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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSomething is NOT RIGHT. Mueller let Trump get away with TREASON. Just like Flynn wasn't charged
likewise.
drray23
(7,629 posts)It's up to Congress to do so by impeaching.
Bettie
(16,109 posts)because they don't want to.
EndGOPPropaganda
(1,117 posts)Instead Mueller has acted like this is the 1950s Republican Party.
Hes a registered Republican. And he does not seem to recognize how corrupted the GOP is.
His country needed him. And he not only followed every single rule and failed to say anything publicly, he made up new rules to give the president the benefit of the doubt.
Democrats trusted Mueller and we wasted two years doing so.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)stillcool
(32,626 posts)why do I do it?
Codeine
(25,586 posts)if not me who?
That was going to be my exact comment.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,702 posts)Read the Mueller report for an explanation.
triron
(22,003 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,702 posts)say a sitting president can't be indicted, and so far there is no legal authority to the contrary. If Mueller had disregarded the OLC memos and indicted Trump anyhow, apart from the fact that he'd have been instantly fired, the indictment would have been challenged in court and would have gone to the Supreme Court - and this court would almost certainly agree with the separation of powers argument in the memos.
ecstatic
(32,704 posts)Oh, that's right, he was too stupid. Yeah. There's a benign excuse for everything, it seems.
triron
(22,003 posts)sheshe2
(83,770 posts)6. That does not address why Mueller has let Trump get away with it.
This has been addressed. Fact is he did not let him get away with anything. He went as far as he was allowed by law. Trump is far from off the hook.
Fact is there are numerous ongoing investigations. It is far from over.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Solomon
(12,310 posts)Where did we get this idea that a charge has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt before you can charge? That's what the fricking trial is for!
I wish they would apply this kind of privilege before they indict or charge us black folk.
triron
(22,003 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Did you type that meaning it?
You need no proof of a crime to charge someone with a crime....really?
Solomon
(12,310 posts)And yes, I'm a damned defense attorney, so I know what the fuck I'm talking about
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)..not suspicion...not wishful thinking...
Probable cause is a requirement found in the Fourth Amendment that must usually be met before police make an arrest, conduct a search, or receive a warrant. Courts usually find probable cause when there is a reasonable basis for believing that a crime may have been committed (for an arrest) or when evidence of the crime is present in the place to be searched (for a search). Under exigent circumstances, probable cause can also justify a warrantless search or seizure. Persons arrested without a warrant are required to be brought before a competent authority shortly after the arrest for a prompt judicial determination of probable cause.
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)The "it's worse than you ever knew"...oh wait, "it's even worse than that" that they have ALREADY ADMITTED TO, and people sit in prison right now. So....um...NO
They have never even looked at the machines. Really.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Baltimike
(4,143 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Baltimike
(4,143 posts)Solomon
(12,310 posts)in that long quote to even remotely suggest that law enforcement must have proof of a crime before they arrest, indict or charge. I told you, I'm a defense attorney. You're obviously not. You cant lecture me on something I've lived in the courts for going on 40 years. Just stop it. Stop digging. There's plenty of evidence of all sorts of crimes in Mueller's report that would support an indictment or charge.
triron
(22,003 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Baltimike
(4,143 posts)I don't think you're a citizen here...otherwise you wouldn't be postulating such silliness.
sprinkleeninow
(20,249 posts)Cetacea
(7,367 posts)And she was discussing the Mueller probe. There is some confusion surrounding OLC memo and whether or not that limited Mueller's scope when it involved financial deals and other areas and people.
triron
(22,003 posts)triron
(22,003 posts)Cetacea
(7,367 posts)Justice also has a policy that those that haven't been indicted now/yet can't be mentioned in public (this is how I understood it). I suspect that this why Nadler is after Grand Jury materials. There is far too much missing/redacted. So it's more to do with Justice Dept rules rather than OLC.
triron
(22,003 posts)Cetacea
(7,367 posts)And don't forget that Mueller could not pursue financial leads. Congress can. And Pelosi has hinted that they will be looking into Trump Tower Moscow, among other matters. And where Mueller could not consider evidence of collusion/conspiracy, Congress can and most likely will. But then again, Mueller said that evidence was destroyed and nearly everybody lied.
What I am confused about is why we were not informed about the extreme limitations Mueller was working with until the investigation neared completion. Even Maddow was surprised. (she deserves a Pulitzer for her coverage imo)
triron
(22,003 posts)ecstatic
(32,704 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)Solomon
(12,310 posts)Evidence but not proof. Get it? Evidence is not proof. There's plenty of frickin evidence.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)You said and I quote...." I wish people would stop acting like you must have proof of a crime to indict."......There isn't a Prosecutor on the planet that would agree with that....
