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Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:07 PM

Trump, Capone, & Syphilitic Dementia

“By late March, the crimes of Trump, his family, and his associates will much more fully exposed. More republicans will find it impossible to defend the Trump mob. The legal cases in the courts and the House committee investigations will be plowing the decaying feces known by the brand name “the Trump administration” under. And much of what might seem to be rotting will instead be understood to be part of the necessary process of germination. And between late March and June, those of us at the grass roots level will have the opportunity to plant the seeds of democracy as a follow-up to the fantastic efforts made for the last elections.”
H2O Man; White House Rats; 12-25-2018

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211591082


A lot of people are concerned about the “end” of the Mueller Team's investigation. This includes many who are worried about what is being said about reports that this part of the investigation will not produce further indictments. And some are repulsed by the republicans gloating that there was “no collusion.” All of this, without any knowledge of what Mr. Mueller's report to Attorney General Barr says or doesn't say.

Let's take a closer look. To begin with, we know that what became the Mueller investigation started with a counter intelligence effort by the FBI. It expanded, due to evidence that numerous people connected to the Trump campaign were in contact with Russians and Russian-connected interests. This, as Malcolm Nance has pointed out, raised the question of if they were witting or unwitting dupes.

If they were witting dupes, it was possible that criminal charges would follow. If, on the other hand, they were merely half-wits being duped by Russia, their actions may or may not have been legal. An examination of this could lead prosecutors to charge them with other crimes related to their activities.

In either case, there are two factors to keep in mind. First, the counter intelligence investigation involved “intelligence” from both other domestic agencies, and information from at least three other countries. Much of this is from levels that federal prosecutors rarely, if ever, can use as “evidence” in a court case. Hence, we hear former federal prosecutors and intelligence people on the news making the distinction between “intelligence” and “evidence.”

This intelligence is almost never used when a related counter intelligence operation is ongoing. This can, unfortunately, tie the hands of prosecutors in a large case such as Mr. Mueller was investigating. Yet that does not equal the entire case being “over.” (Mr. Mueller's indictment of the Russian military intelligence members was based upon “intelligence.”)

The second factor is that federal prosecutors only indict when they know the evidence they have provides a higher level of certainty of a conviction than the “beyond a reasonable doubt” instruction a jury receives. This concept is essential for our understanding of what will be coming after the Mueller report. I've been told that a federal prosecutor needs to believe she/he has a 95% chance of getting a conviction to move forward.

There has been speculation -- from sources reliable and unreliable – that there were sealed filings in the court where the Mueller team filed indictments and other related documents. Based upon the sequence of those filings, some thought they might be indictments from Mueller. The fact that none were unsealed on Friday indicates they are not from Team Mueller.

However, recent court activities relating to Rick Gates, as well as Michael Flynn, indicate that investigations relating to the Trump crime family are on-going. As has been reported numerous times, Mr. Mueller began shifting cases to at least three other offices.

What does all this mean? I tend to listen closely to Nick Ackerman, when he is on MSNBC. I also have great respect for a retired investigator I speak with from time to time. Among other things, he helped put mobsters from the construction industry in the federal pen.

I like people who think outside the box. For example, can a president be indicted? The same part of the Constitution that addresses impeaching the president also covers the vice president and federal judges. Think Agnew. Consider a federal judge, Robert Collins, being incarcerated in 1991 before being impeached. No one is above the law.

Why no indictments for conspiring with the Russians? This can't be answered until Roger Stone's case is completed. But it may be due to the counter intelligence nature, as well as the 95% rule. Manafort's first trial showed that a single juror might disrupt justice. The Scooter Libby case showed that if one defendant refuses to tell the truth, even when facing conviction for lying, it makes it difficult to prosecute at the next level.

Yet, I was reminded that Patrick Fitzgerald openly called upon Congress to investigate VP Cheney's role per the Libby case. Justice requires coordination between those agencies and institutions tasked with insuring the rule of law.

Finally, I was reminded of the “Capone Rule.” Often, it is more of a “sure thing” to follow the money with mobsters, to get the sure conviction.

We don't know – yet – what the Mueller Report contains. It's unlikely we will, even if Barr shares his impressions with some in Congress today. Be patient. There is much more to follow.

