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Tom Rinaldo

(22,913 posts)
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 12:02 PM Jun 2019

I think the alleged conventional wisdom is wrong. I think Dems retake the Senate BY Impeaching Trump

Though Democrats almost certainly would have the votes to Impeach Trump in the House, barring a stunning turn of events (Barr pun not intended) there are not enough Republicans in the Senate willing to face the anger of Trump's core Republican followers to remove Trump from office. That part of conventional wisdom I agree with. Where I differ is on the implications. I think that while most Senate Republicans would be damned if they voted to convict Trump, the ones who occupy Senate seats that Democrats have any chance of winning would be even more damned if they don't. That scenario, I believe, opens up our best real path to retaking the Senate in 2020.

Trump will not become any more popular with his core base than he already is now. They will not become any more riled up to defend his presidency in 2020 than they already are now. Sure Trump will claim that his impeachment is the deep state moving to remove the legitimate president, but Trump already makes that claim without it. He already asserts that there was a coup attempt against him.

Trump's softer support, the 10 to 15% of voters who are willing to consider voting for him without being died in the wool MAGA true believers, are the ones at stake. And right now the Trump/ Barr strategy is working with them. They will neither read the Mueller Report nor pay much attention to what they will regard as " run of the mill" congressional oversight committee meetings on Trump. Barr already programmed their "bottom line conclusions" for them. No charges were brought against the President, and as matters currently stand, no ground to impeach him have formally been asserted by Congress. They are ripe for believing that partisan political calculations drive Democratic demands that the Mueller Report must be "further investigated". Trump can sell them his line that Democrats just want a "do-over" because they are unsatisfied with the Mueller Reports conclusions which found Trump "guilty of nothing."

The clear counter to Trump's political propaganda regarding the Mueller Report is to state that Mueller has already presented Congress with sufficient evidence to warrant an impeachment inquiry now. That is not a do-over, that instead is taking the logical next step based on the evidence already established by Mueller. And THAT will rivet public attention on the evidence found in Mueller's Report, while providing Democrats with the strongest possible constitutional grounds for demanding and making public additional evidence.

Almost all of the political experts agree that the reason why Trump has a real chance of being reelected is because most economic indicators remain strong, and when that is the case an incumbent president tends to be reelected. That helps explain why many among the subset of Trump voters who find him personally unappealing might be willing to vote for him again. That is also why Trump is not polling at his lows now, even though the redacted Mueller Report has already been out for weeks.

We can forget and write off the type of voter who attends a Trump rally, but not all potential Trump voters wear MAGA hats. Blessed with an at least stable economy (inherited from Obama and juiced up with an obscene tax cut for the rich) Trump enters the 2020 election with a strong talking point in his favor since second term attempt elections are usually referendums on the incumbent. What goes against Trump is the discomfort many feel with the way he has governed, with his unpresidential, abusive and divisive style. Democrats need to drive up Trump's unfavorables in order to win in 2020. More Americans need to see him as the repulsive lying and undemocratic grifter that he is. Widely televised and intently watched impeachment hearings can and will do just that.

Then when the ball is tossed to the Republican Senate, let them go on record standing by Trump, and then let that become an election issue in all of the Senate seats that are up in 2020. Outside of the Republican core, which is already in the bag for them, let's see how voters react to the sickly partisan Republican show of unity for a deeply unethical and dangerous to America's institutions President that the impeachment hearings will have fully exposed. Let it be Republicans who are shown playing partisan games with the U.S. Constitution, not poll driven Democrats with wet fingers in the air gauging how upholding the Constitution will or will not work to their electoral advantage.

