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Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:27 AM

 

Here's what will happen on DU when the Mueller report is released


Whenever it is available, whatever it says, and whatever might be redacted, its failure to include your pet theory will only mean one thing - that it was rigged, a “whitewash”, etc.. The “really good stuff” is in the redacted part. They never interviewed some person who has inside knowledge of the whole thing. They didn’t inspect the voting machines in Kalamazoo...

Because a failure to include your pet theory could not be that it was out of scope, or just plain didn’t happen that way.

One of the most irritating things in my work is when the facts refuse to cooperate with my argument. I start out with a killer argument, and by the time I’m drilling down into the details, the damned facts turn on me and engage in mutiny!

But with the Mueller report - which will in fact lay out a cavalcade of corruption and disregard of the law - you don’t have to blame the facts for betraying you. Instead, you can blame the people. Someone on Mueller’s staff perhaps, or a successful confederacy of perjurers, will be responsible for the fix. Also, a “whistleblower” will be dug up - some person who saw it all and will speak to your group about it for a reasonable fee.

It will all be clear to you “what really happened.” Not only that, but you’ll find out that DU is populated by paid shills who are all here to aid in the cover up by expressing skepticism about the unprovable facts you know to be true.

It will be important to make sure to get every Democratic candidate on the record about your pet theory. If they are also shills for TPTB, you’ll then come to realize the whole system is rigged, and that you should instead not support any Democratic candidate. Instead, you should stay on DU in order to fight the trolls and “official conspiracy theorists” get others to realize how they’ve been deceived again by “The Official Story”.

All of which will be a wonderful distraction from the actual cavalcade of corruption and criminality which the report will actually disclose.

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Reply Here's what will happen on DU when the Mueller report is released (Original post)
jberryhill Mar 2019 OP
PJMcK Mar 2019 #1
DownriverDem Mar 2019 #36
onenote Mar 2019 #71
True Dough Mar 2019 #2
manor321 Mar 2019 #3
quickesst Mar 2019 #4
watoos Mar 2019 #5
jberryhill Mar 2019 #14
PTWB Mar 2019 #16
Brawndo Mar 2019 #24
PTWB Mar 2019 #25
Brawndo Mar 2019 #28
onenote Mar 2019 #72
MadDAsHell Mar 2019 #85
planetc Mar 2019 #6
watoos Mar 2019 #10
DonViejo Mar 2019 #7
cwydro Mar 2019 #8
rusty fender Mar 2019 #69
MaryMagdaline Mar 2019 #9
watoos Mar 2019 #11
MaryMagdaline Mar 2019 #44
robbob Mar 2019 #48
MaryMagdaline Mar 2019 #49
smirkymonkey Mar 2019 #58
Zoonart Mar 2019 #12
COLGATE4 Mar 2019 #13
uponit7771 Mar 2019 #15
Autumn Mar 2019 #17
Hugin Mar 2019 #18
Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2019 #27
True Dough Mar 2019 #30
UniteFightBack Mar 2019 #19
Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2019 #20
True Blue American Mar 2019 #21
PatrickforO Mar 2019 #35
emulatorloo Mar 2019 #37
DinahMoeHum Mar 2019 #22
FailureToCommunicate Mar 2019 #23
jberryhill Mar 2019 #32
PJMcK Mar 2019 #43
FailureToCommunicate Mar 2019 #46
N_E_1 for Tennis Mar 2019 #56
FailureToCommunicate Mar 2019 #47
Dem2 Mar 2019 #26
lamp_shade Mar 2019 #29
yuiyoshida Mar 2019 #31
zaj Mar 2019 #33
jberryhill Mar 2019 #53
PatrickforO Mar 2019 #34
pnwmom Mar 2019 #38
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #40
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #39
ProfessorGAC Mar 2019 #41
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #42
H2O Man Mar 2019 #51
jberryhill Mar 2019 #64
ProfessorGAC Mar 2019 #89
Hoyt Mar 2019 #45
Iggo Mar 2019 #50
jberryhill Mar 2019 #55
Iggo Mar 2019 #63
jberryhill Mar 2019 #65
Iggo Mar 2019 #67
Joe941 Mar 2019 #52
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #57
mercuryblues Mar 2019 #54
FakeNoose Mar 2019 #59
Eliot Rosewater Mar 2019 #76
FakeNoose Mar 2019 #79
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #60
Iggo Mar 2019 #66
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #68
jberryhill Mar 2019 #84
onenote Mar 2019 #73
The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2019 #75
onenote Mar 2019 #80
forklift Mar 2019 #61
Hekate Mar 2019 #62
GulfCoast66 Mar 2019 #70
onenote Mar 2019 #74
guillaumeb Mar 2019 #77
JustABozoOnThisBus Mar 2019 #78
Hermit-The-Prog Mar 2019 #81
Codeine Mar 2019 #82
jberryhill Mar 2019 #83
MadDAsHell Mar 2019 #86
oxbow Mar 2019 #87
oxbow Mar 2019 #88
True Dough Mar 2019 #90
jberryhill Mar 2019 #91

Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:33 AM

1. Well written and expressive of reality

There are so many rumors about Mr. Mueller's report that it boggles my mind. There is no way of knowing when he will issue a report, what it will contain or how it will be received.

Meanwhile, the court cases he's filed or handed off to other prosecutors/jurisdictions grind onward. There will undoubtably be more interviews and probably indictments. Who knows when this will all end? Certainly not Trump's crew and not the news media. Definitely not those of us on DU.

Great post for a Saturday morning, sir. I particularly appreciate your humility about facts! They're tough little nuts, aren't they?

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #1)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:14 PM

36. Focus on

the SDNY investigations. trump is most afraid of them. trump can't do anything to stop them either. Just like Capone, trump is guilty of tax fraud.

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Response to DownriverDem (Reply #36)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 05:54 PM

71. Except that just like Mueller, the SDNY is not going to indict a sitting president.

The SDNY, at the end of the day, is part of (and under the ultimate supervision of) the DoJ.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:39 AM

2. I have no doubt

you've hit the nail on the head in your post, jberryhill. That Mueller report will be as thorough as it can possibly be and I don't know of a better qualified individual who could have carried out the work (there may be a few, but they'd be very few).

But how did you know about that rigged voting machine in Kalamazoo? Were you in on that? Should Mr. Mueller be having a chat with you???

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:43 AM

3. That's about right. :)

 

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:44 AM

4. Although I may speculate....

.... on certain aspects of the Mueller report, I learned a long time ago to keep my mouth shut until those facts you speak of have been established. Simple common-sense logic.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:49 AM

5. It sounds to me like the post is a Mueller apology

 

I have faith in Mueller, whatever he finds. Why do you expect him to find less? I expect him to find more.
I was worried about Barr but after hearing that he has known Mueller for 30 years, I’m not so worried about him.

The sky isn’t falling. In Mueller I trust.

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Response to watoos (Reply #5)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:24 AM

14. "Why do you expect him to find less?"

 

I have no idea what he might find.

Maybe my point is not clear. While there is a lot of hopeful expectation, there will always be something that doesn’t live up to those expectations for someone. That disappointment will find an unproductive and divisive way of expressing itself.

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Response to watoos (Reply #5)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:38 AM

16. It's my understanding that there is an underlying problem

1. The DOJ policy is that a president cannot be indicted.

2. The DOJ policy is to not release disparaging information about those who are unindicted.

I could see this policy combination being used to neuter the Mueller report.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #16)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:22 AM

24. The DOJ policy is not a law, it is not in the Constitution, it's a flimsy shield.

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Response to Brawndo (Reply #24)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:25 AM

25. Right. But a flimsy shield might be all they need.

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Response to PTWB (Reply #25)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:35 AM

28. That's true until it isn't. Consider the DOJ policy on family separations at the border

it was in effect until public awareness and pressure forced a change. The same will be true of enough pressure against the policy of not indicting a sitting President.

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Response to Brawndo (Reply #28)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 05:57 PM

72. And if you think this DoJ will change the no-indictment policy, I have a bridge to sell you

And that's even assuming that Mueller finds that an indictment of Trump would be warranted. Which is precisely the kind of assumption the OP is warning about.

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Response to watoos (Reply #5)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:14 PM

85. Why do you have faith in a Republican?

 

Is this like John McCain suddenly becoming a DU folk hero simply because he was on the other side of Trump?

