General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMSNBC right now: Kavanaugh texted friends...
to refute Ramirez claims!
blm
(113,061 posts)Bye Brett
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,328 posts)I hope so. But how?
sheshe2
(83,770 posts)Fullduplexxx
(7,863 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Kavanaugh was to speak before a federal panel under oath. I think the statue said that he could not contact witnesses or potential witnesses.
blm
(113,061 posts)And he cannot claim he isnt familiar with the law now, can he?
Piss poor lawyer judge too.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)tandem5
(2,072 posts)Autumn
(45,084 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,201 posts)OliverQ
(3,363 posts)McConnell already said they're voting this week because this is all character assassination.
blm
(113,061 posts).
diva77
(7,643 posts)dchill
(38,493 posts)YessirAtsaFact
(2,064 posts)It sure looks like a cover-up of criminal activity.
Grasswire2
(13,570 posts)HOWEVER, that could change.
diva77
(7,643 posts)Grasswire2
(13,570 posts)diva77
(7,643 posts)diva77
(7,643 posts)Mr.Bill
(24,292 posts)Samspadesnark
(75 posts)You do not tell anyone what to tell the FBI. Ever. That is, if you want to be believed by the FBI when it comes your turn to be questioned by them. And to do it in text, leaving a permanent record? Now, to see whether he is lying about trying to influence a witness, the FBI can seize his cell phone and God only knows what they would find there. One thing leads to another.
While it's true that witness tampering must involve intimidation or physical force, at least one witness in this situation (Dr. Ford) has already received death threats. Thus, any pressure exerted by Kavanaugh might be taken more seriously. Moreover, the question at this point is not whether Kavanaugh has committed the crime of witness tampering; it is whether the FBI will believe everything/anything he says. If I were Kavanaugh, I'd want the FBI to believe me 100 percent . . . . because if Kavanaugh is found NOT credible by the FBI, while simultaneously telling other people what to say to the FBI, he may set himself up for obstruction of justice charges.
Legal Definition of obstruction of justice:
The crime or act of willfully interfering with the process of justice and law especially by influencing, threatening, harming, or impeding a witness, potential witness, juror, or judicial or legal officer or by furnishing false information in or otherwise impeding an investigation or legal process
the defendant's obstruction of justice led to a more severe sentence
Kavanaugh is literally giving the FBI the middle finger at this point, the dumbest thing he could do. If the FBI doesn't believe that he is truthful, they could opine that other things in his sworn application papers are not true and then open this investigation up to include a lot more than just the sexual harassment allegations made by women against him. The worst sword on which he could fall would be lies about his finances. If that happened, he's really toast.
uponit7771
(90,339 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Kaleva
(36,301 posts)"1729. Protection Of Government Processes -- Tampering With Victims, Witnesses, Or Informants -- 18 U.S.C. 1512
Section 1512 of Title 18 constitutes a broad prohibition against tampering with a witness, victim or informant. It proscribes conduct intended to illegitimately affect the presentation of evidence in Federal proceedings or the communication of information to Federal law enforcement officers. It applies to proceedings before Congress, executive departments, and administrative agencies, and to civil and criminal judicial proceedings, including grand jury proceedings. See 18 U.S.C. § 1515(a)(1). In addition, the section provides extraterritorial Federal jurisdiction over the offenses created therein. See 18 U.S.C. § 1512(g); 128 Cong. Rec. H8469 (daily ed. Oct. 1, 1980); H. R. Rep. No. 1369, 96th Cong., 2d Sess. 20-22 (1980)."
https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1729-protection-government-processes-tampering-victims-witnesses-or
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11219934
hatrack
(59,587 posts)Grasswire2
(13,570 posts)Last edited Mon Oct 1, 2018, 08:45 PM - Edit history (1)
HOW DARE YOU?!
HOW DARE YOU DO THIS TO BRETT KAVANAUGH?
HOW DARE YOU DENY HIM THIS SEAT?!
Listen, NO, YOU listen!
Do you know who Brett Kavanaugh is? Brett Kavanaugh went to Georgetown Prep!
BRETT KAVANAUGH IS AN OPTIMIST WHO LOOKS ON THE SUNSHINE SIDE OF THE MOUNTAIN!
BRETT KAVANAUGH IS NOT YELLING!
YOURE YELLING!
