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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJennifer Rubin nails it - and us
I worry that we the media, voters, Congress are dangerously unserious when it comes to preservation of our democracy. To spend hours of airtime and write hundreds of print and online reports pontificating about the optics of Muellers performance when he confirmed that President Trump accepted help from a hostile foreign power and lied about it, that he lied when he claimed exoneration, that he was not completely truthful in written answers, that he could be prosecuted after leaving office and that he misled Americans by calling the investigation a hoax tells me that we have become untrustworthy guardians of democracy.
The failure is not of a prosecutor who found the facts but might be ill equipped to make the political case, but instead, of a country that wont read his report and a media obsessed with scoring contests rather than focusing on the damning facts at issue.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/07/25/mueller-didnt-fail-country-did/
DeminPennswoods
(15,294 posts)nt
GeorgeGist
(25,326 posts)not WE.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)And if you just look at DU posts from the past 30 hours, you'll see it's not limited to the media.
watoos
(7,142 posts)LiberalFighter
(51,276 posts)The media is in the hands of fewer and fewer compared to the 60's. In the hands of those that don't give a crap about America.
onetexan
(13,078 posts)The story to keep the ratings high.
Kaiserguy
(740 posts)Money and that is the real problem because high ratings and sensationalizing makes them money. As the head of CBS said Trump maybe bad for America but he is good for CBS. Todays media is all about corporate profits.
moondust
(20,022 posts)kentuck
(111,111 posts)Most Republicans believe that Trump committed obstruction by trying to get McGahn to fire Mueller and then trying to force him to create a false document about it. It is a serious breach of our laws. But it doesn't matter in the "new normal".
triron
(22,029 posts)Mueller admitted yesterday the Trump campaign's persistent lying, covering up, etc. was indicative
of guilt. Yet Mueller didn't find them guilty.
kentuck
(111,111 posts)..and his restricted mandate of the Special Counsel.
The way he understood it and the way he testified yesterday, the only thing he could do was present the facts. He could not indict or make any statement about the guilt or innocence of Donald Trump.
Qutzupalotl
(14,340 posts)We need to encourage them at town halls next month.
Caliman73
(11,760 posts)Mueller's position was not to determine guilt or innocence. You are confusing an investigator/prosecutor, with a judge or jury. Mueller's job was to gather evidence and make a report.
You can certainly disagree with how the report was presented. There are certainly questions about decisions that Mueller made about the direction of the investigation.
It wasn't Mueller's job to determine guilt. He was not given the power to determine guilt. He had no power to prosecute, which is why he handed off prosecution to other jurisdiction.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)It's up to congress to prosecute Trump. Let the proceedings continue. IMPEACH !
triron
(22,029 posts)Americans want to be mindlessly fed bullshit by corporate media which is all to willing to oblige.
They don't want to be disturbed about 'trivia' such as losing our democracy to a despot and it's ok
to invite an adversary to attack our elections to determine the party in power for us.
brer cat
(24,642 posts)Brawndo
(535 posts)Most Americans did not and will not read the Mueller report. Like it or not that is a fact. They absolutely SHOULD read it but they won't. So, given that sad reality how do you counter that in order to educate the public? Through political theater and appeals to emotion (spectacles if you will). Public education has been defunded and assailed to the point where civics aren't a priority. The result is a reality TV driven society that requires bright and shiny objects to command attention. I don't agree with it but that is the reality.
If you want to educate and spread awareness then you have to be entertaining to some degree. Requiring that element is odious but do you want voters to know what happened or not? Properly funding public education and requiring Civics as a subject is the way out of that. Until that time, readjust strategy to get the desired outcome, distasteful as it is.
Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)I read the Mueller report.
I admit that I didn't read it enthusiastically. There were many other things that I would rather have been doing. But, I read it.
So far, no one that I know personally, has told me that they've read the report. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
Fair enough. I really didn't want to read it either. Real life stuff gets in the way. Even if that real life stuff is reading something else.
But, that's how our country rolls now.......somebody else does the boring work, then summarizes it for us. If the summary isn't entertaining...then, it's time to change the channel.
We have a President who is only famous for being famous. He's been on TV a lot. "You're Fired."....damn, trump doesn't mess around. Except that he's pretty much sucked at everything other than that show.
If Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, or Franklin Roosevelt were to run against trump today, they'd be squashed in a landslide. Those guys are boring...all they have are thoughts, and ideas.