These are still evil people. They are from a different political party.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:57 AM

6. Mr. Mueller is not investigating the Kalamazoo voting machine. Unfortunately.

Other than that, forewarned is forearmed. We have been living in this paranoid echo chamber for so long we have become desensitized to it. Not that we would deny for a moment that the official stories of several events are leaking like sieves. But the path to truth is paved by stubborn little facts. Let us treasure them.

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Response to planetc (Reply #6)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:08 AM

10. Nothing leaks from Mueller.

 

We have learned things from court filings, but IMO, the end is near for the Trump crime family.
Trump can’t win in 2020 if he makes it that far.
The only way we lose is if we fight among ourselves

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:59 AM

7. K&R

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:03 AM

8. Lol. Spot on!

You left out the part where there’ll be a gazillion threads saying exactly the same thing.

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Response to cwydro (Reply #8)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 04:02 PM

69. Rim shot!

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:07 AM

9. I'm already primed to be disappointed

What a prosecutor can prove in court is maybe 1/10 of the truth. If mueller fails to address facts which he believes to be true but can’t prove in court, we will have the “no collusion, no collusion” group crowing “I told you so,” and I’ll have to endure them just like seeing OJ at basketball games after his acquittal. I have more hope for SDNY since financial crimes are easier to prove.

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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #9)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:10 AM

11. Then you are in for a big surprise

 

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Response to watoos (Reply #11)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:49 PM

44. Happy surprise?

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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #9)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:19 PM

48. Part of the problem also is what tRump has done vs. what is possible to PROVE he has done

I am one among many here at DU who believe tRump is guilty of many terrible things over the years. He has shown us his nature too many times to deny the strong possibility of guilt. I believe he has raped young women. I believe the Russians have recorded evidence of him doing so. I believe he is deeply in dept to Russian mobsters, and has no choice but to repay them with whatever treasonous deeds they require. I believe there is also a lot more criminal activity in his past then that.

However, the question isn’t what I believe, nor what WE believe, the question is what can be proven in a court of law. TRump may be stupid, arrogant and rash, but the people who pull his strings are none of those things. If Russia doesn’t want the “pee tapes” to surface then I don’t think we are ever going to see them. Likewise, if they have set up a financial web that tRump is caught in then I don’t believe they have done it in a slipshod manner that can be easily shown.

I accept the fact that the Muller report is probably not going to unearth every crime that he is guilty of, and I’m also prepared for the fact that the GOP and his supporters are going to dismiss whatever IS shown as part of the political game. “Collusion with Russia? No big deal. Paid off a porn star and violated campaign finance laws to do so; so what, wouldn’t you?”. At this point all I’m hoping is whatever IS revealed will prove egregious enough to oust him from office and/or change the minds of whatever moderate supporters are still in his corner hoping it’s all a big hoax.

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Response to robbob (Reply #48)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:26 PM

49. Well said

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Response to robbob (Reply #48)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:53 PM

58. +1000

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:16 AM

12. No question

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:23 AM

13. Best description of being a lawyer

I have ever read:

"One of the most irritating things in my work is when the facts refuse to cooperate with my argument. I start out with a killer argument, and by the time I’m drilling down into the details, the damned facts turn on me and engage in mutiny!"

Thanks.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:33 AM

15. Relative to the actions of the past I'm pretty sure Mueller is focused on being non-partisan

... which sucks I could care less about whether people think he's partisan will rather him careless also it just put out the damn truth.

We'll see

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:38 AM

17. Well shit. There's a lot of facts.



K&R

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:54 AM

18. I've pre-allocated Mueller an exclusive pet theory pass.

There's just so damn much corruption in the Republican Family Trump.

Sadly, there's only 24 hours in a day.

I'm only hoping to see some choice morsels clipped out on the clothes line of prosecution.

In all honesty, he seems to be operating as any good prosecutor I've observed in the past. Going after a few of the more grievous threads in great depth to maximize the possibility of a conviction. While leaving some others (that his team may be fully aware of) untouched as fodder for future investigation and/or prosecution, if needed.

What is remarkable about the Mueller team is their lack of leaks or even for that matter the foiling of outsiders divining their objectives and their perseverance in the face of all of the obstruction thrown at the investigation by Trump's lackey lawyers and by the very office of the DOJ, itself. Any lesser team would've been smashed asunder by now. That's probably why Trump is still a free man, is because, all of the previous prosecutions have been derailed by a torrent of unethical and illegal moves made by Trump's hired thugs... I mean fixers.


