At the risk of sounding repetitious:

[PCIntern]

I have it on GOOD AUTHORITY from a source who speaks to people routinely at the Department of State that Trump's crime is the following:

He was loaned money by the Russians who forgave the loan. He did not declare the forgiven funds as ordinary income. That is a violation of the tax code in extremis. This is why no returns are forthcoming from the Orange One.

You or I would off to Leavenworth or at best Allenwood (if we gave up a few others who helped us perpetrate this fraud) if we had done this.

[elleng]

1. And it was the Tax Man who got Al Capone, right???

THANKS for the good news, PC.

[SWBTATTReg]

2. I believe this far more and thank you for posting. I've speculated too, that this ...

was the case. Otherwise, how do we logically explain how rump managed to find funds when everyone else was struggling in the aftermath of the real estate bust in 2008? Explains too why he's so afraid to show his tax returns, they won't show the amount of income needed to support all of his so called assets that he supposed has now.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

35. How much did he get?

[SWBTATTReg]

50. ??? How much did he get of what??? I don't understand your ?. NT

[Laura PourMeADrink]

51. The amount of funds he supposedly got from Russia - that no US banks would lend to him.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

56. Again

The amount of funds he supposedly got from Russia - that no US banks woul lend him.

[SWBTATTReg]

58. I have no idea...I do know that he did go to US Banks requesting funds but I don't recall $ ...

amounts nor have I see any $ amounts. Probably 100s of millions, I am guessing.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

59. I am confused and need to read up on this for sure.

This post says that rumor has it that trump borrowed from Russia and loan was forgiven.

But when it was borrowed is not clear. Surely it wasn't as recently as 2016? That is when Deutsche bank turned him down. Already owed them $130mm. He wanted to put Mara Lago up as collateral to spend money on Turnberry.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/02/business/trump-deutsche-bank.html
thought the alleged borrowing was much earlier...after 2008... financial crash...

[SWBTATTReg]

63. I too, have heard as late as 2016, and I never did see any $ amounts like you provide, nor have I...

seen the 130 million already owed them (D bank) by rump, but am not surprised.

We do know that Mueller requested materials from a foreign entity that fought his request all of the way to the supreme court, and it lost (must provide the requested materials) so perhaps if it ever comes out into the public arena, that funds were provided and where the funds came from and where the funds went to (to address the speculation on where rump got funds?), all of this of course depends upon whether that entity was D bank (the hallways and particular floor of the courthouse was cleared prior to the parties meeting, so no one knows who the entity Mueller was going after). I suspect that it was D bank. Makes sense.

I kind of agree w/ you, that it happened as late as 2016, being that rump denies anything ever happening then and not having any relationship w/ the Russians when one of his sons clearly said that a lot of the rump business in fact, dealt w/ the Russians. Funny they mention doing lots of business w/ the Russians, and then deny it.

Who knows, maybe one day we'll all know the answers. Take care.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

64. Good article from FP...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/foreignpolicy.com/2018/12/21/how-russian-money-helped-save-trumps-business/amp/

Yet, still fuzzy as to when he was in deep trouble and when people say it magically turned around

If you have Netflix there's an excellent documentary in trump. You see him from the very beginning. Hell he even got the NYC council to give him a 40 yes tax abatement on his first hotel project.

[SWBTATTReg]

65. Thanks. I will look at FP article and also, I do have Netflix and will eventually look at ...

documentary on rump. Thanks again, and have a nice day!!

[MH1]

3. Playing devil's advocate: why hasn't the IRS actually audited him then?

Wouldn't the normal process for a non-political person who did such a thing be: 1) suspicion mounts; 2) someone tips the IRS; 3) IRS does an audit and finds evidence of wrongdoing; 4) IRS turns over evidence to prosecutor and courts?

We want Trump to have to show his tax returns, because it is customary for candidates to do that, and we think he's hiding something. But currently no law says he has to, right?

My question is if there is a reasonable suspicion of this crime, why hasn't it been investigated by the normal path that would happen for you or me?

[Grasswire2]

5. I too would like to know why the IRS hasn't nailed him.

That's very disturbing.

I had a lot of respect for the agency. My former FIL was district director of a very large IRS district, and he was a straight arrow. Totally straight arrow.

