SpicyFiles: Kavanaugh claimed debt because of home repair, but no permits for such work exist.

[pnwmom]

He listed specific work he had to do -- like with his heating system -- that would require city/county permits, and there were no permits.

Maybe he found someone to work without them? Or at least, he should have the receipts.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Nope, what I am saying is the repairs Kavanaugh offered to “explain” his debt...there’s zero permit showing those repairs occurred.

If he presents actual receipts, SOW & other governmental records to show he had these repairs done, I’ll drop it.
12:06 PM - Sep 18, 2018

NONE of the aforementioned permit applications and approval while Kavanaugh owned the home 2006
His written answers about home repairs, he likely lied.
Again I’m not giving you his home address, even though it’s public information, I do not condone doxing

Bottom line?
I can not locate ANY building permits which ARE required by MD, Montgomery County & VCC:

HVAC replacement
Hot Water heater
Roof repair/replace
Porch repair/replace
Drainage
I also checked for any land use or special exemption “waivers”= NONE

[ProudMNDemocrat]

1. Paying off those gambling debts perhaps?

Borrowing from Peter to pay off Paul. That is what addicted gamblers do.

[MurrayDelph]

10. I does follow the definition of

betting the house.

[Kingofalldems]

2. Lock him up.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

3. Is there any corner these guys won't cut? Any lie they won't say? . . . nt

[torius]

4. Mother Jones article on his mysterious finances

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/09/the-many-mysteries-of-brett-kavanaughs-finances/

[FBaggins]

5. I don't think SpicyFiles is correct

Montgomery County MD doesn't require permits for the repairs listed above.

https://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/DPS/pdf/HomeImprovements_en.pdf
https://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/dps/customerservice/homeimprovements.aspx

Ordinary repairs to buildings may be made without application or notice to the department; but such repairs shall not include the cutting away of any wall, partition or portion thereof, the removal or cutting of any structural beam or bearing support or the removal or change of any required means of egress or rearrangement of parts of a structure affecting the exitway requirements; nor shall ordinary repairs include addition to, alteration of, replacement or relocation of any standpipe, water supply, sewer, drainage, drain leader, gas, soil, waste, vent or similar piping, electric wiring or mechanical or other work affecting public health or general s

afety.

Just as important... failure to get a permit is rarely a legal issue. It's incredibly common to see such work done without a permit. They mostly exist to protect you (i.e., making sure the work was done correctly and you don't damage the value of your property for future resale)

[Fred Sanders]

6. FBaggins is right, Spicy is wrong...Spicy needs a legal eye to help him sometimes!

Great info...wrong accusations do not help.

[SergeStorms]

9. Yep.

Replacing a water heater? A new roof? A new furnace? No to any of these requiring a permit. Permit offices would have to be quadrupled in size if everyone had to get to do any of those. The only thing you need a permit for is if you're adding or changing structural aspects of an existing dwelling, or building a new home. These laws are pretty much standard country-wide with minor variances.

[pnwmom]

15. Can you see posts on Twitter? There is a statement here from the county that is pertinent.

And you are wrong about country wide. Here in WA we had to get a permit to get a new gas hot water heater, and a new gas furnace.

Link to tweet

[john657]

30. That's because it's gas,

different standards for gas appliances vs. electric appliances.

[catchnrelease]

26. Definitely varies

In Long Beach Ca putting on a new roof absolutely requires a permit. Putting up a pre-fab type patio/gazebo--need a permit. I can't speak to the other things mentioned, but I know about those. This city wants to wring out every penny they can.

[njhoneybadger]

61. Nope, need a permit for even a water heater in Nj

[pnwmom]

8. Spicy Files simply says Kavanaugh should produce the receipts. But where does it say here

that they can alter the gas HVAC system?

We've also had to get a permit and inspection to change a gas appliance.

[SergeStorms]

11. Not in most places.

As long as licensed HVAC personnel do the work. In which state do you live? They're pretty picky if they require a permit plus inspection of everyone putting in a new gas range or water heater. Not to mention incredibly busy.

