All those who argue against impeachment do so for one reason alone.

[shockey80]

Fear, fear of what might happen, not what will happen. People fear impeachment because it might help Trump and hurt the Democrats in the election. They do not know if that will happen. People fear impeachment because the Senate will not convict. When it comes to impeachment the Senate is not relevant. It is separate from impeachment.

When people make a decision based on the fear of what might happen, they become static, frozen in time. From that moment on they just go along for the ride and hope for the best. It is a dangerous way of making decisions.

When it comes to the decision of impeaching or not impeaching Trump we know certain things will happen. That's what we should be focused on.

If we do not impeach Trump we know a very dangerous precedent will be set, The normalization of Trumps crimes. Any future president could take full advantage and repeat Trumps crimes. There will also be no official record of all of Trumps impeachable crimes. The Democrats would also be breaking their oath of office.

Some people have suggested after we vote Trump out of office we can then hold him accountable for all his crimes. That is wishful thinking, hope. The politics of doing that may not be feasible. Imagine the Democrats do not impeach Trump, win the Whitehouse and then use the Justice Dept. to go after Trump for his crimes they did not impeach. That would get ugly. When Trump leaves office the best we can hope for is State charges on tax, bank fraud.

If we do impeach Trump the Articles of impeachment become a permanent record of all Trumps crimes. It will protect us from setting a dangerous precedent. The Articles of impeachment will read like a horror movie. If the Democrats decide to send the Articles to the Senate, they will all have to vote and that will become part of the permanent record.

I have fear like everyone else, however I try to fear what I know will happen, not what may happen. Impeach that motherfucker.

[dalton99a]

1. Why are we allowing a criminal traitor to finish his term(s) without even a blemish on his record?

[c-rational]

31. +1

[oldsoftie]

51. His record IS the blemish.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Plus, what about this scenario:

We don't impeach b/c we don't want to sabotage the 2020 election for Congress, the Senate, and President.

But what if the fix is already in and even though we have the majority votes for all three bodies of government, the machines show that Republicans win across the board, meaning no chance for impeachment after the 2020 general election. If we wait, who knows if the opportunity will exist after the election?

[bearsfootball516]

5. If the fix is in, it doesn't matter if Democrats impeach or not.

Regardless of whether or not Dems impeach, he'll be here in 2020. Senate isn't going to convict. I'm not saying that as an argument against impeachment, I'm just making the point.

[sharedvalues]

47. Yes- get the Republicans ON RECORD

Force a vote

[yuiyoshida]

108. You know if he wins again....

He may NEVER want to leave office.. why should he, prison awaits... Than we really do have a problem.

[enid602]

133. tRump

Remember how bin Laden’s parents and other rich/royal Saudis were allowed to fly out of the US on 9/12/01? I imagine a similar arrangement will be made for the entire tRump family. And all that money he used his position to grift? I’m thinking quite a bit of that’s been offshored.

[yuiyoshida]

135. He will probably go to Russia

or maybe the country his wife is from.

[DeeNice]

152. I'm good with that as long as they're not allowed back...

No seriously, I've thought about this and wondered whether the Secret Service would be required to bring them in if criminal charges were brought.

[Mr.Bill]

70. In that scenario, 2020 is our last election.

That is, if there is even an election in 2020.

[Falcata]

72. There will be an election in 2020

and 2022, 2024 etc etc... don't start conspiracy theories

[standingtall]

83. They still have elections in Russia too

it is not a conspiracy theory that Trump and republicans will attempt to cheat or rig elections to their benefit it is a reality that must be dealt with.

[zentrum]

100. And our last Supreme Court.

[DownriverDem]

114. What about

the fact that only 30 some percent want trump impeached while the rest want trump voted out of office? Here in Michigan our Dem Secretary of State has said she will protect our elections.

[RKP5637]

3. Worse case, no impeachment, tRump wins, says democrats are weak and ineffective and could

not even impeach him (used in campaign), showed no will, Ruth Ginsburg dies, another RW Justice goes to SCOTUS, Senate wins, country moves forward to a full RW Corporatocracy, more RW judges are appointed. Looks like WTF, but could be close to reality. This is where we are headed IMO on the current course. tRump's actions will become the norm for a presidency.

Best case, dem wins the presidency.

[pangaia]

28. I agree that is where we are headed....

[mountain grammy]

96. shut down of independent news media..

and independent social media, investigations into opponents, arrests, convictions, executions; I believe all this and more will be our future under Trump and republicans..

Impeach the motherfucker!

[RKP5637]

98. Need to drive a stake into the ground and say this is is, impeach. We know the Senate will not

go along, but at least it will be documented for the record and history. Right now in history IMO it will look like the democrats did nothing. I still think millions and millions of Americans just do not comprehend where we are headed if he wins in 2020. He will be on infinite steroids if he wins in 2020. It will be horrific. Yep!!! "Impeach the motherfucker!"

[wasupaloopa]

4. You don't know what people are thinking.

We can’t have an impeachment now.

There are not enough votes. There are no material witnesses.

