I really resent the idea that standing up for the rule of law

[madaboutharry]

and The Constitution is evaluated as to whether it "will help or hurt democrats."

This has been the mantra this morning on television news.

What is wrong with us? It now seems like life itself is a political calculation. If the rich and powerful break the law, lie under oath, desecrate The Constitution it only matters if the ramifications for doing something about it are certain to be of benefit. Right and Wrong no longer matter.

[lagomorph777]

1. Letting Trump and his cronies get away with it helps only...

Trump and his cronies.

[peggysue2]

2. What???

This was actually up for discussion? By whom, dare I ask? If we're starting to equivocate on the rule of law and/or the value of the Constitution, we really have landed in a very dark place, as in flirting with national suicide.

[not_the_one]

4. it is the whole "should we, or should we NOT impeach" in a nut shell

Should we do what is right, BECAUSE it is right?

Or should we let it slide because it is inconvenient? Besides, we may not win. AND we may make some people feel ashamed of what they have done.

We certainly don't to make anyone have a (well deserved) SAD.

It is the SHAME/SPECTACLE vs Rule of Law argument.

Do we take the easy way out and LOSE our democracy? Or do we take a stand and BUILD our democracy?

[DemocracyMouse]

19. Ditto on the "BUILD" thing.

[lunatica]

3. Lately I've noticed pundits are having a lot of trouble

Trying to reconcile their forecasting skills in the present atmosphere of what they desperately need to consider normal, everyday politics. The Republicans have managed to blow up the entire concept of what’s normal politics and what anyone can expect of them.

They’ve changed the narrative regarding their decency and righteousness vis a vis political goals and ‘duties’. So the pundits have been forced to accept the fundamental and obvious greed as a Republican quality as if it’s a normal thing. But paradoxically they still hold Democrats to the old political mores. It almost seems they’re desperate to keep Democrats stuck in restricted bygone moral behavior even as they concede carte blanche to the Republicans. They’re desperate to hold the Democrats feet to the fire in a time when the Republicans are given a blind pass for creating the fire.

It’s strange times indeed. Pundits have no idea how times are changing, though I suspect they know that the changes are happening. It’s the same situation for all of us. We don’t know what normal is anymore. We’re all living in the middle of a slippery slope. We’re living in a time where right and wrong have taken precedent for us while chaos has taken over for them.

Maybe this is our modern Civil War and maybe we’re right in the middle of it.

[KPN]

20. We know what normal is. This ain't it. This --

the GOP and the M$M together — is sprouting fascism beginning to take strong root.

[Moostache]

23. We HAVE been fighting a technocratic civil war - since Reagan killed the Fairness Doctrine...

The left has been losing that war for a very long time; and the poison that has been poured into the ears of rural voters and marginalized midwesterners - who are grappling with the decimation of the manufacturing sector of the economy - has been accumulating for DECADES now.

Limbaugh, Hannity, Ingraham, and all the rest have been whipping the right for upwards of 35 to 40 YEARS...unrestrained, uncorrected, unchallenged. The amount of bile that has been poured out is immeasurable.

The ability to abuse mass media and access the subconscious minds of MILLIONS of people has enabled much of the malfeasance of the modern GOP and 'conservative movement'. A marriage of convenience to the religious right and evangelicals has only sealed the pavement on this road to nowhere.

[lunatica]

50. Like you describe it truly is a road to nowhere

Outside of gaining power and personal wealth there is nothing more. There isn’t any thought given to any specified kind of future. No effort to make the world a better place for humanity, or to do anything about the problems facing humanity and the planet. There is no sense of discovery nor any curiosity.

It just seems to be only about power and wealth being concentrated in a small group of humans, with benefits only for themselves.

