Message to Llewlladdwr & all other Southerners: Perspective on the South bashing.

[johnlucas]

There was a thread started by poster Llewlladdwr called And "Bash the South" time is here again where Llewlladdwr put up links to 2 DU threads titled Why Do So Many Southerners Think They're the Only Real Americans? by applegrove & Let's not pretend that condescension is unique to the North by marmar.
Both posters linked to one Alternet article written by Chuck Thompson.

I've been at DU for a few years now & I do see a lot of grief given to The South in general.
Some posters take it too far with the "let 'em secede" nonsense (which reminds me of the "let California fall off into the ocean" crap) but I wanted to reply to Llewlladdwr's thread to explain why the South-bashing goes on & how to stop it.
Unfortunately the thread was locked so I couldn't post my reply.

I put up this thread to give perspective on the issue.
I titled my original reply "I live in the South. They bash the South for a reason"

The South as a whole still will not get over its xenophobic ways.
Because they're so xenophobic, they champion the destroyers in the Republican Party trying to get back at those "Others" they fear.
The White working class/"middle class" should be side by side with our cause but as a whole they're not.
They prop up the guys most determined to destroy the safety net & the idea of reciprocation that a society needs to survive.

Some White folks of the working/"middle" classes are with us, sure, but as a whole the Republican Party shows through all the so-called "Red States" how many of these people willingly & enthusiastically vote against their interests.
How is Rush Limbaugh getting all these ratings? How Fox News able to exist as a "news" channel?
Why would anybody support such a xenophobic/war-hungry/destructive platform as the Conservative Movement?

They shouldn't have 40% of the vote locked up. At best they should get 5% since there will always be crazies & crackpots.
The South is one of the strongholds keeping the Conservative Movement & the Republican Party which contains it alive.

So until the South changes AS A WHOLE, people are gonna bash the South in frustration at the Conservatives'/Republicans' continued existence.
I wouldn't take it personally if you are NOT part of this xenophobic clique.
They're not talking about you. They're talking about the bigots who cause the country to regress instead of progress.

Didn't we just hear that story about a Class of 1973 Louisiana class reunion sending out 'Whites only' on the flyer?
Check the comment boards under the various publications of this story.
Can you pick out who's a White bigot & who's not based on the responses?

The South has got work to do to redeem its image & people like you are the ones who can redeem it.
Quit spending your energy being mad at your teammates rightfully bashing the ignorance held in the South & start spending your energy being mad at the Southerners holding that ignorance.

Here's another thing: It ain't JUST the South that's holding that ignorance.
Wipe it out EVERYWHERE but start in your own backyard first.
John Lucas

[Skittles]

1. THANK YOU

I live in the south and I ABSOLUTELY AGREE!!!

[johnlucas]

2. It's easy to lose perspective when you think you're being attacked

I understand the frustration of people in the South.
Everybody down here ain't bigots & xenophobic haters.
But there's a lot of that down here & coddling it won't do a damn bit o' good.

You don't want to be automatically associated with bigoted ignorance just because you speak with a certain accent or come from a certain region.
What Llewlladdwr feels is exactly the same thing Blacks feel when they're judged on the essence of THEIR being, what Gays feel when they're judged on the essence of THEIR being, what women feel when they're judged on their capabilities.

That feeling should bring him closer to the devalued groups & he should want to fight harder to eradicate the poisonous philosophy permeating his region.
No, he's not responsible for somebody else's ignorant views.
Just like I hope other nations don't hold all Americans accountable for the foolish deeds of our government.

But the best way to shut that down is to be against the ignorance. To stand up against it actively in your circle of influence.
At the workplace, in the public square, in your neighborhood, in your home.
To your family, to your friends, to acquaintances & business partners, to perfect strangers.
SHOW by EXAMPLE that the South ISN'T all about that bigotry.

Link up with others who believe the same & create a wider circle of influence that will transform the image of the area you live in.
Eventually this will be reflected in the voting patterns & personal beliefs of people from that area.
Monkey See, Monkey Do after all.
We're just great apes who mimic each other for the sake of the pack/herd/tribe.

Easy to lose that perspective when you feel like "Quit attacking ME!!! I didn't do anything to deserve this!!!"
You should not feel attacked if you're not part of that disgusting group.
If someone still feels this way, then maybe they have some soul searching to do.
John Lucas

[Fawke Em]

27. The problem is that SOUTHERNERS need to be doing the correcting...

not people from other regions.

However, I do feel attacked even if I'm not part of that group because I AM a Southerner. What you're saying is akin to the Republicans who say of violation of our Fourth Amendment rights against search and seizure, "If YOU'RE not doing anything wrong, then why should you care?"

Well, I DO care.

[johnlucas]

36. You SHOULD care. But take your anger out on the ones bringing The South down

It's that family instinct I understand.
Nobody talks bad about my family but me.
I get it.

In my post history you will see me caution posters not to go overboard with lambasting the South.
There was a post from August 9th called All over the Republicans seem to be swaying the people in WV! by Kteachums.
I saw a little bit of that 'F the South' thing going on & one poster wrote that West Virginia was a lost cause because of too many racists.

I wrote a post called No state is a lost cause.
I basically said that I don't believe in this Crips & Bloods Red State/Blue State nonsense. I really don't.
Republicans catch what we throw away. We gotta go to the regions we are NOT liked in & make appeals.
Practical down-to-earth appeals that make dollars & sense if ya smell what I'm cookin'.

It's uphill because of the xenophobe factor but when things get really bad that stuff will go out the window.
Hard to hate someone that saved your life.

I'll tell you one thing. The Liberal/Progressive/Green/Democrat/Whatever movement ain't going too far until we break that Bigot Block.
We can't get solidarity because there are a lot of people who are scared of 'The Other'.
We must make it entirely unfashionable to carry those bigoted views ANYWHERE not just certain places.
Unfashionable EVEN in the South.
It goes to the CORE of the country & we're gonna have to get a grip on it.
Chip it away little by little or smash it in big swings.
But the Bigot Block must break down or Progress will remain at a standstill.
John Lucas

[Egalitarian Thug]

44. Yes they do, but we both know they won't and we both know why. And until Y'all stop raising your

kids to be even more ignorant than Y'all are, it's never going to change. It will get worse and worse until it boils over and then a whole new generation of southerners will have a new reason to hate everybody that isn't as ignorant as they are.