I could say those wanting impeachment now don’t know what the hell is going on right in front of their noses.

[shockey80]

7. Pelosi can get the votes if she wants to.

The democrats will follow her lead.

[dalton99a]

9. Precisely.

[Liberty Belle]

39. Exactly. The future of our nation is at stake.

I agree completely that the House has an absolute duty to impeach at this point. If not the Constitution is no more valuable than toilet paper.

If the Reps won't convict then hang that around their necks at the election with commercials airing the evidence over and over that Trump is a traitor and the GOP leadership is complicit.

[Jakes Progress]

67. To what end?

Democrats vote to impeach. It goes to the Senate where moscow mitch and john roberts will be in charge of saying who will and who won't testify. The country will not hear any damning evidence about trump. It will not be allowed. mitch and roberts will control witnesses and documents. The senate will acquit trump and he will campaign on his "proven" innocence and that the Democrats are trying to take over the government.

You will get a rush when the indictment is brought just like we got when we heard that Mueller was going to testify. Then look what happened. An impeachment without 20 honest republican senators is a farce and the thing donald most wants. It won't make a lot of difference in the presidential race, but in the backward parts of the country where many representatives and senators are elected, the knuckle draggers who are tiring of trump's ways will rally behind him to defend him from the nasty Democrats.

Why do so many people think they are smarter than Nancy Pelosi? Do you think she wants trump in office?

[Qutzupalotl]

109. Roberts will lead the Senate trial. Mitch gets one vote.

The country will already know the charges and will hear the evidence at trial. Republican Senators, some facing reelection, will be forced to say publicly that high crimes are not impeachable, that clear violations of the Constitution are just fine, and to vote against what they said they stood for: the rule of law.

Granted, most elected Republicans are rank hypocrites and comfortable with duplicity. We may peel away a few brave ones, probably not 20, but that is not for Congress to second guess. The House has its own duty to defend the Constitution from this outrageous daily assault, damn the consequences.

[Pachamama]

123. +100000

Exactly why it’s important for the House to impeach and there to be a trial - regardless of outcome

[Jakes Progress]

137. roberts will preside. mitch will run the show.

The country already knows trump is a crook. Your desire to make republicans say that trump is innocent is childish. What world so you live in to think that conscience or morality motivates people who have already turned a blind eye or even given strong support for exactly the things trump will be tried on?

It will be a spectacle and, just as it did after the kavanaugh hearings, will motivate trump supporters to turn out to get the liberals. Many of those who wear those hats and identify as trumpers are privately tired of him. They would never vote for a commie liberal Democrat, but they will be nauseated from trump enough to just not go to the polls. Spend the next year revving them up, and they will turn out in droves.

Listen to Nancy. She knows more than you do. It is vital to the country that we keep the House and win the Senate. And we need to vote the asshat out of office. Then let New York put him in jail.

[Qutzupalotl]

138. Republican Senators fear Trump

and privately resent having to kowtow to him. If they see a clean shot to take him out, I think some will take it, though as I said, 20 is a very high bar.

I don’t think getting Republicans to vote one way or the other on the rule of law is childish. I will find it quite satisfying. Besides, it’s their constitutional duty, like it’s the constitutional duty of the House to impeach a lawless tyrant.

Listen to Nancy yourself. She’s on at 5 p.m.

[Jakes Progress]

139. Losing the House is a high price to pay

for making you quite satisfied.

It seems Nancy is going to give it a shot. Is she your hero now. She will do her best with he hand that vested interests have given her. I hope she make it. It is a long shot. Now instead of the election being a referendum on trump, it will be a referendum on Nancy Peolosi's impeachment. I don't know where you live, but the knuckle draggers in my state that were getting tired of trump will be up in arms at anything that Nancy Pelosi wants. They don't care what happens to the country. They just don't want Nancy/Hillary to get their way.

You get your spectacle. The News guys get their ratings. The congress people who called for impeachment get to crow to their partisan crowd. The most rewarded though are the republicans in tight races in purple districts. This will turn out their base like nothing else.

A lot to give up for a brief moment of self-righteous euphoria.

[Qutzupalotl]

141. or following the Constitution, YMMV.

I love watching traitors squirm, don’t you?

[Jakes Progress]

146. I don't want him to squirm.

I want him in jail. I want barr disbarred.

You and I differ about how we feel the outcome of impeachment will turn out. I'm not as blasé or unconcerned about the danger of trump serving another four years as you seem to be. Perhaps you are surrounded by blue districts. I dwell among maghats. Like poisonous snakes, they are less problematic if you leave them undisturbed.

[Qutzupalotl]

145. It is naive to expect the next election will be fair

if this president is left unchecked.

We don’t know what will happen. We might as well do the right thing and defend the country from a dire existential threat — a traitor elected President.

To dither about political calculations at this point is to ignore the oath of office each member takes.

Let your neighbors watch witness after witness recount Trump’s abuse of office. That “spectacle” will convince ordinary citizens their country is on the line. It is.

Without the integrity of our elections we cease to be a republic.