[pnwmom]

13. WA. And we did. But look at the Maryland list.

Ordinary repairs to buildings may be made without application or notice to the department; but such repairs shall not include the cutting away of any wall, partition or portion thereof, the removal or cutting of any structural beam or bearing support or the removal or change of any required means of egress or rearrangement of parts of a structure affecting the exitway requirements; nor shall ordinary repairs include addition to, alteration of, replacement or relocation of any standpipe, water supply, sewer, drainage, drain leader, gas, soil, waste, vent or similar piping, electric wiring or mechanical or other work affecting public health or general s

[FBaggins]

21. That's a common misunderstanding

I just replaced my gas dryer with a new one. No permit required even though I had to replace a few fittings and the flexible gas line.

If, however, I wanted to move the dryer a few feet (and thus had to add two feet to the black gas piping)... a permit would be required (plus inspection and pressure testing).

Same thing goes for an HVAC unit. If you’re replacing an old unit with a new one and connecting to the same wiring panel on the outer wall of the house... you don’t need a permit. If you want to move the unit around the corner and run a new line or coolant line... you need a permit.

[Kaleva]

28. You need a permit to replace a furnace. At least in Michigan.

"Instructions:
This permit is for direct replacement connections only on conventional LP or natural gas storage water heaters, electric water heaters or tankless water heaters or the replacement of residential heating systems/HVAC. 1956 PA 217 and the Michigan Electrical Part 8 rules allow plumbing and mechanical contractors to perform certain electrical wiring as defined in the act as well as secure electrical permits and inspections."

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/lara/lara_bcc_water_heater_hvac_permit_484922_7.pdf

I was a HVAC/R contractor here in Michigan for a number of years.

The reason for permits for furnaces, boilers, and water heaters is that once installed, they are considered part of the structure. Ovens and dryers are not.

[FBaggins]

32. Plenty of other places too

Furnaces are more complex.

Each area has their own rules... in some cases almost everything needs one. I can’t confirm personally, but I’ve even heard of ceiling fans needing a permit.

[Kaleva]

35. I'm confused by what you said earlier

"Same thing goes for an HVAC unit. If you’re replacing an old unit with a new one and connecting to the same wiring panel on the outer wall of the house... you don’t need a permit."

What is an HVAC unit? And why don't you need a permit to replace one?

[FBaggins]

42. I was referring to the heat pump outside

I agree that a furnace can be part of a system.

In the case of something like a heat pump (the exterior portion of an A/C unit) replacing one is actually quite straightforward if you aren’t changing the design of the overall system (e.g., adding capacity). Most reasonably handy homeowners could do it. You probably need a licensed contractor to charge the system though.

[Kaleva]

51. In Michigan, one would need a permit to replace a heat pump.

And very few homeowners could do the job as one needs special training and equipment to do the replacement. unless you are talking about self contained through the wall or window mounted units. They are considered appliances, not part of the structure and thus do not need a permit to replace and most any homeowner can do the job.

Here is a picture of two heat pumps one would need a permit to replace:



Here is a pic of one that you don't need a permit to replace:

[FBaggins]

55. People keep bringing up Michigan

Did Montgomery County switch states?

Seriously... each area has slightly different flavors on the permitting process... which is why I checked the relevant standards.

But I can’t agree on the complexity of replacing (not installing) a heat pump. Charging the system takes some special knowledge and equipment, but you probably have to have a licensed tech do that anyway. The rest isn’t that complex.

[Kaleva]

58. Info on Montgomery County, MD permit reguirements

"When Do I Need a Mechanical Permit?

A mechanical permit is required to erect, install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert or replace a mechanical heating, ventilating and air-conditioning system, the installation of which is regulated by the International Mechanical Code (IMC), International Fuel-Gas Code (IFGC) or the International Residential Code (IRC), as appropriate. These equipments include, but are not limited to furnaces, heat pumps, air-conditioning units, range hoods, cooling towers, chillers, fuel-oil tanks and piping system, boilers with less than 350,000 BTU combined capacity, LP-gas tanks and piping systems to the first regulator transitioning to utilization pressure."

https://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/dps/building/mechanicalpermit.aspx

[Kaleva]

16. "As long as licensed HVAC personnel do the work."

I know of no place where it's legal to skip a permit, where one is required, as long as a licensed HVAC contractor does the work. How would anyone in authority know if the person who did the work was licensed or not if no permit was filed?