But I don't know how someone like Trump could escape getting caught with all the entanglements and corruption.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

29. IRS doesn't normally see foreign intell or NSA counter-intell. . . . nt

[malaise]

32. You know I am beginning to believe that the Con thinks he's above

the law because he has gotten away with more than a few very serious crimes.

[OhNo-Really]

53. They nailed the $10/hr lady I buy coffee from at local gas station. $1,000

and will take payments from her paycheck.

She broke down in tears when I asked her about her taxes out of curiousity (well, a bit of evil intent: she voted for Trump, praised him to everyone)

Apparently her employer didn't deduct enough. She qualifies for housing aid, food stamps, & medicaid (lots of health problems, employee plan pays about nothing) but owes the IRS who will take money from her paycheck every month for a year.

See, the IRS is very busy.

[Grasswire2]

54. tragic

what a shame

[murielm99]

7. He says they audited him.

Wouldn't he have to pay back taxes and a fine? Wouldn't that be the end of it, with no criminal charges?

I despise the orange one, but is this really worth the speculation? I am playing devil's advocate, too.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

60. Even more confusing ...Didn't Cohen testify that

Trump showed him a refund check for millions?

[unblock]

10. I think most audits are random.

And they audit an increasingly disturbingly low percentage of complex returns.

It's not "efficient" to audit complex returns because it takes a lot of time and rich people can afford lawyers to effectively challenge the irs.

[pnwmom]

14. Why did the IRS first audit Richard Nixon and give him a clean bill of health?

But the next time around, re-auditing the same year, they discovered that he owed another half million dollars.

I think some people at the IRS, just like everywhere, get lazy -- and his returns must be very complicated. Plus, how would they prove the existence of offshore funds that he didn't report?

[uponit7771]

57. Whoa, what was their answer ?! Also, I've been looking for a week why Mitchell went to jail for Nixo

... Nixon !!?!?!

Who in the right mind would just go to jail for someone just because !?!?!

Republicans are some crazy ass'd people !!

[yaesu]

19. According to what I am hearing about the IRS, who's operational funds have been diminishing thanks

to repugs, is that they are not going after deep pocket tax cheats as much anymore & instead are doing more audits on the average Joe's & Jane's because they don't have the funds or manpower to be tied up in courts for years.

[former9thward]

23. What you "hear" is wrong.

1) The IRS is required audit the taxes of every POTUS. 2) The IRS audits rich people because that is where the money is. The "average Joe" is rarely worth the cost of auditing. Every year your chances of being audited if you are a "average Joe" is close to zero unless you have made a math error which computers catch.

[yaesu]

26. Sounds like wishful thinking to me but as far as them being required to do anything I guess it will

be up to the courts to decide, if you don't mind waiting a decade or two.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

36. You are saying the IRS is required to audit a President's

Tax returns? By their rules? Or by law?

[former9thward]

41. From the IRS

4.8.4.2.5 (03-12-2015)
Audit of President and Vice President
The individual tax returns for the President and the Vice President are subject to mandatory review and will be closed directly to the "employee audit reviewer" in Baltimore Technical Services. See IRM 4.2.1.11 (8). The “Other” box in the “Forward to Technical Services” section of Form 3198 must be checked and the examiner should notate “President (or Vice President) Examination; Forward to Baltimore Technical Services.” The examining area will notify the group manager for the Baltimore Technical Services when the return is being shipped. Baltimore Technical Services will provide advance notice to Memphis Centralized Case Processing (CCP), "Miscellaneous Group" when the return is being closed.
The location of the returns of the President and Vice President will be monitored at all times throughout the examination process.
The returns should be kept in an orange folder at all times.
The returns should not be exposed to viewing by other employees.
The returns should be locked in a secure drawer or cabinet when the examiner is away from the work area.
See IRM 4.8.4.2.4.3(a) and (b) for key points to remember during the review of the returns.

https://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/irm_04-008-004#idm139728253070352

[Laura PourMeADrink]

43. Excellent. So IRS is reviewing periodically. But

Not raising red flags for anything fishy? And Congress doesn't know that? Or hasn't heard results of of this IRS review? So, they are doing an end around IRS?