[Jakes Progress]

147. I never said to leave him unchecked.

If, as you propose, we can easily get 20 or so republican senators to vote for impeachment, we should be able to pass legislation to protect our balloting. In other words, if you can't get them to vote for election reform, you certainly can't get them to vote for impeachment.

I'm a poll watcher in my district? You?

[Qutzupalotl]

148. I never said it would be easy.

I said we likely won’t get 20 Republican Senators, but that shouldn’t matter to the House.

Take off your D hat for a moment and just look at the situation as an American. It is intolerable that a traitor was installed by a foreign mobster. Every day Trump attacks the Constitution and dares us to do something about it.

I’m in a very red corner of a blue state, so I understand not wanting to make the gun owners mad. But dammit, we are right. They are wrong. Republicans don’t get to flout the law and still call all the shots. We are on the strongest possible legal grounds, the Constitution itself. We have a clear duty before us. And we must not fear to do the right thing.

If we stand up and fight for what we believe in we might win a few converts. But if we even appear to be afraid or unsure, we signal to the red hats that we don’t really believe what we are saying and are not to be trusted.

The impeachment process will lay out the facts of each count of misconduct for the American people clearly. It will be news every night for weeks, and that will help the people understand the extent of Trump’s disdain for the law. Senators will have to explain their vote for or against each count, and then have to go home and explain it to their constituents. That is how the system should work.

This is not 1998 and Trump is not Clinton. Gingrich imploded because he led an actual witch hunt. Trump repeats “witch hunt” but then goes out and commits high crimes!

We have solid evidence, corroboration and even two public confessions, for Christ’s sake.

So have no fear. The corruption show is just getting started, and it will open the public’s eyes.

[Jakes Progress]

150. I wear my D hat because I'm an American.

We both agree that the orange stain should not only go, but be in jail.

We disagree about how to do that and on the danger of self-righteous indignation. You seem to feel that as long as we can say we were right to do something, it must be done. If you knew for a fact that impeachment would lead to a second term for trump and the loss of both houses of Congress, would you still advocate that feeling good about ourselves is all that matters.

If you knew that trump would lose the election and Democrats would take the Senate if we did not impeach, would you still advocate for that action?

I had high hopes for the Mueller investigation. It is so completely obvious the number of times that trump broke the law and misused his office. But look what came of that travesty. I had high hopes that kavanaugh's appointment was dead, but look what happened.

I have come to lack faith in the machinations of our political elite. As little as ten years ago, you could have counted on the rule of law to prevail eventually in these things. It requires more finesse and savvy to get things done now. Simply stamping our feet and demanding justice is a futile and childish action in these times. Not to mention naive. Too much is at stake to think only of ourselves.

[Qutzupalotl]

153. I'm thinking of the nation, not of myself.

I repeat WE DO NOT KNOW and cannot know that impeachment will lead to a second Trump term. But I do know the House took an oath to defend the Constitution, and must.

You wear your D hat because you are a partisan. I am too. That’s fine on a partisan website. But we have to think about the whole country now, not just our party.

As Mueller reported, there are many ways to influence an election. Not all of them will be apparent to poll watchers. Voter rolls can be manipulated. Social media can be flooded with misinformation. Electricity can be cut off at polling stations. Trump is actively seeking foreign help in subverting the next election, and that cannot stand.

This transcends party and any personal interests. We can survive a President Pence if we have to. We cannot survive without elections. It is as simple as that.

[Jakes Progress]

154. You should read the posts to which you reply.

It would make your comments more cogent.

[Qutzupalotl]

155. You should try argument instead of insult.

It would make your posts helpful instead of worthless.

[stopdiggin]

79. highly doubtful. and an effort to strong arm

would without any shadow of a doubt incur harm. to the Democratic House, the party, the party structure, and the Speaker.
(not ruling out the scenario you suggest .. at some future point .. given more public support. right now? it's still a false assumption. and a bad idea.)

[KPN]

84. Yup. The OP is correct. This is all about fear

... and it will result in the absolute worst outcome in my view if we don’t stand up and do the right thing by opening an “impeachment inquiry” right now.

[dansolo]

111. So you want Nancy Pelosi to strong-arm support for impeachment?

That is the way of Republicans.

[Maraya1969]

8. How many votes would we have if the speaker of the house came out in favor of it?

Too many people are just following her lead.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

12. the witnesses are the news reports since 2016

[spanone]

54. ...and the mueller report.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

81. yup. ITTMFA!

[spanone]

91. this has got to end.

[KPN]

85. And the witnesses in the Mueller grand juriesss

well as witnesses who are subpoenas and testify in the impeachment proceedings. No witnesses is false.

[Sinistrous]

14. Right. Gotta protect the emperor.

Even if you build the wall around “him” using bricks made of bullshit.

[not_the_one]

20. once impeachment is started we get access TO those witnesses and documents

We don't, they continue to stall.

We do, then the courts have to weigh in on whether the turd can continue to obstruct, without repercussions.

If the courts won't stand up, we're lost anyway. (I am really concerned as to WHY they haven't weighed in yet. WHY haven't the suits been presented yet? How long does it take for the process to get to the point where a judge weighs in? Time is running out.)

