General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFirst of all, this is not to denigrate our military
I had raised this problem of who are hired to become police officers years ago and almost got my head handed to me, here on DU, of all places. Well, I probably went overboard in my opinion so folks here corrected me, way back then. Now I will try again to state my case again without going overboard.
Follow me here. Our country has had a 20 year war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Many military police have come out of a War Zone with a war zone mentality. The first thing that these ex-military police do is apply to work as correctional officers and mostly into OUR LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS!
Most of these officers were never properly trained to operate in a civilian zone. Also, these ex-military police, many now running these said police departs. (after having risen up the ranks) directing their depts. to become more militaristic. All the billions spent around the country to buy every toy that these police departs want from military surplus.
I put this issue to a Washington Post reporter years ago, just to look into this theory, after a tragic killing (I can't even remember now what extrajudicial killing prompted me).. I was told that the investigation would be mute because no one can access personal files of police officers to find out if an officer had served in a war zone and what training was received, or not. Not even allowed to know if the military had a complaint filed against that person.
We need the military out of our police departments ... is it too late? Reform is going to be a bare knuckle brawl.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)an occupying army.
Miigwech
(3,741 posts)dugog55
(296 posts)"Patriot Games", :you are a policeman or a soldier, you cannot be both," I think the vast majority of ex-military are unfit for civilian police work. How anyone could look at their sweet ten year old son and hope that he becomes a soldier is beyond me. All the military does is indoctrinate you into killing other people. I really do not think anyone that sees active duty is ever the same person as they were before joining the service. Most men that saw duty in WWII would not talk about it. Too terrible of memories they do not want to share and would like to forget.
Miigwech
(3,741 posts)say how he was not the same after his service. He has struggle his whole life with PTSD ... they took a beautiful, young man and turned his life into a total hell. He is doing ok, he manages just like his brothers in arms have had to.
spicysista
(1,663 posts)I wish our police departments behaved more like MPs. They have very strict rules of engagement with the citizenry of foreign countries. Do not confuse them with special forces and tactical teams. Huge numbers folks aren't even all combat veterans (never seen a battlefield)!
In typical small town American law enforcement agencies, it's all about the dollar. The only way many of them increase their budgets is by targeting the same people they're supposed to protect. This creates incentives for more contact with Joe and Sue Public. As far as the weapons of war, well they've got to spend that money on something. If not, the money goes back into the city budget and their piece of the pie is smaller during the next fiscal year.
Just my opinion, not here to hand your head to you.
Miigwech
(3,741 posts)Your explanation is very informative and helpful for me. MP's training, a good solution?
spicysista
(1,663 posts)I am sorry it took so long to respond. Making dinner for the family!
I believe our entire approach to policing needs changing. We need to have a clear idea of what crime is and we, as a society , need to decide what do we want our policing to be.
I will say, military MPs have much more clarity on their objectives and they are readily held accountable by their peers and superiors. The policy checks a good amount of the baked in biases and negative attitudes. Accountability and consequences, these are huge differences.
Some interesting conversations on the topic:
https://theconversation.com/why-the-us-military-usually-punishes-misconduct-but-police-often-close-ranks-127898
https://understated.home.blog/2020/06/21/a-better-militarization-why-police-should-adopt-military-cultures-and-structures-of-accountability-and-restraint/
From the article.....
If the problem is militarization, why do US military troops in the Philippines, postwar Germany, Japan, Korea and even Iraq screw up less and respond to screw-ups better than the police back home? The propensities for disaster certainly seem far broader. Language barriers, cultural gaps, lingering postwar hatreds and animosities exist in spades. A degree of hidden racism must undoubtedly exist as well, as a product of prolonged war. And yet, US soldiers think more before shooting children in countries where irregular plain-clothes child soldiers exist than US police do before gunning down unarmed black kids.
Clearly, the term militarization has become disconnected from any reasonable idea of military structures and ideas and has rather been appropriated to refer to intense arming. This possibly reflects a troubling cultural phenomenon across the world the tendency to view the military and military success purely in the language of weaponry and lethality. More importantly, this gap in language provides cover for bad actors to strawman and obfuscate. Intensely armed police might need to more explicitly prove their ability to use weaponry with discipline on top of their need for such weapons, whilst militarized police might be supposed to already have such discipline and training, and thus only need to prove a need for military weapons.
TomSlick
(11,098 posts)I have been both an Army JAG and a civilian lawyer. As a result, I have experience with both MPs and civilian police. MPs are more disciplined and better trained than most civilian police. In my experience, the best civilian police are former or reserve component MPs.
spicysista
(1,663 posts)TomSlick
(11,098 posts)mahina
(17,656 posts)And for everything. I posted below.
Miigwech
(3,741 posts)marked50
(1,366 posts)component of the rise of Fascism in Spain under France in the early 20's. I have read that a good portion of his support came from the military who had fought in WW1. They had undergone the trauma's of that time and had not been reintegrated in society. They held lots of animosity for the political powers at the time and wanted a change that meet their needs and expectations. Franco gave them that and the rest is history.
Miigwech
(3,741 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)best police officers, honestly. Thats pretty much what weve been doing for 40 years.
Clearly, there are exceptions.
mahina
(17,656 posts)Most are good!
The bad ones are criminals and need to be expelled.
How could serving our country be cause to not keep someone in a job. Mercy.
It's a little disheartening for me, personally. I've been the ombudsmen of my husband's comnand. They are some of the finest people I have ever known. The idea that very same service would hinder them in anyway breaks my heart. It's why the work done by the former first lady was so important for the troops.
https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2011/08/12/michelle-obama-time-to-find-jobs-for-military-veterans-at-home
Miigwech
(3,741 posts)I am sure he served us proudly, being the best of the best among us. Bless you and your husband, like I said, I have no animosity toward our military, just the training they get in order to transition into a civilian policing. Yes, your husband and friends are some of the finest. Never forget that, I don't. My dad served in WWII and I have two nephews serving presently. Marines and Army Ranger! Proud of them too. But, we need to end military corruption of our police force. It damages us all.
spicysista
(1,663 posts)Miigwech
(3,741 posts)Iggo
(47,552 posts)Not as catchy as "defund".
Miigwech
(3,741 posts)Bettie
(16,109 posts)"Warrior" style training. That would help.
Deescalation training too.
Miigwech
(3,741 posts)Bettie
(16,109 posts)it seems like police departments that have sponsored these training sessions are specifically telling their officers that taking a life isn't a big deal.
Yes, some cops take the sessions on their own as well, which is just as problematic.
Response to Miigwech (Original post)
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