"Magic underwear" - I'm a Catholic and I wear several holy medals -

[hedgehog]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Spazito (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Anyone here ready to mock me for wearing "magic metal"?


Trust me, there are a lot of reasons to criticize Mitt, we don't need to use this nasty mantra!

[Bonhomme Richard]

1. +1 n/t

[nichomachus]

2. If you think the medals

are miraculous and can save you from gunshots, fire, etc., then yes, I'll mock you.

[rug]

8. Since that is not their purpose, allow me to mock your ignorance.

[nichomachus]

14. Wow -- can't argue

With such a fact-laden and well presented argument.

Many Mormons do think that the garments have miraculous powers. Sumner Redstone, when he escaped from a fire in a hotel, attributed his escape to the garments. Others have made similar claims.

[rug]

20. By all means, show the link.

[riderinthestorm]

38. Here's one link from Wiki but there are others if you google. Prosense posted a story downthread

Some of those interviewed "asserted that the garment also provided physical protection, while others seemed less certain of any physical aspect to protection." In Mormon folklore, tales are told of Latter-day Saints who credit their temple garments with helping them survive car wrecks, fires, and natural disasters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment

[rug]

41. The citation for that is "Mormon folklore".

In contrast to: "Wearing the garment is also 'an outward expression of an inward commitment'to follow Jesus Christ." -LDS Church (2006), Church Handbook of Instructions: Book 1, Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics, Salt Lake City, Utah: LDS Church. page 80.

Referencing Prosense doesn't really add any authority.

[riderinthestorm]

43. Nope. That cite was under the temple garment's "Purpose" section

And I only mentioned ProSense because s/he had posted a link to a Mormon, a prominent one, who's very convinced in their belief in the garment's magical properties.

Honestly, I don't really care enough about the garments or holy medals to mock any of them. I was simply addressing your point that seemed to infer DUers are simply wrong for stating that there are Mormons who do believe these things. There are legitimate Mormons who DO believe it, and it isn't simply folklore.

[rug]

48. The point of the OP is that it's extraneous to political attacks.

His policies are plenty to mock without throwing Harry Reid's beliefs in to it.

[sadbear]

53. Here's one:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/jw-marriott-thanks-romney-for-bringing-attention-to-mormonism/

“I’d been involved in a very serious boat accident, here in New Hampshire. I caught fire; my polyester pants had burned off all the way to my waist. But my undergarments from my waist down to my knees had not even been singed. There was not a mark on them. And I said, these holy undergarments saved my life,” Marriott said.

[rug]

63. That's from Prosense's link which, naturally, leads to another link.

In that thread you will find:

Response to highplainsdem (Original post)
Sun Sep 2, 2012, 10:45 PM
smirkymonkey (10,001 posts)
17. Am I the only person who thinks this discussion is entirely insane?

I can't even beleive that holy underwear is part of the national discussion.

which is the most lucid comment in that thread.

One, billionaires make poor authorities;

Two, religious beliefs about underwear, particularly those held by republicans and Democrats, have no bearing on political campaigns.

[Autumn]

92. I agree with you somewhat . But when they make their religious beliefs a part of the campaign

then it does have bearing on political campaigns. Then IMO it's fair game.

[hedgehog]

75. At the aluminum plant, all clothing must be natural fiber - polyester that gets a metal splash

melts and adheres to the skin. ( You should have heard the discussion about requiring natural fiber underwear - no one knew how to enforxce that!) Polyester burns at a lower temperature than cotton - just look at any iron. I don't doubt that Mr. Marriot's pants burned while his heavy cotton (linen?)undergarments did not.

[HERVEPA]

3. Hmmmm. Trying to start a flame war by any chance?

Any chance to mock Romney is fine by me. This isn't a tea party.

[el_bryanto]

10. interesting and evocative choice of words

This isn't a tea party, but we have no trouble using their tactics.

Bryant

[hedgehog]

78. Not really.

[cynatnite]

4. It's both of yours private business how you choose to acknowledge your religion...not mine...

I just don't care and IMO, has nothing to do with what we talk about.

Now, if you were in political office and you wanted to inflict your religion on those who don't wish it....then we've got a problem.

I figure there are more important things we've got to deal with than how someone handles their religion.

[HereSince1628]

5. Buy plastic St Christopher, aim at tree!

Or bury a St. Joseph in your flower garden to protect your house. Remember, he must be placed HEAD DOWN!