[former9thward]

22. The IRS has and is auditing him.

The IRS is required by federal law to audit taxes of whoever is president of the U.S. The OP's "good source" is not so good.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

30. Your point and OP's points not incompatible.

tRump would hide such loan forgiveness in a multitude of ways, not the least of which is numbered corporations.

The IRS would audit him and was auditing him in 2016.

IRS normally does not have access to and is not made aware of US counter-intell and foreign ally intell that people in the State Department would in some (limited) case have.

I think you are correct and the OP is very likely to be correct too.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

37. So what is up? They should have 2016 and 2017

[former9thward]

42. Yes they do.

[lunatica]

4. It also makes sense regarding his obsequious behavior towards the Russians

He owes them and they can ruin him. Yup! It makes sense.

The Godfather has power in two basic ways. One is from the fear of being killed and the other is from the debt of being helped.

It must have been the easiest thing in the world just to flatter Trump a little to get him in their debt. They fooled his idiot son too, letting him think the Russians were willing to throw all the money the Trumps needed at them just to be in their good graces.

[Grasswire2]

6. another fear is KOMPROMAT

They know all the secrets.

[lunatica]

8. Which they probably acquired while pretending to love him.

The Trump family appears to be an easy mark. Suckers for flattery.

[unblock]

9. Bwahaha! "Trump's crime"! Singular! Bwahahahaha!

[PCIntern]

13. It was a rhetorical flourish...

you know what I mean...

The number of crimes is in the "Transfinite" (which is a fascinating branch of mathematics that I believe is not explored much anymore but it used to be considered a hot topic)

[mgardener]

11. Besides having to pay back taxes

I think the more important issue is Trump AND his families vulnerabilty to Russian blackmail.
Trump's son bragged about the money they were getting from Russia before Trump even became a candidate.
And where else is he getting money from?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

44. Not sure how Cohen's sentence was parsed out...but

Thought part of it was going to jail for hiding income.

[vlyons]

12. That's probably not the only tax evasion either

nt

[TexasBushwhacker]

39. I imagine high priced real estate

is a great way to launder money.

Sell the Russian mob a condo at twice the market rate, say $20 million. Wait for a bit and buy it back for $10 million. The mob gets $10 million in clean cash and Trump gets $10 million profit. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

45. Govt needs to hire Farenthold to unravel

[Hoyt]

15. Doubt that would be evident from a tax return. Don't doubt something like that happened.

[PCIntern]

16. The return would show that it was NOT declared

and I guarantee that there's an influx shown somewhere else...

[Hoyt]

17. What year did he get the loan, and when was it forgiven?

Tax returns won’t help much in determining any of that. Even if proven, GOPers won’t care and probably a good percentage of Democrats won’t either.

[PCIntern]

18. I don't know about his but mine do and would...

we declare what is income and what is not and the source for the non-income. I helps avoid an "audit".

[FakeNoose]

20. You can bet there are no records or receipts anywhere

... you can also bet that Chump never reported any "forgiven loans" as income. If Pootie has anything in writing, like a promissory note signed by Chump, it's worth more to him than the cash that paid for it. That would be his kompromat, not any pee tape or photos.

[Vinca]

21. If true, why did they forgive the loan?

Normally, when crossed, a person manages to lose their balance on the top of a building. What did the Russians get to offset the loss of money?

[lunatica]

24. What they got was their man sitting in the White House doing their bidding

How could anyone want more than that?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

46. Yet it was years between events, no? Perhaps

It was "in the vault" for future reference?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

47. PS...why they helped him win. Payback potential infinite.

[lunatica]

55. If you think about it then you know

that either the Russians are idiots for forgiving huge loans, or they have an ulterior motive. The question pretty much answers itself.

Forget about I’m having to be President for Putin to find a use for Trump. Trump has been laundering their money for decades. Trump is a veritable industrial size laundromat for his friends. Trump Tower has also been the hotel of choice for rich foreign pregnant women to have their anchor babies in the US. He’s a very useful asset.

[former9thward]

25. Please don't mess with conspiracy theory threads.

Even if they have zero evidence. It ruins the fun.

[Pepsidog]

27. Absolutely believable and probable but in the universe of crimes committed by Trump this is probably

akin to a misdemeanor.

