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Miigwech

(3,741 posts)
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 07:59 PM Jun 2020

First of all, this is not to denigrate our military

I had raised this problem of who are hired to become police officers years ago and almost got my head handed to me, here on DU, of all places. Well, I probably went overboard in my opinion so folks here corrected me, way back then. Now I will try again to state my case again without going overboard.

Follow me here. Our country has had a 20 year war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Many military police have come out of a War Zone with a war zone mentality. The first thing that these ex-military police do is apply to work as correctional officers and mostly into OUR LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS!

Most of these officers were never properly trained to operate in a civilian zone. Also, these ex-military police, many now running these said police departs. (after having risen up the ranks) directing their depts. to become more militaristic. All the billions spent around the country to buy every toy that these police departs want from military surplus.

I put this issue to a Washington Post reporter years ago, just to look into this theory, after a tragic killing (I can't even remember now what extrajudicial killing prompted me).. I was told that the investigation would be mute because no one can access personal files of police officers to find out if an officer had served in a war zone and what training was received, or not. Not even allowed to know if the military had a complaint filed against that person.

We need the military out of our police departments ... is it too late? Reform is going to be a bare knuckle brawl.

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First of all, this is not to denigrate our military (Original Post) Miigwech Jun 2020 OP
Definitely agree. They view citizens and enemy civilians. They see themselves as Dream Girl Jun 2020 #1
Exactly, well said, occupying force in our neighborhoods. Miigwech Jun 2020 #4
Absolutely, like Tom Clancy wrote in dugog55 Jun 2020 #2
True, I have a family member who served in Vietnam and he would even Miigwech Jun 2020 #5
It's not an accurate depiction of most military personnel, let alone MPs. spicysista Jun 2020 #3
Thank you for allowing me to keep my head Miigwech Jun 2020 #6
No, I think we need to think outside of the box. spicysista Jun 2020 #11
Thank you for your response. TomSlick Jun 2020 #10
Thank you for your service! spicysista Jun 2020 #12
My greatest honor was to be allowed to serve. TomSlick Jun 2020 #13
Thank you for chiming in on this. mahina Jun 2020 #16
Additionally, new report Miigwech Jun 2020 #7
This may or may not be pertinent or even accurate but you brought to mind what I heard was a key marked50 Jun 2020 #8
Very interesting connection. Miigwech Jun 2020 #14
Don't think people who are/were attracted to killing Muslims make the Hoyt Jun 2020 #9
I disagree that we would want former military out of policing mahina Jun 2020 #15
Right? spicysista Jun 2020 #17
Yes, you need to be heard. In no way any disrespect to you nor your husband Miigwech Jun 2020 #20
Thank you, Miigwech. spicysista Jun 2020 #24
You are welcome, and thank you that. Miigwech Jun 2020 #25
Demilitarize the police. Iggo Jun 2020 #18
Anyone want to start that hashtag? Miigwech Jun 2020 #22
Perhaps before that step, we stop them from taking Bettie Jun 2020 #19
Exactly, why are they having traing like this? Miigwech Jun 2020 #21
I'd like to know that too Bettie Jun 2020 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author Sewa Jun 2020 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author Sewa Jun 2020 #27

dugog55

(296 posts)
2. Absolutely, like Tom Clancy wrote in
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 08:18 PM
Jun 2020

"Patriot Games", :you are a policeman or a soldier, you cannot be both," I think the vast majority of ex-military are unfit for civilian police work. How anyone could look at their sweet ten year old son and hope that he becomes a soldier is beyond me. All the military does is indoctrinate you into killing other people. I really do not think anyone that sees active duty is ever the same person as they were before joining the service. Most men that saw duty in WWII would not talk about it. Too terrible of memories they do not want to share and would like to forget.

 

Miigwech

(3,741 posts)
5. True, I have a family member who served in Vietnam and he would even
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 08:26 PM
Jun 2020

say how he was not the same after his service. He has struggle his whole life with PTSD ... they took a beautiful, young man and turned his life into a total hell. He is doing ok, he manages just like his brothers in arms have had to.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
3. It's not an accurate depiction of most military personnel, let alone MPs.
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 08:19 PM
Jun 2020

I wish our police departments behaved more like MPs. They have very strict rules of engagement with the citizenry of foreign countries. Do not confuse them with special forces and tactical teams. Huge numbers folks aren't even all combat veterans (never seen a battlefield)!
In typical small town American law enforcement agencies, it's all about the dollar. The only way many of them increase their budgets is by targeting the same people they're supposed to protect. This creates incentives for more contact with Joe and Sue Public. As far as the weapons of war, well they've got to spend that money on something. If not, the money goes back into the city budget and their piece of the pie is smaller during the next fiscal year.
Just my opinion, not here to hand your head to you.

