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Sun Oct 28, 2018, 01:09 PM

Outrage

“Contrary to common belief, the presumption of innocence applies only inside a courtroom. It has no applicability elsewhere.”
Vincent Bugliosi; Outrage; Island Books; 1996; pages 21-22.



Friday, there was widespread discussion of Cesar Sayoc's being arrested for the MAGAbombings. These discussions began around the time that federal investigators indicated that they believed Sayoc was guilty of mailing the bombs. Some took a more Lou Dobbs approach, and interpreted Sayoc's arrest as certain evidence that the Deep State was out to stop Trump from deciding the mid-term elections.

Sayoc drove and inhabited a van. Even before the bombs were mailed, the van concerned some people. They recognized that it represented the bad potential lurking in the bowels of the Trump movement. Since yesterday, many view it as the defining essence of the alt-right. Still others see it as proof that the Deep State's involvement. These group sees the “caravan” as posing the existential threat to the US, rather than what Sayoc's van represents.

Thus, yesterday we witnessed the terrible attack on human beings in Pittsburgh. A 22-year veteran of the FBI said it is “the most horrific crime scene” he has ever seen. Robert Bowers reportedly believed the people in the synagogue were “the enemy,” who supported treating refugees humanly. This brutally ugly mass-murder, along with the mail bombs, perfectly defines the nature of the struggle within the United States.

Both of these situations are examples of social problems, which involve – among other things – our legal system. Hence, rational people can express their opinion that Sayoc and Bowers are guilty of extremely serious crimes. We can be sure that irrational people – with minds twisted by hatred – are talking about these two as “patriots.” And yet, I've seen a few people state that commenting on their guilt somehow violates the concept of “innocent until proven guilty.”

One person went so far as to say that “the facts” will come out in Sayoc's trial, which will prove if he is “guilty or innocent.” Such a statement disqualifies the person from being taken seriously, since – as we all should know – a criminal trial is restricted to verdicts of “guilty” or “not guilty.” The level of ignorance that holds otherwise is, sad to say, the same as found in those who think Alex Hones is being denied his constitutional rights if a newspaper or other media source refuses to carry his bullshit.

Sayoc and Bowers are entitled to fair trials. The jurors are instructed to decide if a defendant has been proven to be guilty by the prosecution. According to the bar's Rules of Professional Conduct (3.6), neither the prosecutor or defense lawyers should comment outside of the courtroom about the defendant's guilt or innocence. Likewise, as many of us remember from Nixon's infamous quote on Manson, public officials from other branches of government should not comment on an on-going case.

The general public is free to discuss issues of crime. The media is free to report on crime. If a trial judge suspects that “local” public discussion and media reports could prevent a defendant from getting a fair trial, one remedy is a change of venue. Another is to sequester the jury. Our legal system is, of course, imperfect: innocent people are sometimes convicted, and guilty people are sometimes found to be “not guilty.” Yet, these are reasons that we should have discussions about the legal system in general, and some cases in particular.

Yesterday was a hard day for my family. It marked four years since a man shot my cousin and his son in a “road rage” incident. Many forum members here would contact the court asking that the accused be denied bail. In fact, the court received more correspondence from DU members, than it had ever received from the public on any case. The defendant was eventually found guilty by the court. That verdict merely confirmed my opinion that the guy was a murderer.

For the sake of open discussion, I will note that one of the people that Sayoc had focused his hatred upon before his bombing campaign was someone I've been friends with for 30+ years. My friend's identity isn't important; the fact that Sayoc was threatening many, many people, and then attempted to carry out those threats, is important. It deserves discussion. The fact that Bowers acted upon his sick hatred for Jewish people demands serious discussion.

This is a strange essay. We are in strange times. I don't pretend to know all the answers, much less The Answer. But one thing I do know is that the sickness that inspired Sayoc and Bowers is widespread. It has infected a significant group of people known as alt-right nationalist. And they have infected the larger society. It is something that we need to continue to discuss openly.

