General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsKurt V.
(5,624 posts)comradebillyboy
(10,184 posts)John Fante
(3,479 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-city-real-estate-savors-a-tech-boom-11562760760?shareToken=ste2a897e466444a5ea419de5ce3c6b9d6&reflink=share_mobilewebshare
I will never believe that the American taxpayer should subsidize any companies expansion. My opinion
Perseus
(4,341 posts)My opinion as well.
Least of all a company like NYC that makes so much money. Granted that it is good for jobs, but the money coming from those jobs as tax I don't know they compensate for what is given to the corporation.
Autumn
(45,120 posts)questionseverything
(9,666 posts)if we ever get national healthcare we will have to subsidize rural hospitals/clinics
there are electric making systems that convert cow poop to electricity and get rid of most of the bad gases in the process....I think we could subsidize those to get them started
I am thinking of dairy farms that have hundreds of cows, think of all the greenhouses gases we could harness
somethings are too important for free enterprise
Autumn
(45,120 posts)alternative energy that's not quite the same IMO as giving taxpayer incentives to the Bezos of the world to grow their personal empire. Jeff Bezos makes $4,475,885 per hour, according to Business Insider, around 157 times the median annual worker salary at Amazon of $28,466
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-staggering-money-that-kylie-jenner-jeff-bezos-and-mark-zuckerberg-make-in-a-single-hour-2018-08-27-1388329
questionseverything
(9,666 posts)altho I think there are worse billionaires than bezos just because he supports the Washington post
DENVERPOPS
(8,893 posts)Look around, we are way past the point of no return on that one...........
Take your pick:
United Fascists of America
or
United Corporations of America
infinite_wisdom
(73 posts)Turns out Amazon didn't need all that public money, they brought jobs to NYC anyway.
It's never a good look for a politician to hand out billions in tax abatements and freebies to Corporations who rarely deliver on the jobs they promised. See the Foxconn debacle unfolding in Wisconsin.
I would like to see a federal law prohibiting any tax breaks or other public incentives to businesses. All businesses should pay the same local and state taxes as every other business.
As of now, it's a race to the bottom with the corporations playing 50 states against each other and holding all the cards in the negotiations.
bucolic_frolic
(43,476 posts)creates distortion in the marketplace.
infinite_wisdom
(73 posts)...but somehow they don't care when it means corporations line their pockets and the public sector takes a hit.
The situation as it currently stands is very unfair to small businesses who have no leverage and can't legally bribe politicians with contributions.
shanny
(6,709 posts)is distorted on steroids
Xipe Totec
(43,892 posts)Igel
(35,387 posts)Besides "Amazon's increasing jobs."
It's one thing to expand an office. It's another to add an auxiliary HQ.
Sort of the difference between an airline adding some routes to an airport and making the airport a hub. Both mean "more presence by this airline."
Xipe Totec
(43,892 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,252 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Celerity
(43,733 posts)Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
Verified account
@AOC
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Retweeted Michael Kink
Well, just as we said, Amazon quietly came to NYC without needing a dime of public money or special tax treatment.
The jobs came without the cost.
NYC is an attractive place to locate on its own (incl. public infra!), w/o billions of dollars in corporate giveaway incentives.Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez added,
Michael Kink
@mkink
Google, Facebook, Uber, and Amazon yes, Amazon accelerate NYC expansions, adding jobs with NO public subsidies or tax giveaways https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-city-real-estate-savors-a-tech-boom-11562760760?shareToken=ste2a897e466444a5ea419de5ce3c6b9d6&reflink=share_mobilewebshare
6:02 PM - 11 Jul 2019
7,276 Retweets 30,939
1,596 replies 7,276 retweets 30,939 likes
pangaia
(24,324 posts)Celerity
(43,733 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)And should listen to her in the future.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,179 posts)JoeOtterbein
(7,703 posts)...100% of the Republicans!
SixString
(1,057 posts)on on-line political forums.
A very large number.
shanny
(6,709 posts)CentralMass
(15,265 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)...than the 25,000 projected for their headquarters in Queens. And they didn't "quietly" decide to do so, everyone knows about it.
Amazon already has several facilities in Manhattan.
This is comparing "apples to oranges".
Igel
(35,387 posts)25 or 25,000, both are "more jobs" so they're =.
Or are you saying "more jobs" doesn't mean "more jobs"? Silly, trying to be numerate and focus on meaning instead of the lovely sounds.
George II
(67,782 posts)...and the reason that there aren't tax incentives involved is because they'll be moving into existing building (actually maybe two).
The fact remains that the facility in Long Island City would have been a huge NEW development in a run-down area of Queens, which would have resulted in transit and infrastructure improvements ("infra" ).
I don't know what your last sentence means.
infinite_wisdom
(73 posts)but why can't they do that without the tax incentives?
Amazon paid less than 0 in taxes last year. They received a federal income tax refund of $129 million. They were paying some federal taxes until Trump passed the We Love Plutocracy Tax Act of 2017, but even then it was a low rate.
And now with that money already in their pockets they want more abatements, more freebies?
You are OK with this?
If they want to move into Queens, that's great and they should try and make that happen. But they shouldn't expect tax payers to line their pockets on the way to doing it.
George II
(67,782 posts)They would NOT have gotten abatements or "freebies". I read the details of the deal and yes I was okay with what was proposed by NYS and NYC.
Finally, tax payers would not "line their pockets". Real the proposal.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)I DO like AOC, even with her 'faults.'
I try not to get sucked in to the latest opinions here on somebody or something, but it happens...