[pnwmom]

17. Good point!

[SergeStorms]

67. Are you kidding?

Look in the yellow pages, or online advertisements. At least in New York state it will say "licensed HVAC sellers and installers". I can't vouch for other states, but New York isn't exactly a "anything goes" state. As I said, if you change anything structurally you'll need a permit, yes. But for installing a new appliance, water heater etc. no, a permit is not required.

[Kaleva]

68. You should refrain from posting info that is false and could put people's lives in jeopardy.

It's beyond stupid to use the yellow pages for information on state and local codes.

[SergeStorms]

69. Oh, alright......

thank you, all knowing and all judging Kaleva. I'll check with you before posting anything in the future, OK? Buh bye!

[Kaleva]

70. It doens't take much effort to get the correct info.

Making a phone call to a licensed heating or plumbing contractor, which you point out are listed in the yellow pages, would answer your question. Google searches are another way.

[tammywammy]

23. I'm in Texas and permits are required for all those

Replacing HVAC, water heater, fence, exterior door, lots of stuff. I had a new roof put on in July (yay golf ball sized hail), a permit was required for the roof and it was inspected by the city since I have gas in the house.

[Fred Sanders]

12. I do not believe anyone manufactures a gas fired HVAC.

Electric...and so is my water heater. If gas, you are right, permits required because a licensed gas fitter is required who gets them for you.

Furnaces are a different game.

[pnwmom]

14. Did you see these posts in the twitter thread? Especially the second one?

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[FBaggins]

22. He's not reading that correctly

It doesn’t say “You need a permit unless”

It says that you don’t need one for the list on the right... and MAY need one for the list on the left.

He’s also missing that “construction, demolishing, adding, installing, altering” does not include repairing or replacing.

[pnwmom]

25. From Montgomery County: "When a Building Permit is Required"

https://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/dps/building/additionsandalterations.aspx

When is a Building Permit Required?

If you are building, installing, and/or altering any of the following you may need a building permit:

Addition
Basement-existing
Deck
Driveway (apron only)
Electrical Work
Exterior Work on Historic Property
Fence
Fire Repair
Garage
Hot tub
HVAC/Heating (replacing)
Interior Alteration
Retaining Wall
Replacing structural members of roof framing, including sheathing
Solar Panels
Shed
Signs
Sunroom
Swimming Pool
A wood burning stove/fireplace installation
Change the size of doors and windows or make new openings for same
Change a building's use
Structural alterations

[FBaggins]

29. The word you keep missing is "may".

And that “building, installing, and/or altering” does not include repairing/replacing if you aren’t changing the original design. Replace a 3-ton heat pump with a new 3-ton unit? No permit. Change to a 4-rob that needs a larger coolant line? Pull a permit.

And as before- the whole debate is silly because failure to pull a permit when required simply isn’t a big deal.

[john657]

31. You are absolutely correct.

I'm a licensed contractor, own my own construction company, I have to know the building codes and permits inside out, and I can tell you that what you said is 100% correct.

What most keep missing is the word "altering" which means your changing the original design, or placement, if all you're doing is replacing the original unit with no alterations, then you probably don't need a permit.

And you're right, a homeowner not pulling a permit is not a criminal offense, it's a civil matter, not usually enforced.

[pnwmom]

45. That's not the point. The point is that he should prove where he spent all that money,

not just say he spent it on home repairs that don't appear to have required any permits.

[john657]

46. Why does he have to provide proof that's where the money went?

[pnwmom]

57. He had large amounts of unexplained debt -- between $60K and 200K --

that magically disappeared last year. They are looking into why he owed so much money and how he so quickly paid it off on his income.

Some of the possibilities have included gambling and spending lots of money on sports tickets. He finally said he spent it on his house.

[john657]

60. That sounds plausible.

I've had clients who've spent that much, and more, on renovations to their houses.

To me, that's not a big deal, now his lying to congress while under oath is a huge deal, that alone should be enough to DQ him from the SC.

[pnwmom]

62. First he said most of it was on season tickets -- a bunch of them for him and his friends.

And all of them suddenly paid him back for them a year ago -- after owing the money for years.

Then he changed his story to add the claims about the house.

That's why it seems so sketchy.