Peace,
H2O Man

43 replies, 5845 views

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Arrow 43 replies Author Time Post
Reply Outrage (Original post)
H2O Man Oct 2018 OP
pwb Oct 2018 #1
H2O Man Oct 2018 #13
vlyons Oct 2018 #2
grantcart Oct 2018 #7
Harker Oct 2018 #14
vlyons Oct 2018 #17
H2O Man Oct 2018 #21
triron Oct 2018 #30
vlyons Oct 2018 #35
coeur_de_lion Oct 2018 #3
LiberalLovinLug Oct 2018 #18
H2O Man Oct 2018 #22
coeur_de_lion Oct 2018 #28
CaliforniaPeggy Oct 2018 #4
OMGWTF Oct 2018 #9
BigmanPigman Oct 2018 #15
Haggis for Breakfast Oct 2018 #27
H2O Man Oct 2018 #23
erronis Oct 2018 #5
H2O Man Oct 2018 #24
Boomerproud Oct 2018 #6
H2O Man Oct 2018 #25
grantcart Oct 2018 #8
Haggis for Breakfast Oct 2018 #29
grantcart Oct 2018 #32
Haggis for Breakfast Oct 2018 #33
H2O Man Oct 2018 #36
geardaddy Oct 2018 #40
Haggis for Breakfast Oct 2018 #42
malaise Oct 2018 #10
H2O Man Oct 2018 #37
berni_mccoy Oct 2018 #11
H2O Man Oct 2018 #38
cp Oct 2018 #12
BlancheSplanchnik Oct 2018 #20
LittleGirl Oct 2018 #16
BlancheSplanchnik Oct 2018 #19
Me. Oct 2018 #26
lunasun Oct 2018 #31
voteearlyvoteoften Oct 2018 #34
geardaddy Oct 2018 #39
lunatica Oct 2018 #41
spanone Oct 2018 #43

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 01:19 PM

1. Good one! Also this all comes right out of Putins playbook. Divide the country.

Some of these antagonists are surely his people.

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Response to pwb (Reply #1)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 03:36 PM

13. I agree.

Putin et al are capitalizing on the fissures that were already in our country. Having President Obama in office for eight years had caused the molten hatred to the surface, and the Russians helped (and are still helping) Trump to call forth the eruption of violence in America.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 01:28 PM

2. I look at these events

through the lens of a Buddhist viewpoint. It is our minds, what we tell ourselves, that these problems first arise. Anger and hatred are poison. The whole point of Buddhism is to train our minds to have a different viewpoint. I know how hard it is not to hate Trump and his ignorant supporters. But hatred is still hatred. That is not to say that we cannot clearly see Trump and his sycophants for what they are, how dangerous and hurtful they are. I can oppose them and work to get them out of gov without nurturing hatred in my mind and heart. If we don't learn to control our anger and hatred, it will simply control us, kidnap us, and drag us out the door. I came across a quote by the great Tibetan teacher, Trungpa (now deceased).

"We tend to think that the threats to our society, or to ourselves, are outside of us. We fear that some enemy will destroy us. But a society is destroyed from the inside, not from an attack by outsiders. We imagine an enemy coming with spears and machine guns to kill us, massacre us. In reality, the only thing that can destroy us is within ourselves. If we have too much arrogance, we will destroy the possibility of being awake, and then we cannot use our intuitive openness to extend ourselves in situations properly. Instead, we generate tremendous aggression."

– Chögyam Trungpa

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Response to vlyons (Reply #2)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 02:39 PM

7. Nameste

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Response to vlyons (Reply #2)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 03:55 PM

14. As a Buddhist, I was instructed to view difficult people as

treasure troves, as they provide us with many opportunities to cultivate patience and practice loving-kindness.

This practice is getting harder, rather than easier.

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Response to Harker (Reply #14)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 04:09 PM

17. thank you for sharing

nt

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Response to vlyons (Reply #2)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 06:45 PM

21. My friend Rubin

used to quote Mark Twain when we corresponded. I remember when, in one of his letters from solitary confinement, his noting that "bitterness contaminates the vessel that contains it." And 40 years later, it would only take me a minute to get that letter out of a file, and find the paragraphs that follow. We gain nothing from hating, and risk contamination if we go there.

At the same time, it is essential that we recognize that there are people who pose threats to "others," and that some of them opt to engage in behaviors that forfeit the right to be part of the larger community for various periods of time. The best way to deal with them at this time is the rule of law. If, for example, a person sends bombs in the mail, or shoots people in their house of worship, having them arrested, tried, convicted, and incarcerated is the most appropriate response society has. At the same time, it is important to work to prevent more people from taking that route.