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Response to Hugin (Reply #18)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:34 AM

27. Yes Mueller has discipline & integrity; tRump gang have no discipline or integrity. Mueller will win


The tRump gang, which is to say the Republicon-Trump Party, are complicit and corrupt, as we know, but the leadership at the top of their mob is completely amateur at everything they do. Only reason they've hidden what they have to the extent they have so far is because of guidance from the master of spycraft: Vladimir Putin.

That amateur leadership would be DJT, princess, Uday, Qusay, boy wonder Jared (smartest of the bunch not saying much), Stone, Suckabee, Hannity, and Fox & Friends.

They have been holed beneath the waterline but still think they can defeat Mueller with propaganda.

They are sunk.

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Response to Hugin (Reply #18)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:46 AM

30. Good post! n/t

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 10:58 AM

19. I trust Robert Mueller and his staff period. nt

 

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:15 AM

20. Great essay. Thanks! Well written and insightful. . . . nt

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:19 AM

21. One good thing

Is you can spot the shills the minute they beging to argue against facts.

The rule about not saying anything against Democrats is the best.

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #21)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:13 PM

35. But if those particular Democrats are wrong in your opinion,

then it is perfectly OK to argue the issues. The last thing we need is to have us turn into a bunch of 'yes' people.

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Response to True Blue American (Reply #21)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:17 PM

37. Constructive criticism of Democratics is allowed here. See TOS

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:20 AM

22. Remember, Mueller is only investigating the Russian collusion. . .

. . .allegations.

Anything and everything else not related to this specific charge has been farmed down to the Southern District of NY, the Eastern District of VA, and other federal courts.

And then there are the state courts. . .

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:20 AM

23. You had me at "confederacy of perjurers"

So, yes. Stocking up LOTS of popcorn.

And my pitchfork and torch are next to my 'go bag' by the door.

Ready,

-FTC

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Response to FailureToCommunicate (Reply #23)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:56 AM

32. I'm surprised nobody has invented the pitchtorch

 


It’s a combined pitchfork and torch which leaves your other hand free to throw rotten tomatoes.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #32)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:40 PM

43. There's a problem with such a device

Combining a pitchfork with a torch would be tricky. When you need to use the forked end, you have to hold the handle by the flames. That could be tricky!

Rotten fruits and vegetables is a nice touch, though.

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #43)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:00 PM

46. Flame and fork on the same end. When not protesting, you could always use it to

cook 5 hotdogs at once! (We used to do this when having a bonfire)

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Response to PJMcK (Reply #43)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:44 PM

56. Just spitballing...

Have the flames come out through holes on the tines of the pitchfork. Alone held by the handle with the tines pointed upward it would utilize the torch aspect, held straight out in front of you it could be used for shish-ka-bob.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #32)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:03 PM

47. Great idea! A Torchfork! Combo torch, pitchfork, and heck, flame thrower. Tomatoes

could be preloaded onto tines and lobbed further!

Back to the drawing board!

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:34 AM

26. No expectations, no theories

But yes, the pet theories unfulfilled will lead to much rendering of clothes.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:42 AM

29. Count on it. n/t

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 11:51 AM

31. I really only want to see one thing...

Trump in Chains wearing an orange Jump suit...maybe his family as well..

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:02 PM

33. Signed, your friend, Vladimir Putin

You are just a Russian troll.

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Response to zaj (Reply #33)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:38 PM

53. Dammit, how'd you know?

 

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:11 PM

34. Well, so...what is your thinking on

who really killed Kennedy?

Just teasing.

I don't think that's going to happen, or at least hope it doesn't. Besides, who cares what we say? What will really matter when this thing comes out is what happens because of it.

Remember the objective, hanging like a big shining star right in front of us, is to get Trump and his criminal family out of office, begin cleaning up the massive mess he has created - I mean, basically the guy has dumped a crate of ball bearings on a race track and we've got to go into every nook and cranny when we are fixing it.

