General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCalifornia is Using Slave Labor to Fight the Wildfires
snip
Well, there is a list of reasons, all of which reference the literal definition of slavery:
They dont receive proper remuneration: While fighting fires, inmates earn an average of $2 per day and a whopping total of $1 per hour. But relax, the firefighters are also paid with credit. According to ABC10: Two days of credit for every day of incarceration (or 66.6%) are awarded to nonviolent offenders serving in fire camps
They work very hard: They work in 24-hour shift alongside firefighters who are being paid, including overtime. Aside from fighting fires, a California attorney describes the work as clearing fire breaks, loading sandbags for future uses, restoring historical areas, maintaining parks and clearing dead, dry brush that is a fire hazard.
The program contributes to mass incarceration: In 2014, a Deputy Attorney General argued that releasing California inmates would severely impact fire camp participation, a dangerous outcome while California is in the middle of a difficult fire season and severe drought.
Read More: https://www.theroot.com/california-is-using-slave-labor-to-fight-the-wildfires-1830420400
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Hey, they are volunteers... couldn't possibly be called slavery, Damn It! They earned this right!
LBM20
(1,580 posts)Convicts have violated our laws and victimized people. Duly convicted, they need to make amends and pay back to society. Public work projects are entirely appropriate. Yes, provide for safety, but do public service. I also believe in education and training programs for inmates willing to do it.
rzemanfl
(29,573 posts)opinion. On edit, fixed. Thank goodness for canned air.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,467 posts)demosincebirth
(12,544 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,467 posts)Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)pnwmom
(109,009 posts)because they can make money off of them.
We shouldn't set up a system that ENCOURAGES putting more people in prison.
SCantiGOP
(13,874 posts)I dont see how any Progressive could state otherwise.
FSogol
(45,555 posts)and laborers. Your argument might work if they got time off for participating, but that is not the case.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)both becomes lines of profit and free labor to both private industry and us as taxpayers. A reality begging for abuse, so of course abuse obliges.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)Iggo
(47,578 posts)Wow.
But hey, it's a big tent.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)Let's take a little look at Ferguson and Prison for Profit.
https://rare.us/rare-politics/rare-liberty/police-state/the-dojs-ferguson-report-reveals-a-pattern-of-government-abuse-corruption-and-injustice/
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)are putting others at risk, in addition to endangering their own lives.
It's not some "public work project" that anyone could or should do.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)Our beleaguered firefighters need reinforcements and prisoners have a means to both reduce their sentences and to do something positive as a way of making amends and re-building self-respect as volunteers.
People are dying in these fires and losing everything they have.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)You should read the whole article.
yonder
(9,682 posts)and if they make it through training camp, are allowed to assist as required.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)Small-Axe
(359 posts)This program gives inmates an opportunity to help others and earn an earlier release.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)However you should read this book.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2012/2/26/1068168/-The-lie-about-when-slavery-ended
The author mentioned, Douglas Blackmon won a Pulitzer for Slavery by Another Name.
Based on Blackmons research, Slavery by Another Name spans eight decades, from 1865 to 1945, revealing the interlocking forces in both the South and the North that enabled this neoslavery to begin and persist. Using archival photographs and dramatic re-enactments filmed on location in Alabama and Georgia, it tells the forgotten stories of both victims and perpetrators of neoslavery and includes interviews with their descendants living today
It's been a long time since the 1930's. And in spite of Spivak's exposes which created a stir at the time, the ripple in the water of history subsided, smoothed over into the glassy smooth false face we see reflected at us even today.
We still hear people mutter "black people should get over itslavery was a long time ago." Was it really? Is it over? What say you then about the continuing inequity of our Criminal Injustice system, our stop and frisk laws and the bogus war on drugs which is essentially a war on poor peoplemany of whom are people of color?
Now move to the future. Ferguson.
The DOJs Ferguson report reveals a pattern of government abuse, corruption and injustice
Policing for Profit
Fergusons law enforcement practices are shaped by the Citys focus on revenue rather than by public safety needs. This emphasis on revenue has compromised the institutional character of Fergusons police department, contributing to a pattern of unconstitutional policing City officials routinely urge [the FPD] to generate more revenue through enforcement. Investigation of the Ferguson Police Department, p. 2
What this means in practice is that the city actually made parts of its budget dependent on revenues from fines collected by police. This created an incentive for police to hassle people over even the most harmless infractions if it meant they could earn a buck for local government.
