'Political correctness' used to be known as 'good manners'

[Soph0571]

This

[marybourg]

1. or "civility ".

[SamuelTwain]

2. Or not being a bigoted asshole, at least in public for all to hear.

[underpants]

3. I've often said that

✅

[JHB]

4. IMO, it was also part of drumming up a new, post-Soviet boogeyman

Remember when the phrase first started getting wide play outside of lefty circles?

February 1992, after a speech by former Attorney General Edwin Meese at Harvard Law School, that was widely reported on and promoted, particularly on the Right.

Meese Speaks at Law School Forum
Stresses Importance of Ensuring Free Speech, Freedom of the Press
By Perry Q. Despeignes, CONTRIBUTING REPORTER February 11, 1992

Speaking at a Harvard Law School Forum last night, former U.S. Attorney General Edwin Meese III defended federal restrictions on the content of Planned Parenthood consultations while warning of the danger that "politically correct" speech codes pose to First Amendment rights.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1992/2/11/meese-speaks-at-law-school-forum/

At the time I thought it was a little odd that they'd latch on to that particular phrase, but then I remembered something else:

This was:
1) almost a year after the Soviets had been absolutely sidelined in the response to Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait and the ensuing Gulf War,
2) almost six months since the failed coup by Soviet hardliners to oust Gorbachev, and
3) about a month and a half after the Soviet Union was dissolved completely.

In other words, it featured prominently in a heavily-promoted speech at the precise moment in history when even the most dinosaurine Conservative couldn't maintain the fiction that Liberals and Lefties were "on orders straight from the Kremlin" without losing all credibility beyond a relative handful of true-believing goobers.

The Soviets had become useless as a means of painting liberals and lefties as fools, dupes and active agents of a foreign power ideologically driven to wreck the country. It got harder to make political opponents look line the advance team for the Big Bad Bear when the BBB keeled over and just lay there gathering flies.


So they shifted gears and cloudsourced it: goodbye slavishly following "orders from Moscow", in the new version there's just this weird ideological cloud of anti-Americanism that motivates Liberals and the Left. In some ways it works even better, because it's even more malleable: it can cover whatever you want it to cover as long as you keep thumping the drum.

That's not the sole reason, of course. If people didn't get ed up with "holier than thou" types that phrase wouldn't exist either. But by 1992 conservative media was already converted to running on bile and foam, and the new Terrible Thing to keep the audience juiced was really convenient timing.

[trev]

13. Kind of ironic, isn't it, considering

the Right's current dalliance with a Communist country and Trump's embracing of Russian totalitarianism?

[ck4829]

50. It is very ironic

[Captain Zero]

53. Partly ironic

Today's Russia is not communist. It is a an oligarchy. It is authoritarian. I think that is the major appeal of it to Republicans.

[trev]

54. Yeah, I mentioned Russia is not Communist....

[ck4829]

51. It's just funny though, we've got "holier than thou" types everywhere on the right

Have these people SEEN the right wing Evangelicals for example?

[Mosby]

6. political correctness has two meanings

For Liberals it means we should call Orientals Asians, but for conservatives it means they can't call Mexicans "beaners" or whatever.

See the difference?

That's why the term is basically useless.

[raccoon]

7. I wish I could rec your post. nt

[Nitram]

10. For one thing, the term Oriental is too broad, as it applies to the Middle East as well as Asia.

More importantly, the term is associated with a whole mess of stereotypes that Europeans held about Asians. The term "orientalism" refers to the representation of Asia, especially the Middle East, in a stereotyped way that is regarded as embodying a colonialist attitude. Look it up.

[Honeycombe8]

23. No, it's not. "Oriental" means Asian.

definition:

of, from, or characteristic of Asia, especially East Asia.
"oriental rugs"

The Orient is an historical term for the East.

[smirkymonkey]

45. Oriental vs. Occidental

They are just terms for eastern vs. western. Oriental does not have to apply to Asia specifically, but the meaning of the word has been twisted so that people typically think of the Far East when they hear the term "Oriental".

[Honeycombe8]

56. Occidental is an insurance company.

Yes, I know that oriental can include a large area that includes the middle east and other areas. I think of furniture as being far east, and rugs. But oriental spices to me has included the middle east and other areas. The Europeans used to trade to get the coveted spices from different areas east and maybe south of Europe.

Then there are the three wise men supposedly from the east, in the Bible. Those men are sometimes depicted as being of different races, with one frequently looking Af. American.

The Orient Express went to Turkey and Greece, not China.

The Middle East had exotic spices to trade with the west.

[Nitram]

57. No, you are wrong. It is a historical term for the East, not just Asia. Turkey was part of the

"Orient", but Turkey is not Asian. Oriental rugs were from the Middle East, not Asia. Try to catch up.