[K8-EEE]

3. OK a million and one props to all the DUers in the red states

Because for some of them, it can be a considerable act of courage to support the President. I get that!

I am born and raised in L.A. So am guilty of "bubble" type thinking. I do find myself looking at the electoral map with that big ugly red stain in the middle and thinking WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THOSE PEOPLE.

However, I never met one person who voted for Arnie OR Reagan for that matter, and look what happened? Obviously the world is not reflected by my particular circle of folks, not even in oh-so-blue CA.

To those of you in the South. It's easy for me to be an outspoken liberal, like falling off a log, but for you, not so much. You Southern DUers are the resistance and you, not me, can change minds and change this country for the better - ALL MY RESPECT!

[SoCalDem]

50. We have the "John Birchers" out here (they quit calling themselves that, though)

Orange County is as "red" as it gets..

Pockets of incivility are everywhere

[Scootaloo]

4. I grew up in Alabama

Then years after escaping, made a foray into Atlanta.

I don't "bash the south." I fucking pity it and the people who live there. it's sort of like Alaska (where i have also spent plenty of time) in that there are strong political opinions on both sides... but the left seems to take the Carlin-eque "fuck it voting is for chumps" nihilistic approach in both locations, leaving the pathologically compulsive right-wing voters to dominate the entire area unchallenged.

And i'm not going to close ranks or admire anyone who does... there's still a lot of cultural sickness in the south, beyond any political divides. There are still plenty of segregationists still kicking around - you don't grow up and live in that world and then abandon it the moment a bill is signed by hte president, after all. There's still a very strong anti-poor sentiment going through the region, even to the point of self-hatred and defeatism among hte poor themselves, a relic of the "good ol' days" when the south was a feudal society. And there's still this bass-ackwards attitude that whatever the rest of the nation is doing is wrong and the south must do whatever the opposite of that is.

Maybe in a generation or two, when the hoary old Wallace voters are under the dirt and Texas is blue and science can be taught in the classrooms of Mississippi without warning labels?

[rppper]

6. it wasn't a long time ago when Texas WAS a blue state...

Texas elected the Charlie Wilsons...democrats with balls....we elected a governor from Arkansas, and his wife is still working for us.....people forget so quickly....LBJ for gods sake....Byrd, Gore...all southerners....we can do this all day....i said this on another post: there are every bit as many racists and assholes living in the northern hemisphere of america as there are in the south and every bit as vehement as their southern friends....

again i say, clean up your own yard before you crap in mine....

[Odin2005]

17. That was back when the racists had not yet fully left the Democratic Party.

As late as 1990 many racist conservative white Southerners still voted Democratic out of habit.

[BeeBee]

5. Thank you for this...

I grew up as a Mormon in Utah... Every day, now especially with Mitt Romney as the GOP candidate, I hear a lot of Utah bashing and Mormon bashing.... Now that I'm removed from that I understand why there is this bashing. It's because Utah and Mormons deserve it. Yes, there are a lot of wonderful, great Mormons and people who live in Utah...but for the most part, the people in my former state and former religion vote against all that we, and I believe in.

[Jack Sprat]

7. That's rightly so, johnlucas

As a southerner to the very core, it's self-evident that Kansans, Wyomingians, Nebraskans, Utaherstians, Idaholians, and other red states get their share of porcupine needles too. It's not personal unless you're teasing me about my accent or what I had for breakfast.

Here's the thing. If you look back at the elections of 1932, 1936, 1940, and 1944, you can clearly verify that my (sovereign south) was all blue....deep, deep blue...navy blue. The south was FDR social security blue. Even Tennessee and Texas, not to mention Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Georgia, and Fla, Ark, Missouri, and points beyond. Even Ruby Red East Tennessee was turning blue thanks to the TVA which the govmint built. Notice Rom's daddy didn't, but the govmint did. The guvmint built East Tennessee's power plants and nuclear research center in Oak Ridge with its' own hands out of the taxes of the whole 48. The guvmint built the entire Tenn Valley Authority which included dams, hydro electrical plants and provides power to not just Tennessee alone, but adjoining states as well. Nowadays, many of those folks have developed substantial savings and a decent way of life with electricity even in their houses thanks to FDR, his New Deal projects including the TVA.

Continuing on, we begin to see a change as soon as Truman and Eisenhower began enforcing desegregation of schools in places like Little Rock. Suddenly, the sky blue south began using non-binding Democratic state electors who could supercede the votes of the people and cast their winning Democratic electoral votes for segregationist candidates like Strom Thurmond instead of the main Democratic candidate. As time evolved and the civil rights legislation forbade voter discrimination, employment discrimination, educational discrimination, suddenly the south went redstate crazy.

Even though our southern parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were unionists and New Dealers on a grand scale, the blue was gone from the election maps of deep south states. Their hearts are blue, but their politics are now blazing red. Do we have anything in common with a Mitt Romney or a Paul Ryan? No, not a thing in common with them So what changed?

[johnlucas]

25. 1948 & 1964 is what changed

I just wrote a whole monster of a post called A long story about The Southern Strategy breaking down the entire history of the political parties in the USA & what drives their changes.

Black People is what drives the changes, the realignments. From the very beginning all the way to today.

In our current context the years 1948 & 1964 explain why all of those FDR Union Democrats became the suckers for the modern-day Republican Party & all of its senseless acts.

1948 is the year that Democrat President Harry S. Truman desegregated the Military.
That's the same year that Democrat Governor Strom Thurmond ran for President under the new "States' Rights Democrat" banner AKA the Dixiecrats.

Ya see, Truman was from Missouri (that famous state from the 1820 Missouri Compromise on the slavery issue) & a Southerner himself (grew up on a farm & everything).
Thurmond being another Southerner from South Carolina felt this was a betrayal from the party who fought on behalf of Confederate Cause in the War Between The States of the 1860s.
That Confederate Cause being the upholding of slavery institution that made the Agricultural empire of the Plantations rich.
It goes all the way back to that Southern plantation owner from Virginia Thomas Jefferson, the emblematic leader of the original Democratic-Republican Party (look up the Greek & Latin origin of the root words in 'Democratic-Republican' to see where this idea of "States' Rights" come from).