It really is a road to nowhere.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

62. Good points. The way I look at it is everyone who sees the truth, including

many in the press, have no one to look to to hold trump/GOP accountable. Except the Democrats. The ones who were always the good guys. DOJ now owned by Trump. SC almost owned by Trump. Legal system decisions delayed by the master at out-lawyering and delaying the process. Citizens overwhelmed with too much info overload and trump throwing shiny objects up into the air every single day.

On the day the Mueller Report came out - many think the press were excited because they saw their companies making huge $$ - airing impeachment. May be true - but you could see it in some of the better journalists - the excitement of knowing NOW, something will be done to stop him. That day was April 3rd? Over 5 months ago. And where are we? Still not even pledging to write up Articles. We may or we may not. Still, being stymied and kicked around and delayed in court.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

5. Me 2. It's like all your life you think of our party with so much admiration

for standing up for what is right and wrong. Now, we MAY or MAY not ever even get to writing and recommending Articles of Impeachment against the most deserving person ever to hold the office. What the what??

[Karadeniz]

6. Agree.

[stopdiggin]

7. would you report a crime to the police

if you knew the consequences were adverse? You observe a 12 yr old shoplifting from a store. You know 12 year old lives with illegal mother and father (both employed) and 3 other dependent children. You know that in your jurisdiction parents will almost certainly be deported, and children placed in "services." Do you call the police?

Yes -- "morals" sometimes involve a "calculation"

[leftstreet]

9. If Trump is impeached, will they deport his whole family? YAY!

There's no comparison here, but I think you know that

[CentralMass]

11. You should poll your neighbors first..

[KPN]

18. Hardly comparable. nt

[stopdiggin]

27. not a comparison, an analogy

moral decision = adverse consequence

It's simple ethics. The OP (and some additional posters) advocate that we MUST impeach -- because, MORALS! Other posters are pointing to the possibility that the "high ground" might not render the result most desired.

[H2O Man]

30. It's not an "analogy."

There would need to be something similar in significant respect for it to rank as an analogy. This nonsense ranks as a strawman. Huge difference.

[Bettie]

38. So, what Trump & Co. are doing is, in your mind,

comparable to a child shoplifting?

How about this one:

If you overheard your grown ass male gun lover neighbor making plans with his friends to murder a bunch of people, would you tell someone, even though said neighbor and his friends would likely end up in prison and their innocent spouses and children would lose their fathers and primary source of income?

The only answer there is: Yes.

Even if it makes everyone in the neighborhood hate you because they all liked the guy.

Even if they think you are a rat for doing the right thing.

Even if they think that your neighbor was the best guy who ever lived and the people he was planning on killing are thought to be deserving of it.

[stopdiggin]

46. pretty easy

"murder a bunch of people -- prison -- and their innocent spouses and children would lose their fathers and primary source of income"?

in this case the consequences of not reporting would gravely outweigh that of doing so. where's the question?

the nonsense about whether a decision is popular or not has no bearing on the consequence of an action.

[Bettie]

47. The consequences of letting him

get away with well, absolute corruption on every level is serious.

If you can't see that, well, I can't help you.

If you truly equate what that monster is doing to our country to a twelve year old lifting a candy bar? I've got no words.

[stopdiggin]

53. I'm seeing that analogy is just beyond some

I had no idea that the denizens of DU were so utterly literal

[elocs]

8. How would you feel if standing up for the rule of law helped reelect Trump?

Would it be worth it then?
There is a Christian saying about people that they were so heavenly minded they were no earthly good.
The same could be said in politics that there are those who are so nobly minded that they are no earthly good.

My daughter once did something as a teen which I had told her that if she chose to do it that there would be consequences, but when she did it there were no consequences...then.
Wasn't she surprised when the consequences came when she thought she had gotten away with it.

[leftstreet]

10. Did taking a pass on Bush war crimes help elect Trump?

The question could be put many ways

[H2O Man]

35. Okay, try this.......

What if impeaching Trump caused the moon to crash into the USA, killing everyone. Would you support it then?