However, Oprah Winfrey, Justin Timberlake, and Dwayne Johnson would actually have a realistic chance of becoming the President.
watoos
(7,142 posts)The excuse made of scoring contests and/or ratings misses the point IMO.
The M$M is not our friend, it is complicit with the right, ratings are secondary, even making money is secondary.
The supposed most liberal cable news network msnbc is right wing. I remember back when Phil Donahue was arguing on air with Tweety. Tweety was pro Iraq war, Donahue was anti-Iraq war. They fired Donahue. Since then they have fired numerous cable news anchors who have strayed from the right wing narrative, they weren't fired for poor ratings, for not making msnbc money. Keith Olbermann was leading the ratings, but he was fired for straying to the left, Martin Brashear, Cenk Uygur, Melissa Harris/Perry, Ed Schultz, Dylan Ratigan were all fired by msnbc not because they were low in the ratings but because they strayed from the narrative.
I have used this example many times here before; Fox said that Obama beat his wife, CNN said it needed more information, msnbc said no he didn't. All 3 networks are basically the same because all 3 are talking about Obama beating his wife.
I watch Nicolle Wallace and Rachel Maddow and listen to Sirius radio and hang out at DU, right now I am hanging by a thread. I am not knocking DU, it helps keep me sane. I've said enough.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)NewJeffCT
(56,829 posts)They're not going to affect the coverage on:
TV:
Fox News
One America
Sinclair Broadcasting
Radio:
Rush Limbaugh
Clear Channel
Cumulus Media
Newspapers:
NY Post, Wall Street Journal, and countless other small local newspapers
They're a big reason the right has been so successful the past 25 years despite their demographics getting worse throughout - the RW media creates a huge noise and it sucks the rest of the media in behind them.
The Democrats have evenings on MSNBC, the Daily Show and a few others to counteract.
CBS, ABC, NBC and CNN tend to follow the big stories - and, when you have an 800 pound gorilla with a megaphone against a hummingbird, the media is going to listen to the 800 pound gorilla first and almost always.
jayschool2013
(2,318 posts)TV is show business
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)watching, they'd go out of business. I remember the day the Mueller report came out. There was a real buzz. You could tell some of the liberal journalists were on pins and needles...surely we will express utter outrage and impeach. It was the best worlds for them. Seeing someone standup to the guy who called their news fake PLUS my employer will make more money!
mcar
(42,439 posts)With all that's gone on, many still look at this as theater, or view it only in political frameworks.
JudyM
(29,294 posts)uponit7771
(90,370 posts)Catch2.2
(629 posts)my faith in the Dems will cease. Slow playing this until the elections is not acceptable! If there are no consequences to committing crimes, then our country is doomed!
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Stop calling for Impeachment and start calling for voting him out? Huh?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)That they are not already doing?
There is no ability to indict him criminally while he's in office. Didn't you see the Mueller testimony?
consequences for ignoring subpoenas such as a fines. Just because the DOJ has the opinion that a sitting president can't be indicted, doesn't mean others can't. At the very least, an impeachment inquiry is necessary. Lastly, the message. Dems don't realize that the majority of the population watch Fox News. They aren't aware of all the crimes committed by this administration. By starting an impeachment inquiry, or holding other corrupt trumpeters accountable etc. maybe more people will be aware of what's going on. And yes, I did watch the Mueller testimony, which is why there needs to be more action by the Dems.
Who do you think enforces the collection of the fines?
Got any stats to back that up?
Nope. His fans don't care what he does. They will not see his tweets as racist, nor any action he does as a crime. They will call anything they don't want to believe "fake news." You really think they are going to see Democrats bringing impeachment hearings as anything else.
If someone isn't "aware" of his racism and criminal behavior by now, it's because they don't believe the "Lame stream media" or "the Deep state."
Impeachment will do none of the things that you state that you think it will.
It might make you feel better, but that's not enough justification for something that could backfire horribly on us in 2020 if done prematurely.
I have coworkers who just don't pay too much attention. It's not a lame stream media thing, although I have those too. As far as who enforces the fines, I don't know, please tell me. As far as Fox, it is the most watched network. Every public place I go gym, restaurant, hotel, etc. has Fox News on. In the end, this is just my opinion. I was raised to do the right thing. As far as impeachment guaranteeing trump victory in 2020, that is just an opinion too.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 4, 2019, 08:46 AM - Edit history (1)
'a majority of the population."
