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Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:03 PM

This is why sexual harassment will never end.

If he's our guy (D or R), he must be innocent. Facts don't matter. The accuser must be crazy/a liar/part of a conspiracy.

Examples: Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, Brett Kavanaugh.

There are some exceptions. When the evidence is overwhelming - like with Harvey Weinstein - society will condemn the predator. Otherwise, it's "if he's our guy, he must be innocent".

And that's what the predator counts on.

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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply This is why sexual harassment will never end. (Original post)
Shemp Howard Sep 2018 OP
DURHAM D Sep 2018 #1
Shemp Howard Sep 2018 #7
Jarqui Sep 2018 #2
flotsam Sep 2018 #3
DURHAM D Sep 2018 #4
Shemp Howard Sep 2018 #19
flotsam Sep 2018 #20
Shemp Howard Sep 2018 #21
mythology Sep 2018 #22
rzemanfl Sep 2018 #5
Equinox Moon Sep 2018 #6
Shemp Howard Sep 2018 #9
Equinox Moon Sep 2018 #12
lordsummerisle Sep 2018 #8
Shemp Howard Sep 2018 #11
Funtatlaguy Sep 2018 #10
Shemp Howard Sep 2018 #14
Funtatlaguy Sep 2018 #16
thucythucy Sep 2018 #13
Shemp Howard Sep 2018 #15
thucythucy Sep 2018 #17
Shemp Howard Sep 2018 #18

Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:17 PM

1. Are you actually calling Bill Clinton a predator? nt

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:27 PM

7. No.

He's our guy. So he must be innocent.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:21 PM

2. I think the tide is changing some

Post-Weinstein, These Are the Powerful Men Facing Sexual Harassment Allegations
https://www.glamour.com/gallery/post-weinstein-these-are-the-powerful-men-facing-sexual-harassment-allegations

These names:
Les Moonves
Bill Cosby
Charlie Rose
Ryan Lizza
Kevin Spacey
Mark Halperin

are examples of men who have paid a price.
Brett Kavanaugh is about to join them

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:22 PM

3. So consensual sex

is predatory?

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Response to flotsam (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:25 PM

4. Thank you. nt

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Response to flotsam (Reply #3)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 11:19 PM

19. I'm not quite sure what you're referring to...

...but I'll take a guess. When a very powerful person has consensual sex with a lowly employee, maybe that's approaching predatory behavior.

When a relationship is roughly 50-50, neither person is under any great pressure. But when one person has significant control over the other person's professional life, that's different.

And that's why generals are not permitted to date soldiers in their command.

But suppose the two people really want to be together? Simple. One of them needs to resign. Then we are back to a healthy 50-50.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #19)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 11:24 PM

20. Monica Lewinski quote

“Sure, my boss took advantage of me, but I will always remain firm on this point: it was a consensual relationship. Any ‘abuse’ came in the aftermath, when I was made a scapegoat in order to protect his powerful position. . . . The Clinton administration, the special prosecutor’s minions, the political operatives on both sides of the aisle, and the media were able to brand me."

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Response to flotsam (Reply #20)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 11:38 PM

21. I feel bad for her.

Monica Lewinski never should have entered into a relationship with a married man. That's on her. But the punishment she received far exceeded her crime.

Anyway, her quote - while sincere - does not change my mind much. A general taking advantage of a willing private is still doing something very wrong.



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Response to flotsam (Reply #20)

Mon Sep 24, 2018, 12:03 AM

22. Um, "sure my boss took advantage of me" kind of indicates even then she had misgivings about

 

her consent, but also more recently (2018) she wrote this, specifically referencing the quote you cited:

Now, at 44, I’m beginning (just beginning) to consider the implications of the power differentials that were so vast between a president and a White House intern. I’m beginning to entertain the notion that in such a circumstance the idea of consent might well be rendered moot. (Although power imbalances—and the ability to abuse them—do exist even when the sex has been consensual.)