Silly stupid superstitions, much? Well maybe, but unless I'm giving tax-breaks to the charlatans selling those beliefs I don't really care. Religions are just full of stuff that COULD be mocked.

Let's keep some perspective on this. If Romney/Ryan gain the WH, people will die as a consequence of 'good business decisions', as defined by Romney/Ryan. If people plant a St Joe in the garden or glue St Chris on the dashboard no one is in too deep or hurt too much.

[nichomachus]

17. No, no, no

You bury St. Joseph to help sell your house. They actually sell St. Joseph house selling kits. You can also wrap your rosary beads around your thermometer to a sure good weather the following day.

[HereSince1628]

22. Sorry, my bad, sort of...

[rug]

34. I hope we have sure good weather tomorrow.

It is the last day of summer.

[whathehell]

31. A Jew and a Gentile were walking by a synagogue one late afternoon..

an old man came out of the synagogue and asked each of the two whether or not they were Jews.

My friend cracked wise to me under his breath, asking "What's this?..an interfaith dating survey"?...I told

the old guy that I wasn't Jewish, so he asked me if I'd come in and turn out the lights in the Synagogue

as Jews werent' allowed to "work" after sundown before the Sabbath.

I gladly obliged and didn't scold him for being "silly, stupid or superstitious", although this is OBVIOULSLY

no no more rational than wearing medals or anything else in the Catholic tradition.

[bongbong]

6. For some reason

This thread makes me think of Paul Newman singing Plastic Jesus in Cool Hand Luke. (thankx mr 1628

[mike_c]

7. if you imbue them with magic powers or supernatural abilities...

...then I think you're a fool, utterly deserving of mockery. See my sig line. Religion-- including yours-- is insane.

Is that the response you were hoping for?

[rug]

9. Hey mike, do you know what a sacramental is?

[mike_c]

12. had to Google....

"A sacrament is a sacred rite recognized as of particular importance and significance. There are various views on the existence and meaning of such rites."

I don't know whether that means sacraments are believed to have supernatural powers or abilities though. Can you advise? (Fair warning though, I have class in ten minutes and won't check back into this thread until after 5:00 PM on the left coast.)

[whathehell]

16. Yes, that's what many of us do when we talk without knowing wtf we're talking about.

As for your question, I'd "advise" you to do your own research before talking out your ass again.

[rug]

18. That's correct. Medals are sacramentals that have nothing to do with magic powers.

The seven sacraments though are a means of receiving divine grace. They are from from superstion or magic.

Have a good class.

[snooper2]

23. Are the cilice used just for straight torture? That used to be underwear right

An undergarment made of rough fiber or something?

[whathehell]

44. Ask Stephen Colbert about the "cilice" and "straight torture" and Catholic "underwear" and stuff

He'd make a fabulous skit out of it!

Hint: Um...I went to Catholic School for 12 years and I never, like you, I suspect,

even HEARD of a "cilice" before reading The DaVinci Code.

[rug]

45. "Are the cilice used just for straight torture?" No.

"That used to be underwear right" No.

"An undergarment made of rough fiber or something?" No.

Any other questions?

[whathehell]

57. It can be dangerous to stand between a bigot and their stupid assumptions.

but I applaud your courage.

[JNelson6563]

56. Are you thinking of a "hair shirt"?

That was worn to cause discomfort to the wearer as a sort of penance for sins and a sort of sacrifice to prove your devotion to God.

I am unaware of it ever having been considered imbued with magic powers of any kind though.

Julie

[whathehell]

21. It's "sacramental", not "sacrament"...duh.

Maybe you can at least get the word right before you next class.

[snooper2]

25. you meant to write "before your next class", not "before you next class"

about getting the word right

[whathehell]

40. Maybe, but mine is a mere typo...His sent him to the wrong place in the dictionary.

[whathehell]

13. He doesn't, and he repeats one of the oldest anti-catholic tropes around

Uh, Mike?...Catholics do not "imbue" medals with "supernatural powers".

You might want to educate yourself before jumping on the condescension bandwagon...duh.