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)reading for comprehension can be fun
Solomon
(12,310 posts)You really are. And wrong as hell to boot.
Try and learn how the American legal system works.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)or go in front of a JG without "proof"
I'll be waiting for you to source such a case.
This is going to be fun to watch.
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)ONE And then please research probable cause, because....wow
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Junior, Kushner, and Ivanka werent protected.
And Mueller could have said in his report, Except for DOJ policy, we would have locked trump up. But, he didnt. To his credit, he was a bit more forthcoming in yesterdays hearing.
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)that Mueller referred to other offices
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)former9thward
(32,009 posts)He was asked.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,702 posts)Given the role of the Special Counsel as an attorney in the Department of Justice and the framework of the Special Counsel regulations, ... this Office accepted OLCs legal conclusion for the purpose of exercising prosecutorial jurisdiction. And apart from OLCs constitutional view, we recognized that a federal criminal accusation against a sitting President would place burdens on the Presidents capacity to govern and potentially preempt constitutional processes for addressing presidential misconduct.
We considered whether to evaluate the conduct we investigated under the Justice Manual standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but we determined not to apply an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes. ... Fairness concerns counseled against potentially reaching that judgment when no charges can be brought.
former9thward
(32,009 posts)He said the OLC ruling was not a factor in whether they decided to indict.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,702 posts)Now, before we go to questions, I want to add a correction to my testimony this morning. I want to go back to one thing that was said this morning by Mr. Lieu who said, and I quote, You didn't charge the president because of the OLC opinion.' That is not the correct way to say it. As we say in the report and as I said at the opening, we did not reach a determination as to whether the president committed a crime.
sheshe2
(83,770 posts)proud patriot
(100,705 posts)ZZzzzz
obnoxiousdrunk
(2,910 posts)T word. This is series !!!
watoos
(7,142 posts)triron
(22,003 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)as neither charge has anything to do with the crimes at hand.
But you know this.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)as its been explained to him in absolutely excruciating detail. Hes just compelled to post the same shit endlessly, legalities notwithstanding.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)lapucelle
(18,261 posts)Baltimike
(4,143 posts)cyber war is an act of war.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)I would ask you to consider under who's watch the attack occurred?
President Obama had never declared the Russians a "hostile foreign government".
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)by your logic, ONLY the USA can declare war, and not other nations declaring war on us.
And, yes, President Obama DID indeed declare it...but HE didn't have to...again by your logic, no country that attacks the USA is a declared enemy until the powdered wig folk declare a country hostile. This is not so.
But Obama banished the Russians for sure.
oh, and you're welcome!
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)"And, yes, President Obama DID indeed declare it".......when? Citation?
"ONLY the USA can declare war, and not other nations declaring war on us." Yes..it takes a declaration from Congress to declare War. That's a Constitutional mandate.
And without that deceleration of War....you don't have the Constitutional definition of Treason
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)Cyber war is indeed an act of war, and Obama threw them out of their embassies.
But keep pretending that "it's all worse than they knew" but they never switched any votes. You do you
onenote
(42,703 posts)that maintained diplomatic relations, allowed their citizens to travel between them, and had billions of dollars in trade?
The concept of being in a state of war has meaning in international law and domestic law.
If we're at war because of a cyber attack, why hasn't NATO responded? And who else are we at war with -- China? After all, the Chinese are known to have engaged in cyberattacks against US interests.
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)and getting their candidate installed? Billions of dollars in trade...and sanctions THEY were desperate to rescind.
triron
(22,003 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)."Can you give another example of countries that were at war with each other
that maintained diplomatic relations, allowed their citizens to travel between them, and had billions of dollars in trade?
The concept of being in a state of war has meaning in international law and domestic law.
If we're at war because of a cyber attack, why hasn't NATO responded? And who else are we at war with -- China? After all, the Chinese are known to have engaged in cyberattacks against US interests.
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)triron
(22,003 posts)That's not an act of war? If not I don't know what is.
onenote
(42,703 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)We trade with the Ruskies, we share intel with the Ruskies, we have embassies in each other countries...we aren't at war.
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)And in fact, we never declared war in Viet Nam, or even Desert Storm...EITHER of them.
Also, they're back in their embassies because MF45 was paying them back. Obama made them leave, and they fucking face sanctions right fucking now...even as we type these messages.
Holy. fucking. fuck.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)A declared enemy....you're passionate about this...I get it...but you are wrong.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)by the US Code. Russia doesnt qualify by any stretch.
