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spicysista

(1,663 posts)
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 02:11 AM Dec 2018

No, Russia Did Not Cause Black People To .....Whatever We're Being Blamed For, Now

No, DUers, Russia did not cause an outsized number of black folks to stay home in 2016. Yes, there was a drop off in the number of black voters in 2016. However, there are a number of other measurable factors that did have a very real impact on black voter turnout. In short, no matter how you shake it, we did not give you #45!

There were many articles written to explain the impact of voter suppression, lack of access (thank you Justice Roberts), and fewer protections (again, thank you Justice Roberts) on the 2016 Election. I was sickened at all the "allies" whom seemed more upset about the few black people that sat out of the election than they were at the tons of white people that affirmatively voted FOR tRump.

I keep a few articles handy. Feel free to use them!

https://www.salon.com/2016/11/10/the-real-reason-black-voters-didnt-turn-out-for-hillary-clinton-and-how-to-fix-it/

From the article:
The low turnout for Clinton had little to do with her black support and everything to do with the effective campaign of voter suppression run by Republicans, one that has decimated accessible options for people of color. This election illustrates the importance of alternatives to the current voting system, which continues to actively disenfranchise marginalized populations subject to numerous barriers to entry. It’s time to update the ballot box to make sure everyone’s voice is being heard.

Voting in the U.S. isn’t equal for all groups. Black voters, who are often concentrated heavily in inner-city areas, are forced to endure the nation’s longest lines, ones that may discourage them from voting altogether. A study from the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies showed that black voters wait twice as long as white people to cast a ballot, with the longest wait times being in South Carolina, Florida and Maryland. Harvard researcher Stephen Pettigrew found that African-Americans were six times more likely than members of demographic groups to spend more than an hour in line in order to vote.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/democracy/reports/2016/11/11/292322/voter-suppression-laws-cost-americans-their-voices-at-the-polls/

From the article:
States have gone on a spree restricting voting rights and voter access since 2010, when Republican-controlled state legislatures began passing voter ID laws and other provisions making it more difficult to vote. Once the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act in Shelby County v. Holder in 2013, even more states made it harder to vote in ways that were targeted at and fell disproportionately on people of color, young people, and low-income people. Even after major legal victories for voting rights this year—rulings that showed voter suppression tactics presented a grave danger and would prevent eligible Americans from casting their ballots—14 states had new voting restrictions in place for the first time in a presidential election. These included cutting back early voting, restricting voter registration, and imposing strict voter ID requirements. It is difficult to say definitively how voter suppression laws affect voter participation and exactly how many citizens were prevented from voting. But one analysis in 2014 found a decline in voter participation of 2 percentage points to 3 percentage points that was attributable to changes in voter ID requirements.

https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsins-voter-id-law-suppressed-200000-votes-trump-won-by-23000/

From the article:
According to federal court records, 300,000 registered voters, 9 percent of the electorate, lacked strict forms of voter ID in Wisconsin. A new study by Priorities USA, shared exclusively with The Nation, shows that strict voter-ID laws, in Wisconsin and other states, led to a significant reduction in voter turnout in 2016, with a disproportionate impact on African-American and Democratic-leaning voters. Wisconsin’s voter-ID law reduced turnout by 200,000 votes, according to the new analysis. Donald Trump won the state by only 22,748 votes.



And just because this thread is a little salty, I thought I'd close with something sweet from Ms. Sam Bee! Enjoy!