Democrats fight AGAINST the Negroes not FOR the Negroes!!
This Is Madness!!!!!

Fast-forward.

1964 is the year that Democrat President Lyndon Baines Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 ending the oppression of the South's Jim Crow era.

Ya see Johnson was from Texas, another Southern state with ties to Missouri (people from Missouri went to "settle" Texas in the 1800s).
We got ANOTHER Southerner helping out them Negroes?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

DAMN IT!!!!! I WON'T STAND FOR ANY MORE OF THIS BETRAYAL!!!!!
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY CAN KISS MY ASS!!!!!!!!

FDR's legacy was untouchable (exception for that crap he did to the Japanese-Americans) & the Democrats under this legacy made the Democratic Party virtually unstoppable.
Republican Dwight Eisenhower wasn't crazy enough to retract those New Deal programs which saved the country from the Great Depression. And ironically here we got the Democratic Party helping out the Blacks they once scorned. They're atoning for their wicked past & giving themselves a social & economic legacy that won't be surpassed.

Some of the Republicans did some things for the Blacks in the 1940s & 1950s but the Democrats took up the mantle in the bravest way possible.
The Republican party knew they lost this Black voting block with their inconsistent dithering.
They knew they were about to be Whigged out with all the advances the FDR-legacy Democrats were making.
So to prevent annihilation as a party they added those angry Dixiecrat Democrat bigots to their fold.

Ya see the big money guys are always few in number. They need reliable voting blocks to pad their numbers so their plans get passed. Since they knew they lost the Blacks, why not pick up those guys who hate the Blacks?
They got lots of energy with all that xenophobic anger & that will come in useful for rolling back FDR's policies piece by piece.

Ya see they never got over Rich Guy Franklin Delano Roosevelt betraying them by making his fellow Richies pay max 94% of the taxes instead of max 25%.
The rich knew nobody would be sympathetic to them ESPECIALLY after the economically invaluable U.S. Interstate was built using those heavy tax revenues. How you gonna go into outer space with Sputnik without the big money taxed from the rich boys?

It was gonna take a long time & the passing of generations to begin rolling back FDR's New Deal.

Luckily Johnson gave them an opening with that ignorant Vietnam adventure.
Nixon got in using these angry Dixiecrats in 1968.
They built power in the 1970s using the South's general religious affiliation–Southern Baptist–to begin this Moral Majority strategy.
And then they got in Ronald Reagan in 1980.

That's when they begin the rollback in earnest. With him.
32 years later we're suffering the effects as the Southern bigots & their associated compatriots continue to help the Richies destroy everything FDR's New Deal established as they try to get back at The Negroes & any others they put on level with The Negroes (Muslims, Gays, Asians, Mexicans, etc.).

They're openly calling New Deal/Great Society legacy programs Entitlements now & trying to straight shut them down.
You couldn't do this in 1953. You couldn't do this in 1962. You couldn't do this in 1978. You couldn't even do this in 1985.
But it's being done now.

And all because there is this BIG GROUP OF PEOPLE who hate The Negroes so much that they'll unwittingly hurt themselves trying to hurt those Negroes.
It only adds insult to injury that one of those Negroes is now the Democratic President.

There goes them Democrats helping them Negroes again. Sickening!!!! TRAITORS!!!!!
John Lucas

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. I do not even engage with them.

They have no facts.

Some gun nut at the P.O. the other day told me there was gonna be a revolt in January (only reason I can think of would be Obama's re-inauguration) and the poor people were gonna leave the city and come raid our little town (even though they don't have cars--good trick) and we needed to stockpile guns, ammo, and dried food. I say he is a gun nut because he was slobbering over a 30 ought 6 Remington he was talking about with the clerk at the post office.

I wanted to ask this guy, "Who told you that?"

Or the woman at the book club who said she lived in Spain for two years and they are "too socialist. They're lazy. They take a nap after lunch."

The idea that people get sleepy after lunch and can't do any work was utterly foreign to her, i guess. I thought I was dealing with a right-wing conservative and didn't pursue it.

I live in TX and my county went 2-1 for McCain last time.

I put a big Obama Biden sign in my yard back in 2008 and guys drove by in pickups yelling "FUCK YOU!! FUCK OBAMA!!" The woman (white) across the street said, "WHUT'S THAT OBAMMY THANNNGG??"

I bet they would be happy to get out their shotguns and put holes in my Obama sign and possibly in me or my husband if we were in the yard.

Texas is blue in the cities but reactionary/libertarian in the country.

[YOHABLO]

9. Hmm .. but what about my vote here in Georgia?

There are lots of progressives living here in the state of Georgia, however when it comes time to cast my vote for Obama this fall, I know it won't be counted because "electorally" these ignorant Southerners, who by the way once called themselves Democrats, will over-ride it with their vote for Romney. When are we going to get rid of the electoral college?

[Zoeisright]

13. Ah yes, that stupid argument.

The last time a conservative called himself a Democrat was more than 100 years ago. When are you going to get over that and face up to the face that racists are republicans?

[Llewlladdwr]

10. Can you respect that the South is my home?

That's where I was born, and it' s the land that shaped me into the man I am today. I left for 24 years and traveled half the planet but I finally realized that this was where I belonged, where I was happiest. No one likes to hear shit talk about things they love. I don' t expect understanding, but a minimum of respect would be nice.

[scheming daemons]

21. the MAJORITY of people in your "home" are racist pieces of shit

Congratulations to you for going against the grain of your neighbors, but it is an incontrovertible fact that the overwhelming majority of Southerners will vote Republican.

The south, as a REGION, deserves political bashing.

You, as an INDIVIDUAL, do not.

Get it?

[Fawke Em]

29. No they're not.

What you don't get is that we are in a vacuum of information in the South. Most people vote Republican, not because they're racist, but because they don't know anything else.