[Honeycombe8]

60. Webster's.

To me, "oriental" refers to things, while "Asian" refers to people. To me, I usu. think of oriental as referring to Asia, like oriental furniture, oriental rugs. But to me, oriental spices would include a large area east & south of Europe. The Orient Express went to Turkey at one time. I don't think it ever went to China. So I guess it depends.

But the Wester's definition is:

Definition of oriental (Entry 1 of 2)
1 or Oriental : of, relating to, or situated in the orient
2 or Oriental : of, relating to, or coming from Asia and especially eastern Asia
oriental food
oriental art

—now usually considered offensive when used to describe a person
3 Oriental : of, relating to, or constituting the biogeographic region that includes Asia south and southeast of the Himalayas and the Malay Archipelago west of Wallace's line
4a : of superior grade, luster, or value
b : being corundum or sapphire but simulating another gem in color

[tonedevil]

11. My Chinese Sister-in-law...

says that rugs are oriental and people are Asian. I suppose you feel you know better what you should call her.

[tonedevil]

24. I'm glad I will never be closer to you...

than this.

[demmiblue]

26. Good riddance to that troll.

And people were agreeing with him.

[demmiblue]

22. +1

[Honeycombe8]

25. If your SIL lives in America, I think that was the poster's point.

It's only in America that "oriental" is considered derogatory, is what he was saying. (I haven't traveled outside the country, so I don't know.)

I think of "oriental" as things, while "Asians" refers to people. But I don't know if that's correct.

[tonedevil]

27. Wow...

[tonedevil]

30. Your last sentence...

is exactly my sister-in-law's point.

[Honeycombe8]

31. Yeah....oriental spices, rugs, furniture, etc. +1. nt

[tonedevil]

32. Not people...

no matter what the now departed troll wants to say.

[Leith]

36. No, not only in America

I learned from the Japanese in Japan in the 1980s that the term was not acceptable. Even after I let them know that, to English speakers, the word includes a sense of beauty and mystery.

It was still "no."

[Honeycombe8]

38. I see. +1. nt

[Soph0571]

43. Oriental

Harks back to Empire. It is hugely offensive to anyone I know from East Asia,

[MineralMan]

12. Because, Well - Here Is a Map of Asia:

It's all of the gray cpuntries.

[Nitram]

16. Umm, Mineral Man, since when were Arabs considered Asians?

[MineralMan]

17. They still are. They live in Asia, right?

[marylandblue]

34. It's just another odd illogical language thing.

"Asian" without a modifier means you are from China, Mongolia or Southeast Asia, while "Russian" means you are from Europe even if you from the Asian part of Russia, and "Middle Eastern" means you are from a place in or near Southwest Asia or North Africa, except Israel.

If language were supposed to make sense, we'd all speak in binary.

[MineralMan]

35. It's also distorted by historical usage.

"The orient" once meant everything from Asia eastward in common parlance. Oriental rugs from Persia, and so on. Asian means different thing to different people and different things to individuals, depending whether they're talking about an object or a person.

People still refer to oriental rugs as a generic term. Me? I refer to the region a rug came from, since I love handmade knotted rugs from wherever their origins are. Most people think "oriental art" is Chinese or Japanese, but historically it was more expansive than that.

I don't refer to people as Asian, generally. Instead I try to find out where they come from and refer to them based on that. If I can't, then I might use the word Asian to describe people who have an epicanthal fold, excepting Down Syndrome people. But, not when speaking to them. Instead, I'll ask about the term they prefer, based on their birthplace or family history. I've never found anyone unwilling to share that information. I have a lot of Hmong neighbors. That's what they prefer to be called. However, I also have neighbors of Vietnamese ancestry. So I ask. I have no wish to address someone in a way they don't prefer.

[Nitram]

58. Yes, but they are not "Asian." The 2000 and 2010 U.S. Census Bureau definition of the Asian is:

"people having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent (for example, Cambodia, China, India, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam)". In modern usage it is incorrect to refer to Turks, Arabs, or Persians as "Asian." Oriental still refers to a 19th Century idea that everyone on the continent of Asia is Oriental. "Asian" has acquired a narrower meaning. The term "Oriental" is considered obsolete because it lumps a wide variety of cultures together that have little in common. Its use was based on European stereotypes about cultures that are now considered erroneous.

[JHB]

40. See: Orientalism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism

In art history, literature and cultural studies, Orientalism is the imitation or depiction of aspects in the Eastern world. These depictions are usually done by writers, designers, and artists from the West. In particular, Orientalist painting, depicting more specifically "the Middle East", was one of the many specialisms of 19th-century academic art, and the literature of Western countries took a similar interest in Oriental themes.