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I think the alleged conventional wisdom is wrong. I think Dems retake the Senate BY Impeaching Trump (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Jun 2019 OP
A voice of reason in the wilderness watoos Jun 2019 #1
Sadly, wishful thinking is not reason. Wouldn't it be wonderful Hortensis Jun 2019 #40
Excellent post!! Let's impeach the lyin' traitor already... history won't wait much longer! InAbLuEsTaTe Jun 2019 #2
We owe it to the future to impeach this asshole now. diverdownjt Jun 2019 #69
Reasonable reasoning! northoftheborder Jun 2019 #3
You make a good argument, and retaking the Senate would be huge. n/t Hoyt Jun 2019 #4
Lay out the case in public Bettie Jun 2019 #5
Exactly! Maher's panel agreed with you. Duppers Jun 2019 #20
I agree for all the same reasons htuttle Jun 2019 #6
This might just work.... FM123 Jun 2019 #7
Absolutely! brutus smith Jun 2019 #35
Is that you Spock? nt G_j Jun 2019 #8
It's a far stronger argument against them if they clear him in the Senate... TCJ70 Jun 2019 #9
Agree 100%. We're looking like wimps; too afraid to start. sinkingfeeling Jun 2019 #10
K&R... spanone Jun 2019 #11
Agreed but the main reason to impeach is to get the attention of the masses. honest.abe Jun 2019 #12
100% agreed. Thank you sharedvalues Jun 2019 #13
Absolutely NRaleighLiberal Jun 2019 #14
Kick dalton99a Jun 2019 #15
I totally agree. world wide wally Jun 2019 #16
Exactly right Ligyron Jun 2019 #17
Convincing argument. The impact on senate elections wasn't something I had considered. Politicub Jun 2019 #18
I really think . . . Richard D Jun 2019 #19
Amash got a standing ovation watoos Jun 2019 #21
Moscow Mitch. mwooldri Jun 2019 #22
I was wondering that myself. How big a wrench can he throw into the works? LiberalLovinLug Jun 2019 #27
That is my main concern, and I am for impeaching. pangaia Jun 2019 #76
While I see the danger, I also think the best way forward is to impeach LiberalLovinLug Jun 2019 #23
Recommended. H2O Man Jun 2019 #24
K&R Thanks for emphasizing those points. alwaysinasnit Jun 2019 #25
A great big ol' K & R! 50 Shades Of Blue Jun 2019 #26
Which is why Pelosi is waiting aeromanKC Jun 2019 #28
If the Republicans "obstruct" directly or indirectly the Senate trail of Trump Tom Rinaldo Jun 2019 #31
If we win the Senate, there will be a Democratic leader---not Mitch! Doitnow Jun 2019 #41
and another K & R Nevermypresident Jun 2019 #29
I TOTALLY AGREE!!! WestCoastDem42 Jun 2019 #30
Also, looking strictly at the numbers.... kentuck Jun 2019 #32
Totally agree. pdsimdars Jun 2019 #33
Absolutely agree. warmfeet Jun 2019 #34
Very good perspective. 👍 sprinkleeninow Jun 2019 #36
+1 entirely agree! JackInGreen Jun 2019 #37
i think we don't know. barbtries Jun 2019 #38
Thank you. Well said. mountain grammy Jun 2019 #39
That has been my thought too. LiberalFighter Jun 2019 #42
agreed and kicked superpatriotman Jun 2019 #43
Well, I will say this: Cowardice or excuse-making won't even hold us the House. calimary Jun 2019 #44
well said n/t orleans Jun 2019 #54
Great points! I agree. Silver Gaia Jun 2019 #58
Agree with almost everything, except the "FUCK 'em!" part rufus dog Jun 2019 #68
. calimary Jun 2019 #78
"face the anger of Trump's core Republican followers to remove Trump from office" lambchopp59 Jun 2019 #45
I agree. I think we're fumbling away our chance to energize independent voters who didn't jalan48 Jun 2019 #46
My thoughts as well.... paleotn Jun 2019 #47
Yup. That's my thinking, too. Silver Gaia Jun 2019 #60
Absolute agree! rusty fender Jun 2019 #48
Exactly. mnhtnbb Jun 2019 #49
Sounds reasonable. In any event Dems showing some guts in dealing with scumbag would be refreshing. mart48 Jun 2019 #50
Great read Lunabell Jun 2019 #51
Totally agree: Make the R Sens' vote against impeachment defeat them in purple states. stuffmatters Jun 2019 #52
That's why I think impeachment should be timed to take place just before the election. backscatter712 Jun 2019 #53
I agree grantcart Jun 2019 #55
I'm an impeachment flip flopper. But I think this might be the best strategy. Buckeyeblue Jun 2019 #56
K & R! A Higher, Bolder and More Enlightened Way of Political Reasoning About Impeachment! panfluteman Jun 2019 #57
I whole-heartedly agree! Silver Gaia Jun 2019 #59
I fully agree patphil Jun 2019 #61
I believe you're ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! ElementaryPenguin Jun 2019 #62
We have to confront reality: we don't know the effect of a paper impeachment. Honeycombe8 Jun 2019 #63
I'm of the mind that it will be a neutral effect. Turin_C3PO Jun 2019 #65
Right On! I've been saying this all along. rgbecker Jun 2019 #64
Agreed great points to consider kimbutgar Jun 2019 #66
I'm ready to roll those dice... Blue Owl Jun 2019 #67
Tom, thank you saidsimplesimon Jun 2019 #70
I think the majority of the people in this country don't know what is in the Mueller Report. friend of m and j Jun 2019 #71
Thanks for sharing this, friend. And welcome to DU! nt pnwmom Jun 2019 #73
I fully agree with your intro Tom Rinaldo Jun 2019 #79
Great post. Thanks, Tom! nt pnwmom Jun 2019 #72
Once there are televised hearings with witnesses DeminPennswoods Jun 2019 #74
That was true with Nixon, who won 49 states in the 1972 election and over 60% of the popular vote Tom Rinaldo Jun 2019 #80
Yes. Thank you. D23MIURG23 Jun 2019 #75
Yes roscoeroscoe Jun 2019 #77
EXACTLY. Doing what's right brings public witness to what leadership IS. They'll vote accordingly. ancianita Jun 2019 #81
It's about timing. Dem leadership needs to act when the public questions its leadership, not later. ancianita Jun 2019 #82
"Make America America Again" I like it! n/t Tom Rinaldo Jun 2019 #83