All our talk radio is right-wing, the majority of our local news stations are right-wing and the majority of our newspapers are right-wing. There is very little - and in many places, no - opposing viewpoints. The only way to get an opposing viewpoint is to either try and find MSNBC (which isn't carried on as many cable packages) or get satellite radio, which, in these economic times, might not be something one can afford.

If all you hear, day-in and day-out is the right-wing side of the spectrum, then that's what you know.

It has little to do with race and more to do with propaganda and exposure.

[johnlucas]

46. Radio is a BIG reason why it continues

Smaller cities, less varied programming choices.
Rural areas only get what's available & don't have much choice.

Racism DOES flavor what is promoted in local radio, TV, & print in those regions, however.
It's self-perpetuating.

You come from the era of Jim Crow Colored & White bathrooms & suddenly it's outlawed.
Those racist beliefs didn't fade with the laws & you look for points of view that support your formed worldview.
The regional market gives the people what they want so you get your worldview reinforced.
Lack of variety in media choices deepen this worldview even further so there's no chance to escape.
Peer pressure also dissuades you from standing against the status quo since you want to be in agreement with your friends & family.
Your children grow up in this world & carry many of the same views because it was always heard in their community.

It has MUCH to do with race with propaganda & exposure only reinforcing what is already there.
But as cities get bigger & more multicultural, new points of view get a chance to be heard.
More diversity of peoples = more diversity of views.
To keep hold of that power block, multiculturalism must be demonized.
John Lucas

[MuseRider]

47. I have said the same thing

for years, many many times about my state of Kansas. It does no good. Our states have been abandoned. There should be another view point for people and it needs to happen but as long as the rest of the "good" states full of "good" people can feel better about themselves with their own personal red state isms (of course much better than other isms) nothing will change. If the Democrats want votes out here they know how to do it, they just don't even try.

As I said, IF DEMOCRATS WANT VOTES FROM THESE STATES they can fucking well come and work for them. Those of us out here are losing and so bone tired that most do not even care anymore. If all you can do is watch a minority beat itself dead on that fucking wall and point and laugh and make nasty comments then THAT person is the problem.

[area51]

11. Disagree.

If the dickheads on this site didn't mean all southerners in their slams, they'd say so. The decent folks here can't "cure everything" to your specifications, and we don't deserve to be tarred with the same brush by fools and their knee-jerk reactions about all southerners. Again, I think you'd like to forget that there are assholes in all states, and I don't think it's southerners who are keeping the nazi party alive -- it's big money from corporations, idiot actors like Clint Eastwood, and the Kochroaches and their ilk.

[Hulk]

12. Guilty.

I'm one that often responds with "let them secede", if that's what they want. It IS frustration; but it's also a response to some of the jack-asses who live in "Dixie" that seem to think they, and their narrow views of what America is, are keeping this great nation together despite the damned liberals.
I guess I've watched too many documentaries recently on the Civil War, and I've driven through the South recently; and I can tell you from my experience and my opinion of what the South was in the Civil War period, and what it is yet today, make for a really backward, religious nut cake-land that had me fearing for my life as I traveled through the country. I always have to preface my comments with "I know there are some really great folks that live there....", but there are an awful lot, and I mean an awful lot, of ignorant, backward fools that seem to think their way is "something special" that makes this country great. Just the opposite. It's because of their narrow minded views and over-religious intolerance that this country is being pulled down and dragged back wards.
I want to also say that this isn't JUST found in the South. An awful lot of rural America is the same....for good reason. Listening to the radio while driving across the country, in most of the rural parts of this country ALL YOU GET is right wing, nut ball idiots like Hannity, Limbaugh, Ingraham, Savage, Levine, etc, etc....and then a HEAVY DOSE of religious screw balls spilling that Bible illogical crap to their audience, with NO opposing views at all.
Until we address the airwaves and AT LEAST give this county the option of listening to the crazies and OPB and progressive views, we are going to be stuck in this rut.
My apologies for coming down on "the South", but it's really an opinion of this country that is doused with nothing but nonsense, right wing propaganda, both religious and political.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

14. Locking.

Please repost in the Meta Forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1240

[UnrepentantLiberal]

15. Unlocking thread.

[Odin2005]

16. That Birtherism is concentrated in the South tells me everything...

...I need to know.

[DirkGently]

18. Riiight. Orly Taitz is CA. Trump's in New York.

Militias are strongest in Michigan and Wisconsin. Secession talk is biggest in Texas and Alaska. Anti-union efforts have focused in Wisconsin and Indiana. Rewriting history books to put Jefferson Davis on par with Lincoln comes from Kansas. Oregon and Washington state harbor some of the hilliest Billy's in the country.

So sorry, but this obsessive need to paint someone else's state as "the problem" is the same kind of deluded xenophobia that fuels Republicans.

No one lives in a magical enlightened land where there is no stupidity, nor are any states pure hellholes of ignorance.

Progressives are supposed to be smarter than this.

[johnlucas]

45. Read my post about The Southern Strategy

I made a giant post a few days ago going all the way back to the beginning with how the American political parties formed & why.
It was called A long story about The Southern Strategy.

In it you will see that The South didn't remain just in The South.
The Mexican War of the 1840s was fought for Southern interests for the purpose of gaining more land for more Representatives (among other reasons).
The Utah Territory & New Mexico Territory gained from that war covers most of today's Southwestern States.
That 1820 Missouri Compromise with the Mason-Dixon Free State/Slave State thing encouraged the Democrats to further extend their already formidable political grip on the United States.
It goes all the way back to Thomas Jefferson & Alexander Hamilton & their views on how the U.S.A. should develop.

And also people spread out so some moved north, west, east over time.
Indiana used to be a stronghold of the Ku Klux Klan, remember?
Southern cowboys rode all the way up & down the Heartland. From Texas to Montana.
There's a reason why Republicans do so strong in Heartland, Southwestern, Mountain states.

ALSO the Southern Strategy after 1964 was creating a coalition of bigotry.
Since Southerners were usually Southern Baptist it tied into this Moral Majority strategy which united people over "social conservative" grounds. This allowed people not identified with the South per se to jump onboard the new Conservative philosophy.
All this was building in the 1970s then Reagan hit in 1980.

Remember all those televangelists on TV?

Jerry Falwell was from Lynchburg, Virginia.
700 Club's Pat Robertson was from Lexington, Virginia.
Jimmy Swaggart was from Ferriday, Louisiana.

We're looking at the end result of a long evolution.
But the root of it comes back to the Southern plantations & the slavery of Black people.
That's why Black people always end up realigning the parties.
It's happening right now in 2012.
John Lucas

[TroglodyteScholar]

19. Bingo

I spent my first 28 years in the south, and I couldn't agree more.

Was the only outspoken liberal among my cowokers in a backwards, bigoted little Air Force town. Never let the bullying silence me, but ultimately had to get out to preserve my sanity. All the xenophobia masquerading as patriotism is just too much.

[aikoaiko]

20. There is a flaw in your rationalization of South bashing

Last edited Mon Sep 3, 2012, 10:53 AM - Edit history (1)

You justify it by saying the "South as a whole" believes or does something.

But then you say that South bashers are not attacking the liberals and Democrats of the South.

You can't have it both ways. You can't claim we're teammates when you justify mean spirited remarks toward your fellow teammates in the South (as a whole).

The conflict is between Democrats and Republicans, left and right, liberalism and conservatism - not us versus the South.

edited to add:

Let's take a look at the 2008 election to illustrate how many people are alienated when DUers bash the South.

South Carolina: 45% for Obama
Georgia: 47% for Obama
Alabama; 39% for Obama
Mississippi: 43%
Louisiana: 40%
Texas: 44%
Arkansas: 39%
Tennessee: 42%
Kentucky: 41%
Virginia: 53%
North Carolina: 50%

So let's be clear that "as a whole" we're talking about flipping 5% of southern voters to take the south.

[DirkGently]

24. That tactic is the calling card of crappy call-out rhetoric here.

OP: All people who ____are fucking _____s!"

Response: "Well, I _____ and I'm not ____, so ...?"

Defense: "Well then I'm not talking to you, am I?"

Optional bonus defense:"Since you're so defensive, you must be one of the____who ____ after all!"


Who thinks this bullshit works on anyone at this point?

[Jack Sprat]

55. A better way of direction.

Since it has become obvious that many midwest states and western states are also prominently red, a more appropriate generalization should be "Red states" as opposed to "southern states" This would better define areas problematic in the redstate voting habits. By acknowledging that it also applies to other regions as well, it would sound less slanderous of one region.

I mean "wouldn't we all prefer our state to be a royal blue state if we had our way"? I know I would.

[johnlucas]

26. We're closer than before, sure, but it's still a major problem

We really shouldn't be waiting for that extra 5%.
There shouldn't BE a Republican Party right now.
There shouldn't BE a Conservative Movement right now.

All the insanity I'm hearing from this Republican platform: rape is just a method of conception, Social Security & Medicare are "entitlements" instead of services we have paid into, stupidity on the gay marriage issue, more & more unfunded unfounded wars, tax cuts for the rich, no support for the poor, no abortion under ANY circumstances even incest, villainizing teachers' unions & unions in general, the birther nonsense.

How can any of this foolishness be taken seriously?
Why are we trying to make these viewpoints equal to sensible ones?
One person says balls are round.
The other person says balls are square.
Those viewpoints are not of equal weight. One is clearly & unmistakably wrong.

The fact that you have percentages that low shows that it is a problem.
The 5% should be the fools who buy into this insanity not the people we need to escape it.
The South has a problem.
Let me know when those numbers say 75% or greater.

Everyone from the South is not a problem but there IS a problem in the South.
And we know at the end of the day it all comes down to their irrational bigotry.
John Lucas

[Fawke Em]

30. I whole-heartedly disagree.

The problem is the propaganda and lack of liberal voices in our media.

Bigotry is a small part of it.

I know plenty of Republicans who don't have a bigoted bone in their body, but still believe in that "self-made (wo)man" bullshit.

[dawg]

33. Let me know when it's 75% or more in any Northern state.

Ohio voted 51% for Obama. Georgia voted 47%.

Not exactly a world of difference.

[johnlucas]

41. Well good point but here's a few that approach that number

2008 Election - Obama vs. McCain according to Wikipedia

1. Washington D.C. = 92.46%
2. Hawaii = 71.85%
3. Vermont = 67.44%
4. Rhode Island = 63.13%
5. New York = 62.88%
6. Delaware = 61.94%
7. Illinois = 61.92%
8. Maryland = 61.92%
9. Massachusetts = 61.80%
10. California = 61.01%
11. Connecticut = 60.59%

We can do better nationwide but ESPECIALLY the South.
The mentality of 'The Republican Party shouldn't exist' should be at the forefront of our minds.
It should offend us that they are getting ANY votes.
Their numbers should be trace at best.

They're too much dead weight dragging down the car on the road trip.
Time to unload that coalition from American political thought altogether.
LONG Overdue.
John Lucas

[dawg]

43. It's wrong to single out any one region.

NC - 50% Obama
VA - 53%
GA - 47%
FL - 51%

on the other hand

ND - 45%
SD - 45%
NE - 42%
KS - 42%
ID - 36%
AK - 38%

[sufrommich]

22. While recognizing that there are certainly progressive

people living in the south, we also need to remember that it is called The Southern Strategy for a reason.

[Tom Ripley]

32. Yes! There is a very good reason that "exceptional southerners" are considered to be...exceptional

[Fawke Em]

39. That apparently took nearly 30 years to work.

I keep reading about this "Southern Strategy" bullshit, but didn't see any evidence of it happening until 20-some-odd years later, coincidentally, when Rush Limbaugh took over the airwaves in 1994.

Before that, the South still voted largely Democratic. Hell, even after 1994, most of the South voted for Clinton/Gore, both times, and many had Democratic senators for years.

Therefore, if there was a Southern Strategy, it didn't work very well or it was so slow-acting, it could be patented for time-released capsules.

I still believe, having grown up in the South, that the propaganda machine is the culprit. I didn't grow up with flags of the Northern Virgina Army (confused as the Confederate flag) all over the place. There were more rednecks in the neighborhood in our Indiana neighborhood (where we lived for one year before moving back to Tennessee) than there were in my home state. Country music was popular in pockets and the culture was NOT as backward here as I started noticing in the late 90s/early 2000s.

