got two verbal warnings, but did not have a point or game docked.

Andre Agassi got a warning for an audible obscenity at the U.S. Open and then called the umpire a “son of a bitch.” Play went on.

Marcos Baghdatis smashed four rackets during the 2012 Australian Open, but didn’t lose a point or a game. He did have to pay a $1,250 fine.

Nick Kyrgios got in a yelling match with Ramos at the 2018 Australian Open, but no code violations were issued.

Andy Murray got a code violation for allegedly calling the same umpire, Ramos, “stupid” at the Rio Olympics. Murray claims he called the umpiring stupid.

Novak Djokovic screamed at Ramos during the 2018 Wimbledon tournament, threw his racket, and even pretended to throw the ball at the umpire, but never lost a point or a game.

Andy Murray kicked a ball at an umpire’s head during a 2016 match, but did not get a code or point penalty.


To be fair, it’s not just men: Coco Vanderweghe was issued several warnings and a code violation for yelling at the umpire because there were no bananas on the court, and then calling her opponent a “fucking bitch.” She did not lose points or a game.

39 replies, 4146 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 39 replies Author Time Post
Reply Putting Serena Williams into perspective ... (Original post)
marble falls Sep 2018 OP
malaise Sep 2018 #1
TreasonousBastard Sep 2018 #2
Hermit-The-Prog Sep 2018 #5
True Dough Sep 2018 #21
marble falls Sep 2018 #6
TreasonousBastard Sep 2018 #13
OnlinePoker Sep 2018 #18
Orangeutan Sep 2018 #23
Perseus Sep 2018 #26
Orangeutan Sep 2018 #30
Codeine Sep 2018 #33
wellst0nev0ter Sep 2018 #39
treestar Sep 2018 #27
djacq Sep 2018 #3
Post removed Sep 2018 #9
Eliot Rosewater Sep 2018 #36
heaven05 Sep 2018 #4
JHan Sep 2018 #7
Demit Sep 2018 #8
Nitram Sep 2018 #10
marble falls Sep 2018 #11
infullview Sep 2018 #12
Post removed Sep 2018 #14
infullview Sep 2018 #19
AnotherMother4Peace Sep 2018 #15
Quixote1818 Sep 2018 #38
geardaddy Sep 2018 #16
Reader Rabbit Sep 2018 #17
spanone Sep 2018 #20
Glorfindel Sep 2018 #22
ProfessorGAC Sep 2018 #24
treestar Sep 2018 #28
Glorfindel Sep 2018 #29
Codeine Sep 2018 #34
Perseus Sep 2018 #25
Me. Sep 2018 #31
elias7 Sep 2018 #32
cwydro Sep 2018 #35
MichMan Sep 2018 #37

Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 09:28 AM

1. Good read

Rec

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 09:47 AM

2. Depends on the ref, the venue, and even the stadium and country...

Wasn't McEnroe called out all the time? Connors? The trick with both of them is that they knew the third strike cost you the game and got their shots in early. Bad boy reps are fine, but keep your game in.

Serena just didn't know when to quit. Bad call or not, you only got one or two chances to blow up and then it's all over.

Are the judges tougher on the women? I really don't know-- if they are, may be the real question is why not tougher on the men?

I suspect the truth is everyone is more comfortable watching the men blow a gasket, but who really knows...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:02 AM

5. evidence is in the OP

Ample contrast has been presented regarding Ramos, specifically. Williams received unfair treatment by the standard this "ref" has used in the past.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hermit-The-Prog (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 11:20 AM

21. I was just saying to my wife last night

that a key measure here would be the umpire's record. Has he penalized players before in similar circumstances. If the answer is no, then it does seem to lend credence to prejudice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:08 AM

6. We both agree that Serena and McEnroe aren't in the same league comportment ....

wise.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/171029/FOR-THE-RECORD-MCENROES-TANTRUMS-AND-FINES.html

The record of John McEnroe's altercations with tennis authorities since he broke into the international circuit in 1977.

June 1977 - Screamed obscenities at French Open line judge while winning mixed doubles final with Mary Carillo, but was not fined.July 1980 - Earned first major warning at Wimbledon for behavior during semifinal against Jimmy Connors.

July 1981 - Fined a total of $6,000 at Wimbledon when he called chair umpire "pits of the world" and told him, "You cannot be serious!" Referee Fred Hoyles said he had come within two tantrums of disqualification during early match against Tom Gulliksen. Defeated Bjorn Borg in a four-set final, but boycotted champions dinner, resulting in another fine. Recommended additional fine of $10,000 overturned on appeal.

May 1983 - Fined $1,000 for calling Czech opponent Tomas Smid a "communist bastard" at Forest Hills event.

June 1983 - Fined $3,500 for clashing with photographer at courtside during French Open.