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
40. Sadly, wishful thinking is not reason. Wouldn't it be wonderful
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 02:37 PM
Jun 2019

if that turned out to be the case, though? Erased all the misplaced conviction on this issue (leaving those prone to take up something else of course), taken that giant but happy leap of faith, and landed safely on a pile of feathers in 2021 -- swearing in another, far bigger blue wave of Democrats in DC and across the nation.

And skipping another year and a half of anxiety and troubles altogether. Dunning-Kruger dreams, maybe, but they feel so good, so good...!

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,123 posts)
2. Excellent post!! Let's impeach the lyin' traitor already... history won't wait much longer!
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 12:07 PM
Jun 2019

Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

diverdownjt

(702 posts)
69. We owe it to the future to impeach this asshole now.
Sun Jun 2, 2019, 01:03 AM
Jun 2019

Impeach him and charge his minions with everything that will stick to show that
TRUE Americans will not stand for this criminal behavior in our government.

For me it comes down to this.....If not him then who?


Do it now Nancy.

Bettie

(16,126 posts)
5. Lay out the case in public
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 12:11 PM
Jun 2019

and hang the fact that they enabled, still enable, and are fully supportive of a criminal around all of their necks.

People speak of "energizing the MAGAts" I don't think there are that many more of them than have already crawled out and it is a lot fewer than our side tends to believe. There aren't millions upon millions lurking just waiting for the Senate to have their say before they throw in with him.

There are likely a large number people who aren't particularly politically aware, but have awakened as they see all of the fuckery going on.

Give them a reason to trust that Democrats care about our Nation and they will turn out.

FM123

(10,054 posts)
7. This might just work....
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 12:26 PM
Jun 2019

"Then when the ball is tossed to the Republican Senate, let them go on record standing by Trump, and then let that become an election issue in all of the Senate seats that are up in 2020. "

If Speaker Pelosi gives the green light - we know that our Dem lead House will impeach, we know that our repub lead Senate will refuse to convict, so we can use that refusal against them. All the ugly will be exposed during the impeachment for all of America to see, and for America to see the Senate refuse to convict with all that evidence out there will expose their unfitness to hold office. While the trumpy base will not be moved, there are many on the fence that just might be...