[john657]

64. How do you know it's not a combination of both?

I'm not going to ding him for that, it's his lying to congress and his stand on the most important issues that have me convinced that he is a horrible choice for the SC and should be denied confirmation.

[pnwmom]

65. Because he changed his story. n/t

[Fred Sanders]

34. Still no word on the gas fired HVAC manufacturers! And roofing repair is clearly no permit required.

Spicy got that real wrong on the roof...and altered his original Tweet to put (gas) after HVAC!

[pnwmom]

40. If you click on any of those links there is an application.

In my county we had to get a permit to replace our furnace and to replace our hot water heater. This isn't surprising. Both use gas and they tested to make sure there was no leak.

[FBaggins]

48. As I said... I just replaced my gas dryer

No permit needed despite new gas line fittings (never reuse the common install kits)

Moved my gas hot water heater to the other side of a wall... had to get a permit.

[Kaleva]

18. Michigan requires a permit for replacement of an electric water heater

"Instructions:
This permit is for direct replacement connections only on conventional LP or natural gas storage water heaters, electric water heaters or tankless water heaters or
the replacement of residential heating systems/HVAC. 1956 PA 217 and the Michigan Electrical Part 8 rules allow plumbing and mechanical contractors to perform
certain electrical wiring as defined in the act as well as secure electrical permits and inspections."

A homeowner can do the work himself:

" Homeowner Affidavit
I hereby certify the electrical, mechanical and/or plumbing work described on this permit application shall be installed
by myself in my own home
in which I am
living or about to occupy. All work shall be installed in accordance with all Michigan Codes and
shall not be enclosed, covered up, or put into operation
until
it has been
inspected
and
approved
by the State Inspector. I will cooperate with the State Inspector and assume the responsibility to arrange for necessary
inspections."

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/lara/lara_bcc_water_heater_hvac_permit_484922_7.pdf

[pnwmom]

19. Here's a Montgomery County, MD link.

He also said he did work on his basement, and drainage work because water was going onto a neighbor's property, and fence work -- among other things.

https://permittingservices.montgomerycountymd.gov/dps/building/additionsandalterations.aspx

When is a Building Permit Required?
If you are building, installing, and/or altering any of the following you may need a building permit:

Addition
Basement-existing
Deck
Driveway (apron only)
Electrical Work
Exterior Work on Historic Property
Fence
Fire Repair
Garage
Hot tub
HVAC/Heating (replacing)
Interior Alteration
Retaining Wall
Replacing structural members of roof framing, including sheathing
Solar Panels
Shed
Signs
Sunroom
Swimming Pool
A wood burning stove/fireplace installation
Change the size of doors and windows or make new openings for same
Change a building's use
Structural alterations

[spooky3]

27. FWIW, that is very similar to Arlington Co's rules (nearby)

Replacing a gas furnace, for example, requires passing an inspection too. You are generally also not allowed to make certain changes such as putting a full kitchen in a basement, because it would allow a community zoned for single family residences to be overrun with two-family residences, for example. I'm not sure if he did this.

[john657]

33. Installing means either replacing the existing electric HVAC unit with a

propane/LP unit or altering the original placement of the propane/LP unit, IE: moving it, taking out a wall, load bearing beams, etc.

[Fred Sanders]

36. Propane and gas HVACs exist? Just curious...seems silly to use gas to run a heat recovery device!

[pnwmom]

38. For example:

https://www.cleanairnc.com/air-conditioning/gas-furnace-air-conditioning/

There are many different types of systems you can use to heat and cool your home – the trick is finding one that will be the most cost-efficient in both the summer and winter.
That’s why a gas furnace with air conditioning combo is an excellent choice for both cooling and heating your home. Also known as gas electric systems, these HVAC units use natural or propane gas to heat your home in the winter while relying on electricity to cool it during the summer.

How does a gas furnace with air conditioning component work?
It starts with the thermostat. Most modern homes have thermostats that control both the heating and cooling of the house. If a thermostat is set at a certain temperature – 72 degrees, for example – the HVAC unit will kick in as necessary to maintain that set temperature. If the temp rises above 72 degrees, the electricity-powered AC portion of the unit will activate until the optimal temperature is reached. If the temp in a room dips below 72 degrees, the gas-powered furnace will activate and stay on until the temperature rises back to 72 degrees.