We impeach, at least we show SOME guts, backbone.

If the democrats do nothing, we show we are just as weak as the republicans say we are, and are done as a party. If the rolls were reversed, you can bet your ass the republicans wouldn't be standing aside doing nothing. Just look at what they are doing NOW! They are shitting on the constitution, and boasting about it.

[Pachamama]

124. +100000

In addition, if the Dems are perceived as weak because they don’t impeach, the blue wave that brought the house majority for the Democrats will not be repeated and then it is over.

The fear that has Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats not pursuing impeachment full steam ahead will ultimately be their undoing and self fulfilling prophecy

[StarfishSaver]

130. How does that work?

Please explain.

[PufPuf23]

41. Rhetorically are you saying that Democrats that are for impeachment are libtards?

Sort of sounds like that. Please no offense that is not my intent, we just disagree on how to proceed.

We are not in good place. If we fail to impeach Trump, I would wager Trump will win the 2020 election fair or by cheating.

IMHO impeachment without a Senate conviction is better politically (especially for 2020 elections) for the Democratic party than no impeachment.

[certainot]

50. i'm thinking the really stupid part is how much of the reluctance is based on

the ignorance of the major player in all this - talk radio

this is a the talk raido president with the talk radio base and the talk radio party

it's the ONLY unique advantage they have because it is ignored by those it attacks so the city-dwelling media and politicians believe the ruse that a few hundred assholes on the radio and their well coordinated made to order constituencies and an apathetic half-assed secondary and tertiary audience that receives the buzz that dominates 40 states is something to worry about. a fearsome base - it's bullshit. all dems have to do is stop ignoring it and put a rush tattoo on trumps forehead and that of any other republican pol and media hack who repeats their bullshit. if it came out of limbaiugh's ass after being fed by putin or some rw think tank it should be called that way. instead the democrats and media think it's legitimate and have 'concern'

[Ztolkins]

56. Then let everybody defend their votes

In fucking public. Sick of this shit.

Excuses, excuses, excuses.

Do your damn job, Pelosi.

[KPN]

86. +1!

[AllyCat]

65. My greatest fear is we will not win in 2020.

And I don’t think it is unfounded. No one thought 2016 could happen and it did. We have done NOTHING to secure our elections. Putin is and will do it again. At the very least, we need to have a record of what went down in 45’s treasonous reign. Congress is Constitutionally charged with this task. They need to uphold the rule of law or we shouldn’t even bother thinking this is any longer a democracy.

[KPN]

87. Exactly. We are fiddling while Rome burns unless

we impeach. Taking false security in not facing our fears, in making calculations based on unsupported beliefs. It’s frankly kind of irrational: let’s not do the right thing because it might not work out (when knowing not doing the right thing absolutely won’t work out in the long run — the GOP will just find another criminal who might be a bit smarter next time around and succeed at creating a one party government).

[Gore1FL]

103. And it isn't like we are making a case for using power.

Republicans don't do the right thing because they don't care. When Democrats don't do the right thing because they are afraid there is little difference in the outcome.

[JonAndKatePlusABird]

105. Certainly no witnesses in the tri-state area

What am I saying, it’s not like his hometown hates him or anything. Not like his entire life has been one of cheating and screwing people over. Really really sucks the dems can’t find any witnesses. Shucks!

[Maraya1969]

6. What can we, as regular citizens do to make sure that doesn't happen?

Nancy Pelosi does not deserve her position of speaker of the house if she is not going to do what is necessary and right under the US constitution. When can someone who will fulfill those conditions, that they all swore to uphold run against her so we can have a working Congress?

Because it is not just fear of doing something. I and I am sure plenty of others are living in fear about what is happening in our country now. We have never been in this situation before. The closest thing that I can think of to what is happening to us now is Nazi Germany. And we know the Nazis gained power because good people did nothing.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

11. Pelosi can't do it alone; call Reps, educate your neighbors

Impeachment can't happen until there are enough votes in the House.

BTW, ITTMFA!

[RKP5637]

15. Agree!!! "The closest thing that I can think of to what is happening to us now is Nazi Germany.

And we know the Nazis gained power because good people did nothing."
They thought it was a fad and would eventually just go away!

[SMC22307]

10. "Voting Trump out of office" may be...

wishful thinking. I mean, look at the cultists in North Carolina. His poll numbers are low in PA, MI and WI so those voters, at least, seem to have wisened up. We need PA, MI and WI. NC, not so much. But it would be nice to have those electoral votes like we did during Obama's first term. How's Fat Nixon doing in Florida? Slavish devotion or are Floridians seeing the light?

[Guilded Lilly]

13. The Cretin will lie and bullshit no matter what is tried. Make the jerk...

Have a permanent hit in written history. Throw everything possible to tarnish his name and wound his ego, make his legacy one of corruption, lies and classless indecency.
Hit him where it will hurt him the most.
For decency, morality and what is left of the dignity of our nation.

