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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJonathan Turley, here is your ass on a platter
He had an op-ed in the WSJ that I did not bother to read.
But today there are two letters.. Ari Melber, who was furious that Turely wanted to amend the Constitution, will feel vindicated.
Jonathan Turley should reread his copy of James Madisons Notes of Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787. In Adam Schiffs Capacious Definition of Bribery Was Tried in 1787 (op-ed, Nov. 29), Mr. Turley says that the Framers rejected various definitions of impeachable offenses: corruption, obtaining office by improper means, betraying ones trust to a foreign power, negligence, perfidy, peculation and oppression.
He is wrong. Those words were raised by various delegates (including Madison) to defend the impeachment power after other delegates made a motion to eliminate impeachment completely. The delegates werent debating the specific details of how to define impeachable offenses that day (July 20, 1787). They didnt even appoint a committee to draft the actual text of the Constitution until the following week.
In fact, the delegates defense of impeachmentusing the very words that Mr. Turley incorrectly says were rejectedwas so persuasive that one of the delegates who made the motion to eliminate impeachment, Gouverneur Morris, changed his mind and agreed that impeachment was a necessity.
Curiously, Mr. Turley fails to mention the one argument that the delegates did consider and reject that daythat elections would be a sufficient check on the presidents exercise of his powers. After considering the arguments on that point, the states voted 8-2 to allow impeachment rather than relying solely on the electoral process.
If we are going to care about the Framers intent (and we should), we have to do it honestly and accurately, without regard to partisan politics. And like Gouverneur Morris, we should be willing to change our opinions when we are wrong. Madisons Notesthe actual notes, not editorialists spin on themare an essential place to start for anyone interested in understanding what the Framers were thinking.
Jeremy Lawrence
Redwood City, Calif.
I served as special impeachment counsel to the House of Representatives for the impeachment and removal of four federal judges, including former judge, G. Thomas Porteous Jr.
Prof. Turley implies that his client, Judge Porteous, was exonerated by the Senate because the lead House manager [Adam Schiff] sought to convict my client on the novel theory that even conduct before taking office could be impeachable.
To the extent Prof. Turley is implying that the novel theory was rejected by the Senate, the exact opposite is true. By an overwhelming bipartisan majority of 90-6, Porteous was convicted in the Senate of failing to disclose his accepting kickbacks from lawyers and bail bondsmen while he was a state court judge.
The concept of bribery in the Constitution is expansive because an impeachment proceeding is neither criminal nor civil. It is a unique process designed to remove federal officials who have shown themselves unworthy of holding federal public office. It is for that reason that the conduct in question need not be criminal to warrant removal. As Alexander Hamilton put it: Is it not a method of National Inquest into the conduct of public men?
Prof. Turleys reliance on the Warren Hastings impeachment isnt apt. Impeachment in England was a criminal proceeding dating back to the 14th century. The penalty could involve losing your head. Although the Framers incorporated the language of high Crimes and Misdemeanorsinto the Constitution from English practice, the only penalty in this country is loss of ones federal position and a possible bar from holding future federal office.
Alan I. Baron
Washington
https://www.wsj.com/articles/madison-schiff-bribery-and-impeachment-11575933198 (paid subscription)
rzemanfl
(29,557 posts)Thanks. K&R. n/t
question everything
(47,476 posts)dem4decades
(11,288 posts)Of course MSNBC 's Pete Williams had Barr on today , MSNBC is shit too.
question everything
(47,476 posts)Pete Williams has not appeared in front of a committee and is a regular correspondent.
Hekate
(90,674 posts)Do you watch MSNBC on even an occasional basis? They've developed a fine roster of investigative journalists and journalists who bring in excellent panelists for interview.
dem4decades
(11,288 posts)I'll tell you why, Barr wouldn't have given the interview because it wouldn't be friendly territory. MSNBC became Fox News at noon yesterday. But at least we know Fox is Republican propaganda, Williams let MSNBC be Republican propaganda under the cover of its "liberal" reputation. That is worse in my opinion.
Yes i watch MSNBC, i watch Ari. He at least asks the tough questions. I like his guests, especially Flannery.
Joinfortmill
(14,417 posts)Perseus
(4,341 posts)How they lie. Castro, the GOP lawyer was so blatantly lying, it was embarrassing.
UTUSN
(70,686 posts)LiberalFighter
(50,912 posts)1) One of the reasons they included impeachment was to avoid the president being assassinated. Benjamin Franklin supported impeachment as favorable to the executive; where it was not available and the chief magistrate had rendered himself obnoxious, recourse was had to assassination.
2) At the time of that the Constitution was adopted there were no federal crimes. No laws against bribery. Therefore impeachment does not necessarily require a crime.