Since the publication of Edward Said's Orientalism in 1978, much academic discourse has begun to use the term "Orientalism" to refer to a general patronizing Western attitude towards Middle Eastern, Asian, and North African societies. In Said's analysis, the West essentializes these societies as static and undeveloped—thereby fabricating a view of Oriental culture that can be studied, depicted, and reproduced. Implicit in this fabrication, writes Said, is the idea that Western society is developed, rational, flexible, and superior.

Etymology
Orientalism refers to the Orient, in reference and opposition to the Occident; the East and the West, respectively. The word Orient entered the English language as the Middle French orient. The root word oriēns, from the Latin Oriēns, has synonymous denotations: The eastern part of the world; the sky whence comes the sun; the east; the rising sun, etc.; yet the denotation changed as a term of geography. In the "Monk's Tale" (1375), Geoffrey Chaucer wrote: "That they conquered many regnes grete / In the orient, with many a fair citee." The term "orient" refers to countries east of the Mediterranean Sea and Southern Europe. In Place of Fear (1952), Aneurin Bevan used an expanded denotation of the Orient that comprehended East Asia: "the awakening of the Orient under the impact of Western ideas". Edward Said said that Orientalism "enables the political, economic, cultural and social domination of the West, not just during colonial times, but also in the present."

[Nitram]

9. I've said the same a number of times. Most things labeled PC are just good manners.

Something the incel crowd might look into. "Gee, I wonder why women don't like me."

[Nitram]

15. That's my "true agenda?" Aren't you the little know-it-all!

The over the top anger you express reveals your own agenda, which is obviously based on your feeling of social inadequacy.

[MineralMan]

19. Hey! Thanks for letting us know!

Really...

[demmiblue]

20. Buh-bye!

[ck4829]

49. +1

[enid602]

28. Sarcasm

Political correctness is what separates people of quality and hicks, yokels, bigots, bible bangers, crackers, okies, hayseeds and various other deplorables.

[progree]

41. I think someone missed your "Sarcasm" title line. n/t

[Iggo]

42. .

[llmart]

59. What about the term "hillbilly"?

Can I still use that when referring to my ignorant sister-in-law from West Virginia who voted for trump and still refers to black people as the "N" word?

[Stonepounder]

29. Things change, norms change, the acceptable nomenclature changes.

Words that were once acceptable become unacceptable. And yes, sometimes it gets carried to extreme, but that's just how it goes. Seems to me that the term 'Politically Correct' is just an attempt to find a phrase that refers to the changing of the language.

Think about the words that have fallen out of favor in our everyday language.

WARNING: UNACCEPTABLE LANGUAGE TO FOLLOW!!




kike, spic, dago, beaner, fag, chink, wop, kraut, boy (when referring to a black male)


And on and on. Some words have become so stigmatized that you almost never hear them even written down, instead they are euphemized as in 'the N-word'.

And sometimes PC is carried to extremes. But the point is, by and large it is PC to refer to people by whatever appellation they prefer at the moment.

[sop]

33. "Social Justice Warrior" (SJW) is another popular put-down on rightwing sites

It means anyone who expresses any desire to do anything positive for humanity, as if that's a bad thing. I guess "bleeding heart liberal" and "tree hugger" became too passé for the tech-savvy Alt-Right crowd. The "politically correct" thing has staged a comeback in recent years, though.

Political incorrectness seems like a form rightwing Tourette Syndrome: "Unwelcome, unwanted and uncontrollable utterances of words or phrases that are not appropriate...calling others names, difficulty inhibiting thoughts and/or actions...the inability to consistently apply mental brakes."

[ck4829]

48. They have all these phrases for "Not being a sociopath"

[bronxiteforever]

37. Kick and recommend. Cruelty is accepted as humor

hatred and meanness seen as a virtue. Political correctness just means you are an emphatic human. I never will stand for being lectured about it. I have seen their values .

I think the big problem this country has is being politically correct.
— Donald Trump

[smirkymonkey]

46. God, I hate him. That particular moment should have been the end of him.

The fact that it wasn't makes me despise his supporters. He thought he was being clever and funny, but he was just being a heartless, fucking asshole.

[bronxiteforever]

52. Agree with you 100%.

[Beringia]

39. I think political correctness is hiding your predatory nature

So many people don't actually have the moral compass, but they know how to present themselves according to the trends in societal forward thinking. So much is about getting above others in society, a class system, but then hiding how you got there.

[Soph0571]

44. Huh?

I don't understand you point. If I am politically correct - as in I have manners - that means I am predatory?

[Beringia]

55. Nevermind

I would probably have to get into talking about all kinds of philosophical and sociological questions that are not suited to DU.

[ck4829]

47. K&R