[pangaia]

29. It's REPUBLICANS who need to be hit. NOTHING will harm trump..

[Guilded Lilly]

53. Hit them all! The Cretin responds to any slight to his ego. Batter it!

[ArcticFox]

16. Don't know

Don't know it I could have said it any better.

And what else will happen if Democrats don't impeach? More of their pay supporters will become more disillusioned with the party, and less will vote.

[Scarsdale]

17. List all his crimes.

Have the gop explain WHY he does not deserve impeachment, when Clinton did for a minor personal indiscretion? Clinton did not put the country at risk, did not praise dictators, did not break any laws. tRump has done so much worse, personally than Clinton ever did. On top of that, he is a traitor. Have the gop defend THAT. Previous presidents can travel anywhere in the world, and are welcomed (maybe not W so much) They are respected. tRump is despised here and overseas.

[COLGATE4]

18. After watching the performance of Democratic legislators

when holding 'hearings' I have zero confidence in successfully holding impeachment hearings. We just don't have the Repubs' zest for an all out, no holds barred, blood on the floor fight. While they are constrained by absoljtely NO morals, ethics, rules or law we on the other hand are overscrupulous in our zeal to show that 'we are different', 'we respect the rules', etc. etc. And, as a consequence we get hammered time after time after time and our leaders appear at best ineffectual. We don't bring a knife to a gun fight - we bring a water pistol. Because of this I fear that impeachment would be a disaster for us in the 2020 election.

[RKP5637]

44. You make some very good points. The democrats basically follow the rules and expect the system to

work. The republicans are ruthless and attack from every corner and could give a shit about the system. In essence, as you said: " We don't bring a knife to a gun fight - we bring a water pistol." Sadly, we are living in very abnormal and dangerous times. Old approaches just might not work as well today. I think the democrats need to be more ruthless and take some very gallant risky chances. Otherwise, I fear we are stuck in a rut!

[COLGATE4]

92. I couldn't agree with you more. As you very succinctly put it

we are living in a very abnormal time - a time where the person selected to be the President of the United States and who is supposed to embody the characteristics that set this nation apart from so many other is instead the embodiment of "L'Etat c'est moi" and believes that any concession to law or ethics makes one a "loser". I truly believe that, unless we are more ruthless or, to be more colloquial until we grow a set of balls we are going to see something in 2020 that makes 2016 look like Hillary's coronation.
'

"

[Ligyron]

104. Unpresidented lawlessness.

What's happening is complete disrespect for our institutions and democratic norms not just some minor policy or philosophical difference. This is an all hands on deck emergency and if we don't get serious and stop this by any means necessary, historians will look back at this as the point we lost our experiment in Democracy and became no longer a Republic but a dictatorship.

Gird your fucking loins and get serious Democratic legislators or we are history. You can start with articles of impeachment.

[COLGATE4]

112. Well said.

[paleotn]

19. I far more afraid of what will happen if we don't.

[triron]

21. Similar to what happened with Chamberlain.

[shockey80]

23. Exactly.

[ecstatic]

22. Amen! The worst part is trump *knows* they're afraid!

He knows he can do anything he wants to because they're not going to impeach, make any arrests or do anything extreme. He knows he's above the law now. This is completely unacceptable!

Do not ask loyal democrats to sacrifice our beliefs and principles in the hopes of attracting rethug votes. If you can't protect us when it truly matters, what are you good for? What's the point??

Hell, don't do it for me, do it for the people who have been killed, caged, permanently separated, or traumatized/terrorized since 2017!

[still_one]

24. What if they impeach but fail to convict? Will the talking point be that Trump was exonerated?

Can a sitting president be indicted? If the answer is yes, that would be the path I would prefer, because it would take the Republican obstruction out of the equation

[shockey80]

26. Fear!

[still_one]

35. FIRST, thanks for NOT answering my question? I will ask it again. If they fail to convict WILL IT

BE VIEWED AS TRUMP WAS EXONERATED?

When Clinton was impeached, but not convicted, how was it viewed?

When Nixon was impeached, he resigned because it was certain he would be convicted?

Question two?

Can a sitting President be indicted?

If so, that is the way we should go

[PufPuf23]

48. Nixon was never impeached, he resigned when it look certain he would be impeached

by the House and convicted by the Senate.

Good topic because:

"An impeachment process against Richard Nixon was formally initiated on February 6, 1974, when the United States House of Representatives passed a resolution, H.Res. 803, giving its Judiciary Committee authority to investigate whether sufficient grounds existed to impeach Richard Nixon, the 37th President of the United States[1] of high crimes and misdemeanors, primarily related to the Watergate scandal. This investigation was undertaken one year after the United States Senate established a select committee to investigate the 1972 break-in at the Democratic National Committee headquarters at the Watergate office complex in Washington, D.C., and the Nixon Administration's attempted cover-up of its involvement.

cut

Nixon is one of only three U.S. presidents against whom articles of impeachment have been reported to the full House for consideration. The other two—Andrew Johnson in 1868 and Bill Clinton in 1998—were both impeached; however, both were also acquitted from all charges following a Senate trial, and thus allowed to remain in office. The impeachment process against Nixon is the only one resulting in the departure from office of its target. "

More at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_process_against_Richard_Nixon

The step that needs to be taken is a 2019 Trump version of HR 803 to be passed by the House. While the Judiciary Committee is investigating now, the current Judiciary Committee does not have the cover of HR 803 and all it entails.

