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Amishman

(5,523 posts)
Sun May 10, 2020, 08:52 AM May 2020

The wheels seem to be coming off the quarantine in PA

Beaver county is allowing businesses to open in defiance of the stay at home order. Some other counties are making noise about following their example. Several county DA offices say they will not pursue charges against businesses violating the governor's orders.

Several county sheriff's departments say they won't take action against businesses over the quarantine.

Police are increasingly unwilling to cite for violations, endlessly just issuing verbal warnings or ignoring it completely.

Again, this all in purple or red parts of the state, I don't know if this is true in Philly/Pittsburgh.

Anyone else seeing growing defiance? I'm not talking about a handful of right-wing nut jobs protesting, I'm talking about in the mainstream.

At the beginning of April I posted repeatedly that we were 4 weeks or so from a social breaking point, and now it does seem to be beginning

32 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The wheels seem to be coming off the quarantine in PA (Original Post) Amishman May 2020 OP
Polk County Wi. old guy May 2020 #1
Then get ready for the 2nd wave CanonRay May 2020 #2
My county, Lebanon, PA is defying Wolf. Butterflylady May 2020 #3
The Trump areas are defiant ones SallyHemmings May 2020 #4
It is anecdotal genxlib May 2020 #5
Where I live there are graduation parties for seniors. Igel May 2020 #9
Neighbors had party last night. Lady told me she has been "good" for weeks and is fed up with it. Midnight Writer May 2020 #14
Hope she doesn't lose it in the process of taking it back. ooky May 2020 #18
I'll be keeping my distance from them. I hope no one gets sick. Midnight Writer May 2020 #22
Gym owner on the news last night in the Sharon/Hermitage PA area Ohiogal May 2020 #6
A better safety net and a clear message from the powers that be blaze May 2020 #7
Better assistance for businesses too Amishman May 2020 #8
Then EMTs and hospital personnel should tell the people who defy the quarantine blueinredohio May 2020 #10
+1, this is what should be told to the PA and DA's who are encouraging breaking quarantine ... uponit7771 May 2020 #12
Yeah, letting people die is a terrific solution. Not at all extreme and grotesque. Jedi Guy May 2020 #13
Why should the front line workers put their lives on the line for idiots? blueinredohio May 2020 #15
Because that's the job they swore to do when they became a nurse/doctor. Jedi Guy May 2020 #16
Are they able to save people's lives when SlogginThroughIt May 2020 #20
Out of curiosity, do you support the death penalty? N/T Jedi Guy May 2020 #23
nope SlogginThroughIt May 2020 #24
Not surprising, but also not consistent with your position on this matter. N/T Jedi Guy May 2020 #26
Yeah thats a ridiculous take SlogginThroughIt May 2020 #29
Not particularly, no. Jedi Guy May 2020 #30
Sounds like those DA's are encouraging homicide by not enforcing virus laws or edicts uponit7771 May 2020 #11
Here is the situation DeminPennswoods May 2020 #17
that sounds quite sane and logical...thanks. n/t stillcool May 2020 #21
Thanks I agree with your analysis FakeNoose May 2020 #28
I haven't seen any magat protesters around here, yortsed snacilbuper May 2020 #19
I plan to continue as if the stay at home orders haven't been lifted. roamer65 May 2020 #25
Last I saw, Wolf has an over 70% approval rating mvd May 2020 #27
Is the stay at home order a blanket one? gratuitous May 2020 #31
PA's is somewhat flexible, but definitely could use some refinement Amishman May 2020 #32

SallyHemmings

(1,808 posts)
4. The Trump areas are defiant ones
Sun May 10, 2020, 09:14 AM
May 2020

You can tell the areas that watch Fox garbage. But I remain hopeful. The last two elections in the Philly suburbs tossed out the Republicans.




genxlib

(5,484 posts)
5. It is anecdotal
Sun May 10, 2020, 09:15 AM
May 2020

But I noticed a significant uptick in neighborhood parties this weekend. We walk every evening and there were a lot more full driveways and noisy houses.

I think many people have given up and are ready to move on. For the most part, that is the message that they are getting from the "leadership"

Midnight Writer

(21,285 posts)
14. Neighbors had party last night. Lady told me she has been "good" for weeks and is fed up with it.
Sun May 10, 2020, 02:34 PM
May 2020

This is an upscale professional couple with children. She hollered at me across the fence and said she was willing to go along with restrictions, but the whole thing has just got too silly.

She's going to "take her life back".