[REP]

73. I have a Catholic holy medal blessed by a pope, and I looked up why such things exist:

Q. 1. Why do Catholics wear and bless religious medals?

A. 1. In summary, the wearing of a medal that represents a Patron Saint is an expression of faith. The blessing of such a medal acknowledges the approval of the Catholic Church to allow the medal as a sacred symbol of the supernatural protection offered directly by our Lord, Blessed Mother or a saint. This blessing sets apart the medal as an expression of faith rather than an item of worship that has pagan roots.


http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu207.htm - just one of many references

Apparently it is thought to have supernatural powers.

(I collect religious paraphernalia of all stripes)

[whathehell]

82. You looked it up, but apparently still came away with a misinterpretation.

"Apparently it is thought to have supernatural powers"

No...Read your own definition again: it's a sacred "symbol" of the protection...etc., etc.

I was raised a Catholic. I wore medals...Never heard 'bout no "supernatural powers"....Sorry.

[ohiosmith]

24. The capitol of California?

[rug]

33. Lol.

Although it is named after the Sacramento River, which itself was named Rio de los Sacramentos, after the seven sacraments.

[whathehell]

11. Stephen Colbert is a practicing catholic, but I'm betting

progressive tv celebs might catch more of a break here from some of our

very "tolerant" religion haters although they'll

now likely make a "show" of putting down Colbert too.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

[sharp_stick]

26. Nah I doubt it

Colbert has a functioning sense of humor. He's not as easy to put down.

[whathehell]

37. LOL...Good try.

So are you telling me that none of his "co-religionists" has a functioning

sense of humor?.....That would be garbage, honey...The only

reason Colbert is "harder" to put down is because he's a celeb

on the Teevee, and we all know it.

I see a lot more humor in many "non-celeb" believers here

than I do in the many of the rude, atheist haters.

[BarackTheVote]

15. I'm with you, hedgehog, thanks for standing up!

I'm Catholic, I'm religious, I'm a 'true believer' and I'm a democrat, and every time I see these religion-mocking posts, I wonder if there's any place for me here. So, wtg making fellow democrats feel like they're second-class citizens.

As for Romney, though... I do find it funny that RWers are so, look at him, he's "pro-God"--yeah... he thinks he's going to become a God when he dies and be given a universe all his own... of COURSE he's "pro-God."

[snooper2]

19. do your holy medals help you run faster?

[rug]

35. Does your snark help you think faster?

Or is it a substitute?

[whathehell]

47. BWHAHAHAHA!

It's a substitute.

[Cleita]

27. Catholics also wear "magic outerwear" in the form of those little cloth scapulars

with the same holy properties as medals. They are a remnant of a full garment worn in the Middle Ages and by clerics back before things got modernized. You know that full length bib the nuns wore over their habits back before the reform? That is a scapular or a "magic garment" if you want to characterize it as that.

[whathehell]

55. Are yarmulkes "magic" or "holy" Hat Wear ?

Neither scapulars or medals are assigned "holy properties" by Catholics.

Do try and educate yourself

[hedgehog]

65. Given that I was assured that if I got hit by a bus while wearing the scapular,

I would be allowed in Heaven the next Saturday, the scapular might be called a "magic garment" by a non-believer.

[LaydeeBug]

28. I'm Catholic too, and I have learned to keep my rosaries off other people's ovaries, so NO

I will NOT back away from magic underwear OR Planet Kolob.

People claiming the moral high ground shouldn't so it while they're standing in quick sand. This is the battle we're IN, not the one we want to have.

[ProSense]

29. JW Marriott thanks Romney for bringing attention to Mormons, praises lifesaving "holy undergarments"

JW Marriott thanks Romney for bringing attention to Mormons, praises lifesaving "holy undergarments"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021255150

Hey, just adding more information to the debate.

[ctaylors6]

30. Thank you, hedgehog, for posting that

I agree. Maybe it's from raising kids, but I try to be very aware of the words I use when criticizing someone else. I tell my kids that when they resort to name-calling and mockery that it reflects more on them than on the person they're trying to criticize.

[Alduin]

32. Mormonism deserves every amount of mockery it gets.

Just like every other religion.

[rug]

36. So does atheism.

There's plenty of material.

[Alduin]

39. Sorry.

I don't believe in magical sky fairies or Planet Kolob.

There's more fodder for religion.

Nice try, though.

[rug]

42. That's not the mockworthy material.

[whathehell]

66. Sorry.

but if you think that the very DIVERSE religions of the world

are about "sky fairies" and "planet Kolub", you're laughably ignorant.

Nice try, though.

[Alduin]

76. Every relgion is equally laughable.

This is the 21st century. Shouldn't we be above creation myths, gods, prayers, and rituals by now?

[whathehell]

80. Really?...It's funny then, that I only see one or two of them mocked, then.

I never see Judaism mocked here...Why do you think that is?

[truebrit71]

49. Yeah, because Atheism relies on the belief of magical...oh wait...it's THE absence..

..of all of that superstition and hokey-pokey...and talking snakes and unconditional eternal love*



*some conditions apply




Silly me....

[whathehell]

61. Atheism relies on the idea that everything that's now known is ALL that can be known....Limited.

Agnostics know what they do NOT know.

It is, IMO, more intellectually honest than either "belief" or strict "non-belief" and

does not need "certainty".

[Warren DeMontague]

71. So anything that can't be proven NOT to exist, you're not willing to suggest it doesn't?

Can you prove there aren't magical leprechauns that come and disassemble the moon behind your back every time you're not observing it?

Do you believe there aren't?

People believe in "God", very few of them KNOW.

Likewise, Atheism is not believing in that which has no proof. It doesn't "rely" on anything except evidence. What you are calling "agnosticism" is really just the scientific worldview, i.e, keeping an open mind able to be revised upon new evidence.

[OriginalGeek]

81. That isn't atheism at all

No atheist I've ever met on this planet believes that all that can be known is known now.
No atheist I've ever read about believes that all that can be known is known now.


Are all the scientists in the universe gone fishing now? We know everything? Good lord.

[whathehell]

83. Are you sure?

They seem to believe that all that can be known regarding a higher power is known now,

as they seem to have concluded that there is NOT one.

[OriginalGeek]

89. Yep

I'm pretty sure. No sense believing in something that has zero evidence for it. If the evidence situation changes then beliefs may well change too. Every atheist I've ever known would be happy to see some evidence of a god. I hope he's not the one in the KJV bible though. That guy is an ass.

[cynatnite]

91. As an atheist, I can tell you that is a complete misunderstanding of atheism...

There is no evidence that supports a god or gods exist which is why I am an atheist. I will happily change my position once evidence is produced proving that a god or gods exist.

[Alduin]

94. +1

[Alduin]

96. Wait, what?

So atheists believe that we know everything?



There is so much to know on Earth, in the universe. We're just starting to scrape the surface of knowledge as we know it. We are nowhere near ready to know all.

We just don't see any evidence of any spiritual beings.

I think you need to read up on some Dawkins and Hitchens before coming into this discussion.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. Really?

Like what?

[rug]

64. Really.

Before we commence, is it your position that atheism cannot be mocked?

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Why don't you define Atheism, first.

I'll wait.

[rug]

70. The absence of belief in a god(s).

Now answer my question.

[Warren DeMontague]

72. Yes. I think that the absence of a belief in a god or gods, barring actual evidence

is damn hard to mock, at least for someone with a rational, scientific approach to reality.

[rug]

74. "damn hard" as in not possible.

I like to know where the bar is.

BTW, the definition says nothing about science. I always find conflation amusing.

[Warren DeMontague]

95. The scientific method is research and evidence-based.

And a good, scientific approach to reality is predicated upon

A) rational and fearless questioning, evidence based hypothesis and reasoning, and equal treatment of all assertions (as opposed to special treatment for "special" assertions)

and

B) non-attachment to particular or "pet" explanations of reality or phenomena, coupled with a willingness- an essential willingness- to discard or update those explanations or "maps" of reality as new data and evidence come in.



Someone shows up tomorrow with scientific proof of Jesus or "God", fine~ I'll believe it, in that case.

As for your first part, you want me to assert that it's "not possible" to mock Atheism? I'd wager it's possible to mock anything. Whether or not it will be an effective (subjective analysis, of course) mocking or a firmly grounded in logic mocking, is another story.

Also, I wouldn't assert that you "shouldn't" mock atheism or you "can't" mock Atheism (as in, not just it's impossible but you're not allowed to).... go for it, knock yourself out.

I'm just wondering what you'll come up with.

[sagat]

87. +1 support.

.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. "That which can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof"

I agree that its not helpful to be a dick about it, but im of the opinion that if people want to believe in incredulous or logically impossible shit, to live in a Pluralistic, open society they need to understand that sometimes other people will make fun of it.