[still_one]

49. Thanks, and appreciate the correction on Nixon

[PufPuf23]

52. I am glad to be able to occasionally add something to DU

over and above opinion or anecdote, granted using wiki as a source is pretty weak. lol

[still_one]

68. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[standingtall]

74. If we don't impeach Trump could that also be viewd as exonating him?

"Can a sitting President be indicted?"

Even if one could that would be a lengthy court battle and would not be resolved until long after 2020 and the house of representatives can't criminally indict anyone anyway. They can impeach him. If there are some state prosecutors that want to challenge DOJ policies on this in the courts nothing is stopping them.

[KPN]

88. WTF? That's already the frigging talking point!

Geezuz!

[TCJ70]

117. There are two ways Trump handles it:

- "Of course I'm innocent. Even the Democrats didn't impeach me because they knew it was all a hoax!"
- "My friends in the Senate cleared me even after the Democrats impeached me."

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have the second.

[yaesu]

25. we are 100 percent sure that the senate will not follow through and we aren't 100 percent sure

the house will impeach, and we know tRump and the fascists will brag about it afterwards, see, I'm innocent. But, we need to go through the process, put all of tRumps dirty laundry out for everyone to see, we must do it or we have lost all hope of ever seeing a democracy again.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

27. Well stated. I can think of other reasons to

be against it too though.

[Saint PeLSU]

30. I think they're more afraid of what his radicalized white supremacist base would do...

For me that's easier to swallow than the thought of dems worrying about winning an election by inaction.

[mountain grammy]

32. This administration breaks the law everyday

Impeach the motherfucker.

[RKP5637]

45. K&R!!! n/t

[NightWatcher]

33. There's a duty to impeach at this point. Just like a firefighter has a duty to run into a burning

building.

Congress has a responsibility spelled out in the Constitution to do their job and part of that job is defending against attack, not waiting until it's politically expedient and favorable to do so.

Firefighters run into buildings every day, not knowing if they'll ever come out, but it's their job.

[shockey80]

38. You really nailed it, thank you.

[cwydro]

71. This.

Well put.

[Pachamama]

125. +100000

The Democrats get two shots at putting the fire out. The problem is they think the one shot they should use is not their constitutional one and impeach and then follow (regardless of trial in Senate outcome) because they think this will fail with the “2nd shot” of election. They have it all wrong- they can’t let this “fire” rage and let it get worse with the hope of an election win in 2020. Do they think an impeachment without a conviction means they will lose Democrats to voting? Seriously? Do they think that Republicans will come out in droves and vote? Seriously?

They are also operating on the assumption that everything between now and the remains static and similar conditions. What if we are in a major world war in next 12 months? What if there is an emergency declaration of powers and certain rights suspended? A terrorist act of war (blamed on Iran) made upon the US with many dead citizens and even members of Congress?

What if finally, the Dems thinking the “one shot” solution of “election 2020 is similar to now thinking the “fire” will be put out with the one fire truck - because they falsely assume it works? Because they are basing it on the premise that there is election integrity- which there is not.

Then what?



That is what they should be afraid of...not impeachment without conviction.

[Bettie]

136. Just what you wrote there

thanks for that.

[ecstatic]

140. So perfectly stated! +∞ nt

[BlueWI]

142. Bravo!

Perfectly put.

[BarbD]

34. The game of "What if?" and the danger of counting the votes.......

If we never played a football, baseball or basketball game because we might lose there would be no sports. However, experience shows us that a determined team who works hard, practices and plays as a team can overcome a stronger opponent. We need to focus on the moment.

You're right "Impeach the motherfucker."

[shockey80]

37. Good post.

[Odoreida]

36. He's a criminal and should be nailed for his crimes.

However, we ought to have a plan in place for thwarting President Pence.

In my opinion, even worse on civil rights than Trump.

[Liberty Belle]

40. The Senate won't convict so there won't be a Pres. Pence, but we should still impeach.

Make them all look like the dirty traitors that they are.

[shockey80]

42. A president Pence would be like a church picnic compared to Trump.

Get it.

[RKP5637]

46. Exactly!!! n/t

[dalton99a]

55. Pence may pose a threat if he injects himself with rabies and meth

[mysteryowl]

43. Thank you!

IMPEACH !!
THAT
MF

[INdemo]

57. No impeachemnt we lose our Democracy,that is whats left of it

because Democrats will lose control of the house

[Fiendish Thingy]

58. Times like these clearly separate cowards from patriots nt

[Jakes Progress]

63. Yeah. Just like the "patriots" who gave us nixon.

What you call a patriot is someone who wants the world to go their way regardless of the consequences, the hell with who it will hurt.