[Fred Sanders]

41. Electric power for the heat recovery ventilator and air conditioner, and gas for the furnace.

HVAC is the entire system of 3 components. Only the furnace for heat uses gas.

If the whole shebang is being replaced or it is an integrated unit, permit needed in any place on the planet.

[pnwmom]

43. And they need to be inspected after installation. n/t

[Fred Sanders]

50. If it was an full HVAC unit, yep, need permit. No permit for such a potentially dangerous replace

without independent inspection after permit is probably a major building offence.

[john657]

49. Correct. N/T.

[john657]

39. Older homes here in WY still have them, they're being phased out.

As a contractor, I won't install a gas HVAC unit, just too dangerous IMO, the risk of Carbon Monoxide poisoning is just to great, also, a gas leak usually has bad results, as in BOOM. I always recommend an all electric appliance home.

[Fred Sanders]

44. The heat recovery ventilator is run on electricity as the first line of defence in cooling/heating.

It is maybe being confused with HVACS which is three components, HRV, air conditioner and furnace.

On edit...porch repair...no permit needed clearly...roof repair...no permit needed...drainage...maybe,..so we are all arguing over HVACS?

[john657]

52. It would appear so.

Seems kinda picky-uni compared to the other issues, like lying to congress while under oath.

You're right, I'm confusing HVAC with HRVC, the HRVC is what our older style homes here have, but that's changing, for the better IMO.

Our most prevalent units are the stand alone gas heaters and the separate A/C unit, usually up off the ground to avoid being buried in the snow we get here.

[Fred Sanders]

53. "Seems kinda picky-uni compared to the other issues, like lying to congress while under".

Can't believe I wasted this time here...President Obama saying not to get caught up in bread and circuses...I'm got caught up.

[john657]

56. LOL.

Seems I did also, this is time I'll never get back and at my age, I need every minute I can get.

[Kaleva]

66. Yes, gas HVACs exist.

HVAC doesn't mean "heat recovery device". It means "Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning". I was a licensed HVAC/R service and repair man which meant I could work on heating, ventilation, air conditioning and refrigeration systems up to a certain btuh.

"Heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC[1]) is the technology of indoor and vehicular environmental comfort. Its goal is to provide thermal comfort and acceptable indoor air quality. HVAC System Design is a subdiscipline of mechanical engineering, based on the principles of thermodynamics, fluid mechanics and heat transfer. "Refrigeration" is sometimes added to the field's abbreviation, as HVAC&R or HVACR or "ventilation" is dropped, as in HACR (as in the designation of HACR-rated circuit breakers). "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVAC

[PatSeg]

20. I've never lived anywhere

that required city or county permits for those kinds of repairs. Permits tend to be for building additions or major structural alterations to a building.

[Kaleva]

24. In Michigan, you need a permit to replace a gas or electic water heater

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/lara/lara_bcc_water_heater_hvac_permit_484922_7.pdf

[PatSeg]

54. Whoa, that is brutal

[Sancho]

47. I've done all these in Florida, and I was required to get a permit...

new roof
replace HVAC
repipe water
cut down a large tree
put up a new fence

If he was doing lots of improvements, then there should be permits...

chances are he lied.

[pnwmom]

63. Especially since FIRST he said most of the money was spent on season tickets.

The home repair claims came later.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

37. Where permits are required, they usually are required for hvac and water heaters.

Last edited Wed Sep 19, 2018, 12:25 AM - Edit history (1)

The link you provided specifically spells out hvac and plumbing -they say to see wssc, who I assume will want to sign off on water heaters.

I own a construction company. We do work for a lot of people in the legal field (I have several Public Defender friends). Yes you are correct work is done all the time without permits, but I’ll tell you this, every judge or State’s Attorney I’ve ever done work for has been a stickler for permits for this very reason. These people are usually under a microscope and they know it.

A buddy of mine was running for judge while we were doing his house remodel. I mentioned my insulator can massage the numbers to get him a larger rebate ( the insulator was on the city advisory board for the program). He said no fucking way.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

59. Daily KOS article

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/9/18/1796777/-This-Rolling-Stone-Reporter-is-no-Kavanaugh-Surrender-Monkey-He-s-Still-Digging-Check-It-Out