Midnight Writer

(21,285 posts)
22. I'll be keeping my distance from them. I hope no one gets sick.
Sun May 10, 2020, 10:08 PM
May 2020

But it's kind of like driving by a car and seeing kids with no seatbelts or car seats, just dancing around in the SUV.

You just get a bad feeling about it.

Ohiogal

(31,222 posts)
6. Gym owner on the news last night in the Sharon/Hermitage PA area
Sun May 10, 2020, 09:16 AM
May 2020

Opening up in defiance of orders. Said the police issue a citation every day he’s open but he has “no choice”.

I sometimes wonder, if we had a more robust social safety net like they do in Europe, would these people still disobey orders just to be contrary to a Democratic Governor?

blaze

(6,167 posts)
7. A better safety net and a clear message from the powers that be
Sun May 10, 2020, 09:23 AM
May 2020

I suspect there are more than a few people who would prefer to continue stay home.... but no food and no money is a very strong motivator.

Amishman

(5,523 posts)
8. Better assistance for businesses too
Sun May 10, 2020, 09:28 AM
May 2020

Helping the owner personally won't save their business from bankruptcy.

blueinredohio

(6,797 posts)
10. Then EMTs and hospital personnel should tell the people who defy the quarantine
Sun May 10, 2020, 12:02 PM
May 2020

the hospital will not treat them.

uponit7771

(90,152 posts)
12. +1, this is what should be told to the PA and DA's who are encouraging breaking quarantine ...
Sun May 10, 2020, 12:23 PM
May 2020

... for the sake of money.

These people are stupid, there's no way I"d be a front line worker in an area where they're not going to enforce quarantine edicts

Jedi Guy

(3,153 posts)
13. Yeah, letting people die is a terrific solution. Not at all extreme and grotesque.
Sun May 10, 2020, 12:38 PM
May 2020

And not at all a violation of the Hippocratic Oath, either.

Jedi Guy

(3,153 posts)
16. Because that's the job they swore to do when they became a nurse/doctor.
Sun May 10, 2020, 07:46 PM
May 2020

Because saving lives is the right thing to do. Because you can't conclusively prove that a sick person acquired their infection at a protest. Because letting people die, when they might otherwise be saved, because you dislike their behavior is grotesque and evil. Because a dead person has no chance to learn, change, or grow.

Those are all excellent reasons to stand against the vile course of action you suggest.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
20. Are they able to save people's lives when
Sun May 10, 2020, 10:00 PM
May 2020

Are they able to save people's lives when they are swamped helping people that refused to follow the orders given to stay home?

The entire reason for stay at home orders was to keep the front line workers from becoming swamped. If these people decide to not follow those orders and the front line workers end up not being able to provide care to those that got sick without going to grad parties and other social events then how is that right for them and the rest of the people. We were given an order to save people's lives And people are deciding they need a fucking haircut instead. Sorry but if that's your choice you can live with it. Or die with it as it may be.

Fuck em.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
29. Yeah thats a ridiculous take
Wed May 13, 2020, 10:35 AM
May 2020

Honestly thats a really stupid connection you are making. For many reasons.

Jedi Guy

(3,153 posts)
30. Not particularly, no.
Wed May 13, 2020, 06:39 PM
May 2020

There's not a lot of moral difference between killing a person through action and allowing them to die via inaction. In the case of the death penalty, the person is being killed because they violated a societal standard. In the case of your proposed "solution" to this particular wrinkle in the response to Covid-19, the person is allowed to die because they also violated a societal standard.

I don't really see a whole lot of difference there, morally speaking.

DeminPennswoods

(15,231 posts)
17. Here is the situation
Sun May 10, 2020, 09:10 PM
May 2020

On May 1st, Wolf allowed all construction to resume and all contractors to re-open. Hospitals were also allowed to resume elective and postponed surgeries.

He then announced criteria for regions (SW, SE, NW, NE, etc) that would qualify them to move to the 1st stage of re-opening starting on May 8th. The criteria included less than 50 new cases/100k of population and for hospitals to have the capacity to handle a surge in infections. Unsurprisingly, the first regions to move from "red" to "yellow" were the NW and north central ones. Outside of Erie county, most of the region is lightly populated and has had few cases of cv19 and related deaths.