If Brett does not secure a lifetime appointment on the Supreme Court, this country will be IN SHAMBLES! THIS IS HIS BIRTHRIGHT! Do you know how embarrassing it is for a Georgetown Prep graduate to NOT be on the Supreme Court? They are literally 12 PERCENT of the court! THIS IS PROBABLY THE WORST INDIGNITY YOU CAN INFLICT ON A HUMAN BEING!
ALL BRETT IS ASKING FOR IS DUE PROCESS! DUE PROCESS BEFORE HE IS DEPRIVED OF HIS GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO A SEAT ON THE HIGHEST COURT IN THE LAND, WHERE HE WILL DETERMINE THE FATES OF MILLIONS!
[link:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/opinions/wp/2018/09/27/how-dare-you-do-this-to-brett-kavanaugh/?utm_term=.55c030780904|
renate
(13,776 posts)JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I'm watching the Rockies lose.
Brother Buzz
(36,434 posts)That is, until my Giants got swept by the Dodgers over the weekend and put the Bums right back in the game.
Single tiebreaker games are a crapshot, why not a three game series?
LandOfHopeAndDreams
(872 posts)Was hoping my Cubs would be playing the Rockies tomorrow.
Back to Kavanope...this cant be good for him, can it?
SaintLouisBlues
(1,244 posts)aggiesal
(8,914 posts)Go Cubs Go!
MontanaMama
(23,314 posts)YessirAtsaFact
(2,064 posts)He may be smart, but he's not very wise.
malaise
(268,998 posts)Why boasteth thyself oh evil man
Playing smart and not being clever
Small Axe
https://m.
certainot
(9,090 posts)wcmagumba
(2,886 posts)in these "bastard people"...Corky St. Clair
The Genealogist
(4,723 posts)What a slimeball he is!
He's fucked. Well he fucked himself! How perfect.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)malaise
(268,998 posts)MontanaMama
(23,314 posts)fucking himself while inebriated is in his wheelhouse of expertise, eh?
malaise
(268,998 posts)lOL.
donkeypoofed
(2,187 posts)Last edited Mon Oct 1, 2018, 06:41 PM - Edit history (1)
That's very incriminating. Innocent people don't do that.dchill
(38,493 posts)uponit7771
(90,339 posts)pazzyanne
(6,556 posts)GO TO JAIL
Do not pass go.
Do not collect $200.
KTinaY2008
(57 posts)he said he had not reached out to any of the witnesses.
What a liar.
Grasswire2
(13,570 posts)dchill
(38,493 posts)The article from NBC News points out that he reached out to them as early as July:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/mutual-friend-ramirez-kavanaugh-anxious-come-forward-evidence-n915566?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma
Autumn
(45,084 posts)Samspadesnark
(75 posts)Clearly he lied under oath about this. He should be in a flop sweat now, unless he's just too drunk/high to notice.
Grasswire2
(13,570 posts)..... .....
BigmanPigman
(51,593 posts)wanted the friend to go on the record to defend him. Is this witness tampering?
dchill
(38,493 posts)Grasswire2
(13,570 posts)Just a hearing for confirmation.
BigmanPigman
(51,593 posts)dchill
(38,493 posts)onenote
(42,703 posts)Silver Gaia
(4,544 posts)onenote
(42,703 posts)Even it is an "official proceeding" (and I think it is), texting someone about their testimony in and of itself doesn't constitute witness tampering under the statute.
Silver Gaia
(4,544 posts)So, it does not fit under this section?
(1) influence, delay, or prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding;
(2) cause or induce any person to
(A) withhold testimony, or withhold a record, document, or other object, from an official proceeding;
(B) alter, destroy, mutilate, or conceal an object with intent to impair the objects integrity or availability for use in an official proceeding;
(C) evade legal process summoning that person to appear as a witness, or to produce a record, document, or other object, in an official proceeding; or...[etc.]
Text messages aren't mentioned, but I wouldn't expect them to be. Would this not be "corruptly persuading" someone?
onenote
(42,703 posts)Indeed, a 7-2 majority (with Alito and Thomas dissenting) concluded that an over broad reading of "corruptly' would put too much power in prosecutors' hands. Even the dissent acknowledged that showing that someone acted corruptly requires proof that the defendant both knew he was obtaining an unlawful" benefit and that the defendant's objective or purpose was to obtain that "unlawful" benefit. The problem here is that, at least as described, the texts weren't trying to do any of the unlawful acts described in the statute.
Silver Gaia
(4,544 posts)That helps. I haven't seen any of the texts in question, so don't have an opinion on that. Basically, I think he absolutely was tampering with witnesses, but in a sneaky way that he knew would be difficult to prove, especially in the brief time he knew would be alotted to investigating him.