Peace,
H2O Man

31 replies, 3378 views

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Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply Trump, Capone, & Syphilitic Dementia (Original post)
H2O Man Mar 2019 OP
coeur_de_lion Mar 2019 #1
H2O Man Mar 2019 #2
coeur_de_lion Mar 2019 #3
H2O Man Mar 2019 #6
Mr.Bill Mar 2019 #19
coeur_de_lion Mar 2019 #21
ehrnst Mar 2019 #31
Maxheader Mar 2019 #4
H2O Man Mar 2019 #7
Me. Mar 2019 #12
H2O Man Mar 2019 #14
Scarsdale Mar 2019 #25
mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #5
H2O Man Mar 2019 #8
mr_lebowski Mar 2019 #9
H2O Man Mar 2019 #11
Me. Mar 2019 #10
H2O Man Mar 2019 #13
Hekate Mar 2019 #15
H2O Man Mar 2019 #16
Karadeniz Mar 2019 #17
malaise Mar 2019 #18
smirkymonkey Mar 2019 #20
yonder Mar 2019 #22
Honeycombe8 Mar 2019 #23
Pepsidog Mar 2019 #24
Blecht Mar 2019 #26
emulatorloo Mar 2019 #27
Pepsidog Mar 2019 #28
coeur_de_lion Mar 2019 #29
MartyTheGreek Mar 2019 #30

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:15 PM

1. I am confused about this last paragraph

We don't know – yet – what the Mueller Report contains. It's unlikely we will, even if Barr shares his impressions with some in Congress today. Be patient. There is much more to follow.


Do you mean that even after Barr shares his impressions we still won't see the Mueller report? OR that other things have been set in motion due to the conclusions of the Mueller report?

I am dizzy trying to sort out the potential ramifications of the report.

*Are we* exactly where we should be at this juncture? If so why? Or why not?

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Response to coeur_de_lion (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:24 PM

2. Right.

We won't know today, because Barr is only going to give his impressions to the members of Congress he will be speaking to. It is highly unlikely that he'll share the actual report today (if he does communicate his impressions today). The fact he didn't yesterday suggests the report is lomger and more complex than the republicans want us to believe.

It may be that Barr will be willing to release the report (minus some redactions) to Congress, and possibly the public. It most likely would be after at least a few days, probably longer.

We are exactly where we need to be in this difficult struggle. Not only are investigations continuing in the DOJ-FBI, but Democrats rule in the House of Representatives.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:28 PM

3. If there are ongoing investigations

and the Mueller report refers to the ongoing investigations, will they redact only those sections?

Will Individual 1 be able to crow about "no collusion"?

Or has collusion simply been referred to SDNY and other district courts?

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Response to coeur_de_lion (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:34 PM

6. Yes, yes, and "other"

Information on on-going investigations would be redacted.

Trump will always say "no collusion." That is not dependent on the Mueller Report. Or reality.

Issues relating to the counter intelligence part of the larger investigations will continue within the FBI and other intelligence agencies.

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Response to coeur_de_lion (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 02:42 PM

19. The bottom line is if the Mueller report

exonerated Trump and his associates and family, it would already be posted on the internet in it's entirety. Democrats need to be screaming "What are they hiding?" at the top of their lungs every time they are in front of a microphone right up until election day.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #19)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 02:50 PM

21. Good point

Even Giuliani said the report would be devastating to trump.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 25, 2019, 01:56 PM

31. And if they are screaming "What are they hiding?" at the top of their lungs every time

they are in front of a microphone, they will be taken as seriously as the GOP on their 57th vote to "repeal and replace" Obamacare.

Call me crazy, but I personally think that they should be continuing to do what they are doing, which is investigating and legislating like we sent them there to. They have no power over what Mueller put in his report, but apparently, many people who are very angry at them right now don't know that, and apparently don't know that it doesn't mean that investigations are over...

The closure of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into Russia’s role in the 2016 U.S. election does not mark the end of legal worries for President Donald Trump and people close to him. Other continuing investigations and litigation are focusing on issues including his businesses and financial dealings, personal conduct, charitable foundation and inaugural committee.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-investigations-expla/explainer-why-trumps-legal-woes-go-beyond-the-mueller-report-idUSKCN1R50S3

There are a few Dem congress reps that spend a lot of time on twitter tho, so perhaps following them on twitter will make you feel more validated in your anger.