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/samantha-bee-voter-turnout-election_us_58248486e4b0aac624894bca

62 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
No, Russia Did Not Cause Black People To .....Whatever We're Being Blamed For, Now (Original Post) spicysista Dec 2018 OP
Nothing wrong with being salty Glamrock Dec 2018 #1
Thanks, Glamrock. ;) spicysista Dec 2018 #2
Oh my god! Glamrock Dec 2018 #5
Here's a breakdown of 2006 and 2018 exit polls for anyone interested pecosbob Dec 2018 #3
Thanks for the link. spicysista Dec 2018 #7
Yes, and as I posted in another thread we should be more specific when we use the term evangelicals pecosbob Dec 2018 #9
:) spicysista Dec 2018 #11
I don't like the use of the term evangelical at all. murielm99 Dec 2018 #14
I stand corrected... pecosbob Dec 2018 #17
Obviously, those Christians who make a point Mariana Dec 2018 #22
Yes, actually it was white Fundamentalists who voted heavily for Trump. raging moderate Dec 2018 #26
Yes. murielm99 Dec 2018 #46
Thank you. Your post was much less salty than my thoughts when I first saw the original LoisB Dec 2018 #4
It certainly made me feel a way..... spicysista Dec 2018 #8
They need to cut it out with the myth that a dip in turnout by us was due to something other than Afromania Dec 2018 #6
Exactly! This... spicysista Dec 2018 #10
what actually happened and even more openly happened in Georgia just last month against a Black JI7 Dec 2018 #12
Yes, a thousand times....yes! spicysista Dec 2018 #13
k&r bigtree Dec 2018 #15
Thank you, bigtree! ;) nt. spicysista Dec 2018 #16
How do you know what influence Russia had on the black community? Kentonio Dec 2018 #18
I know our own children were persuaded by various information they read and heard in the media. allgood33 Dec 2018 #19
+1 betsuni Dec 2018 #20
Well, Kentonio, I did not make this assertion...at all. spicysista Dec 2018 #23
I'm right beside you Kentonio Dec 2018 #31
;) spicysista Dec 2018 #33
Great post malaise Dec 2018 #21
Thank you, malaise! spicysista Dec 2018 #24
I agree. We all need to stop blaming each other for Trump becoming President. Tom Rinaldo Dec 2018 #25
I hope we can all agree to stop with circular firing squads attacking the most loyal Democratic .... spicysista Dec 2018 #27
russian bots concentrated social media attacks AND fake news beachbum bob Dec 2018 #28
All good points, to be sure. spicysista Dec 2018 #30
When con artists swindle people with false assertions, our legal system knows where to fix blame Tom Rinaldo Dec 2018 #36
Why couldn't it be both? But for suppressed turnout in Philly and Michigan and possibly Dream Girl Dec 2018 #29
Sure... spicysista Dec 2018 #32
I agree & am well aware of the vile actions involved with voter suppression. However, we need to be Dream Girl Dec 2018 #44
You are right. spicysista Dec 2018 #45
"But for suppressed turnout in Philly" BumRushDaShow Dec 2018 #61
I don't think the issue here is really blame, but rather susceptibility and targeted status. better Dec 2018 #34
I'm sorry , I must have missed your post. I would have answered sooner. spicysista Dec 2018 #41
I definitely get where you are coming from. better Dec 2018 #47
Hmmmm.... yup! I like it! spicysista Dec 2018 #49
All good, and thanks for the intellectual conversation! better Dec 2018 #50
"Make things better." What a beautiful way of being! spicysista Dec 2018 #54
I also like... better Dec 2018 #56
The focus Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2018 #35
I agree with this, Proud Liberal Dem! spicysista Dec 2018 #37
I definitely agree on that as well Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2018 #38
I'm with you 100%! Stellar Dec 2018 #39
Thanks, Stellar. ;) spicysista Dec 2018 #42
I'm not really inclined to give the Russians a free pass fescuerescue Dec 2018 #40
Yup....I said all THOSE things.... spicysista Dec 2018 #43
Thanks I must have missed it fescuerescue Dec 2018 #48
Okay, I'll bite. spicysista Dec 2018 #51
There's no bait or hook. fescuerescue Dec 2018 #58
That's good news, because I am NO fish! LOL! spicysista Dec 2018 #59
K&R! eleny Dec 2018 #52
Thank you, eleny! spicysista Dec 2018 #53
This is on my nerves since yesterday eleny Dec 2018 #60
You are 100% right. I assumed it wa a given that most DUers would understand that attempts by Russia Anon-C Dec 2018 #55
Thank you, Anon-C. spicysista Dec 2018 #57
538 did some great tweets on this... Adrahil Dec 2018 #62

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
7. Thanks for the link.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 02:37 AM
Dec 2018

They do really good work at the Kos. I loooove that they made distinctions when talking about religion as a predictive factor in voting patterns.

From the article:
Religion in American Politics is really White Evangelical vs. Not

We use language to describe religion in politics casting those who are religious in broad terms as opposed to those who are not religious. However, these exit polls help to shed light on why we need to be more specific.






pecosbob

(7,534 posts)
9. Yes, and as I posted in another thread we should be more specific when we use the term evangelicals
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 02:43 AM
Dec 2018

The term we should be using is white evangelicals. Non-white evangelicals voted 2/3 for Dems (exit polls and all their inaccuracies notwithstanding).

And while my demographic usually takes a pounding (and deservedly so) 47% of white males actually voted Dem.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
11. :)
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 03:06 AM
Dec 2018

I've posted on this subject before. There were many people of faith on the Edmund Pettus Bridge. Clergy of all stripes stood together in Charlottesville against hatred. There are many people whom, as an article of faith, believe in tending to the sick (healthcare for all), feeding the hungry, mourning with those who mourn, and welcoming the stranger.
It's good to make the distinction.

murielm99

(30,733 posts)
14. I don't like the use of the term evangelical at all.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 04:40 AM
Dec 2018

All Protestants who believe in the four Gospels are evangelicals. We are not all fundie wingnut trump humpers. Liberal and leftist Christians like Jimmy Carter more and believe he is following Christ's example.

Mariana

(14,854 posts)
22. Obviously, those Christians who make a point
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 06:54 AM
Dec 2018

to identify themselves as evangelical Christians don't agree with you. They think they are different, or they wouldn't be using the term to set themselves apart. Anyway, people get to call themselves what they want.

raging moderate

(4,297 posts)
26. Yes, actually it was white Fundamentalists who voted heavily for Trump.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:02 AM
Dec 2018

Not all Evangelical churches are Fundamentalist.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
8. It certainly made me feel a way.....
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 02:43 AM
Dec 2018

When I first saw the article, I had to gather myself a bit. Didn't we already do this? Smh. That's okay, though.


Afromania

(2,768 posts)
6. They need to cut it out with the myth that a dip in turnout by us was due to something other than
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 02:34 AM
Dec 2018

vote suppression. Even with empirically proven systematic disenfranchisement our turnout was right at 60% which is about around what it was in 04, and at the time record turnout. Voting for Obama was historic and for anybody to count on that every time is just silly.

By comparison I don't think trump has as much "base" as everybody thinks he does. Among everything else the tryhards got off the bench and got there to vote for their garbage bag, and general petri dish of awful, in large numbers.

Now that this shit is going sideways they'll return, in part, to spectating because reality is real and the "real American rural voter" is about to get kicked in the teeth by their vote.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
10. Exactly! This...
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 02:55 AM
Dec 2018

(The only loosely appropriate gif with a black cat.)

I could not agree more. I too feel that his support has waned, significantly. Many are too embarrassed to ever admit it. They are not coming to our side, but they aren't going to the polls for Dump, either. They aren't going to get their wall, they're still dealing with stagnant wages, swamped with drug addiction, and fear of the other. So, hopefully we can focus on motivating those who'll actually vote for us and work on restoring access to the ballot.
All this clownery is getting on my nerves.


JI7

(89,244 posts)
12. what actually happened and even more openly happened in Georgia just last month against a Black
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 03:22 AM
Dec 2018

Candidate.

the problem is the fucking right wingers on the court striking down voting rights and republicans ALWAYS doing anything they can to deny and make as difficult as possible for black people to vote.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
13. Yes, a thousand times....yes!
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 03:36 AM
Dec 2018

You're right. However, I am very hopeful about the future of Georgia state elections. Stacey is absolutely determined to make elections more fair. She hasn't really slowed down at all. I know that Beto and others are getting most of the national attention. No shade against any of them, but my girl is focused and she is awesome. Georgia GOP should be afraid. I don't know what she plans to do in the future, but I will be HERE FOR IT!

Jason Johnson posted a great article at The Root.
https://www.theroot.com/nobody-should-be-talking-about-beto-and-gillum-in-2020-1831061434

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
18. How do you know what influence Russia had on the black community?
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 05:33 AM
Dec 2018

If you believe Russian disinformation didn't effect the black community, then presumably it must not have any effect on any part of the American electorate then?

Sorry, but this isn't a black or white issue. Disinformation using effective mass marketing techniques is proven to work, and it worked here. There isn't one particular demographic to blame, EVERYONE is susceptible to this kind of targeting, and if you think you aren't then it's even more likely that you are.

 

allgood33

(1,584 posts)
19. I know our own children were persuaded by various information they read and heard in the media.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 06:26 AM
Dec 2018

We were shocked by their talking points about HRC and wondered what we did wrong in raising them to be critical thinkers. They fell for the bot posts and messages to their phones and iPads, being heavy followers of Facebook and Twitter and Instagram. In our discussions with them at family dinners we became horrified by their spewing of RW talking points that they didn't even realize were RW talking points. Four females and two male children...all four females and one son were for either Bernie or staying home and not voting. After our recounting of history under the Clinton administration and an in-depth discussion about the 90's the crime bill and what the neighborhood streets were like, banking red-lining, access to positions of power etc. Two changed their minds and said they voted for HRC the rest did not vote much to our sadness. So yes, whether it was Russia or just the RW or Bernie attacks on HRC it's difficult to really know but the impact was real and horrific.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
23. Well, Kentonio, I did not make this assertion...at all.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 09:57 AM
Dec 2018

Last edited Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)

I did not say that it had NO effect on the community or campaign. What I said was that there are other factors that had a more MEASURABLE impact on voting. Check out the articles linked.
Making sure folks have the proper I.D., a nearby polling station, knowledge of where to vote, and gets their vote to count should be a top priority. This, in those key swing states, was the MEASURABLE difference.
You can't know how Comey's activity actually impacted the vote. There will always be racial (social) tensions to be exploited by bad actors. However, the actual process of voting.....that's the entire game! It's why our political opponents spend so much time, energy, and resources on finding ways to limit black and minority access, specifically.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
31. I'm right beside you
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:10 PM
Dec 2018

When it comes to fighting against those attempts by the enemy to stop people of color voting.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
25. I agree. We all need to stop blaming each other for Trump becoming President.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 10:52 AM
Dec 2018

Creating literal barriers for African Americans to even be able to vote is done in the full light of day all of the time in this nation. It is conscious, it is racist, and it is overtly partisan. And the effects of that on elections is many many times more toxic to democracy than any disinformation campaigns waged to discourage voting by any group.

I hope we can all agree to stop with circular firing squads attacking the most loyal Democratic voters for Republican "victories". It angered me also when Sanders supporters have been blamed here in the past for the election day results in 2016. It didn't matter that it was shown that Sanders supporters were more loyal to Clinton on election day than Clinton supporters had been to Obama on election day 2008. There will always be some PUMA (Party Unity My Ass) types, there will always be some BOB (Bernie or Bust) type voters in a nation of over 300 million. That is not where the real action is happening. As a whole African Americans are by far the most loyal constituency the Democratic Party has. And self identified progressive voters rank extremely high by that matrix also.

We have to support each other, and defend each other, and win together.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
27. I hope we can all agree to stop with circular firing squads attacking the most loyal Democratic ....
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:05 AM
Dec 2018
I hope we can all agree to stop with circular firing squads attacking the most loyal Democratic voters for Republican "victories".

Tom, Tom, Tom.......

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
28. russian bots concentrated social media attacks AND fake news
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 11:33 AM
Dec 2018

to dissuade not only black voters but white voters on the liberal end to stay home by offering up dissension (or vote 3rd party). This now pretty much a known FACT for 2016 election now. The issue is exactly how many did in fact stay home. If you look at trump margin of victory in one county in each of the 3 states of Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania, a TOTAL OF just 75,000 votes is the difference between a president tump and a president Hillary and the influence factor definitely came into play. Look at votes that Jill Stein and ZGary Johnson got in those 3 states....AND the number voters who did not vote


https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/308353-trump-won-by-smaller-margin-than-stein-votes-in-all-three

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
30. All good points, to be sure.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:07 PM
Dec 2018

The links posted show how hundreds of thousands were blocked from accessing the ballot. In Wisconsin, alone, more than 200,00 (mostly black and poor whites) were removed from the voting rolls. tRump only won the state by just over 22,000.
There will always be racial tensions to exploit (George Wallace us vs them populism), misinformation to spread (Hello, Faux News!), October surprises (Thanks, Comey!), and random idiots used by bad actors (Hello, Jill Stein!). The real prize has always been in restricting access to the ballot. Shaving a few thousand votes is small potatoes, bob. They successfully restricted millions of people from even voting! Measurably!

Check it! https://thinkprogress.org/states-purged-16-million-voters-from-the-rolls-before-the-2016-election-1c5688dcaad7/

We can not take our eyes off the ball. We need to look those Republicons in the face and say," I Know Your Game". Meet them and beat them.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,912 posts)
36. When con artists swindle people with false assertions, our legal system knows where to fix blame
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:41 PM
Dec 2018

The con artists get shut down and imprisoned. Some of those swindled may have been overly gullible, a dangerous state of being in this world, but the criminals are the swindlers.

The vast majority of African Americans, the vast majority of progressive voters, and the vast majority of all the Democratic target groups of voters that Russian propaganda efforts sought to manipulate saw through their gambit and turned out to vote for Hillary. That is all that can be asked of any demographic group. We reasonably ask of our government to move aggressively to counter con artists of every stripe. Mitch Mitchell stood in the way of our government widely exposing and firmly condemning Russian efforts to thwart our Democracy prior to the 2016 elections. Our government as a result let down America's voters at a critical juncture.

And Republicans nationwide consciously condone and pursue efforts to disenfranchise tens of millions of voters. Without that Russia's efforts on behalf of Trump would have been a candle snuffed by a hurricane.

 

Dream Girl

(5,111 posts)
29. Why couldn't it be both? But for suppressed turnout in Philly and Michigan and possibly
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:03 PM
Dec 2018

Florida Clinton would have won. The margin in those states was small. I don’t think voter suppression had much to do with her losing those states. I was there and remember wat was being said about Hillary criminalizing blackness and Clinton’s anti-black policies during his presidency. I think it absolutely had an impact on those states she lost by those tiny margins.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
32. Sure...
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:21 PM
Dec 2018

We must tackle misinformation, to be sure. We must be sure to inform the ill or partially informed (I mean why would one choose to blame a first lady for her husband's policy and not the co-sponsor ,Joe Biden, or a person that actually voted for the same policy ,Bernie Sanders...right?).
Here's the thing, though.... there will always be tensions to exploit, folks manipulated by bad actors, last minute campaign surprises, and floods of misinformation. You're talking about thousands, Dream Girl. I'm talking about millions. Millions of American citizens were purged from voting rolls. Check some of the links in my responses. Take a few minutes and search it out at your leisure. The gutting of the Voting Right's Act has been devastating. Restricting access to the ballot, that's the game of our political opponents. And it is working.
Look at the state of Wisconsin. More than 200,000 people were purged from the voting rolls. tRump won that state by just over 22,000. That's what I'm talking about, Dream Girl.
Propaganda is going to be around. It's going to touch who it will. But our fundamental right to vote.....that's the prize.

 

Dream Girl

(5,111 posts)
44. I agree & am well aware of the vile actions involved with voter suppression. However, we need to be
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 01:51 PM
Dec 2018

aware and vigilant of misinformation as well. The Russians did everything they could to suppress our vote, just in a different way, consider it a two pronged attack. There was quite a lot of Hillary hate among some AA and I am sure it was Russian-fueled.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
45. You are right.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 02:31 PM
Dec 2018

We need to meet them on all fields and in all contests.
Yes we must combat misinformation with good, easily accessible information. We must show up within the community. But none of that matters if your vote isn't even counted or if you're not even given the chance to vote because your name has been purged from the voting list. Millions.

BumRushDaShow

(128,804 posts)
61. "But for suppressed turnout in Philly"
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 09:21 PM
Dec 2018

There wasn't any suppressed turnout here in Philly. There was extra turnout in the opposite corner of the state in Erie, a reliably blue area, that went red for the first time in decades.

PHILADELPHIA TOTAL TURNOUT
2000 total turnout Presidential general election - 561,180
2004 total turnout Presidential general election - 674,069
2008 total turnout Presidential general election - 717,329
2012 total turnout Presidential general election - 690,327
2016 total turnout Presidential general election - 707,631

The one major dynamic here in Philly was the rise of Jill Stein, where she almost tripled her vote count here (to almost 7000) vs the previous Presidential where she only garnered around 2000 votes.

As a comparison, we had a record turnout in the midterms!

2018 total turnout midterm general election - (gubernatorial total) 554,175

vs

2014 total turnout midterm general election - (gubernatorial total) 378,807

better

(884 posts)
34. I don't think the issue here is really blame, but rather susceptibility and targeted status.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:25 PM
Dec 2018

Now let me preface this by saying that I can only react to the parts of this story of which I am presently aware, so my observations are in no way definitive. But from what I've seen of this story over the last day, it seems to me that the point of value to us is that POC were one of the groups targeted by a very sophisticated disinformation campaign.

There is obviously profound truth to the idea that voter suppression is arguably the single most prevalent culprit in the way the 2016 election turned out, and I share the concern about any minimization of this fact. Yet at the same time, such a sophisticated targeted disinformation campaign is not entirely unrelated to voter suppression. It is, arguably, just yet another means to the same end.

But it is also more than just that, because it further obscures accurate observation of the depth of the impacts of voter suppression. The fewer people that show up at an under-resourced and over-restricted polling place, the less obvious the suppressive effects of that under-resourcing and over-restricting will be. Whether the apathy/disgust responsible for keeping people from even trying to vote was the result of (for example) the focus on the "super-predators" remarks aimed at undermining the Party's candidate or of the focus on the primary process aimed at undermining the Party itself is somewhat irrelevant. The result was the same, and it hurt all of us. Not all of us on either side of the Bernie/Hillary divide were sucked in, but all of us were targeted, in different ways designed to influence us on our own inflection points.

I don't want to see anything supplant our opposition to the rampant evil of voter suppression, but I am concerned that we not allow misguided application of "blame" by some to prevent us from also adequately studying and countering this new (*edit* or rather, newly expanded and much more sophisticated) front in that fight.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
41. I'm sorry , I must have missed your post. I would have answered sooner.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 01:20 PM
Dec 2018
There is obviously profound truth to the idea that voter suppression is arguably the single most prevalent culprit in the way the 2016 election turned out, and I share the concern about any minimization of this fact.

You are absolutely right, about everything. It is important the flush out all Russian (and any American who worked with them) activities towards our election process. This can not be understated. However, I feel that this has been the only story, really. I haven't heard much about the very real impact of voting suppression, hence my frustration (and the rather salty tone of the OP).

Millions....MILLIONS!!!! Millions of my fellow Americans were booted from voting lists across the country. How many times, I ask, has this issue been lifted as a reason for the downturn in voter turnout? What IS usually lifted as the reason(s) instead? A bunch of crap that's really more about whomever is giving the opinion (because that's what it is, usually). Voter suppression just isn't as sexy as Russian clownery, 1037 panels of female tRump supporters, and Comey's "conscience". But it is damned effective.

Lol! Not at you, better. At the media, in particular.






better

(884 posts)
47. I definitely get where you are coming from.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 03:16 PM
Dec 2018

While I have seen quite a lot of coverage and discussion of voter suppression, I do agree that it still doesn't get anywhere near the level of scrutiny that it should. In fairness though, there is the element of passing laws governing elections being within the lawful powers of state legislatures. Obviously, though, I don't mean to imply that the way those lawful powers are being abused is not a huge problem, which of course it is.

I think it's just that on some fundamental level, it's easier to make the case against the Russian meddling, in that covert interference in our elections is clearly an explicitly unlawful activity. At least on paper, there's no ambiguity in "collusion with foreign manipulation of national policy is bad". People can argue that states have the right to govern the election process whether we like the way they do it or not. You can't argue that it's legal to act as an unregistered foreign agent, because it quite simply just is not.

Unfortunately, before we are going to be able to make much headway at getting near-universal condemnation of the voter suppression we have been seeing, I think we are first going to have to overcome the tribalism and intellectual laziness that permit people to buy into the red herrings and other logical fallacies that are so often used to manipulate people.

I really do think that intellectual laziness is at the heart of most of the problems we face, voter suppression included. So many only glance at the surface, without digging deep enough to recognize that the surface is a facade, let alone why that facade was created in the first place. We see the examples all over the place.

Take for example, "whites are more likely to be killed by police than blacks". In that particular case, the statistics cited do in fact show a larger number of whites than blacks killed by police. What that bullshit talking point intentionally omits, and that the intellectually lazy do not even notice, however, is that likelihood is a fraction, and they've omitted the denominator, which is the size of the white/black populations from within which we are evaluating the number of people killed by police.

If one is too intellectually lazy to observe that critical detail, the talking point appears to justifiably diminish the concerns of the BLM movement. But look just a little bit deeper and the whole argument falls apart.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
49. Hmmmm.... yup! I like it!
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 03:41 PM
Dec 2018

Again, all great points! What can I say, we live in a culture that isn't really interested in getting into the "weeds" of actual problem solving. Digging deeper....I wish I could repost this comment, everywhere. It's very thoughtful and adds so much to the conversation. Thank you, better.

You're absolutely correct there being an "intellectual laziness" problem. The way we disseminate information, in bite sized sexy chunks, may be a part of the problem, too. In order to accommodate our ever shrinking attention spans (and to compete in ways that are cheap and beneath the noble service of investigative journalism), sacrifices have been made. Trust and Accuracy have been sacrificed on the alter of "breaking" and "money bosses".

I've been up a really long time and it's starting to show in my typing. Your excellent post deserved better. You see what I did? Lol!

better

(884 posts)
50. All good, and thanks for the intellectual conversation!
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 04:03 PM
Dec 2018

And yes, I do see what you did there! I long ago decided that my purpose on earth is to make things better.
And perhaps not entirely coincidentally, my initial and last name are B. Etter, so it fits!

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
54. "Make things better." What a beautiful way of being!
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 04:40 PM
Dec 2018

I love your philosophy.



I'm writing this on my family's chalk board for the week, "Better to be better. Bless and 'cuss' less"!

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,403 posts)
35. The focus
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:27 PM
Dec 2018

should be on the fact that Russia was actively meddling in our elections and the Trump Campaign- or elements thereof- actively colluded with them in their meddling (which is looking more and more likely). Short of evidence of actual vote-flipping, it's difficult to determine with any kind of accuracy what kind of effect, if any, the Russian meddling had *on* the election but it's bad enough if it turns out that not only were they meddling (and that's been pretty firmly established at this point), but also if one of the campaigns was participating in it as well. I personally blame the Media more than anything for influencing people's views and opinions about the election, largely failing to vet Trump while exaggerating- to a ridiculous degree- the "scandal" over Hillary's e-mail server and decades of smears. And I blame James Comey for his unprofessional conduct regarding the Hillary e-mail server investigation.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
37. I agree with this, Proud Liberal Dem!
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:53 PM
Dec 2018

You're correct on every point. I'll only add that all those factors are tougher to measure as far as actual/practical voting impact. We need to tackle each issue raised in your post but we must focus on restoring access to the ballot! Just look at the shenanigans going on in all the newly flipped state houses around the country. Even though more than 60% of all Florida's voters voted to restore the rights of felons, the GOP is working hard to NOT implement the will of the people.
Millions....MILLIONS of folks have been purged from the rolls since 2014. We can not play the game focused on thousands when they(our political opponents) are playing for millions.



Proud Liberal Dem

(24,403 posts)
38. I definitely agree on that as well
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 12:55 PM
Dec 2018

Voter suppression is a massive problem that needs to be forcefully addressed

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
40. I'm not really inclined to give the Russians a free pass
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 01:09 PM
Dec 2018

On anything.

They didn't spend Billions buying the election just for fun, and they know precisely what our demographics and voting patterns are.

I don't believe any racial group has any special immunity from Russia influence.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
51. Okay, I'll bite.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 04:05 PM
Dec 2018

Show me where I stated that Russia should get a pass on anything. Or, that I believe any group to be immune from their dastardly influence.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
58. There's no bait or hook.
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 05:26 PM
Dec 2018

It's just my statement that I'm not inclined to look for reasons to cut Russia some slack.

In my opinion, Russia used the 1st amendment against us. They used our media to spread propaganda design to hurt Clinton and help Trump. No one was immune from that. Black folks were impacted. White folks were impacted.

It's probably an impossible thing to measure how much any particular individual was influenced, let alone extrapolate that to their particular group. Take advertising... advertising influences EVERYONE. Yet the vast vast majority of people are insistent that they aren't impacted, but these large corporations are spending hundreds of billions to see their logo on TV just for ego purposes.

All that said. Did some people stay home because of the Russia media influence? Of course they did. But we'll never know who and how many.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
59. That's good news, because I am NO fish! LOL!
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 06:01 PM
Dec 2018

My OP doesn't argue against holding Russia (and those that assisted in its operations) accountable. It doesn't argue that anyone is more or less inclined to believe in false information. I haven't seen anyone ask you to give them a pass, either. I AM saying that the real theft of votes ....the pure black and white of it all, occurred at the state and local levels. I'm not talking about a few votes in this district or that one.....I'm talking millions of votes across the country.
I've tried to make my positions as clear as possible. Take a moment and click on the links. If I seem exasperated, it's because I feel like we've been here before. It's all about the vote, fescuerescue. I've brought receipts. Check the links throughout the thread.

Imagine this: It's proven that in the state of WI, Russia caused 25,000 voters to stay home. Well, tDump olny won WI by a bit over 22,000 votes. That's terrible, right? Now, consider the fact that in plain sight, the GOP in WI purged 200,000 legal (mostly black, brown, poor) voters from the rolls.
This is the kind of game our political opponents are playing. They have been working, systematically and diligently, to streamline the voting rolls ever since the gutting of the Voting Rights Act. While we're worrying about how someone makes us feel, they are working out ways to better steal. And they've gotten very good at it.


They really did purge 200,000 registered WI voters.
https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsins-voter-id-law-suppressed-200000-votes-trump-won-by-23000/

eleny

(46,166 posts)
60. This is on my nerves since yesterday
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 08:26 PM
Dec 2018

Who buys into this stuff?! It's the gutting of the Voting Rights Act and all the subsequent suppression. You know what happened. Anyhow, I'm so glad to see this pushback. Thank you for laying it all out.

Anon-C

(3,430 posts)
55. You are 100% right. I assumed it wa a given that most DUers would understand that attempts by Russia
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 04:54 PM
Dec 2018

...to suppress the vote of AAs, via Facebook primarily, pale compared to the other methods used to stop the exercise and counting of our votes.

I mean who in their right mind can blame black people for the election of Donald Trump?

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
62. 538 did some great tweets on this...
Tue Dec 18, 2018, 09:25 PM
Dec 2018

Black turnout was still very good, and any decline not related to no Obama, was likely deliberate voter suppression.

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