As citizens, it is good to be aware of things ranging from the growing forces of hatred that threatens our country (and world), to how the legal system works best.

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Response to vlyons (Reply #2)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 11:41 PM

30. What if I agree 100% intellectually but in my gut I loathe Trump and his blind supporters?

Difficult to reconcile. Language enables yet traps our thoughts.
The apparent dualism even of quantum reality is found here also.

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Response to triron (Reply #30)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 09:41 AM

35. Have you tried thinking different thoughts?

works for me!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 01:47 PM

3. I am disgusted and outraged

But at the same time quietly hoping that these latest attacks by nationalist extremists will wake up some trump supporters and cause them to turn their hearts to the good side.

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Response to coeur_de_lion (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 04:10 PM

18. I hope so

But I am continually astounded how many MAGAs stick with him no matter what. Its getting closer and closer to his statement of killing someone on 5th avenue and getting away with it will actually come true.

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Response to coeur_de_lion (Reply #3)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 09:57 PM

22. Right.

I know a gentleman through the sport of boxing. He and I are friends on FB. He is a red-neck republican, and as the elections approach, he posts more foolish shit. I view his as a good guy, just not particularly intelligent. A few weeks ago, I started responding to his posts, at about a one-out-of-three frequency. I wasn't saying, "You are wrong," as that would only result in defensiveness. Instead, I patiently documented that his source was inaccurate. Within a few days, some of his other friends started doing so, too. And he now responds by thanking us for pointing out his sources were wrong, and thanking us for correct information.

I could be wrong, but I suspect the best way to reach people like him is to do so individually. Groups are more difficult to reach most of the time. But even then, if we talk to individuals within the group, it is possible. That's why I love "To Kill a Mockingbird."

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #22)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 11:12 PM

28. My favorite movie

I'm trying to learn moderation but I am famously blunt and direct.

You are so much more patient and tactful.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 02:11 PM

4. Outrage: I remember that book. It was about the OJ Simpson trial.

It was written by Vincent Bugliosi, and I could not finish it.

And of course, he was right: "...the presumption of innocence applies only inside a courtroom." That certainly applies to the cases before us.

I am not as coherent as I usually am; hence these disjointed thoughts. I apologize for them. I merely wanted to tell you how much I respect you and your writing, and that is always true.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #4)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 03:16 PM

9. He also wrote "The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder"

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Response to OMGWTF (Reply #9)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 04:01 PM

15. Wasn't he the attorney he tried Manson?

He knows evil and hate first hand.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #15)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 11:09 PM

27. Yes. He is.

He is an extraordinary man. Remember that he sent Manson to trial when, in fact, Manson did not participate in the LoBianca murders. He wasn't even there, yet Bugliosi persuaded the jury that Manson's intent was so murderous and heinous that he deserved to be tried for the crimes.

The book he wrote about the five things the DAs in the OJ Simpson did wrong was nothing short of brilliant.

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Response to CaliforniaPeggy (Reply #4)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 10:06 PM

23. He was a talented

author. I enjoyed his non-fiction books. (I don't think I've read any fiction since high school.) I didn't always agree with him, but always respected him.

Note: I did not detect anything "disjointed" in your response. Made perfect sense to me, though at my age, most of my thinking is disjointed! Sometimes, when I'm talking to myself, I have a hard time following whatever I'm talking about!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 02:29 PM

5. Thanks for your good piece, H2O man.

We all need to remember that it is not just our individual different perspectives that can drive us apart, but also outside programmed influences that have a reason to do so.

We all need to stay strong in our humanity and caring, even when we feel overcome by the negativity from those purposeful minions of discord.

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Response to erronis (Reply #5)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 10:20 PM

24. Exactly! Well said!

Very well said, indeed. I like that. I'm reminded of a quote from my old friend Oren Lyons, Faith-keeper of the Onondaga Nation:

"We must seek out the spiritual people, because only that is going to help us survive. We have a great force -- a great brotherhood. This brotherhood involves all living things. And that, of course, includes us all. We are talking about the natural world, the natural force, all the trees, everything that grows, the water. That is part of our force.

"But when we gather spiritual force in one place, you also gather the negative force. We begin to perceive the enemy now, the power and presence of the negative force.

"There is a great battle coming."