Just where you go, it's on a lot.
Yes, that's an opinion, and not based in data other than your personal experiences.
Catch2.2
(629 posts)https://www.forbes.com/sites/markjoyella/2018/12/12/fox-news-channel-has-highest-ratings-in-22-years-but-msnbc-is-growing-fast/#6227bb361245
https://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/2018-ratings-fox-news-is-the-most-watched-network-on-cable-for-the-third-straight-year/387943/
https://www.newsweek.com/fox-news-most-watched-cable-news-network-2018-followed-msnbc-and-cnn-1256375
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fox-news-channel-finishes-2018-191300660.html
https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/38294/why-is-fox-news-the-most-viewed-news-channel-in-the-us
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/439785-fox-news-most-watched-in-cable-news-for-mueller-report-coverage
and please tell me who enforces the fines for ignoring subpoenas. I really don't know.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)One of your links states that Fox news was the one most people watching the Mueller hearings watched - but that's not the same thing a majority of the population.
Even the highest rated cable news isn't going to get the majority of Americans watching it. They might take the marjority of Americans 'who watch cable news' but that is not the 'majority of Americans."
If FoxNews has the most cable news viewers at 1,425,000, it's still not anywhere near the majority of Americans - which number 327.2 million.
Do you see the difference? So you can put that notion to bed.
The body tasked with collecting fines for ignoring a Congressional subpoena is congress - but they do it via the DOJ.
But this option is also unlikely to be pursued, at least when it comes to subpoenas against executive branch officials.
It would be odd, structurally, because it would mean the Trump administration would be acting to enforce subpoenas against the Trump administration, said Lisa Kern Griffin, a former federal prosecutor and a law professor at Duke University.
For this reason, in modern times Congress has opted for a third and final approach to enforcing a contempt finding: getting its lawyers to bring a civil lawsuit asking a judge to rule that compliance is required.
Failure to comply with such an order can trigger a contempt of court finding, enforced through daily fines and even imprisonment, Griffin said.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-congress-subpoena-explainer/explainer-congress-no-longer-runs-a-jail-so-just-how-powerful-are-its-subpoenas-idUSKCN1S02K8
you said:
"So you don't have any actual data to back up your claim about FoxNews as the "most watched network."
I googled "Most watched network" and provided links as you asked for.
*thanks for the subpoena link. I honestly did not know which is why i asked. So basically they ask a judge to enforce, but it did not say which judge, at least for the third option.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 4, 2019, 09:14 AM - Edit history (1)
I asked for links to back that up, and you then tried to change the topic...
YOU didn't say that they were "the most watched network" I DID, when I left off the full quote when I said "most watched network" I have corrected that now. BTW - it's not the most watched network, it's the most watched "cable news network."
Basic math shows your statement "a majority of the population watches FoxNews" isn't true.
Majority means over 50%
American population (2018): 329,200,000
Average daily FoxNews veiwership: 1,425,000
That means
50% of 329,200,000 = 164,600,000
FoxNews veiwership is way, way less than the "majority of the population."
Catch2.2
(629 posts)You're assuming that 100% of the American population watch tv. The 329 million people you refer to include infants, babies, kids, etc. Not all 329 Million people are watching the news every day. Out of the people that do watch the news on a daily basis, I would argue that most watch Fox News as supported by the links I provided. You can try arguing semantics or whatever, but the links show that Fox is the most watched network. If winning an internet argument is your goal and makes you feel better, more power to you.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"Out of the people who do watch news" is not the same as "population."
Are you agreeing to that difference now that you've been shown? Words have meanings.
You're welcome.
What are you even talking about??
But whatever. You win!!! Feel better?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Again.
Catch2.2
(629 posts)You're welcome!
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It's right there!
You're welcome!
Catch2.2
(629 posts)Most people would understand that when someone says "the majority of the population watches Fox News" they are referring to the population of people that watch the news. But I was more than willing to explain that to you. You're welcome...again.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)But nope. It's right there where everyone can see.
Most people know that the "majority of the population" isn't the anywhere near the same as as "the majority of the population that watches cable news" at all.
You're welcome!