But it’s also complicated. Very, very complicated. The dictionary definition of “consent”? “To give permission for something to happen.” And yet what did the “something” mean in this instance, given the power dynamics, his position, and my age? Was the “something” just about crossing a line of sexual (and later emotional) intimacy? (An intimacy I wanted—with a 22-year-old’s limited understanding of the consequences.) He was my boss. He was the most powerful man on the planet. He was 27 years my senior, with enough life experience to know better. He was, at the time, at the pinnacle of his career, while I was in my first job out of college. (Note to the trolls, both Democratic and Republican: none of the above excuses me for my responsibility for what happened. I meet Regret every day.)


https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/02/monica-lewinsky-in-the-age-of-metoo

There are very good reasons most companies ban sexual relations between people in direct line of authority. It's very complicated and dangerous because consent is tricky when one partner holds all the power. Sure there may not be a direct statement of "sleep with me or you're fired", but the subtext is there. It's why hospitals are requiring doctors to take communication training to help a patient actually be able to give informed consent.

It's why we don't allow inmates, even death row inmates, to donate organs because consent is so tricky and it can have the potential for improper behavior.

Is Bill Clinton a predator? I would say yes, just as I would say about any boss who has sex with their employee. Is Bill Clinton a criminal for that? No and obviously so.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:26 PM

5. Bookmarking. n/t

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:27 PM

6. I understand your point, but I disagree

The #metoo movement is powerful! It is rocking and shacking this country from the top down. It is working!

Times Up!

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Response to Equinox Moon (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:32 PM

9. I somewhat agree with your disagreement. (!)

The #metoo movement has changed the landscape to a great extent. But -unfortunately - when it comes to politically powerful predators, it's still our guy/not our guy.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #9)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:39 PM

12. I understand, but that is changing too.

We through out a couple of sexual predators in our state legislature, one red and one blue. The both resisted, but more women came forward and they both stepped down.

I think we are moving into an era that we believe the victims. FINALLY!!!!

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:28 PM

8. Interesting profile

Shemp Howard and a pic of Bernie Sanders?

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Response to lordsummerisle (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:33 PM

11. Two of my favorite people! (nt)

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:32 PM

10. Al Franken......ummm....no, wait, we Dems threw him overboard with no investigation.

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Response to Funtatlaguy (Reply #10)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:42 PM

14. You're right about Al Franken.

I thought about including Franken somewhere in my original post.

Franken was abandoned by his fellow Democrats. But from what I could tell, Franken resigned because he himself had a moral compass. He thought that his resigning was what was best for the Senate, and for his party.

It was a very selfless move on Al's part. And for what it's worth, I think he should have stayed and fought the charges. I know that goes against my original post. Al's case is a rare one.



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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #14)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:47 PM

16. He only resigned after Gillibrand led the charge and Schumer agreed with her.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:41 PM

13. I must have missed that groundswell of Democratic support to Anthony Weiner. nt.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #13)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:44 PM

15. Weiner falls into the same category as Weinstein.

The evidence was overwhelming.

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Response to Shemp Howard (Reply #15)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:50 PM

17. The evidence was pretty overwhelming against Trump.

Shit, he flat out admitted he assaulted women--bragged about it on tape!

And he is still supported by the core of the KGOP.

Please, this equivalence argument is getting old.

As of today, when Democrats do wrong or are at all credibly alleged to have done wrong, they are asked, by members of their own party, to resign. Al Franken come immediately to mind.

The KGOP offers men like Trump, Roy Moore, Ted Nugent, and the current nominee as role models and pillars of (their) society.

Huge difference.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #17)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:59 PM

18. Absolutely!

And I forgot about Roy Moore and Ted Nugent. They are two more examples of "if he's our guy, he must be innocent".

But I think my original argument still holds. When it comes to politics, most people judge sexual harassment claims not on the facts, but on whose side the harasser is on.

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