TCJ70

(4,387 posts)
9. It's a far stronger argument against them if they clear him in the Senate...
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 12:38 PM
Jun 2019

...than if the House does nothing. The former is taking action against an obvious criminal regardless of the ultimate outcome. The latter is just giving up.

honest.abe

(8,685 posts)
12. Agreed but the main reason to impeach is to get the attention of the masses.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 12:50 PM
Jun 2019

Most people dont pay attention to the news or just read the headlines. Currently if you just read the headlines you wouldnt think Trump did much wrong. With impeachment proceedings there will be blaring headlines everyday stating the crimes and misdemeanors Trump has committed. That will likely swing the public opinion against him for those who are on the fence.

Ligyron

(7,639 posts)
17. Exactly right
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 01:09 PM
Jun 2019

The only sure way to educate the unaware and Fox bots is through Impeachment hearings - live on TV.


The MSM will be pretty much forced to cover those while right now those committee hearings are like a meh for most folks.

This shit argument about further angering his base being a problem is ridiculous. Now matter how angry they get, (and I hope they lose sleep and have a cardiac event over it) they still get only ONE VOTE!

I thought somebody was supposed to be good at counting.

Richard D

(8,765 posts)
19. I really think . . .
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 01:19 PM
Jun 2019

. . that not pursuing impeachment hearings will backfire far worse than pursuing them and getting outvoted in the Senate.

mwooldri

(10,303 posts)
22. Moscow Mitch.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 01:25 PM
Jun 2019

Would he allow progress on impeachment to happen in the Senate? Or would he do a Garland to protect the Dotards?

LiberalLovinLug

(14,176 posts)
27. I was wondering that myself. How big a wrench can he throw into the works?
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 01:36 PM
Jun 2019

Assuming the Democrats impeach him and send it to the Senate. Could he......limit the process in any way? ie...limit the whole process to a month? or limit the time of each Democrat? Limit the scope of the hearings? Or even just not put it on the official agenda and/or delay it until they can retake the House?

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
76. That is my main concern, and I am for impeaching.
Sun Jun 2, 2019, 04:54 AM
Jun 2019

We are not in "normal" times and Mitch is a traitorous bastard.

LiberalLovinLug

(14,176 posts)
23. While I see the danger, I also think the best way forward is to impeach
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 01:30 PM
Jun 2019

Can you imagine if we don't impeach, and yet he wins a second term?

Because the message will STILL be for Republican voters that the Democrats are going to impeach in 2021 so they must take back the House. We could end up back to all branches controlled by R's with a new invigorated Trump, with the Mueller report far behind him, including the now precedent established conclusion of Mueller that a sitting President can't be indicted.


At least, if we lose (hypothetically) and hold impeachment hearings, there will be a record. And even if Fox News, Limpballs, Putin's trolls, GOP governors with suppression laws, do enough again to give him a majority of electoral votes, it will still be a slow drip. New scandals and traitorous behavours will emerge in his second term which will only add onto his perp sheet. Or confirm his guilt for a lot of voters.

IF we lose in 2020 there is more a chance to take back the House again in 2022 with that cumulative effect, than if we wimp out now, and reduce everything from not only in the Mueller report, but all the areas that Mueller did NOT investigate. And also Democrats will lose many voters that are expecting them to fight and disgusted by their choice of just soldiering on with 'business as usual'.

aeromanKC

(3,327 posts)
28. Which is why Pelosi is waiting
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 01:38 PM
Jun 2019

Pelosi has to make the case in the House so obvious that the public understands Trumps guilt because Mitch has the power to limit the Senate trial. He is obligated to have a trial, but if he limits it to the degree it is meaningless then for your scenario (Which I believe in!!) to pan out, Pelosi has to have already made the case for the public to see.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,913 posts)
31. If the Republicans "obstruct" directly or indirectly the Senate trail of Trump
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 01:44 PM
Jun 2019

I believe it will weaken Republicans in the 2020 Senatorial elections. Let Mitch limit the Senate trial all he wants. The full case will already have been made in the House impeachment hearings. The less seriously Republicans treat the charges the more that can be used against them.