For lower-income people and small businesses, this is economically devastating: These arent violent criminals. These are people who make the same mistakes you or I do speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, forgetting to get your car inspected on time. The difference is that they dont have the money to pay the fines. Or they have kids, or jobs that dont allow them to take time off for two or three court appearances. When you cant pay the fines, you get fined for that, too. And when you cant get to court, you get an arrest warrant.
snip
Fergusons law enforcement practices overwhelmingly impact African Americans. Data collected by the Ferguson Police Department from 2012 to 2014 shows that African Americans account for 85% of vehicle stops, 90% of citations, and 93% of arrests made by FPD officers, despite comprising only 67% of Fergusons population. African Americans are more than twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during vehicle stops even after controlling for non-race based variables such as the reason the vehicle stop was initiated, but are found in possession of contraband 26% less often than white drivers, suggesting officers are impermissibly considering race as a factor when determining whether to search. [ ]
Nearly 90% of documented force used by FPD officers was used against African Americans. In every canine bite incident for which racial information is available, the person bitten was African American. Investigation of the Ferguson Police Department, p. 4-5
https://rare.us/rare-politics/rare-liberty/police-state/the-dojs-ferguson-report-reveals-a-pattern-of-government-abuse-corruption-and-injustice/
Prison for profit and no, the ones that are there, not all of them are hardened criminals. More like a debtors prison.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)However, with respect to the fire brigades, I'm all for them.
There is no profit motive here. No one is being exploited for gain.
People have been dying in these fire and others are seeing everything they have go up in smoke.
Volunteering on fire crews lets inmates do something that is very positive while earning a shorter sentence. I see nothing but good in this.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)https://www.vox.com/2018/8/9/17670494/california-prison-labor-mendocino-carr-ferguson-wildfires
That is profit.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)We are having an extraordinary emergency where we've been pulling in every firefighter we can via mutual aid from across California and from neighboring states. And we are still outmanned.
It is a catastrophe. Inmates are doing something heroic. It is a great positive for people who are incarcerated to do something that truly serves others.
They are not assembling products so a corporate entity can make money but are saving lives, and homes, and dreams.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)I fear for my cousins. The pictures they sent are frightening and they are still far away for now.
I still do not approve of prison labor. We have 15K troops twiddling their thumbs at the boarder where the 'resident sent them as a political stunt. They are costing the American millions. Why does the ass not send them to help you.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)Any aid, from any quarter, is welcome.
My nephew's home almost burned and my in-laws' condo nearly did as well. The flames could not have been any closer (literally).
My home was not threatened, but we've been breathing smoke and worried about friends and loved ones. The Wolsey fire is in our backyard.
I do not believe in exploiting prisoners as a source of cheap labor. I do think fighting fires, saving homes, and saving dreams is the sorts of activities that are restorative to people's souls. This is a way to make amends and to reduce prison time for inmates.
It is a mitzvah.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)You are there and have family there. I have family there. This situation is horrific.
The pictures I have seen are frightening. I do not believe any inmate would find walking into it would find it restorative.
The president is the one with the resources and he has refused any aid.
Peace and safety to you and yours. May this end soon.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)For example, I think few things could be more restorative to an inmate than saving lives. Thats the ultimate restorative experience in my estimation.
Anyone who has fought these fires should feel both a sense of self-respect and the gratitude of those in harms way.
Best to you and yours.
yonder
(9,682 posts)And he makes an argument for using the word slavery here. From what I know of that program, I can't agree with him in this case.
On a related note, there is a DU'er whose name begins with an "o". I expect him/her to show up anytime.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)I read the book and read a lot about Ferguson. Sigh.
yonder
(9,682 posts)made in both Harriot's article and the title of your thread: "California is Using Slave Labor to Fight the Wildfires". This thread has wandered away from that title a bit. Despite how they became inmates, they worked their butts off to become members of a volunteer program of inmate firefighters and are working their butts off right now. They are not slaves.
Baitball Blogger
(46,769 posts)sheshe2
(83,955 posts)There commander and chief got the military to send them to the boarder as a publicity stunt. They joined the armed forces, it is their job.
Baitball Blogger
(46,769 posts)If there were someone to appeal to Trump, can they be deployed to help with the fires?
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)However I am sure he would prefer them at the boarder where he plays his games. They also signed on to serve their commander and chief....so I guess anything could happen.
demosincebirth
(12,544 posts)labor? You must have a vivid imagination. The do get paid, get hree squares a day and a roof over their heads. Don't forget, these guys are paying a debt to society.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)No. I have read our past history.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)There's been a prison crew working on a nearby (rural) road.
They use chainsaws and cut the trees, and others feed the wood into chippers.