Whatever Nixon cooked up in the late 1960s was NOTHING compared to the right-wing purchase of rural and AM radio stations and the abject HATE heaped upon any and all liberals who dared voice concerns at these disturbing patterns in free speech.

[Jack Sprat]

51. It goes back further than that, Fawke.

Much, much longer ago than limbaugh's lube jobs. I will try to post something to you that gives my perspective on the 'change' or lack thereof. I hope you will allow me to on behalf of us being native Tennesseeans.

[Jack Sprat]

53. Here is a position with a longer history of the southern strategy

This was a response I sent to johnlucas in regards to our failed attempts to get down to the very heart of the matter last evening. It really predates my life experience somewhat, but having been born into a southern family of Democrats and raised in a city neighborhood of southern Democrats in the 1950s and early 1960s, it begins my experience of political awareness as I began life in the aftermath of my Dad's return from WWII.

< Reading your narrative here clearly shows we were getting into the real meat of the subject. Your historical context is correct. From my perspective, all current political discourse is shrouded in resentment towards FDR and the New Deal including blacks in many reforms as compared to excluding them as was the general normal. Allowing them to participate in WWII military units. The Labor movement included them in unions in northern cities. Then, Truman opening up all military services to integrated acceptance.
>
> The next phase of integration was Eisenhower's enforcement of school integration in Little Rock. As we have learned, Ike was actually a Democrat of his day. That was during my childhood which was mainly harmonious. Ike faithfully protected the social security system and taxed at a rate that preserved and strengthened the new middle class started by FDR.
>
> When Kennedy came into office on a platform that promised racial equality across the board, the shit hit the fan with southern politicians. As you state, the south had already erected a barrier in previous years with alternate Dixiecrat electoral delegates who could alter the popular vote.
>
> What changed? The 1964 Civil Rights legislation by LBJ affored the black population the same availability for federal dollars that southern whites had always treasured for themselves alone. It was their greatest fear because it threatened the hierarchy of their social structure. That fight still rages to this day with several midwest states like Kansas, Missouri, and Nebraska joining forces. Although the individual white middle class doesn't want to be swallowed alive by giving up their own social security, medicare, and government benefits, their politicians and gentry have convinced them it's necessary to nudge the black calves away from the feed trough. Many of them still believe their own place at the feed trough will someway be preserved, or that's what they try to tell themselves.
>
> We know what changed. It's blatantly obvious and historically obvious. But what the modern Democratic party is failing to do to this point is have a frank discussion with southern whites to accept the inevitable change that was necessary to implement the stated intentions of a genuine land of liberty and justice for all. To this point, their politicians have shielded them from it and don't want the conversation to ever take place. I believe Howard Dean was determined to have that discussion with them and I'm sorry it never took place. President Obama can't get close to having the conversation with them, because southern politicians won't even acknowledge the validity of his presidency.
>

[alarimer]

23. The basic problem with all of these threads is that the South is not monolithic.

North Carolina, with its influx of people from the north and midwest, voted for Obama last time and it is close this time as well. The divide is not North/South so much as it is urban/rural. As in the rest of the country, urban areas vote blue mostly and rural areas are red, generally. Suburbs can go either way I guess.

Is there a lot of ignorance? Yes, especially in the smaller towns and cities, but most of the truly awful things are long in the past. The ignorance and bigotry come from older, whiter, and more religious people. Same as anywhere I suppose. As we saw in NC's Amendment 1 fight, the churches are the source of most of the bigotry these days against homosexuals.

Case in point: The Freedom From Religion Foundation has filed a complaint against as Judge here in Elizabeth City for his official participation in the National Day of Prayer; it took place in his courtroom. So those issues still happen, especially in the South, but certainly also in Oklahoma or Missouri, for example.

[Adsos Letter]

28. And never has been

monolithic, that is. Even prior to and during the Civil War, as William W. Freehling has demonstrated so well in his 2-volume Road to Disunion.

[patrice]

34. True. So people should consider making an honest active commitment to "small" again. nt

[progressivebydesign]

38. And yet my relative moved to NC with her dark skinned cuban boyfriend and was accosted repeatedly.

In a supposed nice town in NC. This was a few years ago. After many incidents, they fled for a safter place on the East Coast.

Change will come, but it's going to be slow.

[patrice]

31. Love this!!! One thing: Changing the South "as a whole", if that's what we are waiting for before

some of us make a commitment to that kind of change, we will be waiting forever.

I'd like to suggest: Enough individual persons can change themselves that a critical mass is created. This is important, because as a significant minority becomes stronger, because it is becoming more honest and committed to acting upon what they know in smart ways, they become more and more effective.

What happens doesn't depend entirely upon the "whole". Small clearly aware constructively active groups committed to their communities can help everyone. They need to always be up front and courageous about what their values are as they engage racism and ignorance.

[johnlucas]

57. Yes you must work within your circle of influence before anything else

You gotta influence your peer groups & change the group's view.
Then that group will influence other groups & so on & so forth.

The whole object is to make bigotry a minor view rather than a major or medium view.
When people spout out that backwards mode of thought, the community should treat them as crackpots.
Nobody should want to emulate them or follow in their footsteps.
Gotta make the bigoted view poisonous.
Poisonous to reputations, poisonous to business opportunities, poisonous to romantic opportunities even.

Enough of that & Republican influence will shrink.
John Lucas

[patrice]

58. It's all way overwhelming when you look at the whole thing. Need to start believing in small things

again.

Clarity and courage and commitment in small things.

[Aristus]

35. Oh, and one more thing...:

Stop flying that fucking slavery flag!

If a Japanese-American were to fly the Japanese battle standard (the Japanese national rising sun flag, with radiant sun rays added), he wouldn't be able to get away with the lame explanation that it was just his 'heritage', and therefor harmless.

He would come under highly justified social sanction.

And so it is with the slavery flag.

Call out anyone who flies it...

[Fawke Em]

40. We do call it out and make fun of it.

In fact, posting pictures of these idiots and their cars/houses is sport in my community - on Facebook and Twitter, most prominently. We literally call them out in a VERY public forum.