[Grasswire2]

12. It wouldn't. nt

[elocs]

14. You can guarantee that?

The truth is that you don't know that for sure.
Trump could still be held accountable when he leaves office and then really risk going to prison although I highly doubt that would ever happen.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

26. so, do the wrong thing for fear of doing right?

[KPN]

16. Huge and in my opinion wrong assumption.

Not impeaching will hurt our cause and chances in 2020 as well as beyond even more.

[elocs]

55. Not impeaching only hurts if pouters from the Left stay home or vote 3rd party,

again.
Pelosi knows math:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/08/22/poll-majority-americans-dont-want-donald-trump-impeached/2090155001/
Poll: Majority of Americans don't want Trump to be impeached and removed from office--

"WASHINGTON -- A majority of Americans oppose impeaching President Donald Trump, according to a new poll by Monmouth University released Thursday.

The data point -- with 59% of those surveyed responding that Trump should not be impeached and compelled to leave office -- comes as Trump’s approval rating remains at 40% in the same poll.

In the poll, there is a clear partisan divide on whether the House Judiciary Committee should pursue an impeachment inquiry. While 72% of Democrats believe such an inquiry is a good idea, only 39% of independents and 8% of Republicans share that belief."

[AllyCat]

59. How, specifically, does standing up for the rule of law help Trump?

I keep hearing this. What will this do to help him?

[yaesu]

13. the problem is with the corporations who fashion the news and the politicians

who are in their pockets. Its doing the right thing VS doing the fascist thing.

[KPN]

21. Exactly -- spot on. We reject it now via

impeachment or we accept fascism. It’s straightforward for many if not most of us.

[KPN]

15. Amen!

Great fundamental question based entirely in reality: “What is wrong with us?”

[CloudWatcher]

17. Chess

I'm disgusted with the 3d-chess analogy. You need to just get up and try and do the right thing every day and not treat voters as pawns.

Re impeachment ... it might require explaining to voters why it is the right thing. But people respect integrity and getting voter support is much easier to get if there is not the Machiavelli component to explain away.

This nonsense about framing everything in terms of whether or not it will help the party is ... sickening.

Or perhaps I'm just being excessively naive and putting too much trust in voters that are constantly exposed to the Fox News and MSM propaganda.

[Duppers]

34. Exactly! Bravo!!

[KY_EnviroGuy]

22. Our nation has been brainwashed by Rethugs and corporations to equate all effects back to economics.

And, Rethugs and corporations control virtually all our media. Thereby, they and their media portray all Democratic programs as harmful to citizen's wealth and job security.

Morality seems irrelevant these days and takes a back seat to what effect an issue has on jobs and corporate profits.

KY............

[Moostache]

24. Sometimes, old-timey sayings have some merit...

"It is easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission..."

Republicans in charge with the slimmest of margins implicitly KNOW this and ACT on it. They don't bother to worry about the consequences of a massive, illogical and financially devastating tax cut or roll back of environmental legislation...they just do it and worry about it later, while Democrats are still debating themselves about the meaning or intent of a specific word.

We seem to be stuck on the idea that IMPEACHMENT is something we NEED permission for in the first place, we don't - never did, never will. The Constitution does not say anything about exercising the congressional authority of impeachment in cases when doing so is advantageous to your political party's fortunes. It says that basically the Legislative Branch SHALL have investigations and authority to review and control the performance of the Executive Branch in several ways, one of which is investigation and recommendation of articles of Impeachment to be voted on by the entirety of the House of Representatives for trial in the Senate if warranted.

The idea that Impeachment hearings are in any way bad for Democrats is obvious to anyone actually following the issues before the Congress today....

[ehrnst]

29. I think that Democrats will get nothing from impeachment to stop Trump, and have much to lose. (nt)

[Moostache]

40. I appreciate your view, I do not share it though.

I have stated multiple times that I believe the nation lost its soul when Sandy Hook happened and NOTHING was done to change gun laws in any way in the aftermath of that blood bath. A significant part of the country died that day as well, and it is gone forever now. Empathy, compassion, protecting the young, educating them and helping to raise a community in our little enclaves around this vast land all died that day. And that cannot be brought back, only rebuilt and only over multiple generations. It's gone now. It may never come back either...