WestCoastDem42

(65 posts)
30. I TOTALLY AGREE!!!
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 01:43 PM
Jun 2019

Let the rPub Senate take the obstructive and protective stance against the removal of this idiot and make THAT an election issue.

I am totally supportive of DOING THE RIGHT THING and starting the impeachment process against this idiot. Perhaps it will detract him from starting WWIII.

Let's ask our Senators and Representatives to do their constitutional duties rather than playing politics and trying to get re-elected.

kentuck

(111,110 posts)
32. Also, looking strictly at the numbers....
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 01:50 PM
Jun 2019

If the Democrats were to win 5 more Senate seats, they would have the majority, and they would only need about a dozen or so Republicans to convict in the Senate. It would be a much different scenario than today.

barbtries

(28,811 posts)
38. i think we don't know.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 02:27 PM
Jun 2019

what we do know is that trump is unfit, corrupt and should be removed.

and that good economy? we don't even know we'll have that come 2020.

what might happen should not be the calculus. what is right, what is constitutional, is.

it happens so slowly. i do tend to believe that Pelosi is doing it right, building the consensus. As a DUer recently wrote, "channeling FDR" - she will be pulled along ever so reluctantly, and that is the correct way to do it. It makes the "you're only impeaching for political reasons" argument disintegrate into thin air (not that republicans won't still argue it to the end).

LiberalFighter

(51,088 posts)
42. That has been my thought too.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 02:53 PM
Jun 2019

The Republicans are likely scared of it going to the Senate. DT too. Both know or should know that they will lose and are trying to avoid impeachment. Trump knows what he did is wrong. Republicans in the Senate that have read the report are scared. Those that are not scared have not read the report.

calimary

(81,478 posts)
44. Well, I will say this: Cowardice or excuse-making won't even hold us the House.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 03:00 PM
Jun 2019

We need to fight for this!

We need to show OUR base we’ve got the backbone they voted for! AND Independents, too.

I, for one, am SICK and TIRED of hearing all the handwringing over trump’s base. (FUCK ‘em!)

And what are they gonna think? (FUCK ‘em! Who cares what they think? They’re not with us anyway!)

I, for one, didn’t work like hell for two years to help flip the House of Reps, to give them the power and clout to get this shot done just to have the Dems wimp out because fill-in-the-excuse-here.

And I do not want to hear how we “just have to vote him out in 2020”. HELL NO! That’s a nonstarter. Nobody seems to want to remember that the Russians haven’t gone away, NOR has ANYTHING been done to lock them out of our social media or our election systems!

 

rufus dog

(8,419 posts)
68. Agree with almost everything, except the "FUCK 'em!" part
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 11:37 PM
Jun 2019

I prefer FUCK 'em with a hot poker iron.

lambchopp59

(2,809 posts)
45. "face the anger of Trump's core Republican followers to remove Trump from office"
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 03:03 PM
Jun 2019

Anger, hatred, greed, racism is what motivated Trump's base to vote in that idiot.
Love can turn quickly to hate for many of the bipolar MAGAt's.
Yes, Impeach the bastard. Partially just so Fox Noise will have to dance around the facts so furiously...
they'll finally be losing credibility with many their easily angered faithful flock.

jalan48

(13,886 posts)
46. I agree. I think we're fumbling away our chance to energize independent voters who didn't
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 03:07 PM
Jun 2019

vote last time around.

paleotn

(17,962 posts)
47. My thoughts as well....
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 03:11 PM
Jun 2019

The trick is to dump this in the Senate's lap at just the right time. Sometime just before Nov. 2020 so it's fresh in everyone's minds when they go to the ballot box.

mnhtnbb

(31,404 posts)
49. Exactly.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 03:18 PM
Jun 2019