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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:30 PM

4. Depends on what the a.g. considers to be in his future best interests...



Why would he be any different than the multitude that has already bailed
out on snuffy? Does the yellow haired idiot really have any 'hold' on this
guy?

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Response to Maxheader (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:36 PM

7. My impression is

that Barr is a "company man" who was loyal to Bush the Elder, and remains loyal to the Bush family.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:45 PM

12. Which Is Encouraging

As Jeb has been speaking out against him in recent weeks

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Response to Me. (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:49 PM

14. Yep.

Call it speculation on my part, but I think the Bush family has a strong dislike for Trump.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #14)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 03:19 PM

25. Barr has either a son

or a son in law, who is a newly hired lawyer for tRump. Nepotism is for all, not just the tRumps in this administration.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:34 PM

5. Did you forget the syphilitic dementia part, H2O Man? I was excited for that ;) (nt)

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #5)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:37 PM

8. No.

I figured that being included in the title was enough. (grin)

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:41 PM

9. Awww, man ... thought you'z going to weave it in, in your inimitable style?

Disappointed ... but only slightly

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Response to mr_lebowski (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:45 PM

11. The mere mention

of it would seem to favor fuller consideration of it. But as usual, my essay was already too long.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:43 PM

10. I Am In Dread About ThE End Results Of All This

I'm glad you mentioned the Fitzmas that never was because that is what has me worrying that once again, those at the very top, like Cheney & Raygun before him will never see the inside of a courtroom much less a prison cell.

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Response to Me. (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:48 PM

13. It's understandable

that people are feeling uncomfortable right now. I get that. Yes, I surely do. But in this instance, I really believe that we are in a good place.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 01:56 PM

15. Always a good, thoughtful read. I'm waiting for the next installment...

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Response to Hekate (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 02:04 PM

16. Thank you!

I did outlines of two other essays in my mind last night, besides this one.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 02:36 PM

17. Very thoughtful, informative and helpful. Thanks for sharing!

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 02:37 PM

18. Wondered how I missed that and then saw the date

My big cooking day - prescient as always

Agree - there is much to follow.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 02:45 PM

20. Thanks H2O man.

Very informative and encouraging.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 02:55 PM

22. Good post, thanks for the solace.

Also and without providing context to it, I like the predictive words from your essay in the link: ".....before it then becomes impossible."

To me, those words just sing with hope.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 03:13 PM

23. The Repubs are never going to turn on Trump, until he has no power any more.

They are too afraid of him and his Trumpers.

We will have to try to save our democracy w/o them.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 03:15 PM

24. Best commentary I have read so far.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 03:29 PM

26. Just a kick - nothing to add

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 03:54 PM

27. Kick and Rec, thank you for posting

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 04:11 PM

28. Just read Barr's letter. Total vindication for Dotard. Getting an indictment from a grand jury is

NOT difficult and prosecutors are not shy in charging unless you are the president.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2019, 04:28 PM

30. It can't be unwitting...

Cohen is going to jail in part for lying about TT Moscow. Cohen said at first talks ended Jan 2017 but later admitted talks went through June. Giuliani, (sp?) later said that talks went all the way to Nov 2016!

Add to that, ruskies bailed out DJT going back to the mid-1990's while oligarchs laundered Russia's wealth from oil and then into Trump properties where these type of transactions are easily hidden.

Manifort could have flipped but he didn't and Trump called him a strong man. So there's some still unresolved "witting" going on there too. Mueller's mandate ran its course, but blowback from what he discovered in less than two years, is possibly the opening chapter of the crime of the century against the United States.

The fact that Rosenstein stayed on as a "heat shield" for a "bit" longer says something too. The Heat: If the Mueller report appears weak and no "collusion" or conspiracy going on, but dozens of other cases spun off and exist in other FBI field offices, could this be a green light and attempt by Republicans to end all of the investigations by this corrupt administration. Recall the past few days were all about the "Fake Dossier" which is mostly true so far. Or, could the report be so rattling that Barr can't deny it and the possibility that we had a fraudulent election and therefore, we have a fraudulent and compromised president of the United States then the charges will be Conspiracy to commit fraud upon the United States, which "trumps" any no collusion claims any day of the week!+

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