A failure to follow through (IF THE EVIDENCE CAN BE PRESENTED, but based on a careful reading of the Mueller Report, it already is available in plain sight) on impeachment - just because polling suggests, or popular wisdom indicates negative consequences for Democrats similar to Republicans following Clinton-over-reach impeachment will kill the soul of the Party. Maybe not in the narrow focus of 2020 and 2020 alone, but forever and in ways that can't be recovered from lightly.

I am a Democrat because I believe in the party platform and I believe in maintaining the rule of law, responsibly governing when in power, protecting the powerless more than expanding the rights of the powerful and I find it intolerable to allow Trump to freely commit crimes because of a Justice Department memo that says special counselors may not indict a sitting president. The case was made, convincingly, in the Mueller Report.

Clinton was impeached for personal conduct in a trumped up case that was laughable on its surface if not for the seriousness of the mechanisms brought to bear in its execution. The blow back against the GOP was not BECAUSE of impeachment, it was due to ABUSE of impeachment for nakedly partisan gain. The investigation that led to Clinton's impeachment was YEARS longer than Mueller, and light-years more in the weeds. While Mueller probed official acts and impacts to the actual mechanisms of power and governance in the USA, the Clinton probe looked into dresses, cigars, tawdry gossip and sex. The only reason more outrage was not immediately apparent from the 10 cases of substantial obstruction by Trump is that Barr, and the henchmen, covered it up, muddied the waters, declared victory and have been flaunting the rule of law ever since.

If we do nothing because there is truly no evidence, that is one thing...if we do nothing because it is politically expedient and convenient, that is something altogether more horrific and could NOT be recovered from because it would forever paint the party as "weak" and without a moral center. It does not look like we are passing on a vigorous investigation at the moment, so there is still time to do the right thing here and reach the conclusion already laid out in Mueller - Donald J. Trump is a criminal grifter and con-man, who used extra-legal assistance to gain power and has abused that power ever since obtaining it. He is a menace to democracy around the globe and at home and the world would be a better place 1 second after he is removed from office.

But regardless of outcome, impeachment or just investigations and no denouement, all of what he did muse be examined, understood and evaluated against the rule of law...or in addition to it's soul, America will have lost much, much more.

Here I stand because I can stand no other option.

[old guy]

54. Agreed.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

39. Well stated. And to me the critical success factor

is to move quickly. Each day you wait, lessens the gravity of the crimes.

[ehrnst]

45. Why? Is being ill-prepared a benefit? (nt)

[Laura PourMeADrink]

60. Oh, you mean wait until all the trump legal cases

are decided? Good if we get tax returns although it will take lots of time to sort through that. It's not like he's gonna have a liability on his BS that says "Due to Russia for Election Tampering."

Good if we get the underlying evidence for the Mueller Report. What's the status on that?

Not sure what waiting for McGahn to testify will gain us. He's already been interrogated by the most non-political prosecutor.

[ehrnst]

61. Straw man much?

Attacking me for pointing out that we need to be very prepared doesn't help anything, does it?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

63. Attacking you? I was asking the question - what is the status of what constitutes

preparedness?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

64. Since you brought it up. Would love to hear a

Good summary of where we are on everything outstanding. Some items hard to find. You can Google and it will say we subpoened back in May and then no follow up articles. Wish NYT would do one of their good summary status reports.

I don't think it's much to ask

[usaf-vet]

25. So when will the stop lying to new military enlistees. They take an oath on day one....

to "Support and Defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic."

[ehrnst]

28. Well, you know, if we impeached Thomas, that would be "standing up for the rule of law"

but if DT gets to replace him with a clone half his age, then it hurts everybody, not just Democrats.