George II
(67,782 posts)....to the economy of Queens, NYC, and NYS, with zero downside.
infinite_wisdom
(73 posts)I think you are not being truthful.
George II
(67,782 posts)melman
(7,681 posts)Just like in Seattle.
George II
(67,782 posts)Nothing even close to Amazon in Seattle.
melman
(7,681 posts)What, anyone who looks at it would have to agree with you? lol okay.
George II
(67,782 posts)infinite_wisdom
(73 posts)They chose not to.
They felt push back and they decided to move somewhere where people were stupid enough to hand a company with a trillion dollar market cap free cash.
George II
(67,782 posts)lapucelle
(18,399 posts)What was especially jarring was the link to a WSJ story on the boom in the rental of high end office space in Manhattan, as if the residents of Queens and the Bronx can call this a win.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-city-real-estate-savors-a-tech
boom-11562760760?shareToken=ste2a897e466444a5ea419de5ce3c6b9d6&reflink=share_mobilewebshare
lapucelle
(18,399 posts)Dec. 5, 2018 By Nathaly Pesantez
A new poll has found that Queens residents approve of Amazon building new headquarters in Long Island Cityin stark contrast to the backlash and anti-Amazon rhetoric expressed by many borough officials and groups over the plan.
The Quinnipiac University Poll released today shows that Queens residents are not only for the tech giant locating its headquarters at Anable Basin, but approve of the billions in incentives it is set to receive from the city and state for the move.
The poll found that 60 percent of Queens voters approve of Amazon locating one of its new headquarters in Long Island City, compared to just 26 percent of voters who oppose the tech giants presence.
Queens voters, furthermore, support the $3 billion in state and city incentives Amazon is set to receive as part of its deal to locate to Queens, with 55 percent in approval compared to the 39 percent of voters that oppose the incentives package.
The poll also reveals Queens to be the borough most in support of the city and states incentive package to Amazon, followed by the Bronx.
https://licpost.com/new-poll-finds-queens-residents-support-amazon-in-long-island-city
The Amazon boycott may have played well to a national audience (as well as to donors who do not live in NY-14), but it did not play well to the constituents who elected the congresswoman to represent them.
It seems extremely disingenuous to broadcast via Twitter that Amazon, (by continuing with its long standing plan to expand it's rental of high-end rental space in Manhattan as Amazon) "quietly came into NY", as if they had changed their minds about building their headquarters in LIC.
From the WSJ story that the subtweet links to "prove" the misleading claim:
Instead, interest among social media, e-commerce and ride-hailing companies has been intensifying. Many of these companies are willing to spend big dollars renting high-end Manhattan real estate, rather than the older office stock in Queens that Amazon was prepared to lease.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-city-real-estate-savors-a-tech-boom-11562760760?shareToken=ste2a897e466444a5ea419de5ce3c6b9d6&reflink=share_mobilewebshare
infinite_wisdom
(73 posts)The public would have ante'd up $48,000 per job. The public should ante up $0.
The people involved with the deal claimed it would be a 9:1 ratio in gain:loss for the public. I find that humorous but in a sad way.
Why? Because it's just not believable.
These deals are always sold as being spectacular and they NEVER work out that way. Corporate PR and corporate negotiators are very smart and they are very slick. And they have a real strong inclination to lie through their teeth.
Again, look at Foxconn in Wisconsin. Do you think that deal is going to end up being as great as it was sold to the public?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-02-06/inside-wisconsin-s-disastrous-4-5-billion-deal-with-foxconn
George II
(67,782 posts)...to the city or state. What people don't understand is that Amazon would have paid the full rate of taxes but, if they met certain established criteria they would get an incremental REBATE on what they had already paid. That means they would have paid 100% of their tax liability, but if they met the 25,000 job creation goal they would have gotten about 20% of that tax liability refunded (not sure of the exact number). Still, 80% of their taxes would have been paid. 80% is infinitely better than 0%!
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Conveniently close to Queens.
George II
(67,782 posts)AlexSFCA
(6,139 posts)future NY governor, senator and president.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)Scotty Wanker selling out Wisconsin to the Chinese with the Foxconn giveaway.
Nothing but subsidies without return on investment!
George II
(67,782 posts)....the Foxconn deal.
BTW, that name is emblematic of republican deals, "Fox con"!!
spanone
(135,924 posts)recommended
TexasTowelie
(112,658 posts)With the tax abatements that were offered, the city and state had the ability to control the number of jobs, affirmative action requirements, use of union vs. non-union labor, environmental concerns, and create infrastructure to support the expansion by clawing back a portion of the subsidies. All of those controls are jeopardized since the tax abatement is no longer involved. Although AOC is correct in some aspects, it should not be viewed as a complete win for AOC either.
George II
(67,782 posts)...100% of their taxes and, if they met the established criteria they would get refunds on the taxes already paid. But they would not have ever gotten 100% refunded, indeed nothing even close to that - more like 20-30%. That means the remaining 70% that they paid would STILL have been paid. That's a far cry from today's 0%.
zaj
(3,433 posts)HQ2 was 20,000 jobs
How many will Amazon add without HQ2?
Not saying what the right or wrong policy should be, but this could be a $billion apples and oranges comparison.
jalan48
(13,909 posts)eilen
(4,950 posts)will be practically empty once Citigroup leaves in 2020. Whoever runs against AOC should put their campaign center there (they could probably get a good discount) and take lots of pictures. AOC is bragging about this. In upstate NY where I am from, we would have loved to even be in the running for this deal.
Uncle Joe
(58,524 posts)Thanks for the thread Autumn.