Romney's tax rate actually 9%

[edhopper]

He manipulated his return last year to pay at a higher rate than he would have so he could keep to his "at least 13%" statement.
His actual effective rate if he did his normal tax return would have been 9%, not 14.1%
AND HE WANTS TO LOWER HIS TAXES!!!!

http://www.americablog.com/2012/09/romney-disclosing-his-2011-tax-returns.html

[ProSense]

1. It's worse because "effective rate" doesn't

reveal if he paid federal income taxes.

[edhopper]

3. No "income tax"

it seems to all come from capital gains from carried interest.
A tax dodge Repugs put in to help Hedge Fund Managers.

[DevonRex]

37. This is what Reid is getting at.

His income all goes to offshore accounts.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

8. Effective rate normally relates to federal income tax

Income taxes paid/AGI

[edhopper]

10. capital gains

are not taxed the same as earned income. (half actually)
If Romney can call those who pay payroll tax "people who don't pay taxes" because they don't also pay income tax,
then I think we can do the same for those who only pay capital gains.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

14. Capital gains are paid as a type of income tax

So yes, they are considered income tax. And 47% of wage earners don't pay income tax. There are good reasons why they don't, of course, but it doesn't change the fact that it's true. Payroll taxes are not income taxes.

Personally, I don't subscribe to the notion that because Republicans are dishonest, Democrats get a pass to be dishonest too.

[ProSense]

16. Stop trying to spin this

There is a reason there are two different rates for income and capital gains. They are not the same thing.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

17. Not trying to spin anything

Are capital gains taxes paid as part of income taxes, on a 1040, or aren't they?

Of course they are. People fill out income tax returns, not capital gains returns. On the line that shows income tax liability, capital gains aren't broken out separately - it's all tossed into together, because it's all a tax on income that flows to general revenues.

I'm aware that you don't like it when anyone disagrees with you, but that's life, and you don't get to make up your own definitions.

[ProSense]

18. Are there two different rates?

"I'm aware that you don't like it when anyone disagrees with you, but that's life, and you don't get to make up your own definitions. "

That's really hilarious. Are you saying you like it when "anyone disagrees with you"?

Doesn't appear you're all that sick of the one percent.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

19. Yes, different rates for different types of income

I believe that all income should be taxed at the same rate, but just because it isn't doesn't mean that a) it isn't still income and b) the taxes aren't income taxes.

I have no problem with people that disagree with me, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just not their own facts.

I'm plenty sick of the one percent, but I don't think it's necessary to resort to lying to defeat them. I realize that you're accustomed to having most people at DU kiss your rear end, but I'm not one of those people. I don't like hypocrisy, whether it's being practiced by Republicans or Democrats.

[laundry_queen]

20. Okay...really?

"I realize that you're accustomed to having most people at DU kiss your rear end, but I'm not one of those people."

LMFAO, you must miss a lot of GD threads. That poster gets reamed regularly. I know it's a little OT but I believe in the 'facts' as well.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

21. Fair enough and touche'

Truthfully, I usually try to avoid the OPs threads, so I most likely do miss many responses to him (or her).

[edhopper]

24. ????

Didn't know I had haters.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

34. Nope, you don't, I misspoke

I meant ProSense, as I was thinking of another thread where he was the OP.

My apologies.

[edhopper]

35. No problem n/t

[ProSense]

22. That's nice

"I believe that all income should be taxed at the same rate, but just because it isn't doesn't mean that a) it isn't still income and b) the taxes aren't income taxes."

...that you believe that, but here's some information that may help to clear up your confusion.

Mitt Romney PwC Letter Is Meaningless, Reid Fires Back
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021392930

Hrrrmmmm (Mitt's tax return discrepancy alert)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021393299


There is still a chance Mitt paid no federal income tax in a given year.

[edhopper]

23. As a self employed worker

I pay a 10% FICA tax ON MY INCOME TAX FORM.
Does this make payroll tax the same as income tax because it is on my 1040?
If so, then many of those 47% pay income tax.
The 47% is bullshit, so why not use the same bullshit against Romney, to show how full of shit this whole non-tax payer discussion is.
In fact the total tax burden, as a percent of income, is not that much different for the working poor as it is for the wealthy.
THIS is what should be talked about.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

26. All I'm saying is to be consistent in the numbers

FICA is a payroll tax for a specific purpose. It isn't an income tax in the sense that it goes into general revenue to pay the nation's bills. The fact that you can deduct your self employment taxes from your gross income before calculating your income tax should make it obvious that it isn't a federal income tax.