July 1983 - Fined $325 for swearing at spectator during Wimbledon. Fines during the year totalled $7,500.

May 1984 - Fined $7,500 for misconduct during Stockholm Open.

June 1984 - Accrued fines totalling $3,500 for swearing at linesman and other verbal abuse during match against Connors at French Open.

January 1985 - Dropped from U.S. Davis Cup team after "outrageous behavior" during 1984 final defeat by Sweden.

June 1985 - Loses honorary membership of London's Queen's Club for abusing chairman's wife while practicing. McEnroe later was reinstated.

December 1985 - Fined $3,500 for three separate offenses at Australian Open, culminating with verbal abuse of opponent Slobodan Zivojinovic.

January 1986 - Beaten by Brad Gilbert at Masters finals in New York and fined $1,000 for arguing with spectators.

September 1986 - Received fines totalling $3,500 at U.S. Open after he and partner Peter Fleming were disqualified for arriving late for men's doubles match. Fine broke down to $750 for being late and $2,750 for saying what he thought about the disqualification.

April 1987 - Fined $2,000 for time-wasting during match at WCT event in Dallas.

May 1987 - Fined $4,000 for walking off court during World Cup in Dusseldorf.

September 1987 - Suspended two months and fined $10,000 for various offenses at U.S. Open.

July 1988 - Warned for racket abuse during defeat against Australian Wally Masur at Wimbledon.

July 1989 - Australian John Fitzgerald, a fourth-round loser to McEnroe, accuses him of using tantrums to put off opponents.

January 1990 - Thrown out of Australian Open and fined $6,500 after receiving third warning for misbehavior against Mikael Pernfors.

April 1991 - McEnroe admits own behavior on court "sickens me" after receiving a code violation and point penalty during defeat by fellow American Todd Witsken in Hong Kong.

July 1991 - Fined $10,000 for swearing at linesman in Wimbledon loss against Stefan Edberg, picked up by television microphone.

Total fines - $69,500.


How do we equate Serena's ONE blow up to all that? And Serena has spent 4 or 5 more years on the tour than McEnroe did.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:22 AM

13. Didn't really say or mean we could-- just that Mac was maybe a little slicker about...

going off the rails.

He was as much a showman as a tennis player.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 11:01 AM

18. It isn't just one blow up

This is from the 2009 U.S. Open. Serena lost a point and the match due to a similar incident after being called for a foot fault. Start at 14 minutes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OnlinePoker (Reply #18)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 11:54 AM

23. Is that the one where she tells the Asian female line judge

"I'm going to ram this f---ing ball down your f---ing throat?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orangeutan (Reply #23)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 12:00 PM

26. Yes, that is the one

 

I like Serena, I admire what she has done, and continues to do, but she can go on a tantrum and get very nasty.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Perseus (Reply #26)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 01:26 PM

30. Possibly 'roid-induced rage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orangeutan (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 03:11 PM

33. She's one of the most-tested players in tennis.

 

If she were juicing we’d know.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Orangeutan (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 07:44 PM

39. Welcome to DU, btw

 

enjoy your stay

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 12:09 PM

27. "time wasting"

I wish that was an offense in every profession!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 09:58 AM

3. If Ramos has a history, where's the accountability?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to djacq (Reply #3)


Response to djacq (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 05:03 PM

36. Dont look for it in some places, cant say where, but should be self evident

So sick of the RAMPANT racism and misogyny.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 09:59 AM

4. a good, instructive

 

OP for many. Other's not so much as I have read. Thank you

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:12 AM

7. K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:12 AM

8. Watch Baghdatis break 4 racquets, note the indulgent smile of the chair ump at the end:

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:14 AM

10. Thanks for sharing. I'll share this on FB.

I feel Williams was badly mistreated by an insecure umpire.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Nitram (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:15 AM

11. Ramos seems to have a real problem judging Serena Williams.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:20 AM

12. So sick of hearing about this...

With so many other incredibly important stories that need to be covered do we really need to spend so much time and effort to hash and rehash this?

Rome is burning and the media is fiddling...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to infullview (Reply #12)


Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 11:14 AM

19. never said I didn't care - just sick of being bombarded with the same story over and over agian

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to infullview (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:29 AM

15. K&R - yes "we" really do need this examined.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to infullview (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 06:28 PM

38. And yet here you are clicking on it and spending time thinking out a response. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:30 AM

16. K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 10:59 AM

17. Thank you for posting this.

I have been really disheartened by all the Serena-bashing here at DU. I wish people would realize that it is never a bad time to challenge the patriarchy!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 11:16 AM

20. K&R...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 11:49 AM

22. I wonder if Ms Williams would get more respect if she weren't always called "Serena"

While male players are almost always called by their last names ("McEnroe," for example), women, in almost all walks of life are referred to by their first names, as if they were little girls undeserving of respect. "Serena" "Hillary" "Omarosa"

Just a pet peeve of mine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Glorfindel (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 11:54 AM

24. Nonsense

LeBron is Lebron. Not Mr. James.