If anyone deserves impeachment, it's 45. The televised hearings on it will be free press for what a traitorous sack of $hit he is. You can't buy that kind of press. Any Republican still supporting him by Nov 2020 will have to be in the reddest and dumbest state to survive. There are enough swing States with Senate seats in play that Dems could take back the Senate. No way in hell does that happen without impeachment of 45.

stuffmatters

(2,574 posts)
52. Totally agree: Make the R Sens' vote against impeachment defeat them in purple states.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 05:38 PM
Jun 2019

Start the public TV Show(Impeachment Investigation/Hearings) & start educating those voters we need to get the Senate. This is what Warren means when she says "let each of those Senators who (then) vote against impeachment live with that vote the rest of their lives."i.e. get voted out. Make a Senator's vote against impeachment so toxic that voters (D.I, & sane R's) will clamor to the poles in 2020 & vote these accomplices out.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
53. That's why I think impeachment should be timed to take place just before the election.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 05:42 PM
Jun 2019

Force the Senate to have the trial and vote juuuuuust before election day.

Buckeyeblue

(5,502 posts)
56. I'm an impeachment flip flopper. But I think this might be the best strategy.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 06:36 PM
Jun 2019

Doing nothing seems almost to be acquiescing to the status quo.

panfluteman

(2,066 posts)
57. K & R! A Higher, Bolder and More Enlightened Way of Political Reasoning About Impeachment!
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 07:34 PM
Jun 2019

Onward with impeachment hearings, and let those Trump loyalists and holdouts in the Republican Senate sign their own political death warrants as the evidence is exposed!

patphil

(6,208 posts)
61. I fully agree
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 08:08 PM
Jun 2019

Trump supporters will never abandon him.
But, they are only 40% at best.
We are playing to the 60% of Americans with a brain, a heart, and the ability to acknowledge what is actually true, as opposed to the bull crap the Trumpists consume daily from the Trump Beast.

Patrick Phillips

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
63. We have to confront reality: we don't know the effect of a paper impeachment.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 10:14 PM
Jun 2019

Maybe it'll help us in the election and Congress. Maybe it'll hurt us. We just don't know.

Once we accept that, we can move forward.

Turin_C3PO

(14,059 posts)
65. I'm of the mind that it will be a neutral effect.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 10:34 PM
Jun 2019

People aren’t likely to change their positions on Trump, in my opinion. I’d love to be proven wrong.

rgbecker

(4,834 posts)
64. Right On! I've been saying this all along.
Sat Jun 1, 2019, 10:30 PM
Jun 2019

Let the GOP try to defend a vote against Impeachment and conviction. Do what the Constitution says!

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
70. Tom, thank you
Sun Jun 2, 2019, 01:06 AM
Jun 2019

"Now is the time for Bold action", Senator Sanders

Is this why Senator Sanders has the support of so many?

friend of m and j

(220 posts)
71. I think the majority of the people in this country don't know what is in the Mueller Report.
Sun Jun 2, 2019, 01:58 AM
Jun 2019

They are surprised when someone tells them Trumps misdeeds and crimes that are laid out in the report. The people have to understand and be informed about what is going on. If they are not informed they will think Dems are bad guys going after Trump by filling Articles of Impeachment. In today's world the only way to inform them is through television. Television is not going to cover it in depth if the star witnesses are not testifying.

This article doesn't tell us how to get those witnesses to testify. A resolution of contempt of Congress will be litigated in the courts and be a long drawn out procedure.

Congressman Lloyd Doggett from Texas serves on the Ways and Means Committee, the Budget Committee, and the Joint Committee on Taxation and has served in the House since his election in 1994, He is pushing for the committees to use it's "inherent contempt" power to get the recalcitrant witness and agencies into the committee hearings. Under that concept a Congressional Committee Chairman can hold a witness who will not obey a valid subpoena in contempt instead of going to court and asking a judge to hold the witness in contempt. That power is "inherent" in the Committee's power to hold the hearings. The Chairman can order the Sargent at Arms of the House to use handcuffs if necessary to bring that witness to the Capitol and detain (jail) him until the Committee reschedules his testimony.