Thanks for your patience with my questions.
sarah FAILIN
(2,857 posts)You tell them to say what backs you up instead of what happened? Asking them to lie..
C_U_L8R
(45,002 posts)Bye K.
avebury
(10,952 posts)because siphe felt they need to investigate. Ramirez was obviously trying to avoid him on another occasion and appeared fearful of him. It sure sounds like he is trying to obstruct the investigation.
He wanted to make a picture disappear that had both of them on opposite sides of the picture.
dchill
(38,493 posts)this FBI investigation out of its chains.
triron
(22,003 posts)mainstreetonce
(4,178 posts)Showed a photo with two people circled.
Does anyone know who they were?
avebury
(10,952 posts)Kavanaugh wanted to make that picture disappear.
mainstreetonce
(4,178 posts)Wow!
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)He wanted to use the pic you sent me show they were copacetic...
dchill
(38,493 posts)mcar
(42,331 posts)How did this guy graduate from law school?
dchill
(38,493 posts)Nevilledog
(51,104 posts)dchill
(38,493 posts)rzemanfl
(29,557 posts)Nevilledog
(51,104 posts)magicarpet
(14,150 posts)Right zip code
Right prep school
Right connections
Mommy a DA then a judge
Member of the right golf course
Spoiled rotten only child
Athletic prowess - backed up by coaches
JI7
(89,249 posts)just like how kushner brothers went to harvard after huge donation from parents.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)OliverQ
(3,363 posts)This man needs to be in jail and disbarred. Not put on the Supreme Court.
uponit7771
(90,339 posts)tandem5
(2,072 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)bearsfootball516
(6,377 posts)Sure it's super shady, but it doesn't sound like it's actually illegal because it's not a trial.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)This gets curiouser and curiouser
BumRushDaShow
(128,979 posts)which had me doing this -
I.e., the hearings are considered "proceedings".
Section 1512 of Title 18 constitutes a broad prohibition against tampering with a witness, victim or informant. It proscribes conduct intended to illegitimately affect the presentation of evidence in Federal proceedings or the communication of information to Federal law enforcement officers. It applies to proceedings before Congress, executive departments, and administrative agencies, and to civil and criminal judicial proceedings, including grand jury proceedings. See 18 U.S.C. § 1515(a)(1). In addition, the section provides extraterritorial Federal jurisdiction over the offenses created therein. See 18 U.S.C. § 1512(g); 128 Cong. Rec. H8469 (daily ed. Oct. 1, 1980); H. R. Rep. No. 1369, 96th Cong., 2d Sess. 20-22 (1980).
https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1729-protection-government-processes-tampering-victims-witnesses-or
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1512
FarPoint
(12,368 posts)BRAVO....and Thank YOU!....
BumRushDaShow
(128,979 posts)I believe the addition of "Congress" and other entities outside of the judicial system happened via legislation passed in the early '80s.
wiggs
(7,813 posts)avoid catastrophe.
honest.abe
(8,678 posts)This has to be the end of him.
dchill
(38,493 posts)But my name is not McConnell.
honest.abe
(8,678 posts)But we dont need McConnell.. just a couple of Repubs to say they won't vote for this lying drunkard jerk.
dchill
(38,493 posts)LAS14
(13,783 posts).... these texts? I'm not doubting they exist, but I'm just curious as to how stuff like this gets leaked. Did some recipient call up a news organization? Are there other ways to discover people's texts?
tia
las
BumRushDaShow
(128,979 posts)Apparently one of his friends (Kerry Bercham) had copies of some of the texts and included them in a "memo" that she is trying to get to the FBI.
Berchems memo outlining her correspondence with Yarasavage shows theres a circle of Kavanaugh friends who may have pertinent information and evidence relevant to the inquiry who may not be interviewed. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has already set in motion a vote on Kavanaughs nomination on the Senate floor for later this week.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/mutual-friend-ramirez-kavanaugh-anxious-come-forward-evidence-n915566
LAS14
(13,783 posts)Ilsa
(61,695 posts)Kick his ass into private sector.
Retrograde
(10,136 posts)as in incompetent: contacting potential witnesses before accusations come to light to make sure they're singing the right song? Trying to intimidate them after accusations surface? Has he ever practiced, or did he just go from political operative to appointment to a federal court by a fellow Yalie without doing any legal work in between?