And with a lot of this stuff, there is semantic nit picking and an element of emperor's new clothes-ness.

For instance, here is an example of an exchange that i see from time to time around here: (for the purpose of this example, i m using 2 hypothetical DU members, "numyum" and "glingybunger&quot

Numyum: "I am deeply offended that you referred to God as an 'invisible, unprovable man in the sky' "

Glingybunger: "this God, you speak of- can people see him?"

Numyum: "of course not"

Glingybunger: "can you prove the existence of this God?"

Numyum: "no. That is why we have faith"

Glingybunger: "that lords prayer, what are the first two words?"

Numyum: "our father"

Glingybunger: "which implies gender.. Okay, moving on, what are the next 4 words?"

Numyum: "who art in heaven"

Glingybunger: "and where is this heaven?"

Numyum: "according to the Bible, it is above"

Glingybunger: "okay. So according to you, you believe in an invisible, unprovable male entity (who created man in "his own image&quot who resides 'above' ... But if i say you believe in an invisible, unprovable man in the sky, it is offensive"

Numyum: "exactly."


Same with Romney. If he wears an undergarment that is supposed to confer supernatural protection or power, "magic underwear" isnt so far off the mark.

[truebrit71]

50. ^^^^This

[hifiguy]

58. "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof."

Carl Sagan

[Warren DeMontague]

60. That, too.

Of course he smoked TEH POT so what did he know.

[reformist2]

52. Mocking Mitt a little bit is OK. Don't mock so much that people start pitying him. ;)

[truebrit71]

54. I don't believe they give you super powers though do they?

...and trust me, there is PLENTY of funny material in that sham of a "religion" to make fun of...Now then, about the catholic church and THEIR magic beliefs.....

[Warren DeMontague]

59. According to wikipedia they are seen as "either symbolic or literal protection"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment

However, according to buzzfeed this "literal protection from the evils of the world" is not cuurently accepted minstream LDS doctrine, although it is anecdotaly believed by some.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mckaycoppins/a-brief-guide-to-mormon-underwear

[rug]

68. Tell me, what magic beliefs?

[whathehell]

77. Wow...Do you find any funny material in Judaism to mock?..What about Holy Hat Wear

in the form of the yarmulke?...Maybe those forelocks and stuff?...What about

the Magic Dietary Laws that forbid the eating of Pork and stuff?


It seems people are VERY selective in WHAT religions they mock here..

[X_Digger]

62. I give magic underwear the same respect I give to Mighty Morphin Zombie Jeebus..

.. sometimes he's dead, then he's alive.. sometimes he's the father, then the son, then the spirit..

Same diff.

[rug]

69. You have stumbled over the concept of Modalism.

I hope you didn't hurt yourself.

[REP]

79. AKA polytheism

[whathehell]

86. To some literal minded people, I suppose.

It's a matter of interpretation and, perhaps, the ability to think abstractly.

[rug]

88. Not at all. In fact it's an attempt to cast the Trinity in the mold of rogid monotheism.

It holds that the Father, Son and Spirit are but different forms of God, in contrast to the orthodox creed that they are three distinct persons in one God.

[AzDar]

84. Are your medals *mandated* by the Church?

Didn't think so. It's all about ridiculousness coupled with undue influence...

[Marrah_G]

85. Sure

I am an equal opportunity mocker

(I'm great at mocking myself as well)

[Autumn]

90. I pay taxes. Is magic underwear tax deductible? Kind of like tithes?

I also own a horse and I get no tax breaks. I used to be Catholic so I have a shit load of holy medals, but the church never told me I had to wear them. Now I'm wondering what the purpose of magic undies is? Now I'm wondering how much Mitt pays in taxes? Now I'm wondering why can't we make fun of everything the little brown make up wearer does? And I really don't like his stupid little wife, or his butt ass ugly sons.

In a death cage match what would win? His magic undies or my St.Micheal medal? But I do have holy candles for my Saints and I know they would burn his magic undies off his hairy little stiff ass.

[Kingofalldems]

93. I used to wear a St Christopher Medal, a Scapula and a Crucifix

[Spazito]

97. This OP is in violation of the Statement of Purpose for GD...

"Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports unless there is really big news. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU."

Please consider re-posting in the Meta forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1240

Thanks, Spazito, GD host