 

Miigwech

(3,741 posts)
6. Thank you for allowing me to keep my head
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 08:30 PM
Jun 2020

Your explanation is very informative and helpful for me. MP's training, a good solution?

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
11. No, I think we need to think outside of the box.
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 08:57 PM
Jun 2020

I am sorry it took so long to respond. Making dinner for the family!

I believe our entire approach to policing needs changing. We need to have a clear idea of what crime is and we, as a society , need to decide what do we want our policing to be.
I will say, military MPs have much more clarity on their objectives and they are readily held accountable by their peers and superiors. The policy checks a good amount of the baked in biases and negative attitudes. Accountability and consequences, these are huge differences.

Some interesting conversations on the topic:







https://theconversation.com/why-the-us-military-usually-punishes-misconduct-but-police-often-close-ranks-127898

https://understated.home.blog/2020/06/21/a-better-militarization-why-police-should-adopt-military-cultures-and-structures-of-accountability-and-restraint/

From the article.....

If the problem is “militarization”, why do US military troops in the Philippines, postwar Germany, Japan, Korea and even Iraq screw up less and respond to screw-ups better than the police back home? The propensities for disaster certainly seem far broader. Language barriers, cultural gaps, lingering postwar hatreds and animosities exist in spades. A degree of hidden racism must undoubtedly exist as well, as a product of prolonged war. And yet, US soldiers think more before shooting children in countries where irregular plain-clothes child soldiers exist than US police do before gunning down unarmed black kids.

Clearly, the term “militarization” has become disconnected from any reasonable idea of military structures and ideas and has rather been appropriated to refer to intense arming. This possibly reflects a troubling cultural phenomenon across the world – the tendency to view the military and military success purely in the language of weaponry and lethality. More importantly, this gap in language provides cover for bad actors to strawman and obfuscate. Intensely armed police might need to more explicitly prove their ability to use weaponry with discipline on top of their need for such weapons, whilst “militarized” police might be supposed to already have such discipline and training, and thus only need to prove a need for military weapons.


TomSlick

(11,098 posts)
10. Thank you for your response.
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 08:54 PM
Jun 2020

I have been both an Army JAG and a civilian lawyer. As a result, I have experience with both MPs and civilian police. MPs are more disciplined and better trained than most civilian police. In my experience, the best civilian police are former or reserve component MPs.

marked50

(1,366 posts)
8. This may or may not be pertinent or even accurate but you brought to mind what I heard was a key
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 08:51 PM
Jun 2020

component of the rise of Fascism in Spain under France in the early 20's. I have read that a good portion of his support came from the military who had fought in WW1. They had undergone the trauma's of that time and had not been reintegrated in society. They held lots of animosity for the political powers at the time and wanted a change that meet their needs and expectations. Franco gave them that and the rest is history.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
9. Don't think people who are/were attracted to killing Muslims make the
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 08:53 PM
Jun 2020

best police officers, honestly. That’s pretty much what we’ve been doing for 40 years.

Clearly, there are exceptions.

mahina

(17,656 posts)
15. I disagree that we would want former military out of policing
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 09:04 PM
Jun 2020

Most are good!

The bad ones are criminals and need to be expelled.

How could serving our country be cause to not keep someone in a job. Mercy.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
17. Right?
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 09:16 PM
Jun 2020

It's a little disheartening for me, personally. I've been the ombudsmen of my husband's comnand. They are some of the finest people I have ever known. The idea that very same service would hinder them in anyway breaks my heart. It's why the work done by the former first lady was so important for the troops.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/08/12/michelle-obama-time-to-find-jobs-for-military-veterans-at-home

 

Miigwech

(3,741 posts)
20. Yes, you need to be heard. In no way any disrespect to you nor your husband
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 09:44 PM
Jun 2020

I am sure he served us proudly, being the best of the best among us. Bless you and your husband, like I said, I have no animosity toward our military, just the training they get in order to transition into a civilian policing. Yes, your husband and friends are some of the finest. Never forget that, I don't. My dad served in WWII and I have two nephews serving presently. Marines and Army Ranger! Proud of them too. But, we need to end military corruption of our police force. It damages us all.

Bettie

(16,109 posts)
19. Perhaps before that step, we stop them from taking
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 09:40 PM
Jun 2020

"Warrior" style training. That would help.

Deescalation training too.

Bettie

(16,109 posts)
23. I'd like to know that too
Fri Jun 26, 2020, 09:49 PM
Jun 2020

it seems like police departments that have sponsored these training sessions are specifically telling their officers that taking a life isn't a big deal.

Yes, some cops take the sessions on their own as well, which is just as problematic.

Response to Miigwech (Original post)

Response to Sewa (Reply #26)

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