Should we just bite the bullet and wait until 2020 to vote Trump out of office?

[kentuck]

Never mind that he should not have been there anyway. But the Electoral College finally bit us in the ass again.

We should forget about impeachment. Republicans would never vote to throw him out of office.
Unless, of course, he became too much of a burden and he threatened their position personally.

I think it is a legitimate question to ask: Can we make it to 2020?

We are on a slippery slope and we have been lucky up to this point. What happens if there is a real crisis that needs leadership from the White House? Does anyone trust Donald Trump to lead America thru a crisis? If so, they are nuts.

Batten the hatches...

[Demsrule86]

1. We don't have the votes in the Senate so there is no choice...impeachment

without a Senate conviction is a waste of time, money and likely to help Trump with reelection.

[kentuck]

4. Could you imagine any circumstances...?

...where Trump would be such a negative that even Republicans would desert him?

[osmium]

19. Of Course

When the economy tanks - in capitalist countries this is inevitable, all this rubbish about it being "different this time" was said prior to 2000-2001 and 2008-2009; and look at what happened - almost no GOPer that's up for re-election(and that's every one of them given the lingering aftertaste recession leaves) is going to sacrifice his/herself for President Yeti Pubes(PYP).

They may be intellectually bereft, callous, and malignantly short-sighted, but like vermin everywhere their sense of self-preservation reigns supreme.
____________________________

*ahem* That seems a bit harsh for an early Saturday morn, but I'll leave it as it as it fell out of my noggin.

On a tangentially related note: It would be wonderful if the GOPers left PYP due to his positively insane and lethal stance on climate change specifically, and environmental issues generally..but this craven group isn't bound to reality. The GOP was not always this way. From Nixon to G.H.W. Bush the GOP accepted the data that spaceship earth is seriously imperiled. It is only very lately, as the data has become irrefutable, that they have left their collective senses. The lives of future generations are not something the GOP is willing to "conserve."

[kentuck]

20. If the economy turned south, and Trump's polls dropped into the 20's...

...and the Republican incumbents polls dropped dramatically also, then I could see some minds being changed.

Anyday now, I think the markets might realize that we are going into higher inflationary times and the markets might show their displeasure?

[osmium]

33. I See Headwinds..

Anyday now, I think the markets might realize that we are going into higher inflationary times and the markets might show their displeasure?

..Hindering further meaningful upward movement in the markets. I don't see any real catalysts to take equities markets higher. Sure, some companies always outperform, but when the equities markets really correct, there is really no safe place. Essentially, great corporate profits are baked into equities. The time to be wary is when most everyone is complacent. This complacency(the opposite of a peak in the VIX - see below) hit a post-recession peak on Sept. 29, 2017.

I know all about "climbing the wall of worry," and that's a great post-correction strategy, but first one needs a correction in order to play such a hand. The current bull market is getting tired. As you noted, inflation hasn't yet been factored into equities prices.

This bull market has been remarkably resilient, but inflation - and worse, 'stagflation' - will help blow the froth right off equities prices. It is only a matter of time. A true recession sinks all boats. See https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-stagflation-3305964 for more on stagflation and how current protectionist policy may play a part.

I watch the VIX(CBOE S&P 500 Volatility Index) only peripherally. By the time the VIX makes a big move up - meaning that the markets are really volatile - lots of the damage has been done.

I should add that I don't sell during panic times, unless my long-term buys are in danger of going red. I look at corrections as opportunities to buy stuff at below market value.

Well, that's far too much about my approach to the equities markets. *ahem*
______________________________________

Yes. The RePubs need some sort of shock to leave Spanky; a sharp economic shock seems the only thing that will do it. . They have tasted the Kool-Aid and are now drunk with it. It will take some sort of inexcusable act to get them away from their sugar rush. The only inexcusable acts for the GOP are those with economic impact. They sold their souls long ago. Money and power are the gods they worship. Take away one of their gods, and the whole structure topples(cheesy 'legs' metaphor ).

[at140]

38. The bull market was propped up by the FED

with record breaking artificially low/zero rates. Just compare the real and actual inflation for last 10 years. Your money in bank has earned you may be 5% total in 10 years if you were lucky. While house prices have doubled, grocery prices and healthcare costs have increased way beyond 5%. The seniors who depend on interest incomes have been robbed and pillaged.

As inflation picks up, and if FED begins to unwind their $4 Trillion balance sheet and increase interest rates towards normal level based on inflation, the stock market bubble will deflate.

But 50% of people do not own any stocks. The richest 10% own 90% of all stocks. I would not count on stock market falling to demolish Trump's poll numbers. What will cause his poll numbers to go south? The job numbers & unemployment! Because 90% of people are affected by jobs situation.

[Demsrule86]

39. I would have thought so but this group of Republicans is a rough bunch...no morals and

no love of country.

[at140]

2. First job...vote in Nov 2018

If senate remains republican, I doubt it will remove him even if successfully impeached in House. If there are more useful things to do with our energy, that should be more productive.

So wait and see how November election goes. There is a chance senate could turn blue. That changes the paradigm.