I think I posted something a while back about when I worked for Congressman Jack Brooks (served 42 years in the House) and and at the time I am talking about he was Chairman of the Government Operations Committee. Everyone who had been in or around the Capitol for very long were afraid of Mr. B. Shortly after Reagan's election Mr. B had some questions he wanted to ask David Stockman, Reagan's newly installed Secr. of the Treasury and scheduled him to testify before his committee (by subpoena I guess). Reagan's people were not familiar with Mr. B and his reputation for ripping a witness apart if he couldn't get straight answers from him. Stockman didn't show for the hearing and as Mr. B waited for him (chomping on his cigar which was always stuck in the side of his mouth) getting madder and madder by the minute. After about 30 minutes waiting he told the Sargent at Arms to take his handcuffs and drag that SOB over here to the Capitol and lock him up until I have time to reschedule him. It didn't take long before Mr. B got a call from stockman's office saying "The Secretary apologizes for his tardiness but was delayed dealing with some very important matters". Stockman showed up about 15 minutes later.

I didn't know anything about "inherent" contempt at that time. I just thought Mr. B had just lost his temper and wouldn't have been surprised if he had gone with the Sargant at Arms to bring Stockman back. But Mr. B knew what he was doing and that he had the authority. In fact I didn't know about a "inherent" contempt order until Congressman Doggett talked about it on Rahel Maddow show.

It is rerely used and is not the normal procedure for finding someone in contempt of Congress, but considering how the Republicans and Trump want to play the game and not follow "norms", I think it is time we pulled some non-norm tools out of the tool Box that Nancy is always talking about.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,913 posts)
79. I fully agree with your intro
Sun Jun 2, 2019, 12:23 PM
Jun 2019

A formal impeachment inquiry solidifies the Democratic House's standing in federal courts when seeking cooperation and/or documents from witnesses. At that point there would be no remaining issues of "legislative intent" relevancy when the House is involved in a procedure laid out by the Constitution. Once the high constitutional impeachment remedy for resolving disputes between branches of our Federal government is invoked, the federal courts will be impelled to fast track cases before the judiciary involving those disputes to the Supreme Court level judiciously. I think it is our best shot at gaining Congressional access to those witnesses and evidence in a timely manner.

But even were that not the case, even were Democrats reduced to reading portions of the Mueller Report out loud to expert legal authorities to comment on during open session, millions more Americans would become aware of those findings through that process. For a sports analogy, relatively few Americans tune in live to a televised broadcast of a regular season baseball game. Standard congressional oversight hearings are like a regular season baseball game. Few will see them, some will catch a few highlights after the fact, more will scan the headlines later just to see "who won". Impeachment hearings though are different. They are the equivalent of a World Series game. It can be the exact same two teams that played against each other a month ago during the regular season with the same players, for the same nine innings, using the same rules; but live viewership geometrically increases for a World Series game. The same is true of impeachment vs standard oversight hearings.

DeminPennswoods

(15,290 posts)
74. Once there are televised hearings with witnesses
Sun Jun 2, 2019, 04:04 AM
Jun 2019

in the House, Americans will find out how lawless Trump really is. That will move public opinion away from Trump although he'll still retain his 30ish base support.

Most politicians are highly sensitive to shifts in public opinion; senators are no exception. Once they sense Trump is vulnerable, it will be every senator for himselft/herself.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,913 posts)
80. That was true with Nixon, who won 49 states in the 1972 election and over 60% of the popular vote
Mon Jun 3, 2019, 08:42 AM
Jun 2019

It will not take such a massive shift and repudiation of Trump to sink him. He starts out with at best an approval rating in the low 40's and he lost the popular vote in 2016.

D23MIURG23

(2,850 posts)
75. Yes. Thank you.
Sun Jun 2, 2019, 04:41 AM
Jun 2019

I would only add that it's not like house Democrats have anything better to do. No one is going to care if they pass a bunch of bills that McConell just ignores.

ancianita

(36,133 posts)
81. EXACTLY. Doing what's right brings public witness to what leadership IS. They'll vote accordingly.
Mon Jun 3, 2019, 08:54 AM
Jun 2019

BECAUSE they'll see those who vote job over country.

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