Stephan Curry is referred to as Steph.

Kobe Bryant was Kobe.

O'Neal was Shaq internationally.

Jordan was Michael to the whole freakin' world.

Even in tennis, Nadal is referred to as Rafa, all the time.

Martina was Martina, not Ms. Navratalova. She referred to herself that way early in her career, knowing her last name was a mouthful. And if Serena were "Williams" it could confuse people since her own sister has been there the same period of their careers.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Glorfindel (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 12:11 PM

28. I figured Hillary did that on her own

so as to make no confusion with Bill.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to treestar (Reply #28)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 12:47 PM

29. I'm sure you're correct, of course.

As I mentioned before, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Glorfindel (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 03:31 PM

34. I can accept that in her case

 

it’s mostly about distinguishing her from Venus.

But in a more general sense, you’re entirely correct.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 11:58 AM

25. The rules need to be implemented on all levels equally

 

But this should not be any excuse for Serena's behaviour. I am a fan of Serena, but her actions last Saturday cannot be condoned, she acted in a way that cannot be accepted and the punishment fit the crime in this case.

Is there an argument for the fact that men are being treated better, that men are getting away with more? I will not dispute that, but what the Tennis organization needs to do is to make sure the rules are enforced equally and the punishment given when the actions merit it to both men and women, but please stop excusing Serena, she should have never acted that way, it was unfair to her young opponent and unsportsmanlike.

Should Djokovic, Nadal and the rest been punished? Of course they should have, but so should have and did Serena, now enforce the rules equally to make sure good behaviour prevails in Tennis. Tennis is supposed to be a spot of Gentlemen and women, the days of misbehaving of John McEnroe and Jimmy Connors cannot comeback.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 01:40 PM

31. Here's A Good Read About This

“Chair umpire Carlos Ramos managed to rob not one but two players in the women’s U.S. Open final. Nobody has ever seen anything like it: An umpire so wrecked a big occasion that both players, Naomi Osaka and Serena Williams alike, wound up distraught with tears streaming down their faces during the trophy presentation and an incensed crowd screamed boos at the court. Ramos took what began as a minor infraction and turned it into one of the nastiest and most emotional controversies in the history of tennis, all because he couldn’t take a woman speaking sharply to him.

Williams abused her racket, but Ramos did something far uglier: He abused his authority. Champions get heated — it’s their nature to burn. All good umpires in every sport understand that the heart of their job is to help temper the moment, to turn the dial down, not up, and to be quiet stewards of the event rather than to let their own temper play a role in determining the outcome. Instead, Ramos made himself the chief player in the women’s final. He marred Osaka’s first Grand Slam title and one of Williams’s last bids for all-time greatness. Over what? A tone of voice. Male players have sworn and cursed at the top of their lungs, hurled and blasted their equipment into shards, and never been penalized as Williams was in the second set of the U.S. Open final.”…cont…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/tennis/at-us-open-power-of-serena-williams-and-naomi-osaka-is-overshadowed-by-an-umpires-power-play/2018/09/08/edbf46c8-b3b4-11e8-a20b-5f4f84429666_story.html?utm_term=.dc1ff9c25103

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 03:05 PM

32. Why can't it be a race thing? Or a Serena thing? Rather than a gender thing...

Why the emphasis on this being a male/female thing? Maybe the umpire was racist. Maybe the umpire was being pressured to call the coaches coaching on the sideline more tightly. I don’t know the impetus for the original call, but if this should not have been called, it should be investigated.

But her getting further penalties? I watched it and was not surprised at the escalation. Serena could not let it go. Between points and games she kept going back up the umpire and ranting. It was clear that she interpreted the initial call as questioning her honor, but it was like watching a soccer game a knowing a red card was coming, or a basketball game a knowing a T was about to be called. She was out of control, and I say that as someone who has watched a lot of sports, and would say it regardless of her gender, race, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to elias7 (Reply #32)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 04:58 PM

35. Plus it was absolute bs to say she never gets coaching.

Her own coach admitted it. Serena acts badly when she loses. She’s done this before, and worse.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marble falls (Original post)

Tue Sep 11, 2018, 06:23 PM

37. She is a role model to all kinds of players

I wonder how many of those excusing her behavior would tolerate their own kids acting that way by destroying their racquet and berating a referee because they were losing a match

Regarding the officiating; in my opinion, as long as he is treating both players the same it really doesn't matter. I am confused about the coaching issue; if she couldn't see him, why was he doing it then? Doesn't make any sense

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread