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Sat Jan 12, 2019, 01:02 PM

If you are forced to work without pay, you are a slave.

I would fucking quit before I did that. First I would call in sick and then get my family doctor to protect me for as long as possible.

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Reply If you are forced to work without pay, you are a slave. (Original post)
shockey80 Jan 2019 OP
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #1
shockey80 Jan 2019 #3
Igel Jan 2019 #5
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #7
shockey80 Jan 2019 #9
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #11
mucifer Jan 2019 #28
HipChick Jan 2019 #13
brooklynite Jan 2019 #18
demigoddess Jan 2019 #26
Codeine Jan 2019 #41
Codeine Jan 2019 #2
Solly Mack Jan 2019 #4
WhiskeyGrinder Jan 2019 #6
Mariana Jan 2019 #8
shockey80 Jan 2019 #12
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #14
Codeine Jan 2019 #42
cwydro Jan 2019 #56
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #16
Codeine Jan 2019 #43
cwydro Jan 2019 #10
sarisataka Jan 2019 #15
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #17
shockey80 Jan 2019 #19
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #22
Codeine Jan 2019 #45
TheFarseer Jan 2019 #20
Ms. Toad Jan 2019 #21
shockey80 Jan 2019 #23
Ms. Toad Jan 2019 #30
Codeine Jan 2019 #48
MineralMan Jan 2019 #24
shockey80 Jan 2019 #25
MineralMan Jan 2019 #27
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #29
Ms. Toad Jan 2019 #31
SaschaHM Jan 2019 #33
MineralMan Jan 2019 #32
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #34
MineralMan Jan 2019 #36
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #39
MineralMan Jan 2019 #46
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #51
MineralMan Jan 2019 #52
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #57
MineralMan Jan 2019 #58
EffieBlack Jan 2019 #59
Nictuku Jan 2019 #35
MineralMan Jan 2019 #37
Nictuku Jan 2019 #38
MineralMan Jan 2019 #40
Nictuku Jan 2019 #44
MineralMan Jan 2019 #47
Nictuku Jan 2019 #49
JI7 Jan 2019 #50
rsdsharp Jan 2019 #53
fescuerescue Jan 2019 #54
dameatball Jan 2019 #55

Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 01:11 PM

1. Not really, but I get your point.

No one is being forced to work without pay. They can quit and seek a paying job - certainly not a good or fair option, but an option, nonetheless. They're not property, subject to beatings or whatever other treatment their owners choose to impose on them. They can come and go as they please, marry whom they want, their children aren't being sold away from them, they're not being forced to have sex with their owners and bear their children or stand by helplessly while their wives and daughters are.

This is a terrible, cruel situation for government workers. But it is NOT slavery, which is far more than working without pay.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #1)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 01:17 PM

3. OK, It's slavery lite.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:08 PM

5. I worked yesterday morning.

I haven't been paid for it.

I'm a slave?

In fact, I won't be paid for that on my next payday, 1/20. I'll be paid for that on 2/5. So I go 25 days from when I work to when I get paid. How unjust. Okay, I'm a slave "lite."

That's how it is. Consider a farmer. Seeds go in the ground in March. It's 3 months later and the corn's about ripe. Now it's late July--and not only has he worked for three months, but he had to use money he was responsible for to buy the seed corn, equipment, fertilizer, etc.. Maybe he'll sell some to the fresh-corn market. Then he'll get paid in August. Or perhaps he'll let the corn dry and sell it for fodder. Then he'll see the stuff in Guaust and get paid anywhere from September till December.

Still misses the point of slavery. I'm not a slave--except in some metaphorical sense that gets rid of much of the actual degradation and moral depravity of slavery in order to keep the symbol, the word 'slave'. And neither's the farmer.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:29 PM

7. No, it's not

It's a hardship. But it's not slavery - lite or otherwise. Attempts to equate temporary financial hardships to the most egregious, degrading and tragic institution this country had imposed on humans is ahistorical and insulting.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #7)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:40 PM

9. I will not take it back.

I believe it is a form of slavery. Someone is completely putting your life , your children lives in jeopardy and you have to sit back and take it right up your ass. Yes , you can quit but they may not save you. Someone has taken control of your life, that's the truth.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:45 PM

11. Then you are making a conscious choice to appear ill-informed and offensive

Intelligent people prefer not to do that - at least not intentionally.

So be it.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #11)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:37 PM

28. I totally agree. Another small point is they will be paid. Congress approved it.

The OP is offensive

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:47 PM

13. Very offensive, and worst degrading acts performed on human beings

does not equal to financial hardship..

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:57 PM

18. A slave works for no pay and has no choice in the work

The fact that a Federal worker CAN walk away and take work elsewhere destroys your analogy.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:30 PM

26. I agree with you. Don't take it back. It is a form of slavery and one that trump likes.

A slave owner would have to pay for clothing and food. trump likes people who work for tiny wages and where he does not have to pay for clothing and food. Starving is good for you, don't you know??

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #9)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:28 PM

41. Don't double down, dude. nt

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 01:15 PM

2. They'll be paid later,

so comparing it to slavery is at best a stretch and honestly a bit offensive.

That said, the situation is obviously some bullshit.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 01:23 PM

4. Not even close. It's bad and it can get worse but it's not slavery.

My husband is currently working without pay as an "essential" employee. It sucks right now but jobs with the kind of money and benefits he makes & gets aren't all that easy to find.

Some will quit but most won't. All that I know - and that's quite a few - are pissed at Trump.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:10 PM

6. You can do better than this.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:35 PM

8. None of the federal employees are being forced to work.

Strictly speaking, they are not. They can quit. They can walk away. No one is going to capture them, imprison them, beat them, rape them, sell them, or forcibly separate them from their families for refusing to work.

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Response to Mariana (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:47 PM

12. I am tired of Americans being sheep.

I used to be a federal worker. If they told me I had to work without pay I would have gone nuts on them. No fucking way. What the American people are putting up with is complete bullshit. All federal workers should break the law and walk the fuck out. STRIKE!

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:50 PM

14. The fact that you feel you had the option to "go nuts on them" highlights

the ignorance of your entire premise.

But for some reason, you have chosen to double down on your offensive, clueless argument, despite the pretty unanimous, overwhelming pushback you're getting.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:29 PM

42. Jesus fucking Christ.

Big keyboard warrior up in here.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #42)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 05:05 PM

56. I know, right?

Tough guy. No doubt he’d be leading the strikes.

Oh wait, can a slave strike???

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Response to Mariana (Reply #8)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:53 PM

16. Seems that some people have bought the lie that slavery was based on economic exploitation

and not based on turning people into literal property.

Ignorance abounds in the world, but I'd expect better on DU - especially once this fact is pointed out to them.

Apparently, I overestimated.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:31 PM

43. Never underestimate the ability to be

deliberately clueless, even here.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:44 PM

10. Ridiculous comparison and deeply offensive.

Don’t compare this asinine shutdown with the abhorrent, horrifying institution of slavery.

There is simply no comparison.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:52 PM

15. Slavery has nothing

To do with compensation for work. It solely rests on making a person the property of another.

Describing Federal workers as slaves is gross overstatement and belittling the millions around the world who suffer enslavement today.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #15)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:54 PM

17. Exactly

I can't even believe this needs to be explained to a Democrat.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 02:59 PM

19. You will not change my mind.

If you work without pay you are slave.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:12 PM

22. I'll try one more time ...

The hallmark of slavery is not lack of compensation for work, but being held as property. A person can be a slave without doing any work. Some people work for no compensation, but are not slaves.

My great grandfather was born a slave and remained so his entire life, although he performed no work - paid or otherwise - as an infant and after he became to old and infirm to go to the fields.

He and my other ancestors were not slaves because they worked without pay. They worked without pay because they were slaves. And they remain slaves whether they worked or not.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:35 PM

45. But they're going to be paid.

They aren’t slaves; they’re free to go where they wish, quit if they desire, and most importantly they cannot be bought and sold like an IKEA bookshelf.

Ferfuxsake.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:01 PM

20. No not true

Under Obamacare, doctors might not get reimbursed how they want to or as much as they want. Like Ben Shapiro says, that’s slavery. Yes he actually said that.

All kidding aside, it does suck.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:08 PM

21. If you are actually forced to work without pay - you might get to slavery light (e.g. imprisonment).

BUT that is not what is happening here.

No federal employee is being forced to work without pay. Period.

Every single federal employee could walk off the job today, without direct consquence to life and limb. There may be contractual (and financial) consequences for walking off without proper notice (unless you are not an at-will employee). BUT the federal government is not going to chase you with hounds and guns, throw chains around you and drag you behind a car, a noose around your neck and string you up in a tree, or worse, for walking off off the job. Those (or era-specific equivalents thereof) are not only things that all happened to slaves who walked off the "job" - but the perpetrators of such violence were legally entitled to inflict such atrocities because slaves were (legally) nothing more than property.

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #21)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:14 PM

23. There are different forms of slavery.

Every one here is talking about southern slavery of blacks. This is different. This is economic slavery. They are still controlling your life.
You are still a slave. The truth hurts.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:48 PM

30. As numerous people have told you, that is extremely insulting

to individuals whose relatives were (legally) property.

Economic hardship is NOT slavery.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:36 PM

48. You're being fucking ridiculous.

The truth hurts indeed, sir.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:16 PM

24. When an employer tells you, "Sorry. I can't pay you this month,"

it's time to start looking for a new job. Businesses that can't make payroll will soon be bankrupt. The answer to that statement should always be, "Sorry, then I can't work for you. I work for my paycheck. If you don't pay me, I don't work for you. It's that simple."

As someone who has been working freelance for almost 50 years, I've heard that crap from people I've delivered my work product a number of times. It goes something like this: "Say, I'm still waiting for a check from one of my clients, so I can't pay you for that article I published." That's what they always say. I always say this:

"Look. You gave me an assignment. You liked my work. You published it. Pay me as we agreed. Now! If you don't, I will not only not produce work for you in the future, but I will also inform my network of others who write for a living and let them know to be careful about working for you."

I always got paid right away. There is no excuse for not paying someone for work they have done for you. No excuse at all. Workers contract with employers. They work. The employer pays. Failure to pay results in no further work. It is a very simple equation, but one that workers have to stick to. Every last freaking time.

The federal employees who are not getting checks for a previous pay period should simply not show up until they do. That's guaranteed to get people's attention. If all TSA workers walked off, along with the air traffic controllers, and every other federal employee who is not being paid for actual work, it would be the headline in every news outlet.

Pay up, Feds! Pay up, or we don't work. That's called a "Job Action." If threatened with being fired, you simply say, "Fired? From a job where I don't get paid? Really?" There are no replacement workers. Air traffic controllers require extensive training. TSA agents require training, too. If everyone walks, there's nobody to replace them and it all shuts down. That's the power of labor.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:26 PM

25. Thank you.

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Response to shockey80 (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:31 PM

27. I've been my own boss most of my adult life.

I create products by writing. I sell them to others. If they don't pay me, they're screwed if they want more of what I produce.

My invoices all say: "Payable on receipt." I mean it. A few have tried to put me off for 30, 60, 90 days, or even indefinitely. I have a brief conversation with them about that, and I either get paid immediately or they get nothing more from me and I tell everyone I know that they didn't pay me.

I do high quality work. But I work based on an agreement that I write; they pay. Always. Except for writing I do on my own account, like here on DU.

No pay? No freaking work! Pay up!

I have always gotten paid right away after telling someone that. There are no acceptable excuses.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:44 PM

29. What does this have to do with federal government employees being furloughed?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:50 PM

31. Or to the absurd allegation that furloughed employees are slaves. n/t

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:54 PM

33. Not a damn thing.

Just the ill informed trying to tap into a history and vocabulary to prove their point. It's the same edginess that lies behind that equally offensive Yoko Ono/John Lennin quote that Bette Midler got flamed for using. There are multiple ways to describe the situation occurring to furloughed workers atm. Slavery is not one of them.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 03:53 PM

32. Uh...everything.

No pay; No work. That's the basic employment contract in four words.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #32)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:09 PM

34. I assume, then, you also believe in No work No pay

And since most of the employees affected by the shutdown are on furlough - i.e., not permitted to go to work - you're fine with them not being paid for the time government is closed?

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #34)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:16 PM

36. I'm not talking about furloughed workers. I'm talking about workers

who are working but not being paid. I thought I was clear about that.

The two situations are very different.

Think about it.

My argument is separate from the claim about slavery. It's not slavery at all. That's a very different and absolutely immoral thing.

That's why I started a new thread:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211662055

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #36)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:22 PM

39. I know exactly what you were talking about

Hence my question. If you are so adamant about ™No pay, no work" (even though the employees who are working have been promised they'll be paid), are you as adamant that "No work, no pay" should be applied to workers who AREN'T working and therefor, they should not be paid for the time they provided no service?

However, I'm still not clear what your call for federal employees to adopt your "no pay no work" demand has to do with this since the employees will eventually be paid...

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #39)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:35 PM

46. They will be paid if Congress passes a measure to pay them and the

President signs it. So far, that measure does not exist. There is no assurance that people will be paid, and I don't trust Donald Trump for one minute to sign such a bill if his petty project doesn't get funded.

The trust between our government and the governed is a fragile thing, and right now it's threatened severely. If you think Donald Trump is worried about workers who are working without a paycheck, you are wrong. He doesn't care. Not one bit. He has failed to pay so many people who have worked for him in the past that it's clear that he thinks it's optional.

A message needs to be sent. Right now, there are two groups of people who are working without pay who can send that message. They are the TSA and the Air Traffic Controllers. It's not an enormous number of workers. A work stoppage by those two groups would bring the US economy to an abrupt halt. The impact would be enormous and eminently obvious. The power to do that is in their hands.

Just think about what such a Job Action would do. Within one day, the results would be crystal clear to everyone. It would be the story of the year. One day.

That's the power of Labor. I doubt such a thing will happen, frankly. But, if it did, it would send a shockwave through the economy that would never be forgotten. Never.

One day. A week? Even I can't imagine the result of that.

I think they should do it. They probably won't, though.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #46)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:41 PM

51. Congress already passed a bill guaranteeing their pay

And maybe, instead of sitting at your computer talking smack and telling these folks how they should risk their livelihoods in order to make the point you think they should make, you can organize some protests that will shut down the economy and will show them that you have their backs.

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #51)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:46 PM

52. I can't organize anything that would have any impact.

I'm outside of the system.

Labor can do things. I cannot. Congress can do things. I cannot. Trump can do things. He WILL not. He can stop everything but a Job Action. Nothing can stop that.

Right now, Labor has the power, if it wants to use it. I don't think it will, but the power is there.

As for your telling me to stop "talking smack," I'll ignore that insult.

Still, I wouldn't book any flights for the next week or two.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #52)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 05:11 PM

57. In other words, it's someone else's responsibility

But I'm sure those "someone elses" appreciate advice from the folks sitting on the sidelines telling them what to do...

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Response to EffieBlack (Reply #57)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 05:30 PM

58. We're both sitting in front of a computer or other device this afternoon,

aren't we?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #58)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 05:37 PM

59. Yes, we are

The difference is that I'm not sitting at my computer second-guessing people who are going through a struggle I don't have to deal with and have made choices I don't have to make about situations I'm not in, I'm not demanding that they take action I'm not willing to take and I'm not suggesting they're weak or misguided because they're not doing what I think they should do.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:16 PM

35. What if you had only 1 year to go to make 20 years and access retirement funds without penalty?

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Response to Nictuku (Reply #35)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:18 PM

37. I'd have to consider that, of course.

Sadly, many workers have discovered that their retirement agreements no longer exist. What of them?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #37)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:21 PM

38. We need to elect leaders who protect retirement contracts (for all workers)

... This is a conversation that I have not heard many politicians discussing, but every year more and more pension funds are raided. (Bain Capital anyone?)

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Response to Nictuku (Reply #38)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:27 PM

40. Of course. That's a different issue, though.

Congress could pass and the President sign a bill that eliminated all federal retirement programs, retroactively. It could absolutely do that. Think about it.

It could also eliminate all pension protection systems funded by the government.

It would be very unpopular to do that, but it is certainly possible, and I guarantee that there are people in Congress and in the White House who would gladly do so.

Our entire system is based on trust. So is our system of labor and compensation for that labor. We work, trusting that we will be paid for that work as we agreed. When that trust is violated, the system is broken. At some point, it can be broken beyond repair.

The labor force has one powerful option. That option is to withhold its work. It is the only option available when pay is not forthcoming for work performed. It is an awesome power.

We have forgotten that, it seems. We should remember that we have that power.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #40)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:32 PM

44. If they did that, then why would anyone ever work for the Government?

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Response to Nictuku (Reply #44)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:36 PM

47. That is a very, very good question.

Perhaps it should be tested.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #47)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:37 PM

49. That is also a big problem with the shutdown

If Federal workers are constantly used as pawns, the workforce will diminish.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:38 PM

50. they have the choice to leave that job and work somewhere else

 

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:46 PM

53. Most people have the option to quit, so it's not slavery.

Enlisted personnel in the Coast Guard, however, can't quit. They are required to work for free, currently, during the term of their enlistment. That is slavery, or the next thing to it.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:50 PM

54. Yea it sucks

I don't think that slaves could use doctor notes though.

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Response to shockey80 (Original post)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 04:57 PM

55. Some things strike me as I read these posts.

1. We have a lot of intelligent but really stubborn people on DU that will go to almost any end to win an argument. That's just an opinion I have formed and it is not just due to this particular OP.

2. Walking away and finding another job is not always so easy, for various reasons. What do you say to a potential employer during a job interview when they ask the inevitable question: "Since you have several years experience in your previous position and the current shutdown is the main reason you want to work for my company, why should I go to the expense of possible additional interviews, background checks, checking your references and then training you if necessary, when you may well return to your previous job at any time?" Anyone that thinks the employer will not consider that scenario is not being realistic, unless the job is something that is generally temporary anyway.


3. People affected by this shutdown have the right to make their own decisions on how they deal with it without being called sheep or being judged by others who are not even directly affected.


4. and F the GOPers. I just thought I would throw that in there.... Hang together or hang separately.

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