Romney paid an effective rate of what, 13.something%? Yes, way too low.

But then people come here and say "I pay a higher effective rate", and then add in FICA tax, property tax, state income tax, etc., which is comparing apples to oranges.

[edhopper]

31. So do we know if any part of his 13%

was FICA?

Not apples and oranges.

The GOP and Romney have been saying that these 47% are moochers and don't contribute, when in reality they pay as much taxes as the wealthy.

You are so bogged down in precision that you really don't get

[SickOfTheOnePct]

32. Seeing as he isn't employed

I would doubt he paid FICA.

And no, the 47% aren't paying as much in taxes as the wealthy, nor should they be. I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but if you believe that people that are paying no federal income tax are paying as much as people that are paying federal income tax plus all the other taxes that everyone pays, then I don't know what else to say.

[edhopper]

38. Total tax burden

Not as disparate as you think.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/19/heres-why-the-47-percent-argument-is-an-abuse-of-tax-data/

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

[SickOfTheOnePct]

39. Most people would say that

almost twice the total tax burden (17.4% to 29%) is quite disparate.

And there's nothing wrong with that, but to say that the the 47% is paying more than the wealthy just isn't factually true, either in raw dollars or percentages.

[edhopper]

40. Who said more?

Certain individuals, yes.

But Again, this is about the right wing and Romney saying only half the people pay taxes. They keep saying "income tax' but the message is very clear;
That 47% of the people only take and think they are entitled.

THAT, my friend is the wrong fact!

And when you consider how little extra the working poor have, compared to the wealthy, who have places trillions on off shopre accounts,
The burden is very, very significant.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

41. Fair enough

You said "as much", which is also incorrect.

[MattBaggins]

30. Payroll taxes are income taxes

except to the ivory tower bean counters that want to wag their fingers at the average working class schmoe.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

36. No, they're not

Saying it over and over doesn't make it so.

[MattBaggins]

42. Yes they are. Saying it over again doesn't stop making it so

I get my paycheck. X dollars was taken out of it. I was taxed X dollars.

You can sit all day telling me grapefruits are not a citrus because they have "grape" in their name but I'm not buying.

[exboyfil]

2. He manipulated his charitable by not claiming all of it

To get that rate. I wonder if he can't submit an amended return after the election to take credit for the additional charitable deductions.

Also a word about charities. His 10% tithe (or if he gives more) to his church should not be viewed as total charity. Obviously him and everyone else who support their own religion gain a benefit from the church. I have it characterized as paying to have a counselor, entertainment, education, and social club for yourself and your family. Very little of it is used for traditional charity such as food, housing, etc.

Now the Mormon church does do some good work in providing for the needs of individuals, but it is incidental to the main function of the church (conversion). This is the same for almost every religious body.

Another aspect of charities are these foundations which are set up. They usually provide employment for the families for generations, and they send a message that I know how to take care of others better than the federal government and my desires will outlast me.

[PA Democrat]

4. He'll amend his tax return after he loses in November and take the

full charitable contribution deduction.

This is a desperate move and one that he can reverse after he loses.

[Maeve]

12. Be honest--he'd amend if he won, too! eom

[PA Democrat]

13. LOL. You're probably right.

[IggleDoer]

28. Can you see him screaming out on January 21, 2013 ...

... "MR. OBAMA, WHERE IS MY TAX REFUND?"

[nichomachus]

5. Oh dear

I don’t pay more than are legally due and frankly if I had paid more than are legally due I don’t think I’d be qualified to become president. I’d think people would want me to follow the law and pay only what the tax code requires. --Mitt Romney

Clearly, he's unqualified -- in his own words

[edhopper]

6. Do you have a link to that?

I want to use that elsewhere.

[nichomachus]

7. Yup

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/mitt-romney-paid-141-percent-tax-rate-2011/story?id=17291504#.UFzZl7SAzWY

[edhopper]

9. Thanks n/t

[libinnyandia]

29. He will "retroactively" pay lower taxes when he amends his return after the election.

[malaise]

11. In other words he was lying when he filed the estimate

and had things adjusted to validate his lying statement.

This fucker is a total scumbag - he cannot be President.

[Stuart G]

15. K and R nt. thanks for posting

[mojo2012]

25. It gets worse

If elected and he implements the Ryan Budget Plan, he would be paying even less than 9% !!!!!!

[geckosfeet]

27. Pingeon holeing all your income into the capital gains loophole is no small feat.

He has had a lot of practice.

And we have no idea how much and what kind of income is stashed out of the country.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

33. I hope that the IRS will AUDIT him now!