Then we've got to be positive and fix healthcare, make some sane and yet aggressive policies to mitigate global warming, reverse the giant tax cut for billionaires and corporations and do what AOC, Bernie and Warren want to do, which is raise the top tax rates.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:18 PM

38. What will happen if the thing that finally gets released ends up being

only 10 pages long, and appears to be mostly exonerating? According to the regulations, it's up to Barr to decide how much he releases to Congress, and multiple analysts have said it could be a simple letter.

What if it doesn't contain a "calvacade of corruption and criminality"?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #38)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:26 PM

40. The Mueller investigation isn't the only game in town.

His remit was only to investigate how the Russians interfered with the election, and he might not be able to link Trump personally to that conspiracy because Trump tends not to leave paper trails. I don't think Barr will suppress the report because he's been put on notice that Congress will demand it. But even if he does, cases opened by other prosecutors in other jurisdictions, including SDNY and the state of New York (over which the federal DoJ has no control) will continue.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:19 PM

39. Conspiracy theories are not the exclusive property of right-wingers.

People in general are disposed to believe what they want to believe, and if known facts don't support their suppositions there's a tendency to assume facts not in evidence and spin a more acceptable theory from them.

But I have no doubt that Mueller has found all manner of creepy-crawlies under the rocks he's turned over, but we don't know - yet - exactly what they are. It is possible he won't find the smoking gun - the hard, incontrovertible evidence that Trump himself was part of the conspiracy by the Russians to influence the election. That could be because Trump doesn't use email and tends to speak in the "code" Cohen described: he doesn't tell you directly what to do; he just states what he wants to be true and you go ahead and see that it becomes true.

But I got to thinking about Watergate, which I am old enough to remember very well and which had me glued to the tv for hours. They never found proof that Nixon ordered, approved, or even knew about the break-in beforehand, although a lot of people thought he did. What he got busted for was the cover-up - in particular, the "smoking gun" tape showed conclusively that he conspired after the fact to have the FBI stop the investigation.

I expect that Mueller has solid evidence of a conspiracy to influence the election. Who, exactly, are the provable, indictable participants, apart from the already-indicted, remain unknown to us for now. But Trump, like Nixon, will be busted, somehow, for the cover-up, that is, obstruction of justice. And SDNY and other jurisdictions are quite likely to nail him and his sleazy family for financial crimes. I have no pet theories but I'm confident that "a cavalcade of corruption" will be discovered. I may be surprised but I don't think I'll be disappointed.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:27 PM

41. There Are Paid Shills Here?

Is there evidence to support that accusation?
Everything else in your post, I buy!

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #41)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:38 PM

42. The OP didn't say there were *paid* shills - just shills and trolls,

many of whom are happy to shill and troll for free.

When I think of trolls I don't think so much of the stereotypical Internet troll, the incel neckbeard in Mom's basement; I think of the trolls of Scandinavian folklore, who are ugly, stupid and mean, and who turn to stone when exposed to sunlight. Internet trolls need to be exposed to sunlight, too.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #42)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:29 PM

51. Paragraph five,

sentence two says, "paid shills." I agree with that. Just my opinion.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #51)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 02:54 PM

64. Well of course...

 


No one could sincerely disagree with anything I’m certain about, so the only way that would happen is if they are being paid.

These jobs are advertised all over the place and it’s how a lot of kids are putting themselves through college. They talk about it all of the time.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #42)

Sun Mar 3, 2019, 06:27 PM

89. Ummm!

Not only that, but you’ll find out that DU is populated by paid shills who are all here to aid in the cover up by expressing skepticism about the unprovable facts you know to be true.
That's a paste from the OP
If that's supposed be sarcastic, it was a weak effort
I also notice the OP was unwilling to engage.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 12:55 PM

45. Only expectation I have is that it won't be as bad for trump as I want, and GOPers will do nothing.

We probably know or suspect more than Mueller's report will include. GOPers have done nothing to date.

I still believe trump will not run in 2020, for a number or reasons. Although that would remove the threat of trump having another term, it allows GOPers to nominate a substitute who'll promise to right the wrongs of trump. But the GOPer candidate will be beholding to the same ignorant white wing racists that elected trump.

