General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThousand Oaks shooter shot all the security at the club first.
Damn!https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/us/shooting-california-thousand-oaks.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Roland99
(53,342 posts)You think the guy who killed people for no apparent reason is mentally stable?
Roland99
(53,342 posts)LisaL
(44,973 posts)qazplm135
(7,447 posts)does not mean being an idiot or incapable of intelligent action.
Jeffersons Ghost
(15,235 posts)AwakeAtLast
(14,125 posts)like a military ambush!
sfwriter
(3,032 posts)Required good guys with guns are always n+1 for any shooting.
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,586 posts)The fact he took out the security guards first pretty much shoots down Trump's victim-shaming statement that the synagogue should have had a guard at the door.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)There was an officer at Parkland.
A good guy with a gun doesn't always stop a bad guy with a gun. At best they just tend to slow him down.
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)And he abandoned the fight.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/06/08/pulse-nightclub-security-guard-once-hailed-a-hero-is-being-sued-by-victims-of-the-mass-shooting/?utm_term=.59490520f781
And he "sheltered in place" outside the school.
No, especially when he takes no action whatsoever.
You say that like it's a bad thing. By slowing him down, they save lives. Please do not diminish that.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)So it didn't even slow him down, having an officer there.
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)When the responding officers arrived, he exchanged fire with them, killing one. The incident ended shortly after the arrival of armed officers, as is usually the case.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)WillowTree
(5,325 posts)Straw Man
(6,624 posts)A security guard at the door of a bar is also known as a "bouncer." Bar bouncers in suburban Southern California are not typically armed.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Why do gunners always try to push the "more guns would have prevented this" BS?
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Plus, there was an armed State Trooper with the officer that got shot. So the shooting did not end when armed officers showed up.
In my area, off duty officers are armed. I don't know what the rules are in California.
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)Actually, it did. Two officers arrived and put an end to the killing spree. Sadly, one officer died in the effort.
When met with armed resistance, the perpetrator ultimately retreated and took his own life, as is often the case.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)The trooper got people out then the fallen officer, then drew back to await help while the shooting continued, that is what news accounts are saying. The shooting did not stop when the first two officers showed up.
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)I haven't seen any that bear out what you're saying.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Shooting continued after the first two officers arrived, but stopped before the SWAT team arrived.
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)I can't find any AP or Reuters story that mentions what was going on inside after the initial encounter with law enforcement.
USA Today says the shooting lasted "about three minutes."
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/2018/11/08/thousand-oaks-shooting-timeline/1931287002/
This is consistent with the time it took for the first officers to arrive on scene. It is not consistent with the reported "15 to 20 minutes" that elapsed between the first law-enforcement encounter and the arrival of the SWAT team.
https://www.apnews.com/d2737a3853bc4aea8a27c957c75c88ab
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)The article clearly stated that shooting continued after the police officer went down and that the trooper focused on clearing people and getting the fallen officer out of the bar, then he took up a position and waited for help. But the time the SWAT team and other officers arrived, the shooting had stopped. Exactly WHAT reason would I have to make that up?
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)I would like to see what the articles actually stated. You may have made unsupported inferences. It happens to the best of us.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Because per the article, more people were shot after the first police arrived. As I read it, I found the thought of that to be horrific. Why in the fuck would I make something like that up?
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)I haven't been able to find any articles that support what you're saying. I'm not accusing you of making anything up. There is a possibility that you are honestly mistaken. Let's see the articles, and then we can discuss it. Otherwise it's just an unsupported assertion.
I did make an honest effort to find articles that support your assertion. I couldn't find any. You are in a better position to do this than I. Use your browser history to find where you got your information. Post the links. Then we'll talk.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)raccoon
(31,110 posts)Fucking Arsenal. Nt
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)... a "Fucking Arsenal."
ChubbyStar
(3,191 posts)You want to debate semantics after people have just been murdered? Shame on you.
raccoon
(31,110 posts)Straw Man
(6,624 posts)Hysterical hyperbole serves no one. It's not about semantics. It's about facts.
raccoon
(31,110 posts)Who killed 2 LEOs
But those people in Thousand Oaks are just as dead anyway.
I am so sick of this shit.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)slaughtered their loved ones.
They probably would have preferred that hed been slowed down BEFORE he legally bought that gun.
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 9, 2018, 03:18 PM - Edit history (1)
OK -- let's talk concrete action plans. What are you proposing to achieve that?
atreides1
(16,079 posts)"Mr. Long first shot a security officer outside the club and then walked inside, turned to the right and shot other security and employees before starting to fire on patrons in the main part of the club."
This indicates that he might have been planning this attack for some time. He evidently did his homework and already knew where security and staff were going to be located!!!
Now they just have to find a motive!!!
LiberalFighter
(50,928 posts)More guns?
More people with guns?
People should shoot guns in the bar instead of dancing?
Close all bars?
Tell any potential shooter they must have a wrist band indicating they can shoot people?
sinkingfeeling
(51,457 posts)Straw Man
(6,624 posts)... if there had NOT been a "good guy with a gun" on scene?
essme
(1,207 posts)is, that it would have been about the same.
Not sure what your argument is.
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)is, that it would have been about the same.
... you are absolutely, tragically wrong. If there had not been an armed response, he would have continued killing until he ran out of ammunition.
My argument is that "good guys with guns" ended this incident and saved many, many lives.
sinkingfeeling
(51,457 posts)from the time law enforcement arrived until shooter killed himself. This post was about the fact that he knew there were security people in place and he disabled them first.
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)They were just victims like everyone else.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)In my area, off duty officers are armed. I don't know what the rules are in California juristictions.
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)Rules for off-duty carry vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but that rule is universal.
In any case, the stories of off-duty officers shielding victims with their bodies would make no sense if those officers were armed. They would have been returning fire.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)No gun.
maxsolomon
(33,345 posts)its just a new wrinkle in the profile of the alienated rampage shooter.
rampage shootings will never stop in a country so saturated with guns that imposes few responsibilities on their owners. organize the unorganized militia.
He was ex-military so he knew very well how to efficiently kill. He was trained to to do so.
Autumn
(45,084 posts)Only in a war zone do you need an extended magazine. Tragic.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)The off duty cops were not working security.
Your OP is a bit misleading, but I assume you know that.
Raine
(30,540 posts)here in California they're not allowed to have guns in a bar. I remember the off duty dumb ass cop that was in a bar (not in California) doing back flips and his gun went off and hit someone! That''s why off duty cops don't have guns in a bar.
Fla_Democrat
(2,547 posts)Raine
(30,540 posts)I forgot he was FBI or where it was (I'm not getting any younger, haha).
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Give them guns, set very strict rules on their behavior with those guns on them (i.e., no damned break dancing).
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)major debacle
(508 posts)... if he was able to cut them all down before starting in on the unarmed patrons... speaking of which, if they HAD been armed, locked and loaded and firearms at the ready while they danced, more of them might have survived.
Or they might have cut each other to pieces in their attemps to shoot the bad guy.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)In eastcoast cities and Chicago, they do from what I understand.
Azathoth
(4,608 posts)Situational awareness and threat assessment were drilled into him.
dembotoz
(16,804 posts)he might have been crazy but he knew how to attack