You know how criminals get less time for a crime in a plea deal than the rule of law states they should, when they give the prosecutor information that takes down someone even more criminal?

That's also more beneficial overall to "the rule of law" than simply throwing the book at that criminal.

Sometimes its not a choice between "good/evll" it's a choice between "damage control/shooting ourselves in the foot"

Besides, what actual consequences would impeachment inflict on DT? It's not a judicial proceding. It would not shorten his time in office whatsoever, and it's not like history won't know what he did. What history may record is that we did the equivalent throwing the book at someone when we knew when the jury had been bought off, instead of going after the big win that would actually serve the rule of law long term, even if it meant skipping the chance for a big dramatic, "Inherit the Wind" speech. What good is it if it costs us taking the Senate in 2020?

Why do you think that McConnell isn't out there howling about how bad impeachment would be? If it would be bad for the GOP, don't you think he'd be doing that?

Think about it.

[madaboutharry]

32. The conversations were about Kavanaugh and Trump.

No one was talking about Thomas today. But yes, he is also a liar.

[ehrnst]

49. Well, the same principle applies, Yes?

The idea that what appears to be a choice between "good/bad" is, in reality is a choice between "very frustrating and unsatisfying/exponentially worse" concerning the actual "rule of law."

I trust Pelosi and Nadler to determine what our choice actually is more than anyone alive.

[Duppers]

31. BRAVO❗❗❗

And AMEN!!

[Kurt V.]

33. K&R

[H2O Man]

36. Recommended.

Perhaps, as a last resort, our party should consider following the Constitution. It would, at least in my opinion, be better than ignoring the Constitution, by ignoring the numerous charges that need to be put in place by the House.

[Oppaloopa]

41. Agree

[lunatica]

65. The Constitution will be the acid test in the end

Right now we are living in the throes of critical times so there is a feeling of stagnation on a daily basis, but in time it will be seen and perceived as a time of very rapid change. What seems agonizingly stagnant now will be forgotten completely in less than a generation. The issue will be resolved one way or the other in a relatively short time in historical terms.

I think our Constitution has been in need of revision and updating for many years, if for no other reason than to modernize it to include concepts our Founding Father’s could never have imagined, like the ownership of weapons of mass killing by persons using them to murder fellow Americans in public squares and churches and schools. I believe if any people had gone on a killing spree in the public square or in a church or school there would have been a much heavier consideration of what the words “well regulated militia” mean.

The erosion of the Constitution has been happening for decades with people in power ignoring entire articles and concepts. Right now the separation of powers and of the government and church, which are the very backbone of our chosen Democratic government is being destroyed. In our last election we took a definite step to stop this. That was the moment we stuck our foot in the door. If our momentum continues our next election should be the moment we fling the door open and step into a Democratic future as opposed to just another Dictatorship. Our Constitution which embodies our choice of how we are governed really is at stake right now.

[CaptainTruth]

37. To me it's never been a question of IF he'll be impeached, it's a question of WHEN.

Rushing into it only to have him acquitted by the Senate more than a year before the election means it will be old forgotten news, a non-issue, to average voters when they cast their ballots.

I still believe it's best to do it closer to the election, say, next spring, so impeachment is dominating the headlines while Republicans are try to get reelected. Drown out their reelection messages with news of Trump's crimes, impeachment, & "you (GOP politician) support a criminal POTUS."

If Democrats DON'T impeach before the election, then I'll be disappointed.

[Fiendish Thingy]

42. Times like these make it easy to separate the cowards from the patriots nt

[DallasNE]

43. +1000

Poll politics and the push for the horserace are destroying America. It must end and be replaced by whether an action, like impeachment, is the right thing looked at from the standpoint of right and wrong. Yes, that means you have to frame the debate in terms of right and wrong. You don't start by looking at either the polls or the monetary costs. You start with an evaluation on whether the merit is right or wrong.