But the OP is exactly right that a lot of "theories" will not be addressed in the report and people will claim it's rigged. It's rigged because of the GOPer Senate that could/should have acted by now, but has chosen to disregard everything that is evident from trump's incompetence, trump wanting to enrich himself, the trump crime family, and worse.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:27 PM

50. I don't have a pet theory.

I'll be fine.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #50)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:42 PM

55. Would you be interested in adopting a rescue theory?

 


Your local shelter has lots of theories looking for a forever home.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #55)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 02:53 PM

63. I'm sorry. I can't.

I'd never be able to give it the constant attention and care it requires.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #63)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 02:57 PM

65. Okay. Maybe just leave some food out for strays

 

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #65)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 03:09 PM

67. Can do!

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:35 PM

52. One thing we do know is if tRump isn't declared a criminal..

 

The report is indeed rigged.

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Response to Joe941 (Reply #52)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:49 PM

57. Not necessarily. If Mueller can't find evidence sufficient to support prosecution -

and in this case that would have to meet the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt - he won't identify Trump as having committed a crime. Since Trump doesn't use email there isn't likely to be a paper trail relating to the Russian election conspiracy. And since he talks in the "code" Cohen described, it might be hard to find an instance where he directed someone to do something. The best possibility of that would seem to be the conversation on AF1 where Trump and others constructed a bogus explanation for the Trump Tower meeting. However, keep in mind that Mueller's job is to investigate how the Russians interfered with the 2016 election, not to bust Trump. And in light of the DoJ opinion letters relating to the indictment of a sitting president, all he is likely to do is set forth facts, if he finds any, connecting Trump to a conspiracy.

Trump's biggest legal problems will be with the investigations taking place in SDNY, since financial crimes almost always have extensive paper trails. And bank fraud has a ten-year statute of limitations. There's also the possibility of violations of state law, particularly in New York, over which the federal DoJ has no control. I'm also wondering whether a state can indict a sitting president, since the DoJ guidance letters don't apply, necessarily, to state prosecutions.

But anyhow, if Mueller doesn't accuse Trump of a crime it doesn't mean the investigation was rigged. It means only that he couldn't find evidence sufficient to support prosecution.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:39 PM

54. My pet theory/ies

has evidence to support it.

trump violated the law when he conspired with Stone. Those dots have been semi connected through Mueller's filings.

from Stone's indictment:

Certain Netyksho defendants, through a fictitious online persona they created, Guccifer 2.0, also interacted directly with Stone concerning other stolen materials posted separately online.

The Netyksho indictment: details how Russian military intelligence hacked the computers and how the emails were released.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download

From Cohen testimony:

“In July 2016, days before the Democratic convention, I was in Mr. Trump’s office when his secretary announced that Roger Stone was on the phone. Mr. Trump put Mr. Stone on the speakerphone. Mr. Stone told Mr. Trump that he had just gotten off the phone with Julian Assange and that Mr. Assange told Mr. Stone that, within a couple of days, there would be a massive dump of emails that would damage Hillary Clinton’s campaign,”

“Mr. Trump responded by stating to the effect of ‘wouldn’t that be great,'”


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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 01:56 PM

59. We DUers aren't lawyers or experts on the constitution, most of us

... but we also aren't trolls either. Many of us have been following this story since June or July of 2016. The rest caught up after the November 2016 election. I don't think I like the unfriendly (or even condescending) tone of this post, jberryhill. However I do respect your legal knowledge and I've read your many previous posts with interest, so I'm going to let this pass.

I believe that DU will receive Robert Mueller's final report with interest and open arms.



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Response to FakeNoose (Reply #59)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 06:21 PM

76. Agree as to your observation of the OP.

This is simple really, if we are allowed to see every word of the report prepared by Mueller, I will be completely satisfied as to what he was tasked to do, regardless of the outcome. If not us, our representatives, Democrats.

Much more will follow in New York.

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Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #76)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 06:41 PM

79. Thanks friend!

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 02:00 PM

60. Can a *state* grand jury indict a sitting president?

My very brief research on the question didn't yield an answer, but I'm sure someone must have thought of the possibility of the state of New York indicting and prosecuting Trump for various financial and tax-related crimes and not waiting until he's out of office to do it. The Office of Legal Counsel's opinion letters advise against it, but I don't believe those opinions are binding on states (and aren't actually binding even on the DoJ - they're just opinions). The Constitution would be controlling, of course, but it's silent on the issue. That would certainly be an interesting development. Do you think they can do it?

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #60)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 03:08 PM

66. I'm not a legal expert.

I don't know if the base assumption of the law is "It can unless it can't" or if it's "It can't unless it can."