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 02:34 PM

6. Your essay wasn't as strange as the times we

live in. I'm trying to find some escape and comfort somewhere without withdrawing completely into myself.

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Response to Boomerproud (Reply #6)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 10:23 PM

25. I hear you.

I enjoy being a semi-hermit, and if things were better, would opt to live quietly from now on. But the state of the union doesn't allow for that. At my advanced age, I don't have the energy to accomplish a fraction of what I once did easily. Still, I try to do my part. But I allow myself breaks to hang out with my dogs, walk my property, and read Carl Jung.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 02:58 PM

8. What was the trigger that ignited Bower? the Caravans


The sensational violence and tremendous grief that the country has experienced in the Pittsburgh shooting has also dulled the country into perceiving Bowers as being as simply another ticking time bomb that went off.

While Bowers was a long term anti-Semite he did not go off 2 months ago or 5 months ago.

He went off this Saturday. As all crime show watchers know serial killer analysts look for a particular "trigger" that set this mass killer of on this day.

For Bowers what ignited his anti-Semitism was the constant hyping of sensational lies about the Caravans by President Trump and FOX news. This is not speculation, he spelled it out in his last tweet. He thought that HIAS was bringing caravans of murderers to attack "his people". It wasn't the religious ceremonies that triggered him to act at that moment it was the sensationalizing of the dangers of the caravans coming to our border.

Trump and FOX news lit the match, and that is a fact.



https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/27/pittsburgh-shooting-suspect-antisemitism

The final post read: “I can’t sit by and watch my people get slaughtered. Screw your optics, I’m going in.”

That post, from Saturday morning, referenced “HIAS”, a global not-for-profit organization, founded in 1881 as the “Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society” to help Jews fleeing pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe. It now protects refugees.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #8)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 11:30 PM

29. "I can't sit by and watch my people getting slaughtered."

WHO did he think was getting slaughtered ? Did he believe that 12 peaceful, worshipping Jews in Pittsburgh were slaughtering people ? This reeks of mental illness (which I believe anti-Semitism to be) more than any political affiliation.

And like the guy who shot up Ping Pong Pizza in DC because he "had to check into it (child sex-trafficing)" himself, what is with these white men who suddenly think that they alone are in charge of police matters ? That they will get to the bottom of this. When did we transfer police powers to these individuals ?

This looks like mental illness to me. Maybe the DSM will need to add a new category: Trump Derangement Syndrome.

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Response to Haggis for Breakfast (Reply #29)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 12:06 AM

32. There are thousands of these disassociated guys who are loaded to the gills with crazy


Thy listen to Limbaugh or Fox and go off.

The thing is that there is a lot more of these guys than people realize.

Here is an attack that happened 2 blocks from my home but because no children were killed it never made the national news.

Guy goes running up to the school yelling about gays and Obama and starts shooting at children. Fortunately he was a terrible shot and even more importantly when he was fumbling to reload two undocumented landscape workers rushed over and subdued him saving dozens of laws.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-carlsbad-kelly-elementary-shooting-victims-testify-2011mar07-story.html

I believe that law enforcement and media have an agreement to try and keep the ones without a fatality quiet in order to not trigger copy cat and give other people ideas.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-carlsbad-kelly-elementary-shooting-victims-testify-2011mar07-story.html

here explains about the heroes who I believe are DACA type without documentation. Trump would try to get them thrown out.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-hailed-as-heroes-construction-workers-who-stopped-2010oct11-htmlstory.html


There is a lot more of these crazies being triggered by RW media than people realize.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #32)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 12:45 AM

33. Maybe the media SHOULD start putting this information out there,

because that's another thing we keep hearing, is how isolated these incidents are. If more of them are exposed, they won't seem so isolated anymore. People will realize just how widespread this truly is.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #32)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 12:13 PM

36. There are.

Charlottesville should have been more of a wake-up call than it was. These types are not limited to the skinheads driving 1983 trucks with confederate rags. They aren't all the loners described after violent outbursts as "a quiet man who kept to himself." They can be found at various stratifications in society -- some wear uniforms, and a few are in the White House.

In the late summer, an associate told me that the Southern Poverty Law Center and various law enforcement agencies were aware that numerous groups were not "merely" stockpiling guns these days. They had stockpiles of explosives. He believes that Trump's rants are attempts to encourage these groups to "act" if the Congress and/or Mr. Mueller pose too much a threat to his presidency. I've been thinking about what he said, as we approach the November elections.