[Aristus]

48. Thank you. Keep up the good work.

Let them know that Southern honor is not represented by that flag; that that flag stands as the direct antithesis of Southern honor.

[johnlucas]

49. I respect that Fawke Em. Thank you

That's how it's supposed to be done.
It's gonna take the personal pressure to change this.
Shame the bigots into being embarrassed of their bigotry.
They continue it because it's acceptable in their peer group.

Thank you Fawke Em. You will help purify this region of its wicked past.
John Lucas

[progressivebydesign]

37. Beautifully put!! I'm on the West Coast and don't take insults about it personally.

and there are a lot of insults (not on DU, but in general.) I know it doesn't apply to me, so it doesn't bother me.

Sadly, the South and some parts of the Midwest, do have a disproportionate share of racists, and backward politicians, and low info voters. I have family that moved to the SOuth, and returned as soon as possible after being subject to racist incidents repeatedly.

Of course wer'e not talking about the Southern DUers. I know how hard it would be to live in that atmosphere, but you can't deny that those things are happening there and that it's still considered okay.

[1monster]

42. Gotta tell ya, a huge amount of the people in my part of the south originated in the NORTH.

I'm not sure about other parts of the south, but I can tell you that those transplanted northerners tend to be just as (or even more) "southern" than the long term or orignal "southerns."

[Skip Intro]

52. Sad. How is it not bigoted to bash an entire region?

I'm almost choking on the irony.

Of course, it doesn't take long for the South-bashing to turn into white-bashing, as evidenced by your OP. But it's all one big pastime for some here.

Here's the thing:

Racism, Bigotry, Xenophobia, etc exist in EVERY state.

Conservatives, who, btw, are not automatically racist and bigoted xenophobes simply because they are on the conservative side of the political spectrum, exist in EVERY state.

But this is readily apparent.

What liberal ideal do we uphold when we bash an entire region or people because of the actions of a few?

What is the difference between saying the South is full of terrible people and saying Iran (or Cuba or France or Mexico, etc.) is full of terrible people?

Bigotry is bigotry.

And you're call for more DUers to join in is a sad commentary on one of the uglier sides of DU.

[johnlucas]

59. Why are you taking it personally? We're calling out the bigoted mentality not the region

Last edited Tue Sep 4, 2012, 12:44 AM - Edit history (1)

When Bush was President he gave Americans a VERY BAD image. Worse than before.
Other countries thought of us as moronic for giving this fool a second term.
Remember that British tabloid The Daily Mirror's front page headline in 2004?
"How Could 59,054,087 People Be So Dumb?"

Even if it was a ridiculous tabloid the headline hit it on the head.
Why does that irresponsible coalition have sway on the direction of the country?
If a fool like Bush is considered worthy of Presidency, then what does that say about Americans?

If people from foreign countries started criticizing the decisions of America AS A WHOLE, I wouldn't get sour & act like "Nobody better say nothing bad about my country but ME!"
I would realize they are talking about America as a whole & are confounded on how irresponsible views get beyond 50% of the vote.
I would welcome the criticism & use it as fuel to not let ignorant mentalities sway the country's direction again.

Yeah there's stupid mentalities & behaviors all around the world but is that the standard you want to compare yourself to?
So what if racism, bigotry, xenophobia exist all around the planet much less all around the country.
How can we make it happen less HERE?

I don't hold anything against the North Koreans because of the Kim Jong gang.
I sympathize with the Afghanis who are fighting dogmatic oppressors in their own land.
I don't have beef with Iraqis just because my government says they are at war with them.

"How Could 59,054,087 People Be So Dumb?" doesn't offend me.
They're not talking about me.
John Lucas

[Jack Sprat]

54. Since our efforts were futile last night

I will repost the narrative we had this morning and my memories of political awareness than began in the aftermath of being born to a returning WWII Dad and Mom in a Democratic family. My grandparents were also New Deal Democrats in the rural south. My Dad was a Teamster in a large southern city. My neighborhood was composed of the same for the most part, white Democratic voters with more commonality then among all and very little political division if at all. Politics, like religion at the time, was polite and non-intrusive.

Reading your narrative here clearly shows we were getting into the real meat of the subject. Your historical context is correct. From my perspective, all current political discourse is shrouded in resentment towards FDR and the New Deal including blacks in many reforms as compared to excluding them as was the general normal. Allowing them to participate in WWII military units. The Labor movement included them in unions in northern cities. Then, Truman opening up all military services to integrated acceptance.
>
> The next phase of integration was Eisenhower's enforcement of school integration in Little Rock. As we have learned, Ike was actually a Democrat of his day. That was during my childhood which was mainly harmonious. Ike faithfully protected the social security system and taxed at a rate that preserved and strengthened the new middle class started by FDR.
>
> When Kennedy came into office on a platform that promised racial equality across the board, the shit hit the fan with southern politicians. As you state, the south had already erected a barrier in previous years with alternate Dixiecrat electoral delegates who could alter the popular vote.
>
> What changed? The 1964 Civil Rights legislation by LBJ affored the black population the same availability for federal dollars that southern whites had always treasured for themselves alone. It was their greatest fear because it threatened the hierarchy of their social structure. That fight still rages to this day with several midwest states like Kansas, Missouri, and Nebraska joining forces. Although the individual white middle class doesn't want to be swallowed alive by giving up their own social security, medicare, and government benefits, their politicians and gentry have convinced them it's necessary to nudge the black calves away from the feed trough. Many of them still believe their own place at the feed trough will someway be preserved, or that's what they try to tell themselves.
>
> We know what changed. It's blatantly obvious and historically obvious. But what the modern Democratic party is failing to do to this point is have a frank discussion with southern whites to accept the inevitable change that was necessary to implement the stated intentions of a genuine land of liberty and justice for all. To this point, their politicians have shielded them from it and don't want the conversation to ever take place. I believe Howard Dean was determined to have that discussion with them and I'm sorry it never took place. President Obama cannot get close to having the conversation with them, because southern politicians won't even acknowledge the validity of his presidency.
>

[johnlucas]

60. I think I missed the importance of 1968 & RFK

They kill John Kennedy in 1963 & Lyndon Johnson takes over.
Johnson carries out Kennedy's plan & powers the Civil Rights Act of 1964 & Voting Rights Act of 1965.
That purged the racists out of the Democratic Party for good & the Democratic Party we still support & hope for today comes from this.