[marble falls]

5. You got that right. the 2018 election is the only goal we need to concentrate on.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. We should at least give it a shot.

[aikoaiko]

6. Impeachment should never be "off the table" so to speak

But we would need more evidence to impeach and convict of wrong doing. If the evidence come then impeach. If not we vote him out. But that won’t be easy either.

[kentuck]

9. People here are so common-sensical...

[oberliner]

7. As opposed to what?

[Pope George Ringo II]

31. Wait for him to die, I guess?

If we don't have 67 Senators willing to impeach, it's either vote him out or wait for him to die.

Crowdfunding a $100,000 gift certificate to KFC would be more likely to remove him from office than impeachment proceedings.

[Atticus]

8. This OP is an example of what I consider one of the best reasons to participate at DU.

A thoughtful poster raises a very serious question, sketches out a little bit of the arguments pro and con, and invites discussion. Thank you.

I think WE can make it to 2020, but I am not sure the democracy we thought was our guaranteed birthright can. We have to fight, fight, fight for justice, decency and democracy even if we are pretty sure we will lose most of those battles for a while.

Women's suffrage; civil rights for people of color; LGBQT rights, collective bargaining rights: none of these were easily or quickly accomplished. Some still require ongoing effort. The history of each--which in some cases spans centuries--features more failuresthan successes.

This is not a zero sum game. Sometimes whether you win is less important than whether you showed up for the fight.

I'm for throwing everything at Trump from all directions for as long as it takes to expel him. And, then let's prosecute his blubbery ass and exile him to Marion,Illinois.

[kentuck]

10. Republicans would argue that this isn't a "disaster"...

You make a good point: "Sometimes whether you win is less important than whether you showed up for the fight."

I agree. Sometimes I think the fight may be more important than a win or loss? Sometimes all you can do is stand up for your principles.

[WePurrsevere]

11. To impeach we'd need the Senate votes too...

If I remember correctly that still requires more than a simple majority vote and while we might be able to win enough seats to become the majority in both houses it would take a bloody miracle to get the amount needed for a successful impeachment.

The only way we could get that kind of miracle is if Trump is tried and convicted of a crime so big that Republicans would desperately want him gone. If he's gone... it's Pence unless they go together or very close together somehow and Trump can't get new VP approved fast enough (like Nixon, Agnew, Ford). If that miracle happens and if we win the HOR in November, as we seem to have a good chance of doing ATM, 'then' and only then might we be looking at a President Pelosi.

I'd dearly love to see Trump, hell this whole fascist neo-GOP, gone but realistically it's not going to happen magically overnight without an act of god like the scene in the movie Ghost were the dark shadows come and drag the bad guys away.

Show me a way we can 'realistically' do it, that means without harming our own party by violating the constitution/law or being unethical, and I'm all in. Until then... no.

What we DO need to do is FIGHT and VOTE... keep hitting him and the GOP with facts and calling them in bullshit. Make it as difficult as we can for the Trumpublicans.

[kentuck]

14. It would have to be "bi-partisan"...

I would agree.

Some folks believe "bi-partisanship" to be an impossibility.

[WePurrsevere]

16. Yes, exactly. I don't think it's 'impossible', just improbable...

"The possible we can do right now, the impossible just takes a little longer".

[OrlandoDem2]

12. Wait for Mueller to report his findings then conduct any investigation

In a Democratic-controlled House if needed.

[brooklynite]

13. Trump won by flipping PA, OH, MI, and WI

Our Governor and Senate candidates are ahead in all four.

[kentuck]

15. Thanks for the info!

I am skeptical of polls but this one makes one feel better.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. We should investigate him and dirty him up for 2020.

We will never move his rabid base. However we will move enough persuadables to win the Electoral College. If the investigations reveals evidence of "high crimes and misdemeanors" a super majority of Americans will demand he be removed from office.

[Autumn]

18. There's no other option. He will never be impeached. nt

[fescuerescue]

21. Well November 2020 will come no matter what we do.

So yes. In Nov 2020, vote.
.

[beachbum bob]

22. we make a trump and his admin face every investigation by House Sub-committees, they basis of any

impeachment at this point is what is the provable level of Russian/Trump/GOP collusion...if theres is, the nwe need to a have the articles of impeachment ready to go and let GOP defend traitors, we can make this last a year for sure.

Not even talking about Trump family criminality and thats another ballgame to play

[kentuck]

23. "...and let GOP defend traitors... ?

Could it reach a point where it would be politically hazardous to defend against impeaching Donald Trump?

It depends on how it is marketed, I suppose?

[beachbum bob]

27. its all about the marketing. All we do is to keep 60% of america wanting to rid our country

of the GOP/Trump blight and we can turn our country around. make GOP defend traitors

[Gothmog]

24. Electing a Democratic House and hopefully a Democratic Senate is enough for now

We need to provide some check on trump. trump does not like it when people do not automatically do what he wants. The gop controlled House and Senate have been protecting trump.

I want Democrats to be in a position to check trump.

trump's tax returns and the his financial ties to foreign countries need to be looked at and I doubt that trump will stand up to the scrutiny.

[kentuck]

25. " The gop controlled House and Senate have been protecting trump."