They get out of the walls for a day, and make a little bit of money.
Anything's better than looking at the walls.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)Are they being watch by a guard or shackled? Honest question here.
panader0
(25,816 posts)They wear all the gear--chaps, helmets, goggles etc.
Good behavior is a prerequisite to work road crew.
I knew a guy who got 18 months for two extreme DUIs back to back.
He rode a bus an hour and a half each way to pick tomatoes in one
of those huge greenhouses.
Anything to get out of the walls.
Raine
(30,541 posts)USALiberal
(10,877 posts)sheshe2
(83,955 posts)Some are just kids as young as 16. They have died.
So how do you know they like it so much.
Decoy of Fenris
(1,954 posts)Here's a video on it as well. Quick little google search. Three minutes, worth the watch. Most things I've heard from prison firefighters are very similar to this.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)Propaganda? Not sure. However it is a feel good video.
I did post that CA saves a 100 million by using them. Profit.
Decoy of Fenris
(1,954 posts)Either way, "savings" is not "profit", it's just a lack of an expenditure and doesn't account for non-financial (or even some limited financial) variables. To call this outright slavery is doing a gross disservice to people who still suffer actual enslavement.
That's a bit off point though and it's a conversation I have neither the time nor particular interest to get into. Just figured I'd post a video corroborating what was said by the poster above. Have a pleasant evening.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)54. Could be propaganda, could not be. If so, there's a whole lot of lying from the prisoner fighters.
Lol...The all white prisoners in that video would be lying. It was a paid for commercial. Propaganda. If they were only cutting brush on a clear sunny day, then why did two die last year? They were far closer to the fire than the informercial shows.
Perhaps you should read the links I left in this thread. Slavery By Another Name. Douglas Blackmon. Then review the link to Ferguson.
They have been trying to tear down the wall of institutional racism for years. 'BRICK' BY 'BRICK.' Some of us have long memories and wish to change it.
You have a pleasant evening as well, Decoy of Fenris.
Nite.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)betsuni
(25,687 posts)yardwork
(61,715 posts)I will never forget that post.
I assumed you had left DU after that. Guess not.
betsuni
(25,687 posts)Right, that's "constructive criticism."
Bayard
(22,181 posts)He said he loved getting outside to do anything. He would always volunteer. My understanding is that the firefighters are volunteers.
Too bad he got sent back to prison for killing his father.
Demobrat
(9,003 posts)And go work in the prison laundry or make license plates if they prefer? Serious question. How does it work. Are they forced to do it??
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)demosincebirth
(12,544 posts)obamanut2012
(26,158 posts)They deserve to get paid more, and to be given waivers so they can become firefighters after they get out if they want, but they are volunteers.
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)sheshe2
(83,955 posts)Yet they already found it...cheaper.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,794 posts)Demonaut
(8,931 posts)or we could leave the inmates (who might want to help) to their own devices...locked away.
sheshe2
(83,955 posts)Probably the one the prison used... the threat to leave them behind to die in the fire?
They did that with the hurricane in SC. EVERYONE was demanded to evacuate, yet they filled sandbags and were left behind.
Demonaut
(8,931 posts)did they not break the common law that binds us?
Did ya read my links in this thread?
Demonaut
(8,931 posts)rollin74
(1,993 posts)he loved it.
said it was WAY better than sitting around in the prison and it was a very highly sought after job among the inmates
he was lucky to get a spot on the fire crew because there was a lengthy waiting list of inmates who wanted that job
Demonaut
(8,931 posts)which is a distance from the fire, with a safe escape route
scarletlib
(3,418 posts)Generally I do think that prisoners who do work deserve a decent wage for their labor. That said, this is a volunteer program and the situation in California is catastrophic. Anyone and everyone who has the ability and willingness to fight theses fires should be welcome. I sincerely hope that when this is over the State of California will recognize and honor the work these men are doing. One way to make sure that happens would be for the citizens of the State to let their representatives know of their gratitude.
obamanut2012
(26,158 posts)They deserve to get paid more, and to be given criminal background waivers so they can become firefighters after they get out if they want, but they are volunteers.
There is indeed slave labor re: prisoners, but the inmate firefighters aren't it.
Also, for those who don't know: quite a few women inmates do this, not just men.
melm00se
(4,997 posts)are whipped up into a frenzy, prison labor (even for no pay) is explicitly constitutional.
Please review the 13th Amendment (emphasis added):
In addition, to quote Chandra Bozelko:
pwb
(11,294 posts)This is a real stretch.