The big mistake was Vietnam which split the party along war & anti-war lines.
Blacks wanted more from Johnson but they could be brought back into the fold since he risked major political capital to get those landmark achievements passed. Besides he gave us Thurgood Marshall on the Supreme Court. And Medicare was awesome.

Due to health issues & fractures in the party he sat out of the 1968 election.
Could he have beaten Nixon? I think so. It might have been tight but I think he could have pulled it off once he got past the primaries.
But he didn't run & turned the 1968 election into a free-for-all. Everything's up for grabs.

With LBJ standing aside, Robert Kennedy was the people's favorite & once he got past the primaries he would have embarrassed Nixon on the televised debates just like his brother John did. He would have been the President.
And then he was assassinated...

I believe that killed the backbone of the Democratic Party right then & there.
They didn't go as hard against the opposition after that.
Nixon gets in & starts the slow process that leads us to Reagan & the Bushes & all the Republicans inbetween.
In reaction to that Democrats start this Third Way crap giving us a shell of the former strong Progressive Democrats of the FDR/JFK/LBJ era.
So desperate we are to return to that, we'll take anything we can get from Clinton.

I really want Obama to end the Third Way appeasement style politics & turn the Democratic Party back into FDR/JFK/LBJ's vision.
There's a reason why we put up those guys by their initials only. They're THAT legendary.
One day I hope we look back on BHO.
John Lucas

[flamingdem]

56. Here's something about the North South conflict moving into the Civil war

http://www.journalofamericanhistory.org/projects/lincoln/contents/grinspan.html

These feelings have been around a LONG time.

---

“Young Men for War”: The Wide Awakes and Lincoln’s 1860 Presidential Campaign

A band of “sleepy Gotham politicians” gathered in a Manhattan tavern late one evening in 1860. It was a windy Thursday night, and the atmosphere inside the dimly lit establishment was subdued. The bosses ordered ale and settled into a lazy debate about the usual political topics. They cursed the Republican party, analyzed their presidential ticket, and worried about the possibility of secession, all while getting steadily drunker in the cozy tavern.

They first heard the noise around midnight. From uptown came the clash of a marching band followed by the advancing tread of hundreds of boots on the cobblestones of the Bowery. Soon the stench of burning oil filled their nostrils, and the tavern’s dark windows began to glow from the outside. Tipsy and curious, the insiders spilled out onto the street to join a throng of dazed New Yorkers. There they watched as large formations of young men, clad in shimmering black capes and soldiers’ caps, came stomping down the middle of their island. Each bore a blazing torch, and none said a word. Pushing through the crowd, the sobered politicians shouted, “Who are these Wide Awakes?”[1]

The march that shook New York was one of thousands that poured through America’s cities, towns, and villages in 1860, started by a revolutionary new political organization. Stumping for the Republican candidate, Abraham Lincoln, the strange movement electrified the presidential election. Young men from Bangor to San Francisco and from huge Philadelphia clubs to tiny Iowa troupes donned uniforms, lit torches, and “fell in” to pseudomilitary marching companies. They flooded every northern state and trickled into upper South cities like Baltimore, Wheeling, and St. Louis. Launched in March by “five young dry goods clerks” in Hartford, Connecticut, by November the Wide Awakes had developed into a nationwide grassroots movement with hundreds of thousands of members. Many of the movement’s supporters—and even some of its vociferous opponents—believed “there never was, in this country, a more effective campaign organization than the Wide Awakes.”[2]

---



The militarism of the Wide Awakes helps explain how the election of Lincoln sparked the Civil War. Historians have long pondered the missing link between the complex politics of the 1850s and the war. It is difficult to believe that the Civil War could have erupted as a popular conflict—with hundreds of thousands of excited volunteers—unless political debates were transformed into larger cultural motivators. The Wide Awakes enabled that transformation. The movement’s dangerous use of militarism for political purposes unintentionally bled into powerful cultural agitation that terrified southerners. Young northerners equipped with uniforms and torches sent an ominous message to those already apprehensive about the Republican party’s antisouthern attitudes. While certainly not a cause of the war, the Wide Awakes’ presence ratcheted up sectional pressure and invested Lincoln’s election with weighty significance. Understanding how the organization worked helps connect the political and military campaigns.

Though observers felt “the future historian” should devote “one of his most glowing chapters” to the movement, few historians have asked, “Who are these Wide Awakes?” No scholar has recently offered an appraisal of the organization, and former Wide Awakes penned the most in-depth analyses of their club over a century ago. Those accounts contained valuable recollections, but the authors remembered their militarism through the prism of the Civil War as a prediction of the approaching conflict. Since then, the Wide Awakes have appeared as little more than campaign color in the classic accounts of the 1860 election by David Potter, Allan Nevins, and Roy Nichols. Works on Lincoln’s election may sketch a Wide Awake parade, but none truly examines the movement.[5]

The “future historian” has never appeared, and studies of the 1860 election have tended to follow a standard narrative, detailing Lincoln’s fight for the Republican nomination, his summer of quiet seclusion in Springfield, and his predictable victory in November. Such accounts affirm Lincoln’s humble calm in contrast to the terrible chaos that would consume the rest of his life. Yet if we hope to understand Lincoln’s presidency or the coming of the Civil War, we cannot fast-forward through the 1860 campaign. Lincoln’s image played a major role, but like most other nineteenth-century presidential candidates, he refused to canvass. Instead, four parties fielded complex campaign machines in a vicious public battle on behalf of their nominees. Scholars focused solely on the lives of great men have not addressed these important partisan mechanisms and cultural forces in detail. The visible, distinctive, and extremely popular Wide Awakes offer a glimpse of the neglected machinery that powered nineteenth-century American democracy. .... more at link

[cwydro]

61. Charlotte NC and Boston MA

were the two cities chosen for the school busing project back in the 70's.

Feel free to google which one handled it with less problems.