If it's the first one, then it would seem to me that the states can indict whoever they want. Kind of like the U-turn rule of driving a car. If it doesn't say you can't, then you can.

If it's the second one, then things get icky.

So again, I'm no expert. I'm just trying to logic my way through this. Maybe it's one of those "...powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people..." type of deals.

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Response to Iggo (Reply #66)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 03:18 PM

68. I'm not a legal expert either,

but I'm a retired lawyer and I once taught a constitutional history course. I've been out of the biz for a long time, though, and I'm hoping someone who's more up-to-date has a theory. I think it can be done but of course it would be litigated.

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #68)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:11 PM

84. I'll give you a state, and a president

 



South Carolina, Abraham Lincoln

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #60)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 06:05 PM

73. Whether they can do it is irrelevant if they're not willing to do so

And I doubt that any state will be willing to do it since they would be buying into a lengthy, extended legal battle. And I question whether we should want any state to be able to indict a president. It's a precedent that could easily be abused for partisan reasons by red states.

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Response to onenote (Reply #73)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 06:15 PM

75. Maybe so, but it seems to me that if there is strong evidence that a president

violated the laws of a state, wouldn't the state, through its AG, have an obligation to prosecute that president, just as it would any other violators?

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #75)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 07:02 PM

80. Not if it was uncertain about its constitutional authority to do so

It might be a better strategy to wait until Trump is out of office. Even if there is a statute of limitations issue, there would be an argument that the SoL tolls while the president is in office.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 02:08 PM

61. Thank you kindly for the "brace yourself" post nt

 

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 02:29 PM

62. KnR. I may take a vacay.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 05:46 PM

70. I agree. His scope was pretty limited.

And any crime not directly related to Russia is being handed off to other investigators.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 06:06 PM

74. Yup

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 06:27 PM

77. How dare you read my mind like that!!!

One time, I was representing someone in a vehicular accident case. After reviewing the facts, I suggested to the person that the accident could not have happened as it had been described by him to me by my client because certain evidence supported a very different version of the truth.

My client insisted that I was incorrect, and that I was not interested in finding out the real facts.

Prior to the hearing, a witness was located who corroborated what I had found and refuted what my client claimed had happened.

It can be interesting to watch how people can construct something to fit their preferred narrative.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 06:33 PM

78. I think we'll just be puzzled, and we'll try to fathom the meaning of the redactions.

If even that much is made public.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 07:37 PM

81. except

My pet theory is that Mueller's report will consist, mostly, of dry descriptions of actions already taken and known.

My hope is that there will be a flurry of indictments just before the summary report is made available, and that these will either include dirty Donald or will spark his resignation.

My expectation is that House investigations will continue until either impeachment begins or election day 2020 overtakes us. I also expect state-level investigations to continue until criminal indictments are handed down, followed by arrests and arraignments.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 07:57 PM

82. Just so.

Some rando on Twitter said something 16 months ago that isn’t front and center in the report, so clearly Mueller was sitting on Putin’s lap and dictating from a translated Russian script.

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Response to Codeine (Reply #82)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:10 PM

83. Precisely

 

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2019, 09:23 PM

86. In the last 18 years as a lurker and then poster, I've lost track of the # of clickbait posts...

 

telling me someone is about to be indicted, someone is about "sing," I have a friend in the FBI, the investigator/prosecutor is playing intergalactic 6-dimension chess, etc.

Although I love you all, I've also learned that about 99% of these types of posts end up being click/recc bait bullshit. And in this particular case the worship of Mueller is especially disturbing. He is a neocon facist with the rest of them; I expect nothing from him.

I am planning on nothing, but hoping for everything.

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Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #86)


Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2019, 02:47 AM

88. Will the Mueller report even be released?


According to Seth Abramson, “AG Barr will offer a brief summary to Congress - possibly with redacted excerpts .” And I’ve seen nothing else saying otherwise.

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Response to jberryhill (Original post)

Fri Mar 22, 2019, 05:29 PM

90. And as you predicted

Here's one of many such threads that will ensue, questioning whether Mueller is a Republican puppet:


https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211942823


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Response to True Dough (Reply #90)

Sat Mar 23, 2019, 12:20 PM

91. Like clockwork

 

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