My point was pretty obvious. Most people would understand that I wasn't referring to 3 year olds watching the news. Just because you didn't understand that doesn't mean everyone else didn't. But once again, you've proved my point. You try and make an argument about semantics and not substance so you can post "You're welcome" or some other stupid thing. It really is sad if this is what it takes to make you feel good. Try going outside a little more. There is a lot more to life than trying to win arguments on the internet, especially when it's over semantics.
*Oh yeah, I almost forgot to put a stupid emoji to show I "won"
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)For the reasons that I explained above. Semantics and stuff.
You're welcome.
Catch2.2
(629 posts)I said the majority of the population watches Fox News. In my next post I said Fox News is the most watched network. Unlike everyone else, you couldn't figure out that I was referring to people that actually watch the news. Instead you chose to argue semantics, completely ignoring the whole point of the thread, all so you can say "I'm right, you're wrong." Very childlike and sad. But again, if telling random people on the internet "I'm right, you're wrong" makes you feel better, more power to you. I'm just glad i'm not like you.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And that Democrats didn't 'realize' that "fact' about the population that watches FoxNews.
So just to get this straight... yes, you were wrong about both those things. Democrats 'realize' who watches FoxNews, as well as their ratings.
You ignored my challenge to "the majority of the population watches FoxNews," and afterwards, shifted to claim that you actually said all along that it was just "the most watched network." (which is also wrong - it's the most watched "cable news network," as the links you posted to defend your characterization of FoxNews showed. )
Now you can go around trying to tell people that you didn't write what you did write, and that when they point out that what you actually wrote isn't supported by facts, in a final attempt to avoid admitting where you got it wrong, retort that they are "ignoring the whole point of the thread," if that makes you feel better. Very childlike and sad.
But again, if telling random people on the internet "Pointing out that what I said is not supported by facts is ignoring the whole point of the thread" makes you feel better, more power to you. I'm just glad i'm not like you.
I take facts seriously, and don't make a spectacle out of myself bending over backwards to avoid admitting when I made a mistake.
You're welcome for the correction.
Pro-tip: You could have avoided all this by saying, "I should have said that the most watched cable news channel is FoxNews. That's what I meant." Then you would only have been wrong about "Democrats not realizing that."
Catch2.2
(629 posts)If you ask anyone about the most watched network on television and you said the majority of the population watches Fox. Just about everyone would understand what you were saying. You either couldn't put 2 and 2 together, or you were too concerned about trying to have a "Gotcha" moment so that you can "Win". Either way it's quite sad.
Pro-tip: Stop spending your time trying to "Win" on the internet.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)on the internet?"
To complain that someone pointing out what you wrote wasn't based in fact was a "gotcha moment?"
Just wanted to "get that straight."
Catch2.2
(629 posts)doing the same thing. Not my fault you can't put 2 & 2 together! When having a discussion on which is the most watched news network and someone says "The majority of the population watches Fox News". Most everyone understands that "population" means the population of news watchers, but not you. Enjoy your life of trying to "win" on the internet!
* There's a reason I wasn't on for two weeks. I don't spend my time trying to find "gotcha" moments on the internet. Maybe you should step away from the computer for a while. It does wonders! Enjoy your life!
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I see that despite the fact that I pointed out where you were wrong, multiple times, along with you moving the goalposts, you seem to think that posting last makes you less wrong. Not my fault you can't take correction.
Enjoy your life! Is that a Gotcha?
Mr.Bill
(24,357 posts)elected officials have apparently rolled over and accepted that no Democrat will ever get to see what was redacted from the report.
My way of thinking is if Democrats with the highest level of security clearance haven't seen the whole report, then no one has actually read the report.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)ffr
(22,676 posts)When do we march?
crimycarny
(1,351 posts)Perfectly articulates the frustration I think many of us feel. I'm so sick and tired of the whole charade, including the "good guys" (Dems). The media, regardless of which way it leans, is only concerned about ratings so that means drumming up emotion by going after more juicy things like Mueller's "performance"--regardless of relevance--instead of his substance.
So depressingly predictable. American's truly are stupid--or perhaps a better word is intellectually lazy. And you know what? It won't matter 24 hours from now because the media will have us all talking about something else. The next new low Trump falls so, or his next outrageous tweet. I'm just truly sick of the whole charade.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,767 posts)She's absolutely on target here. And to think that I once couldn't stand her writing. These days, she makes tons of sense.
spanone
(135,921 posts)Progressive dog
(6,931 posts)the question is if the reasons for failure can be fixed.
stillcool
(32,626 posts)and we really need to invent a new media format. People will not turn off what they watch, to watch a pure media outlet. Like Mueller, it is not entertaining. I don't think there is a day that goes by, that I don't know what's on the tv, and I never have to turn the thing on. Just stop by a few sites, and I've got all the talking points filed in my brain.