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)Really. The Viet Nam war was never declared. Neither has Iraq or Afghanistan.
Your silly post insinuates that NO OTHER COUNTRY CAN DECLARE WAR ON THE USA....But they *CAN*. A hostile act, like hacking voting files and email from a foreign country is an act of war...cyber war is an act of war.
You're welcome. There is no such thing as needing Congress to declare a "hot wat". That is Russian tactical disinfo.
triron
(22,003 posts)We would face annihilation before we could press a button.
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)triron
(22,003 posts)[Treason] defined in Article III, section 3 of the U.S. Constitution: "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."
and in the definition of 'enemy' which I found referenced here: https://definitions.uslegal.com/e/enemy-of-the-united-states/.
Note in the definition of treason according to the constitution it does not require levying war. The is an 'or' in the definition
not an 'and'. logically a or b requires only a or b to be true not both.
lapucelle
(18,261 posts)The Constitution contains the legal definition of treason. It's the first place anybody should look.
Many people here are already aware that the word "or" appears in the Treason Clause; they are equally aware of what the word "or" means.
in levying war against them,
OR
in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.
lapucelle
(18,261 posts)No one is "acting like [Russia] can't declare war on the US". They're simply stating a fact: Russia has not declared war on the US.
lapucelle
(18,261 posts)The Constitution grants Congress the sole power to declare war. Congress has declared war on 11 occasions, including its first declaration of war with Great Britain in 1812. Congress approved its last formal declaration of war during World War II.
Since that time it has agreed to resolutions authorizing the use of military force and continues to shape U.S. military policy through appropriations and oversight.
https://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/history/h_multi_sections_and_teasers/WarDeclarationsbyCongress.htm
onenote
(42,703 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2019, 11:36 PM - Edit history (1)
He ordered the expulsion of 35 diplomats. He did not cut off diplomatic relations. He did not order the expulsion of the Russian ambassador. He did not suspend travel between Russia and the US or trade between Russia and the US. He did not ask and Congress did not act to declare Russia to be an "enemy" of the United States under the Trading With the Enemies Act.
By way of contrast, while we there was not a formal declaration of war against the North Vietnamese, Congress passed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution giving LBJ authorization to use conventional military forces in Vietnam. Nothing comparable to that has occurred with respect to Vietnam so your comparison falls flat. There is a reason why those committing espionage on behalf of Russia during the Cold "War" weren't shared with treason -- we weren't in a state of war with Russia as that term is understand as a matter of law.
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)lapucelle
(18,261 posts)President Obama did not "declare war on Russia", he did not declare that "Russia is our enemy", and he did not "banish Russians".
triron
(22,003 posts)lapucelle
(18,261 posts)snip===================================================================================
Any person advising a Russian business, any lawyer representing Russian interests, any person registered as an agent for Russia, perhaps even someone doing an interview on Russian television all would be equally guilty of treason. The suggestion is absurd, but that is the logical consequence of accepting Russia as an enemy under our treason law.
https://takecareblog.com/blog/russia-and-enemies-under-the-treason-clause
Codeine
(25,586 posts)and youre wrong. Legal terms have very well-defined meanings, and nothing that has happened here even comes close to those definitions.
Kid Berwyn
(14,905 posts)Problematic is an understatement.
ismnotwasm
(41,984 posts)This is your interpretation on what is possible legally in this situation? Could you please state your case on why you believe this? My understanding is much different
Codeine
(25,586 posts)posted for attention.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)Caliman73
(11,738 posts)It is frustrating to see Trump seeming to get away with what he has done but you can't be jumping into the lack of logic and reasoning that the right frolics in.
Mueller does not have the authority to do anything. He was appointed to investigate conspiracy to interfere with the election. He found substantial evidence of interference but did not have sufficient evidence to meet the burden of proof for conspiracy by Trump or his people. The evidence just wasn't there within the parameters of the investigation.
He did find evidence of obstruction but felt he could not indict Trump because of the OLC policy. You can question that policy but again, it wasn't Mueller's decision to make.
Did you believe that mash up of Trump running and Mueller catching him and throwing him on the hood of the car? That is not how this works. Mueller gave his report to his superior and unfortunately his superior is a political hack with no loyalty to the country. That isn't Mueller's fault either.
Finally, Treason is an actual thing that has a specific meaning. Did Trump betray the country? Likely, yes. That is petty treason, a strictly non-legal term. Did he make war on the US or offer aid and comfort to an enemy? Not within the scope of the election investigation.
triron
(22,003 posts)AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Kid Berwyn
(14,905 posts)Russia was invited to attack our national sovereignty by interfering in our national election.
