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question everything

(47,476 posts)
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:09 PM Dec 2019

Jonathan Turley, here is your ass on a platter

He had an op-ed in the WSJ that I did not bother to read.

But today there are two letters.. Ari Melber, who was furious that Turely wanted to amend the Constitution, will feel vindicated.


Jonathan Turley should reread his copy of James Madison’s “Notes of Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787.” In “Adam Schiff’s Capacious Definition of Bribery Was Tried in 1787” (op-ed, Nov. 29), Mr. Turley says that the Framers “rejected” various definitions of impeachable offenses: “‘corruption,’ obtaining office by improper means, betraying one’s trust to a foreign power, ‘negligence,’ ‘perfidy,’ ‘peculation’ and ‘oppression.’”

He is wrong. Those words were raised by various delegates (including Madison) to defend the impeachment power after other delegates made a motion to eliminate impeachment completely. The delegates weren’t debating the specific details of how to define impeachable offenses that day (July 20, 1787). They didn’t even appoint a committee to draft the actual text of the Constitution until the following week.

In fact, the delegates’ defense of impeachment—using the very words that Mr. Turley incorrectly says were “rejected”—was so persuasive that one of the delegates who made the motion to eliminate impeachment, Gouverneur Morris, changed his mind and agreed that impeachment was a “necessity.”

Curiously, Mr. Turley fails to mention the one argument that the delegates did consider and reject that day—that elections would be a sufficient check on the president’s exercise of his powers. After considering the arguments on that point, the states voted 8-2 to allow impeachment rather than relying solely on the electoral process.

If we are going to care about the Framers’ intent (and we should), we have to do it honestly and accurately, without regard to partisan politics. And like Gouverneur Morris, we should be willing to change our opinions when we are wrong. Madison’s “Notes”—the actual notes, not editorialists’ spin on them—are an essential place to start for anyone interested in understanding what the Framers were thinking.

Jeremy Lawrence

Redwood City, Calif.

I served as special impeachment counsel to the House of Representatives for the impeachment and removal of four federal judges, including former judge, G. Thomas Porteous Jr.

Prof. Turley implies that his client, Judge Porteous, was exonerated by the Senate because “the lead House manager [Adam Schiff] sought to convict my client on the novel theory that even conduct before taking office could be impeachable.”

To the extent Prof. Turley is implying that the “novel theory” was rejected by the Senate, the exact opposite is true. By an overwhelming bipartisan majority of 90-6, Porteous was convicted in the Senate of failing to disclose his accepting kickbacks from lawyers and bail bondsmen while he was a state court judge.

The concept of bribery in the Constitution is expansive because an impeachment proceeding is neither criminal nor civil. It is a unique process designed to remove federal officials who have shown themselves unworthy of holding federal public office. It is for that reason that the conduct in question need not be criminal to warrant removal. As Alexander Hamilton put it: “Is it not a method of National Inquest into the conduct of public men?”

Prof. Turley’s reliance on the Warren Hastings impeachment isn’t apt. Impeachment in England was a criminal proceeding dating back to the 14th century. The penalty could involve losing your head. Although the Framers incorporated the language of “high Crimes and Misdemeanors”into the Constitution from English practice, the only penalty in this country is loss of one’s federal position and a possible bar from holding future federal office.

Alan I. Baron

Washington

https://www.wsj.com/articles/madison-schiff-bribery-and-impeachment-11575933198 (paid subscription)

10 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Jonathan Turley, here is your ass on a platter (Original Post) question everything Dec 2019 OP
Please correct your spelling in the subject line. rzemanfl Dec 2019 #1
OOps. Thanks. Done. question everything Dec 2019 #2
Turley was CBS's "expert" yesterday during the hearing. CBS is shit. dem4decades Dec 2019 #3
Yes, I wonder about CBS. At least for the duration they should put him aside question everything Dec 2019 #4
Right. Damn an entire network's journalists because of one interview. Hekate Dec 2019 #6
I saw Dick Cheney's mouthpiece let Barr trash the FBI. Why not let Ari interview him? dem4decades Dec 2019 #10
Turley is a bought and paid for GOP shill Joinfortmill Dec 2019 #5
Turley is selling himself for a position on the Supreme Court if one came available Perseus Dec 2019 #7
K&R UTUSN Dec 2019 #8
Two points from my research. LiberalFighter Dec 2019 #9

dem4decades

(11,288 posts)
3. Turley was CBS's "expert" yesterday during the hearing. CBS is shit.
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:30 PM
Dec 2019

Of course MSNBC 's Pete Williams had Barr on today , MSNBC is shit too.

question everything

(47,476 posts)
4. Yes, I wonder about CBS. At least for the duration they should put him aside
Tue Dec 10, 2019, 11:33 PM
Dec 2019

Pete Williams has not appeared in front of a committee and is a regular correspondent.

Hekate

(90,674 posts)
6. Right. Damn an entire network's journalists because of one interview.
Wed Dec 11, 2019, 12:47 AM
Dec 2019

Do you watch MSNBC on even an occasional basis? They've developed a fine roster of investigative journalists and journalists who bring in excellent panelists for interview.

dem4decades

(11,288 posts)
10. I saw Dick Cheney's mouthpiece let Barr trash the FBI. Why not let Ari interview him?
Wed Dec 11, 2019, 08:14 AM
Dec 2019

I'll tell you why, Barr wouldn't have given the interview because it wouldn't be friendly territory. MSNBC became Fox News at noon yesterday. But at least we know Fox is Republican propaganda, Williams let MSNBC be Republican propaganda under the cover of its "liberal" reputation. That is worse in my opinion.

Yes i watch MSNBC, i watch Ari. He at least asks the tough questions. I like his guests, especially Flannery.

 

Perseus

(4,341 posts)
7. Turley is selling himself for a position on the Supreme Court if one came available
Wed Dec 11, 2019, 12:52 AM
Dec 2019

How they lie. Castro, the GOP lawyer was so blatantly lying, it was embarrassing.

LiberalFighter

(50,912 posts)
9. Two points from my research.
Wed Dec 11, 2019, 01:27 AM
Dec 2019

1) One of the reasons they included impeachment was to avoid the president being assassinated. Benjamin Franklin supported impeachment as ‘‘favorable to the executive’’; where it was not available and the chief magistrate had ‘‘rendered himself obnoxious,’’ recourse was had to assassination.

2) At the time of that the Constitution was adopted there were no federal crimes. No laws against bribery. Therefore impeachment does not necessarily require a crime.

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