[NNYCDN51]

28. We'd be in prison for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!

[link:|











Keep On Thinking Free

[G_j]

33. Wow! nt

[ScratchCat]

31. Let me point this out too:

Even if Russians forgave a loan, and he reported it, its not like that helps him out completely .... because they forgave it for a reason ....

[jimlup]

34. I strongly suspect you are correct...

at a minimum.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

38. Maybe Congress should have started with .."IRS, are

you still auditing DJT returns?". The president is saying he would release to public (as other presidents have done) but he's under audit. Can you give the American public a status on the audit(s)? At least that is an admin type question and it throws it back to him and his own words. ?

[spanone]

40. K&R...👍🏼

[fescuerescue]

48. I don't think that crime would be apparent on a tax return

Loans are not income and repaying the principal isn't an expense.

When borrow money to buy a car for instance, I don't have a $40,000 line on my return to account for the car loan, nor do i account for repaying it back.

Now if that loan gets forgiving, I'm supposed to report it as income, and entities in the US are supposed to send me a 1099-C. HOWEVER if no 1099-C is generated and I don't report it voluntarily, then there is literally no record of that loan on my tax returns.

Now what you might see is a deduction for interest expense. But it's not listed on the return WHO it's paid to, You just see a lump sum interest payment. SOrting that out in a real-estate corporation is a needle in a haystack.

To prove this, you need three items: 1) Proof the loan was made, 2) Proof the loan was forgiven, 3) Proof it was not claimed as income. The IRS return can provide #3, but isn't much help on #1 and #2.


Yes that is a crime that is provable, but you need a hella lot more than a tax return.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

52. Agree on 1099 - banks issue when they write off a loan - like they gave you income because

you never paid them back.

Also agree that you would need more than tax returns. I think you would have to see his financial condition at the point he requested loans from NYC banks and was denied. What was his stated purpose? Was it some phony, convoluted request to build something new or refinance one of his properties? Or, was it for working capital? How much was he requesting? This would be a project in itself, because it's not like he probably submitted a clear and concise request - like Casino X needs a capital injection of $10 million, because it's losing money, and here are proformas on how the casino's future earnings will pay the loan back. Cohen mentioned Trump had all kinds of phony financials created.

So, would add to your list: All documentation of NYC loan requests along with internal bank documents where they ran the numbers and did analysis. Did he really need the money and where did he need it? Exactly where was he losing money?

Let's just say, he really did. And, he went to Russia, and they agreed to give him $X. You are right. It's not like the Russians made him sign a note and that note is sitting in a file cabinet somewhere. Let alone documentation of loan forgiveness. Remember too - trump doesn't like to pay people back.

Strikes me that the only way to know there was a loan is to find the money trail from Russia to a Trump entity.

And probably the most time consuming part - where did those dollars go? There won't be a nice and neat line item anywhere. Liability to Russia for $X. Wire Transfer cash in from Russia for $X. It will be hidden.

I suspect he would have not created a liability (to Russia) and just phoneyed up income across the board to get the cash in. If you watch the Netflix 4-part special on Trump - it is very enlightening. It shows how he did business from the very beginning. His dad infused $ into one of his casinos by just buying millions in chips and never betting them. Who knows how many times something like that was done. And, it could be a way he got the cash in - which sounds impossible to prove.

Bottom line, it would be a dream project to work on to me. But, it would take years. And, you'd probably need to add a Trump accountant who knew it all on the team.

[PatrickforO]

49. Good. Let's hope the jaws of justice grind Trump and his whole criminal family up.

That said, I notice you use the term 'in extremis.' I had not seen that term used in this context before, so I looked it up.

In extremis is a term used in reference to the last illness prior to death or on one's deathbed. The term is generally used in connection with admittance of a dying declaration into evidence.

So, 'in extremis' is probably not the proper term.

It is felony tax fraud, though.

Trump is SUCH a disgusting scumbag. He and his whole family. Why do these parasites, along with all the other billionaire parasites, have so much and we all have to struggle to make ends meet? Why? I'm with AOC on this one: Every billionaire is a policy failure.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

61. PC Intern - do you know when this borrowing supposedly

Happened? Was it post 08 crash? Or in 2016 when Deutsche bank turned him down ?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/02/business/trump-deutsche-bank.html

[H2O Man]

62. Recommended.

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head.