What you call a coward is someone who will forego the immediate pleasure of satisfying their temporary desire in order to bring about a more permanent outcome.

If you can say those who dance for a shiny spectacle patriots and those who have the wisdom and forbearance to actually plan for the country cowards, then I can call one group uninformed children and the other group sacrificing heroes.

Don't go calling DU members names just because they disagree with you.

[Fiendish Thingy]

93. Patriots are those who stand for, speak out and act on Constitutional principals

Rather than craven, calculated, cowardly political risk management.

[Baked Potato]

59. Is there not fear in the "impeach now" folks too?

Fear that our chosen candidate will falter and not beat Trump?

Fear that Americans re-elect Trump?

Fear that Russia, or other bad actors will again interfere?

And those fears may be driving the “get him out now, while we can” point of view. The real bad crimes of Trump are still being processed in secret facilities with real investigators and real prosecutors. This latest exposed deed of the POS is a just a gaffe compared to what is coming, IMO.

Impeachment won’t be a magic wand that we wave and all the world will crash down on Trump. All the investigations won’t suddenly be over with reams of charges against him. All the bad actors won’t throw up their hands and say, “you got me”. The state charges are probably the best we will get with him. If it just turns out that all he goes down for is tax and bank fraud I would be happy to see him locked up for that. But, I think there will be much more.

[shockey80]

60. No, I do not fear impeachment at all.

[Baked Potato]

69. Trump would welcome impeachment, it's WIN WIN

If he’s impeached by the House and the Senate votes NO, he wins because he’s stronger. Witch Hunt!

If he’s impeached by the House and the Senate votes YES, he wins because it saves him from resigning or a humiliating defeat in 2020.

IMO, he doesn’t want to be president. He wants out.

He can resign, but won’t. Too embarrassing and he admits failure.

He gets voted out. Most humiliating, Americans calling him a failure.

He gets impeached out. Best for him, can blame deep state.

As I stated in a lengthy essay to H2O man recently, if the dam breaks and all the crimes come in time to impeach, I’ll support that 100%.

[shockey80]

75. No.

[TCJ70]

118. No. It's about accountability and making use of power while you have it.

Does anyone disagree that Trump has earned impeachment? I really don't think so. Democrats have the power to push some sort of accountability on the president. Use it. If you aren't willing to use the tools that you have, what does that say about you?

I'm also sure that there's not a "get him out now" attitude since impeachment doesn't automatically result in removal so I'm not sure where that's coming from. The Senate will never convict in its current state.

[Baked Potato]

121. I agree he has earned impeachment

He’s earned more than that for sure. I can see too he is very powerful and sly and cunning. He has people working for him who’s only job is to help I’m evade jail. We have one try at taking him down. And, it *is* political. He will find some way to make impeachment work for him. Nancy said she wants him in prison. That’s pitifully profound. I think the GOP is going to be trapped by sticking with him. Especially the Senate.

[TCJ70]

122. He will try to make impeachment work for him...and he will definitely...

...make not getting impeached work for him. So it doesn’t matter what he’s going to do because it’s the same either way. Democrats need to do what’s right, not what they believe is politically expedient, because they could be wrong.

[reACTIONary]

61. Fear! Or Maybe...

.... reason? The American people are not yet convinced.

Over the past few months, House Democrats have been building support for impeachment within the caucus. But they haven’t brought the American people with them.

Even as nearly two-thirds of Democratic members favor impeaching President Donald Trump or at least opening an impeachment inquiry, a new POLITICO/Morning Consult poll shows they haven’t made the sale to voters. Only 37 percent support beginning impeachment proceedings, while half oppose it. Just 12 percent of voters are undecided.


https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/18/house-democrats-trump-impeachment-poll-1500741

[CentralMass]

89. A unfied Democratic leadership would help. We see Nadler and Schiff speaking out making the case

but Nancy Pelosi, IMO, is working to keep house members from stating it is time to impeach and Chuck Schumer doesn't seem to be saying much at all.

Am I missing something or just naive ? A unified message from the Democratic leadership calling out trumps misdeeds should be happening. Joint press conferences or releases should be happening on a regular basis because IMO they are, on the whole, losing the battle of making a case against Trump publicly .

They seem to be keeping their powder dry and banking on the election.

[MustBeTheBooz]

62. KnR

Well stated, Shockey. Thank you for this. Funny the “DEM Leadership Can Do NO Wrong” crowd are fairly silent on this thread.

[NNadir]

64. I agree absolutely and totally. n/t.

[VOX]

66. Ironically, it's putting party before country by NOT impeaching that monster.

If the reason to not impeach is some fear-based notion that it’ll ruin Democrats’ chances in 2020. The Trump-enabling Republicans, Putin, the Ukraine, and who-knows-who-else are already stacking the deck.

Are we a nation of LAWS or not? Republicans don’t give a shit about the law, or rules, or fair play. This is now a war against everything this country claims to hold sacred.

Is Trump above the law? So far, yes. The things he’s gotten away with (in broad daylight) are absolutely astonishing. The U.S. is in complete upheaval, and there he sits, like a downmarket Mussolini, while each passing week brings several new crises.