Will they ever be held accountable. They are complicit in this conspiracy.

[Gothmog]

30. Only if we turn out to vote

We need to vote these idiots out

[sarisataka]

26. Bite the bullet implies

There has been another realistic option. Voting in 2020 has always been the primary and only option available.

Until something happens that gets at least a few Republicans talking about impeachment, all the discussion about impeaching him has simply been mental masturbation.

Can we make it to 2020? Is there any other option that does not involve a wild fantasy scenario? We wasted far too much time leading up to 2018. The day after the election we need to start preparing for 2020.

[beachbum bob]

28. 100% correct, learn from GOP who started to take hillary down in 2014....

we can do the same in 2018. 2020 and beyond. No more playing nice or we end up losing again

[NewJeffCT]

29. You need to build support for impeachment

Multiple investigations and hearings will expose the unprecedented corruption and criminality in the White House. Each one will be another straw added to the camel's back.

And, if you get idiots like Kushner, Don Jr, Eric, ivanka and others on the stand for televised hearings, they'll all start stabbing each other in the back and/or make major gaffes that will further build support for impeachment

Eventually, Trump will start losing the sane Republicans that are left and maybe even a few die-hards will wake up (not many, but even 1, 2 or 3% of them is huge on the national level)

[Codeine]

32. We've never had a choice.

2020 has always been our only opportunity to rid ourselves of the rancid piece of filth soiling the Oval Office.

Impeachment, indictment, resignation — these are pipe dreams that ignore basic political realities. Math is math.

[Awsi Dooger]

42. Exactly...impeachment or removal or resignation has always been a Happy Adjuster pipe dream

From people who ignore the big picture and spend far too much time overreacting to today's news, and then tomorrow's news...

[ooky]

34. Generally speaking, yes, we should wait. But

if Mueller's investigation reveals crimes, I believe we would have no choice but to begin impeachment proceedings. Then, if/when the Senate refuses to do its job then at least we would have done ours.

[Garrett78]

35. Impeachment without removal carries risk. But so does not impeaching.

When it's abundantly clear that Trump should be impeached, what precedent do we risk establishing by not impeaching him? What happens the next time we get a POTUS who breaks law after law after law?

Trump has already violated court orders, the emoluments clause, federal records law, etc. Obama would have been impeached for far less.

[CrispyQ]

36. We gain control of at least one chamber this November or come 2020,

we won't recognize our government he will have done so much damage. He's not even half way through his term & the harm he's caused is staggering.

[Hortensis]

37. There's no question of "biting the bullet." We the People have an absolute duty

to stop this person from continuing his illegal, immoral and hurtful actions and his subversion of of our democracy as president if we can.

This is incredibly worse than the situation under which Repubs and Dems agreed to allow Reagan to stay in office with a retired senator trusted for his integrity and competence taking over as his new chief of staff.

Because of that, impeachment -- and removal -- will happen if it becomes politically feasible through acceptance as appropriate by not just majorities in congress but among the electorate.

[nuxvomica]

40. If we take both houses, he could be played like a fiddle

The leadership should figure out how to manipulate him into doing the people's business in spite of himself. A Democratic victory would make him very worried and very vulnerable. I can almost hear him channeling Prufrock:

And I have known the eyes already, known them all—
The eyes that fix you in a formulated phrase,
And when I am formulated, sprawling on a pin,
When I am pinned and wriggling on the wall,
Then how should I begin
To spit out all the butt-ends of my days and ways?

[VOX]

41. STEP 1: Slow the runaway train-- VOTE next month!

Step 2: Take (at least) the House, that won’t stop executive action, but it will tie up voting shit straight through. Not ideal, but it’s at least a check in the top-to-bottom right-wing “government” we’re currently saddled with. Do whatever’s possible to divert, slow, re-route, delay, speak up, agitate, on and on, ceaselessly.

Step 3: 2019– Come up with a broad-appeal, inclusive, dynamic ticket for 2020. Knowing Democrats and progressives, this will be more difficult than it should be, given the existential threat to the WORLD.
We’ll see what Robert Mueller has to say, but it’s folly to hang all hopes on a miracle. (Like waiting on the edge of one’s seat for some REPUBLICANS to save SCOTUS, it just leaves Democrats/progressives impotently hand-wringing on the sidelines.) If Mueller does stick it to 45, well, that’d be an absolute gift. But again, no breath-holding.

Step 4: SUPPORT a Democratic administration, even if it departs somewhat from your ideals. We’ve seen what happens when Republicans rally around the candy-dispensing monster they’ve created— he’s almost untouchable, for now. He’s the freest person in the world, for now.

In contrast, Democrats actually backed away from Obama in 2014, allowing Republicans to fill the void, and we’re still paying for that abandonment.) STICK TOGETHER! DISCIPLINE!

[Baltimike]

43. Can we just get through the midterms before discussing 2020? We need to be united. nt

[lanlady]

44. I'd rather see him voted out

Otherwise a President Pence will be in position to run in 2020 with the support of Evangelicals and assorted other Trumpers looking to avenge their cult hero.

Let him run and lose bigly.