SW Pa, including Allegheny county (Pittsburgh), counties were disappointed as they had met the criteria outlined. This past Friday, Wolf announced the SW region, except Beaver county, could move from "red" to "yellow". The reason Beaver county was not allowed to re-open is because there is a huge outbreak of cv19 at the largest nursing home in the state. It accounts for nearly 3 in 4 cases of cv19 and 90% of the deaths in the county. Suffice it to say, there has been plenty of finger-pointing about why infections at this facility got so out of hand. Despite the dire predictions of staff spreading the virus when they went home, that has not really happened. Beaver county would like to have the outbreak at the nursing home not be counted in the criteria stats, but the DoH/Gov have refused. The county commissioners felt county residents had done as Wolf has asked and meet his criteria for re-opening if the nursing home cases/deaths are excluded. I'm sure they are also concerned that residents will travel to the surrounding counties to shop and to Ohio, which we border, to shop, dine and get haircuts. That is the logic behind the commissioners deciding to defy Wolf and re-open this coming Friday.

Sullivan county has also decided to defy Wolf and move itself to "yellow" from "red" as they also meet Wolf's original criteria.

Unfortunately, Wolf has sort of moved the goal posts by including unknown "subjective" criteria in his decision-making process. That makes the counties feel like they don't know exactly what they have to do to start re-opening. The decision-making seems capricious.

I should note that NO county is planning to just open up everything. They are complying with the "yellow" criteria (retail open and gatherings up to 25, but no gyms/haircuts/bars/restaurants/theatres/takeout, delivery only).

I believe the only reason some counties are deciding to defy "red" designation is solely an effort to save local small businesses which are the ones that have been the ones hurt most by the shut down. That's what it is here in Beaver county, of which I am a resident.

FakeNoose

(32,025 posts)
28. Thanks I agree with your analysis
Wed May 13, 2020, 09:25 AM
May 2020

I don't have any insider's info, but I live in Allegheny County and I've been following this story in the news media. Beaver County was sort of screwed, and I can see why they don't want to wait for the yellow designation from the Governor. Beaver is mostly rural and small-town except for the southern part that's adjacent to Allegheny County.

Also I have a good friend who lives in Lancaster County and he tells me that Lancaster has decided to go rogue and ignore the Governor's red/yellow criteria. They're opening up Lancaster County already this week (they're still red) and ignoring the governor's warnings. So we'll see, it's all very scary for us older and at-risk citizens.



yortsed snacilbuper

(7,939 posts)
19. I haven't seen any magat protesters around here,
Sun May 10, 2020, 09:51 PM
May 2020

I live on the west side of Pittsburgh, when I go to the store everybody is wearing a mask.

roamer65

(36,729 posts)
25. I plan to continue as if the stay at home orders haven't been lifted.
Tue May 12, 2020, 10:54 PM
May 2020

This is now about an economic war on COVID-45.

mvd

(65,123 posts)
27. Last I saw, Wolf has an over 70% approval rating
Wed May 13, 2020, 09:10 AM
May 2020

He has done a great job. We’ve seen daily cases under 1,000 in the state on more days. It’s frustrating to stay red, but Wolf and Levine know more than these rogue county commissioners. It’s also a vocal minority spewing all the vitriol.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
31. Is the stay at home order a blanket one?
Wed May 13, 2020, 06:51 PM
May 2020

In Oregon, we started off with a blanket stay-at-home order, and the rural counties chafed and whined about it. But now that the state is seeing positive results from people isolating, Phase 1 is due to begin on Friday. There is a set of criteria laid out to qualify for a gradual lifting of restrictions, and 32 of the 36 counties (missing the three metro counties, Multnomah, Washington, and Clackamas, and the county with the state capitol and the highest rates of infection, Marion) have applied to begin Phase 1.

On Friday, the Governor is scheduled to grant or deny permission for the counties that have applied to being Phase 1 based on whether they've met the criteria to do so. Some in the rural counties are still grousing, but with a definite path forward, they're continuing to play ball. It's been an effective plan to get everyone on the same page.

Is Pennsylvania pursuing a uniform order for all parts of the state, or is it flexible depending on population density, rates of infection, and so forth? Yeah, I know: Some parts of the population are pretty dense, and it has nothing to do with how crowded the area is.

Amishman

(5,523 posts)
32. PA's is somewhat flexible, but definitely could use some refinement
Thu May 14, 2020, 07:07 AM
May 2020

The rules on what can be open and what can be closed are badly flawed, with a very unfortunate result of crushing small business to the benefit of big box stores. Also some counties have met the partial reopen criteria but the governor's office is dragging their feet in giving the OK, and also isn't explaining the delay.

It also does not account for population density and where the infections are. Beaver county is the one that started this rebellion, and to be honest they had a fairly legitimate dispute in that almost all their cases are in a couple nursing homes. The virus is not spreading widely in their area.

The state is also doing nothing significant to help businesses and the unemployed. This is my main gripe, and really should be main criticism of PA's handling of this.

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