IMPEACH THE MF NOW.

[Hortensis]

73. Retweeted by Sally Albright:

Link to tweet

Of course, we want to REMOVE Trump from office in disgrace long before 2020, with Republican voters demoralized with low turnout in 2020, instead of all but marching in the streets in outrage, and we will do that if we can.

[empedocles]

127. Thank you.

[Hortensis]

129. :), TY. Repubs-Russia can't have it all their own way.

[LonePirate]

76. Anybody against impeachment does not care about the Constitution or the present.

They also don't care about justice, apparently.

[JI7]

77. people here were freaking out during the Lewandowski hearings

[Snackshack]

78. Agreed.

The precedent set by not impeaching DT will have disastrous consequences in the future for the rule of law and the behavior of future presidents.

[Pachamama]

126. What will then qualify for impeachment?

I shudder at the thought....

[Snackshack]

134. Your guess is as good...

As mine.

From a historical stand point the impeachment threshold was crossed long ago. But this admin is unlike any other admins or congress in our 240+ yr history.

At the end of the day dt may very well get away with everything. I hope not but impeachment requires courage to do what is right and lawful not what is popular or unpopular and rt now the popularity contest is winning and rule of law is losing.

[melm00se]

80. While this observation and interpretation

of impeachment will not be popular but...

Impeachment of federal officials, especially the president, should not be misunderstood as a judicial event but rather a political one. This is exactly why impeachment proceedings are not subject to any sort of judicial review or oversight.

This interpretation was unanimously upheld by the Supreme Court in Nixon v. United States, 506 U.S. 224 (1993).

This is something the Speaker understands.

[Catch2.2]

82. This is why...

People call Democrats weak. Why are they so scared?!

If they are scared that trying to Impeach Trump will help get him reelected, I will tell you that not bringing up impeachment will guarantee he will get reelected!

[Lady Freedom Returns]

90. Don't care if...

Impeach, indict, vote out or 25th amendment his rear! As long as he's out!

[treestar]

94. Fear can be rational - like fear of a second term of his

Would be such a disaster. Quit on Pelosi and question the Senators, especially Republicans, on whether they would vote to convict in the presence of enough evidence that Drumpf did the things for which he would be impeached.

[Skittles]

95. I am starting to put them on Ignore

I am sick of their excuses

[pwb]

97. Bull. Speak for yourself.

.

[Ponietz]

99. Bingo

[Sudsy]

101. It seems that when Democrats

win an election, they spend the time between elections more concerned with losing the next one than winning it.

[McKim]

102. It is the Fear of a Battered Wife

Amen. This is the fear of a battered wife. Keep your head down so they will stop beating you. But they will beat, bully and attack no matter what we do.

[Joe941]

106. History will judge us for our inaction.

[cwydro]

110. This.

Absolutely.

[dweller]

107. i'm just gonna leave this here ...

4 terms, and scared the 💩 outa the repugs ... but this is from the 1st term


https://m.

this is how to think about it ...

✌🏼

[RandiFan1290]

113. Same group that said we had to support the Iraq invasion

or the cons might say something bad about us

[tavernier]

115. And I would say that all those who argue for impeachment

are tone deaf to reality. Presently we are not the party in power and pushing for an impeachment that will not pass will only give them a good argument in the future election.
Continue to educate, and defy their efforts to destroy every positive thing our country stands for. People are seeing and listening. And focus our energy on replacing them all in 2020.

[RobinA]

143. Yeah, This

I don’t see an upside to impeachment. He gets convicted (unlikely) we have Pence. He doesn't get convicted he walks around Ha Haing the stupid Democrats who are out to get him with all their fake news. What happens to impeachment during an election, anyway?

I see this Ukraine thing playing out like Mueller. Thud!

[tavernier]

144. But I support Nancy and if she thinks it's time to shoot

then I am confident... because she has been patiently waiting to see the whites of his beady little eyes.

[Arazi]

116. I like the idea of impeaching in the House and never sending it to the Senate

Just let all that ugly bullshit sit there festering during the entire 2020 election cycle. Dems can use it, Rs will have to spend lots of time defending his crimes. #Traitor can't run on being exonerated.

[BlueJac]

119. K&R

Impeach the mf!

[lindysalsagal]

120. I still believe frump loses voters if we impeach.

His magats want a winner. Deprive him of that.

[Jirel]

131. Same mindset as obsessing over "electability."

It’s fear, fear, fear. Putting the goal of getting into or staying in power before the goal of doing what is right and necessary for the country never works. The people who are hungry for change will not support the meek and mild who keep promising “someday.”

[HelpImSurrounded]

132. May i share this?

This is the best articulated argument about impeachment I have read. I'd like to share it outside DU? May i? Attribution?

[Lock him up.]

149. A question about State charges:

Are there statutes on money laundering in NY and FL?

[DeeNice]

151. It's not about left & right it's about right & wrong

I think we all know a president from another party would've been removed from office by now.
Regardless we need to put the republicans on record supporting this malfeasance.