[JHB]

44. What's wrong with us? Well, on one side there's an interlocking, highly redundant...

...messaging system that beats a drum 24/7 that Democrats and liberals are criminally corrupt baby-killing socialists that want to take everything from "hard-working real Americans" and give it to darker-skinned people. That if the Democrats and liberals ran the country without absolute die-hard resistance, the US would drive straight into the ground: the mildest version would resemble mid-70s high-tax, high-inflation stagnancy, the more deliciously-depicted darker version paints a vision that can only be described as "The Peoples' Republic of Escape From New York".

Hours-long harangues, all day if you count the tag-teaming of different hosts, on cable, on radio, on internet sites, all of whom are pushing an agenda and don't give a rat's ass about facts. If bullshitting moves people in the direction they want, then bullshit it is, fast and deep. All going out to every corner of the country over thousands of outlets.

Countering that is... as close to bupkis as you can get without actually being there. Liberal and Democratically-leaning centrists don't fund media in any consistent fashion. When they do, it's often preaching-to-the-choir stunts like Tom Steyer's billboards. Mainstream media, after decades of pressure from conservatives, reflexively adopt conservative framing to avoid the appearance of "liberal bias". In the alleged "liberal media", how many actual liberals do you see, and how many are able to talk at length?

It creates the background radiation that create the mantra you note.

[robbob]

56. Yes, thanks for that post!

I’ve noticed that every time the Democratic Party does something good or a Republican is caught doing something awful the media always frames it as “how will the Democrats use this to their political advantage?”. For example, with the Kavanaugh hearings, as all these revelations about his sexual depravity started coming out the media would play the drumbeat of what “political” hay the Democrats would make out of this information. Like, being morally repulsed by the information wasn’t a strong enough reason to object to his appointment to the highest court in the land (the inference being, I suppose, that Liberals have no morals); it’s all just political theatre.

Then on the other side of the fence, whatever Republicans do is always framed as motivated by love of God and country; they get to be the good patriots on tv. It’s sickening. I’ve seen it so many time, but mark my words, next time tRump causes a big fuss by doing or saying something stupid some talking head is going to say “how will Democrat’s use this for political advantage...”. Like morals and basic human values are not reason enough to object to that monster.

[malthaussen]

66. Personally, I'd love to go back to the mid-70s.

If it meant getting rid of Donald Trump and the GOP as they now are, so much the better.

-- Mal

[Nevermypresident]

48. Thank you for this OP. I 100% concur.

Let's just say I've been disappointed.

[gulliver]

51. Not impeaching can easily be seen as defending the Constitution in this case.

It's not "supporting and defending the Constitution" to knowingly allow it to be trampled by brazen Republican abuse of power in the Senate should they block the conviction of a clearly guilty Trump. It's not just the Democrats who could lose if we act recklessly. The Constitution would lose too.

The case for impeachment has to be open and shut. It has to be so strong that there can be no question that voters would side with the Dems when Senate Republicans acquit Trump.

[MadDAsHell]

52. Nothing is more important than the personal political ambitions/futures of current officeholders.

Never believe that the future of this country is more important than the political ambitions of our elected leaders; you're only kidding yourself.

[Kid Berwyn]

58. Politicians need jobs, too.

Beats digging ditches and requires many of the same qualifications.

It seems, by tabling the impeachment business, the Dems hope to survive the coming tabling of the Constitution.

[spanone]

57. K&R...👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

[athena]

67. They are setting a terrible precedent by letting Trump get away with breaking the law.

We may get a Democratic president in 2020, but if nothing is done to either punish Trump, or to ensure that no other president is allowed to do what he is getting away with, there will be a much worse Republican president in 2024 or 2028. In many ways, Trump's stupidity is limiting the damage, but every day that passes is an advertisement for all the sociopaths out there that the presidency of the United States is an excellent way to enrich oneself and one's family at the expense of the American taxpayer.