CaptainTruth
(6,615 posts)To me, that is "our" failure.
What was once "ask not what your country can do for you--ask what you can do for your country" has become "I'll just criticize House Dems online while I enjoy my comfy chair." That priveledge may be the death of us. If that's the most we're willing to do, I hate to say it, but that's shameful.
I was one of about 200,000 people who marched in San Francisco to protest the Iraq war. We shut down the whole downtown of a major US city.
Now? It seems very few are willing to put their bodies in the streets & make themselves heard in a way that cannot be denied. That's what discourages me the most, & I'm guilty of it too.
Folks, if we're going to save this country we have to get off our butts & fight for it.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)That's where it starts and that's where it matters.
triron
(22,029 posts)gulliver
(13,199 posts)They are more interested in how people "felt" about the Mueller testimony and whether the testimony "moved the needle" with the audience than whether the information was important.
Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)Many well-meaning figures continue to beat the drums of impeachment rather than demand that Trump be voted out of office for betraying his country and lying to voters to conceal his crews unpatriotic sellout to Russian actors.
ppl that are for impeachment want him voted out as well, and say so. we don't make policy. we don't sway thousands of ppls perspectives. good grief.
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Things. We need to stop saying "impeach him" and start saying "vote him out." Or maybe just add a "btw vote him out" after we say "impeach him"!
Martin Eden
(12,882 posts)Yep -- they treat it like a reality TV sports contest, with an emphasis on personity clashes and salacious storylines.
They turn up the heat without shedding light on what's most important -- even though the life of our republic hangs in the balance.
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)She's right about the media of which she is a part of. She's wrong to assume that hard working people have the time to read a 400 page legal report.Barr knows this. Trump knows this. And that is why they both lied about the report and then sat on it while media ran with "No collusion. No obstruction" for weeks.
treestar
(82,383 posts)That boils it down to essentials.
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)I'm hoping he does a similar highlighting the Mueller testimony. Might be a bit redundant though.
treestar
(82,383 posts)There was one that was written too - I wish I could remember enough to link it. I think it was from DU, the person who wrote it joked that it read like a user agreement and they condensed it for people too busy to read the whole thing.
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)Yes, it was excellent. Thanks!
pecosbob
(7,548 posts)He said "Son...you watch to much fuckin' TV. It'll make you stupid...stop it."
He was right. I was a voracious reader. I stopped reading so much when I watched a lot of TV. Now we've got citizens that not only don't read, but can't even find the supermarket without a GPS. Since I was a boy the population has probably near doubled, and the average IQ has gone into the toilet.
Anyone that's letting the MSM influence their opinions or beliefs is a fool. Yes the country is full of them. Don't be that guy.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)When I was 6 years old, my mother taught me to calculate change in my head on the spot. Now, I see these poor checkout people completely unable to figure change to save their lives. And if the cash register doesn't tell them exactly how much of the $20 to give back on a $7.98 purchase, they are utterly lost.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Make money and people watch. Not like we can control every viewer.
pecosbob
(7,548 posts)saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)I posted the Mueller was not an honorable man. On reflection, I was mistaken. He did not bow to pressure from the White House as evidenced by his testimony.
May he live long and prosper after a career as a public servant.
NCLefty
(3,678 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)media on the degradation of much of the electorate and our national conversation. Literally.
There's no point in saying what people should be, though we should certainly examine ourselves. The big picture is what a nation of people who are constantly encouraged to degenerate into their worst political selves is becoming.
And who's behind it and why. At one time wealthy families bought and ran major media at losses as a civic duty and to enhance the prestige of their families. No more, even though today's wealthy are incredibly more so than yesterday's. Republicans repealed laws requiring some responsibility in news broadcasting, then the internet made anything possible. Now giant international conglomerates and independent billionaires purchase ownership in MSM media of all types for other reasons. And we're seeing the results in widespread dissemination of disinformation through their holdings, the vast majority RW-serving.
This is what betrayal looks like these days.
pansypoo53219
(21,005 posts)attempted his coverup, but, failed to hide anyhing , but his taxes.