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Response to Haggis for Breakfast (Reply #29)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 01:40 PM

40. S'mae Haggis for Breakfast.

Dwi'n cytuno'n llawn - mae anti-Semitism yn yfiachyd meddwl.

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Response to geardaddy (Reply #40)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 05:28 PM

42. S'mae Geardaddy.

Dw i ddim yn deall casineb hwn. Mae'n wenwyn fath. Fel canser mae'n ei fwyta yr enaid. Mae'n torri fy nghalon.



Aros yn gall yn y byd hwn hyll, ffrind.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 03:20 PM

10. ThanksWaterMan

How I remember your family tragedy.
Great post.

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Response to malaise (Reply #10)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 12:22 PM

37. Thanks.

My cousin and I are working on getting the police union to honor the NYS Supreme Court's decision regarding the murderer's pension. His son had a love of animals, and worked with other family members to care for "strays." We'd prefer that pension go to take care of animals, rather than to the murderer's prison account.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 03:24 PM

11. K&R

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Response to berni_mccoy (Reply #11)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 12:22 PM

38. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 03:27 PM

12. Thank you for your thoughtful essay

We are in very strange times. We need to be aware, as well as take care of ourselves in facing this sickness. We need our kindness, courage, and love, as well as taking care of one another. Critical thinking and community.
Thank you, H2O Man and everyone in DU.

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Response to cp (Reply #12)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 05:46 PM

20. 👍🏾❤️

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 04:01 PM

16. I'm so sorry for your cousin and his son

I remember crying about it after reading your story and can't believe it's been four years. I hope the family has recovered somewhat from that awful day.
We are indeed in strange times.
Peace brother.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 05:45 PM

19. You bring up a critical question, which is, "How...

How do we discuss it?

For myself, I’ve been at a profound loss of words. Aside from my own inflamed reactions to the people that do and/or lead this, I don’t know what to say.

I know that a lot of what’s needed is inner change. That could refer to individuals or to organizations, I think. Deep change is needed, which at the heart of things, is where change starts. Self awareness, self-reflection, and a will to some kind of action. These are the qualities that seem most important and to be cultivated, to me.

Edit to add— I’m sorry once again...I remember your family tragedy. 💔✌🏾



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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 10:35 PM

26. And the Cure?

if there is one.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2018, 11:44 PM

31. Peace H2O Man . I remember the tragedy of what happened to your cousin and his son

We are in very strange times. Sayoc was reported for stalking on twitter recently but when she reporte his stalking , they replied that they had reviewed her charges and determined that they were unfounded. I think one of the problems is how accepting our society has gotten with hate talk and action and what's considered within normal range now.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 06:32 AM

34. Peace to you brother

xo

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 01:39 PM

39. Thanks for your well-written, thoughtful essay.

I remember your posts about your cousin's and his son's murder. I hope you find peace with the murderer's conviction.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 02:21 PM

41. Fearfulness is usually countered with hate

I remember being gullible as a child. I believed what I was told and some of it lead to being molested by a pedophile. I was a trusting child, completely unaware of such vile evil.

I’ve paid a heavy price for that innocence for decades. People here in DU have had many conversations on this theme so there is no need to go over what the price in self esteem and trust issues. The reason I bring it up at all is that it’s an example of why it is necessary sometimes to vehemently reject the murderers and their instigators. It’s because if we don’t we will find ourselves again living as their victims.

Today the talk of reaching out and using love to counter Trump and his deliberate use of violent language to create havoc and hatred towards people like me is making me feel literally sick. Hating Trump for what he is and does is a survival reaction. It doesn’t mean I would commit evil on him or his minions. But it does mean that I cannot reach out in love or brotherhood to them. It is not my responsibility to turn their hearts away from the hatred they seem to need. I would be a fool, after my life’s hardest lessons, to ignore what I’ve learned for self survival. My tendency to think all people are good would only encourage them to use and abuse me. I would be complicit in encouraging their worst behavior. I hope you can understand this.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Mon Oct 29, 2018, 05:31 PM

43. K&R...

We are in strange times

Yes we are H2O Man

Yes we are.

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