Russia then did so on Trumps behalf at Clintons expense.
Trump accepted our enemys help.
Trump lied about all of that.
How is any of that not treason?
onenote
(42,703 posts)Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.
Russia and the US are not at war. They are not even "enemies" as that term is understood. Nations at war with another, national that are "enemies", do not maintain diplomatic relations, do not allow citizens to travel between them, do not engage in billions of dollars in trade.
Kid Berwyn
(14,905 posts)They are making war on our elections, working to divide our alliances, and getting the benefits of Swiss banking all with Trumps assistance.
Not trying to change anyones mind or the Constitution. Those are the facts.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Want to drag POTUS Obama into it?
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)Baltimike
(4,143 posts)you're welcome
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Pearl Harbor was an attack...9/11 was an attack...tweets, facebook posts, NOT even close
Baltimike
(4,143 posts)cyber war IS an act of war...since 2012...right here in the USA
triron
(22,003 posts)Trump campaign cooperation is beyond me.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)isnt it?
triron
(22,003 posts)Kid Berwyn
(14,905 posts)Explanation: Obama wanted to warn the country about the Russian attack. Mitch McConnell stopped that plan as political and continues to provide cover. What we got is Putins puppet.
Do you think it a coincidence that McConnell also has a relationship with a Russian oligarch who was suffering under economic sanctions levied by Obama? I dont.
triron
(22,003 posts)and has committed potential ethics violations while in that position, including obtaining
projects for Kentucky to aid in McConnell's reelection.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Baltimike
(4,143 posts)Kid Berwyn
(14,905 posts)The traitor Trump appreciates it, very much.
Rep. Swalwell explains:
Despite Russias harmful national interests against the U.S., and its human rights violations around the world, President Trump and his team are directly and indirectly tied to Russia.
Throughout the 2016 presidential election, President Trump not only refused to criticize Russian President Vladimir Putin, but was even friendly and accommodating in his remarks. In his own words, President Trump called President Putin highly respected." More recently, President Trump put the U.S. on equal moral footing with Russia when responding to Bill OReillys question about Putin being a "killer," saying "We've got a lot of killers... you think our country's so innocent?" This is absolutely false moral equivalence, and unheard of for the President of the United States to insult and demean the country he leads.
President Trump has harshly criticized NATO, and exclaimed that only the NATO allies that paid equally to the alliance deserved protection from the United States. Though these remarks were softened by British Prime Minister Theresa May, who claims that President Trump fully supports the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), it's still unclear how supportive he will be of NATO allies like the Baltic states in light of his relationship with Russia.
President Trump has also surrounded himself with people who do business with and are sympathetic to Russia. The New York Times reported that members of Trumps 2016 campaign and other Trump associates had frequent contact with senior Russian intelligence officials throughout the campaign. In addition to these questionable communications, here are a few other associates with ties to Moscow:
Continues with names, crimes and associated treasons.
https://swalwell.house.gov/issues/russia-trump-his-administration-s-ties
Readers are leaders.
at140
(6,110 posts)Mueller might have been able to charge Trump with treason. And then we would stop doing business with Russia, the embassies would be closed, civilians would not be allowed to travel to Russia, etc.
lapucelle
(18,261 posts)The fact that it is so narrowly written is a good thing. As written, the definition protects citizens seeking redress from claims of "treason" by an autocratic president or a corrupted government.
You can find a good analysis here:
https://takecareblog.com/blog/russia-and-enemies-under-the-treason-clause
She_Totally_Gets_It
(142 posts)onenote
(42,703 posts)everything Mueller knows -- the members of his team, many of whom are Democrats? Are they also deliberately protecting Trump?
She_Totally_Gets_It
(142 posts)I am not disputing the facts that he raised. I just don't trust that he genuinely did everything in his power to make the case. And I believe that he didn't try hard enough.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)He isn't a one-man grand jury...
Meowmee
(5,164 posts)I see it as part coward, part afraid to rock the boat, large part protecting R. There was nothing stopping him from recommending inditement At some point someone will have to do something or it will be the end if it isnt too late already.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)triron
(22,003 posts)In fact, he has profited from it and gained prestige by being POTUS even though he is illegitimate.
Plus SCOTUS has been fundamentally changed without recourse it seems. Not to mention
all the bullshit 'executive decisions' which have been forced upon us. Our nation has been raped
by Trump.
sprinkleeninow
(20,249 posts)UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)point.
triron
(22,003 posts)triron
(22,003 posts)triron
(22,003 posts)triron
(22,003 posts)triron
(22,003 posts)Botany
(70,506 posts)n/t